6:35 a.m.
Following is the list of topics that will be discussed in the FESCo
meeting today at 17:00UTC (1:00pm EST, 19:00 CEST) in #fedora-meeting on
irc.freenode.net.
Links to all tickets below can be found at:
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9
= Followups =
#topic #699 Proposal to remove the package "tzdata" from Critical Path
.fesco 699
#830 F18 Feature: ARM as Primary Arch --
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraARM
.fesco 830
= New business =
#829 New sponsor request: Pavel Alexeev (hubbitus)
.fesco 829
= Open Floor =
For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket. The
report of the agenda items can be found at
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9
If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
the open floor topic. Note that added topics may be deferred until
the following meeting.
1:16 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
kind of thing is done consistently?
Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary &
minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but an
*attachment* of the meetbot summary.
It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
1:19 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
kind of thing is done consistently?
We do.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process
Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement
with
an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary &
minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but an
*attachment* of the meetbot summary.
It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest.
I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself.
-J
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
--
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--
in your fear, seek only peace
in your fear, seek only love
-d. bowie
1:41 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:19 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson
<awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
>
> Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
> week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
> kind of thing is done consistently?
We do.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process
> Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
> an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
> the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary
&
> minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but an
> *attachment* of the meetbot summary.
>
> It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest.
I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself.
Heh.
The SOP does not, however, specify the correct topic for either email.
It provides a template for the 'announcement' mail, but no template for
the 'minutes' mail. It does not provide a link to an example of either
mail.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
1:48 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:19 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
> >
> > Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
> > week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
> > kind of thing is done consistently?
>
> We do.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process
>
> > Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
> > an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
> > the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary
&
> > minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but
an
> > *attachment* of the meetbot summary.
> >
> > It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest.
>
> I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself.
Heh.
The SOP does not, however, specify the correct topic for either email.
It provides a template for the 'announcement' mail, but no template for
the 'minutes' mail. It does not provide a link to an example of either
mail.
If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those issues.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html
-J
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
--
devel mailing list
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--
in your fear, seek only peace
in your fear, seek only love
-d. bowie
2:20 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:48 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Adam Williamson
<awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:19 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
>> > On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
>> >
>> > Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
>> > week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
>> > kind of thing is done consistently?
>>
>> We do.
>>
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process
>>
>> > Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
>> > an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
>> > the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be
"Summary &
>> > minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text
but an
>> > *attachment* of the meetbot summary.
>> >
>> > It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest.
>>
>> I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself.
>
> Heh.
>
> The SOP does not, however, specify the correct topic for either email.
> It provides a template for the 'announcement' mail, but no template for
> the 'minutes' mail. It does not provide a link to an example of either
> mail.
If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those issues.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html
I'd probably pick one which doesn't have an extra 'note' in the subject.
Never underestimate the idiocy of crowds. ;)
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
2:33 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:48 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 13:19 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> >> > On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
> >> > week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that
this
> >> > kind of thing is done consistently?
> >>
> >> We do.
> >>
> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FESCo_meeting_process
> >>
> >> > Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement
with
> >> > an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from
all
> >> > the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be
"Summary &
> >> > minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no
text but an
> >> > *attachment* of the meetbot summary.
> >> >
> >> > It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest.
> >>
> >> I suggest we all pay a bit better attention to it, including myself.
> >
> > Heh.
> >
> > The SOP does not, however, specify the correct topic for either email.
> > It provides a template for the 'announcement' mail, but no template for
> > the 'minutes' mail. It does not provide a link to an example of either
> > mail.
>
> If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those issues.
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html
I'd probably pick one which doesn't have an extra 'note' in the subject.
Never underestimate the idiocy of crowds. ;)
I put the subject in the template. :)
How about this one?
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-January/161463.html
-J
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
--
devel mailing list
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--
in your fear, seek only peace
in your fear, seek only love
-d. bowie
2:40 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 14:33 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>> If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page
to fix those issues.
>>
>> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html
>
> I'd probably pick one which doesn't have an extra 'note' in the
subject.
> Never underestimate the idiocy of crowds. ;)
I put the subject in the template. :)
How about this one?
