Wiki https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6
This is a proposed Change for Fedora Linux. This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
== Summary == KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode.
== Owner == * Name: [[User:Ngompa|Neal Gompa]], [[User:Marcdeop|Marc Deop]], [[User:Justinz|Justin Zobel]], [[User:Siosm|Timothy Ravier]], [[User:Tdawson|Troy Dawson]], [[User:Jgrulich|Jan Grulich]] * Email: ngompa13@gmail.com, marcdeop@fedoraproject.org, justin.zobel@gmail.com, travier@redhat.com, tdawson@redhat.com, jgrulich@redhat.com
== Detailed Description == KDE Plasma 6 is a new major version of the user experience environment from the KDE community. It includes both desktop and mobile environments. While there are some user experience improvements over KDE Plasma 5, the majority of the work is under the hood. Notably, the whole stack is now built on Qt 6. Qt 6 brings significant upgrades to QML and Qt Quick as well as support for Vulkan (in addition to OpenGL and OpenGL ES support introduced in Qt 5).
[https://pointieststick.com/2023/09/06/september-plasma-6-update/ KDE Plasma 6.0 is expected to release in early February 2024]. The frameworks (KDE Frameworks), shells (Plasma Desktop and Plasma Mobile), and applications (KDE Gear) [https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-devel/2023-September/002008.html are all expected to be ported to Qt 6 as part of the KDE Plasma 6 release]. However, some applications may not make it in time and will be updated later.
This upgrade is also notable that for Fedora Linux (and Fedora Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux 10, once that materializes), KDE Plasma will '''not''' offer an X11 session. Fedora KDE has been fully Wayland by default from login ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForSDDM|since Fedora Linux 38]]) to desktop ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma|since Fedora Linux 34]]), and the SIG is confident in the quality and development around the Plasma Wayland experience to stand fully behind it.
== Feedback ==
==== Why drop the X11 session? ====
Three reasons for this removal:
* [https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/9/htm... The Xorg server is deprecated since RHEL 9.0] and will be dropped in "a future major RHEL release". * Graphics fallback modes are Wayland-friendly now with [[Changes/ReplaceFbdevDrivers|SimpleDRM enabled since Fedora Linux 36]]. * NVIDIA drivers (since v495~v515) support GBM for Wayland instead of EGLStreams. Wayland is fully supported on current NVIDIA drivers.
This will drastically reduce our support burden and give us the ability to focus on quality for the KDE Plasma stack and continue our feature-forward nature. The Fedora KDE SIG will maintain a single code stream for all supported distribution targets (Fedora Linux 40+, Fedora Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux 10+).
This also does not mean that X11 applications will not work in Plasma 6, as we will still support Xwayland for running X11 applications on Plasma Wayland.
==== Could we keep Plasma 5 for X11? ====
No. The KDE Plasma stack is fairly large and comprehensive. The SIG does not have the resources to maintain the KDE Plasma 5 stack beyond the lifetime of upstream's focus. It would also be fairly complex to do so, requiring a lot of downstream patching to resolve the conflicts between Plasma 5 and Plasma 6. The intent upstream is that KDE Plasma 5 will be EOL shortly after the release of KDE Plasma 6, so it would be very difficult to support ourselves.
==== Will Plasma 6 be available for older Fedora and EPEL releases? ====
No. This major version upgrade is not getting backported. Some portions (KDE Frameworks and KDE Gear) may get backported as part of regular upgrades if Qt 5-based versions are not maintained upstream, but the Plasma Desktop and Plasma Mobile software will not. Notably, KDE Plasma 5 for older Fedora Linux releases (and Fedora Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux 9) are on Plasma 5.27 and will stay there.
== Benefit to Fedora == KDE Plasma is a very popular platform used as the basis for the Fedora KDE Spin, Fedora Kinoite, and the flagship Fedora Asahi Remix experiences. By bringing KDE Plasma 6 into Fedora, we demonstrate our leadership and commitment to bring the latest and greatest technologies from the KDE community to the world.
== Scope == * Proposal owners: ** Import Plasma 6 stack into F40/Rawhide (tracked as [https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG/issue/383 pagureio#fedora-kde/SIG#383]) *** Ensure <code>kwin-x11</code> is obsoleted by <code>kwin-wayland</code> *** Ensure <code>plasma-workspace-x11</code> is obsoleted by <code>plasma-workspace-wayland</code> ** Modify select KDE Frameworks 5 packages to be co-installable with KDE Frameworks 6 [https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Plasma_6#Coinstallability per upstream guidance]. ** Enable tracking the Plasma 6 stack in ELN for branching to EPEL 10 once CentOS Stream 10 is available.
