Re: [fedora-java] Headless JRE in Fedora

[Stanislav Ochotnicky]

Quoting Jiri Vanek (2013-10-21 18:45:46)
>  Hi all!
>  
>  With https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/java-1.7.0-openjdk-1.7.0.60-2.4.3...
> beeing stable, 
>  would like to make this more visible:
>  
>  The jdk in Fedora, being inspired in Debian, now supports headless version. During the
> life of F20 
>  (as in f21 all expected packages should be correctly headless)i would like to recommend
> all java 
>  packages maintainers, who do not need audio, or X or whatever (this is still "on
> QA" on our side) 
>  to swap theirs dependence to java-headless.
>  Alos, maintainers, please do not forget, that when you update your package, also packages
> you are 
>  depending on must become "just hedless dependent". Anyway - all libraries
> should be jut java-headless :)
>  
>  I would like to suggest especially wildFly and tomcat to try to migrate asap, as this
> change was 
>  designed for them :) 
They can't. Several reasons:

    * Packaging guidelines clearly state BR/R: java
    * Maven packages have automatically generated requires on java (or
      java-devel)

To *really* make use of java-headless few things need to happen:
    * guidelines have to be updated
    * java-packages have to be changed to R: java-headless by default
    * Maven packages are rebuilt
    * packages not built with maven are migrated manually
    * leaf applications make sure they have R: java

>  Btw - the update above is now somehow stuck - it not in testing, nor
> in updates. Maybe the relengs 
>  can help. 
If you need to get in touch with rel-engs file a ticket[1], don't CC their ML or
it's going to get lost

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/

-- 
Stanislav Ochotnicky <sochotnicky(a)redhat.com&gt;
Software Engineer - Developer Experience

PGP: 7B087241
Red Hat Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com

[fedora-java] Headless JRE in Fedora

[Jaroslav Reznik]

----- Original Message -----
>  Quoting Jiri Vanek (2013-10-21 18:45:46)
>  > Hi all!
>  > 
>  > With
>  > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/java-1.7.0-openjdk-1.7.0.60-2.4.3...
>  > beeing stable,
>  > would like to make this more visible:
>  > 
>  > The jdk in Fedora, being inspired in Debian, now supports headless version.
>  > During the life of F20
>  > (as in f21 all expected packages should be correctly headless)i would like
>  > to recommend all java
>  > packages maintainers, who do not need audio, or X or whatever (this is
>  > still "on QA" on our side)
>  > to swap theirs dependence to java-headless.
>  > Alos, maintainers, please do not forget, that when you update your package,
>  > also packages you are
>  > depending on must become "just hedless dependent". Anyway - all libraries
>  > should be jut java-headless :)
>  > 
>  > I would like to suggest especially wildFly and tomcat to try to migrate
>  > asap, as this change was
>  > designed for them :)
>  
>  They can't. Several reasons:
>  
>      * Packaging guidelines clearly state BR/R: java
>      * Maven packages have automatically generated requires on java (or
>        java-devel)
>  
>  To *really* make use of java-headless few things need to happen:
>      * guidelines have to be updated
>      * java-packages have to be changed to R: java-headless by default
>      * Maven packages are rebuilt
>      * packages not built with maven are migrated manually
>      * leaf applications make sure they have R: java 
For me, this sounds really as something System Wide Change should be created.
It's interesting Change from marketing POV, but requires quite a lot of
coordination across the distribution/project.

Jiri, please, take a look on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Policy
and cooperate with Java SIG on it.

Thanks
Jaroslav

>  > Btw - the update above is now somehow stuck - it not in testing,
> nor in
>  > updates. Maybe the relengs
>  > can help.
>  
>  If you need to get in touch with rel-engs file a ticket[1], don't CC their ML
>  or
>  it's going to get lost
>  
>  [1] https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/
>  
>  --
>  Stanislav Ochotnicky <sochotnicky(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Software Engineer - Developer Experience
>  
>  PGP: 7B087241
>  Red Hat Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com
>  
>  --
>  devel mailing list
>  devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
>  Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

[fedora-java] Headless JRE in Fedora

[Fernando Nasser]

Also, will this change be ackported into the Java packages of RHEL_5 and RHEL-6?

Our products use only one spec file, we'll have to add lots of %if <osversion>
in our spec files (and we have 300+ of them).