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-January/161463.html
It has a rather different subject from the other one, doesn't it? =)
Really, either would be fine, I'm just nitpicking. Pick one and go with
it. Any template + specific requirement for subject line + example link
would be better than the present contents.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
3:02 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2012-03-27 at 14:33 -0500, Jon Ciesla wrote:
> >> If you think this is a good example, I'll edit the page to fix those
issues.
> >>
> >> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-March/163885.html
> >
> > I'd probably pick one which doesn't have an extra 'note' in the
subject.
> > Never underestimate the idiocy of crowds. ;)
>
> I put the subject in the template. :)
>
> How about this one?
>
> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-January/161463.html
It has a rather different subject from the other one, doesn't it? =)
Really, either would be fine, I'm just nitpicking. Pick one and go with
it. Any template + specific requirement for subject line + example link
would be better than the present contents.
Done. If this needs tweaking, let me know.
-J
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
--
devel mailing list
devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
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--
in your fear, seek only peace
in your fear, seek only love
-d. bowie
3:58 a.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On 03/27/2012 08:16 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
kind of thing is done consistently?
Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary&
minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but an
*attachment* of the meetbot summary.
It looks rather unprofessional, to be honest.
Last time I attached both log files as mentioned in SOP and the email
was waiting for admins approval for hours. Nothing is perfect ;-)
I'll add few notes into SOP for next time.
Marcela
7:29 a.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:16:30AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
kind of thing is done consistently?
Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary &
minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but an
*attachment* of the meetbot summary.
Sorry, but I really do not understand your problem. I have never had a
problem recognizing the "meeting notes" email. The same for parsing its
content. (Actually, I haven't even noticed that the subject is not
always the same...)
If it is really so important that the structure of that email is always
the same, without a sligthest variation, it should be sent directly by
the bot, without any human intervention. Period.
Or do we really need a policy/process/guideline for _everything_?
D.
8:12 a.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:29 PM, David Tardon <dtardon(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:16:30AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
>
> Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
> week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
> kind of thing is done consistently?
>
> Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
> an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
> the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary &
> minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but an
> *attachment* of the meetbot summary.
Sorry, but I really do not understand your problem. I have never had a
problem recognizing the "meeting notes" email. The same for parsing its
content. (Actually, I haven't even noticed that the subject is not
always the same...)
If it is really so important that the structure of that email is always
the same, without a sligthest variation, it should be sent directly by
the bot, without any human intervention. Period.
Having the bot send it makes a lot of sense actually. If it can be
automated then it should.
8:38 a.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On 03/30/2012 08:29 AM, David Tardon wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:16:30AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
>
> Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
> week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
> kind of thing is done consistently?
>
> Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
> an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
> the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary&
> minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but an
> *attachment* of the meetbot summary.
Sorry, but I really do not understand your problem. I have never had a
problem recognizing the "meeting notes" email. The same for parsing its
content. (Actually, I haven't even noticed that the subject is not
always the same...)
Presumably the problem is not identifying it when he sees it, but rather
searching for it as a reference. The former is easy; the latter isn't
necessarily, and consistency would go quite far to change that.
--
Peter
1:23 p.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 14:29 +0200, David Tardon wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:16:30AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-03-26 at 21:17 +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
>
> Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair each
> week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
> kind of thing is done consistently?
>
> Just in the last two weeks we've had a FESCo meeting announcement with
> an empty topic, and now a minutes post with a different subject from all
> the previous minutes posts (the 'standard' appears to be "Summary
&
> minutes for today's FESCo meeting (XXXX-XX-XX)") and with no text but an
> *attachment* of the meetbot summary.
Sorry, but I really do not understand your problem. I have never had a
problem recognizing the "meeting notes" email. The same for parsing its
content. (Actually, I haven't even noticed that the subject is not
always the same...)
If it is really so important that the structure of that email is always
the same, without a sligthest variation, it should be sent directly by
the bot, without any human intervention. Period.
If I want to quickly look through the results of all the FESCo meetings,
I just search for some word which should always show up in the topic of
those mails but rarely shows up in the topic of other mails. If there's
no process for sending the mail, I've no guarantee or reasonable
expectation I'll actually *find* all the mails this way. It's not about
'slightest variation(s)'. Remember one of the cases I cited was that an
announce got sent with no topic *at all*. How's anyone ever going to
find that one again?