----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Stanislav Ochotnicky"
> <sochotnicky(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: "Jiri Vanek" <jvanek(a)redhat.com&gt;, devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Cc: java-devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 5:08:01 AM
>  Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Headless JRE in Fedora
>  
>  Quoting Jiri Vanek (2013-10-21 18:45:46)
>  > Hi all!
>  > 
>  > With
>  > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/java-1.7.0-openjdk-1.7.0.60-2.4.3...
>  > beeing stable,
>  > would like to make this more visible:
>  > 
>  > The jdk in Fedora, being inspired in Debian, now supports headless
>  > version. During the life of F20
>  > (as in f21 all expected packages should be correctly headless)i
>  > would like to recommend all java
>  > packages maintainers, who do not need audio, or X or whatever (this
>  > is still "on QA" on our side)
>  > to swap theirs dependence to java-headless.
>  > Alos, maintainers, please do not forget, that when you update your
>  > package, also packages you are
>  > depending on must become "just hedless dependent". Anyway - all
>  > libraries should be jut java-headless :)
>  > 
>  > I would like to suggest especially wildFly and tomcat to try to
>  > migrate asap, as this change was
>  > designed for them :)
>  
>  They can't. Several reasons:
>  
>      * Packaging guidelines clearly state BR/R: java
>      * Maven packages have automatically generated requires on java
>      (or
>        java-devel)
>  
>  To *really* make use of java-headless few things need to happen:
>      * guidelines have to be updated
>      * java-packages have to be changed to R: java-headless by default
>      * Maven packages are rebuilt
>      * packages not built with maven are migrated manually
>      * leaf applications make sure they have R: java
>  
>  > Btw - the update above is now somehow stuck - it not in testing,
>  > nor in updates. Maybe the relengs
>  > can help.
>  
>  If you need to get in touch with rel-engs file a ticket[1], don't CC
>  their ML or
>  it's going to get lost
>  
>  [1] https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/
>  
>  --
>  Stanislav Ochotnicky <sochotnicky(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Software Engineer - Developer Experience
>  
>  PGP: 7B087241
>  Red Hat Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com
>  
>  --
>  devel mailing list
>  devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
>  Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct

[fedora-java] Headless JRE in Fedora

[Stanislav Ochotnicky]

Quoting Fernando Nasser (2013-10-24 16:06:27)
>  Also, will this change be ackported into the Java packages of RHEL_5
> and RHEL-6? 
Doesn't matter. Fedora != RHEL

>  Our products use only one spec file, we'll have to add lots of
> %if <osversion>
>  in our spec files (and we have 300+ of them). 
Well then you can still require "java" and not make use of this split in your
products. You will be pulling in a lot of unneeded cruft but it's going to work
just like it has worked for years...

-- 
Stanislav Ochotnicky <sochotnicky(a)redhat.com&gt;
Software Engineer - Developer Experience

PGP: 7B087241
Red Hat Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com

[fedora-java] Headless JRE in Fedora

[Florian Weimer]

On 10/24/2013 04:19 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote:
>  Quoting Fernando Nasser (2013-10-24 16:06:27)
> > Also, will this change be ackported into the Java packages of RHEL_5 and RHEL-6?
>
>  Doesn't matter. Fedora != RHEL 
I think we need a solution for EPEL, though.  Either we can ship the 
non-split packages with adequate provides in RHEL, or there should be 
some RPM macro that expands to the proper dependency.  It's probably not 
a good idea to have every package to cook up its own solution.

-- 
Florian Weimer / Red Hat Product Security Team

[fedora-java] Headless JRE in Fedora

[Stanislav Ochotnicky]

Quoting Florian Weimer (2013-10-28 14:42:47)
>  On 10/24/2013 04:19 PM, Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote:
>  > Quoting Fernando Nasser (2013-10-24 16:06:27)
>  >> Also, will this change be ackported into the Java packages of RHEL_5 and
> RHEL-6?
>  >
>  > Doesn't matter. Fedora != RHEL
>  
>  I think we need a solution for EPEL, though.  Either we can ship the 
>  non-split packages with adequate provides in RHEL, or there should be 
>  some RPM macro that expands to the proper dependency.  It's probably not 
>  a good idea to have every package to cook up its own solution. 
EPEL contains small number of Java packages. I believe complicating hundreds
of packages in Fedora for something like this would be an extremely bad idea.
If we have to live with small incompatibility for a few years, so be it. But
long term, we'll have a nice clean Java packaging. Moreover It only affects
rpms/specs from F21+ that would like to be installed on EL5/6 

For what it's worth even most current Java packages are not compatible even with
EL6 due to automatic requires handling and other changes.

-- 
Stanislav Ochotnicky <sochotnicky(a)redhat.com&gt;
Software Engineer - Developer Experience

PGP: 7B087241
Red Hat Inc.                               http://cz.redhat.com