Doing everything by bot is not always possible, if you want the summary
to have some kind of vaguely intelligent hand-editing. But if all you do
is copy/paste the bot summary, then sure, it would make sense just to
automate the process. Less chance of mistakes, saves everyone time.
Or do we really need a policy/process/guideline for _everything_?
I tend to find it's a good idea. It has lots of benefits and virtually
no drawbacks, except that someone has to find time to write it.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
1:25 a.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 11:23:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 14:29 +0200, David Tardon wrote:
> Or do we really need a policy/process/guideline for _everything_?
I tend to find it's a good idea. It has lots of benefits and virtually
no drawbacks, except that someone has to find time to write it.
And then everyone else has to read it and _remember_ it, which is IMHO
the main drawback. And because some/many will not, we are no better off
than before, except there is one policy more.
Note: I am not against policies in general, just against policies
regarding trivial matters. I _would_ check packaging guidelines before
submitting a new package for review. I _would not_ look at the current
e-mail sending policy (if there was one) before sending an e-mail to
fedora-devel. Actually, there is a good chance I would not even remember
there _was_ any e-mail sending policy...
D.
3:35 a.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 08:25 +0200, David Tardon wrote:
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 11:23:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 14:29 +0200, David Tardon wrote:
> > Or do we really need a policy/process/guideline for _everything_?
>
> I tend to find it's a good idea. It has lots of benefits and virtually
> no drawbacks, except that someone has to find time to write it.
And then everyone else has to read it and _remember_ it, which is IMHO
the main drawback. And because some/many will not, we are no better off
than before, except there is one policy more.
Note: I am not against policies in general, just against policies
regarding trivial matters. I _would_ check packaging guidelines before
submitting a new package for review. I _would not_ look at the current
e-mail sending policy (if there was one) before sending an e-mail to
fedora-devel. Actually, there is a good chance I would not even remember
there _was_ any e-mail sending policy...
well, there's obviously a line somewhere.
but frankly this particular example is, to me, an absolutely _ideal_
candidate for an SOP.
I mean, look, what is it fesco wants? They want a rotating chair. Which
effectively means that a single, fairly rote task - announce a meeting
is going to happen, chair the meeting, send out minutes from the meeting
- is going to be done so infrequently by such a large group of people
that no single one of them is likely to do it often enough to actually
remember exactly how it's done each time. which is going to lead to
small or large variances in procedure and all sorts of inadvertent
mistakes. It's not like meetings where the same person does it every
week and could do it with their eyes shut and their hands strapped to
their chair. Not that I have any experience of such things. Ahem.
I can't really think of a situation _better_ suited to an SOP. I mean,
on top of the above, FESCo membership *changes* all the time. What
better way is there to explain to a new FESCo member how to chair the
meeting for the first time than 'go read the SOP which explains exactly
how to chair the meeting'?
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora
http://www.happyassassin.net
4:41 a.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
Adam Williamson wrote:
I mean, look, what is it fesco wants? They want a rotating chair.
Which
effectively means that a single, fairly rote task - announce a meeting
is going to happen, chair the meeting, send out minutes from the meeting
- is going to be done so infrequently by such a large group of people
that no single one of them is likely to do it often enough to actually
remember exactly how it's done each time. which is going to lead to
small or large variances in procedure and all sorts of inadvertent
mistakes.
I think we need to coax one of the FESCo members into "volunteering" to do
this task systematically. One chair is how things worked back when I was in
FESCo and it worked much better. FESCo had other issues at that time, but
organization was not one of them.
Kevin Kofler
2:20 a.m.
New subject: Meeting minutes FESCo (2012-03-26)
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Could I suggest that, if FESCo is going to have a different chair
each
week, you at least have an SOP for arranging the meetings, so that this
kind of thing is done consistently?
And, if possible, include the meeting minutes list as the recipient as
well ? I find it useful to have a single list to which all the minutes
get directed and read through the updates. I am hoping that others may
find it useful too.
--
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>
4397
days inactive
4406
days old
18 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Adam Williamson -
David Tardon -
drago01 -
Jon Ciesla -
Kevin Kofler -
Marcela Mašláňová -
Peter Jones -
sankarshan