* Other developers: ** Optional: Packagers with software that can choose to build against either Qt 5 or Qt 6 should make the switch to Qt 6. Community maintenance of Qt 5 will be drastically reduced once KDE Plasma 6 is released.
* Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/11669 #11669]
* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Alignment with Community Initiatives: N/A
== Upgrade/compatibility impact == Fedora Linux users using Plasma X11 upgrading to Plasma 6 will find themselves switched to Plasma Wayland automatically as the X11 session will no longer be available. The KDE SIG strives to ensure the upgrade path is smooth for all users. Configuration files will be migrated automatically after first login to Plasma 6.
== How To Test ==
A COPR with pre-release versions of Plasma 6 will be available from the KDE SIG in the near future. At the moment, we have a [https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/g/kdesig/kde-nightly-qt6/ KDE Plasma 6 nightly COPR] containing snapshot builds in various states. It is strongly advised that testing is done in a non-production environment using a Fedora spin that doesn't include and use KDE Frameworks at all (such as [https://fedoraproject.org/spins/budgie/ the Fedora Budgie Spin]) as the packages are unstable and are not co-installable with any Qt5+KF5 based environment at all.
Once packages are integrated into Rawhide, users should grab [https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/nightlies.html nightly composes] of the Fedora KDE Spin and Fedora Kinoite to try it out.
== User Experience == The user experience provided by KDE Plasma 6 will not be significantly different from what users expect from KDE Plasma 5. The main change will be the removal of the X11 session, as everyone will be transitioned to the Wayland experience.
== Dependencies == Plasma 6 depends most notably on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 packages. Qt 6 is already available in Fedora Linux, and KDE Frameworks 6 is in the process of being imported.
== Contingency Plan == * Contingency mechanism: KDE SIG will roll back the Plasma Desktop and Plasma Mobile packages to KDE Plasma 5. Doing so will require epoch bumps across the stack. * Contingency deadline: Beta freeze * Blocks release? Yes
== Documentation == There is not yet upstream release notes for Plasma 6.0, as it is not released yet. * [https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Plasma_6 Developer documentation tracking progress on Plasma 6.0]
== Release Notes == Fedora Linux now ships KDE Plasma 6.0, a new major version of the KDE user experience from the KDE community. As part of this change, KDE Plasma on Fedora Linux runs on the Wayland display technology. X11 applications are still supported on KDE Plasma.
The discussion thread to provide feedback for this change proposal can be found here https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-syst... _______________________________________________ devel-announce mailing list -- devel-announce@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-announce-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-announce@lists.fedorapro... Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
On 9/13/23 11:53 AM, Aoife Moloney wrote:
== Summary == KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode.
I'm more than a bit concerned about dropping X11. I am the packager for KiCad on Fedora. The upstream KiCad team has stated [1] that they won't support Wayland issues unless they can be recreated on X11, meaning that I'll be left with no way to support the Fedora KiCad packages.
For convenience, here is the relevant part of the KiCad position:
It is known that KiCad does not work well under Wayland. There are a number of known issues with wxWidgets and Wayland. See the wxWidgets bug tracker for details [2]. KiCad requests the XWayland compatibility layer when starting, however this is an emulation mode and issues arising while using this mode need to be recreated under X11 before they will be addressed. At the moment, Wayland has no support for cursor warping, which means that the KiCad features of centering the cursor when zooming, and continuously panning the canvas, are broken on Wayland systems.
Steve
[1] https://www.kicad.org/help/known-system-related-issues/ [2] https://github.com/wxWidgets/wxWidgets/labels/Wayland
On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 12:12 PM Steven A. Falco stevenfalco@gmail.com wrote:
On 9/13/23 11:53 AM, Aoife Moloney wrote:
== Summary == KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode.
I'm more than a bit concerned about dropping X11. I am the packager for KiCad on Fedora. The upstream KiCad team has stated [1] that they won't support Wayland issues unless they can be recreated on X11, meaning that I'll be left with no way to support the Fedora KiCad packages.
For convenience, here is the relevant part of the KiCad position:
It is known that KiCad does not work well under Wayland. There are a number of known issues with wxWidgets and Wayland. See the wxWidgets bug tracker for details [2]. KiCad requests the XWayland compatibility layer when starting, however this is an emulation mode and issues arising while using this mode need to be recreated under X11 before they will be addressed. At the moment, Wayland has no support for cursor warping, which means that the KiCad features of centering the cursor when zooming, and continuously panning the canvas, are broken on Wayland systems.
It looks like the cursor warping is supported in all major compositors with the cursor-constraints protocol: https://wayland.app/protocols/pointer-constraints-unstable-v1
Beyond that, I think it's probably a good idea to get a bug filed with KDE upstream to get this tracked and figured out with the wxWidgets folks. Of all the folks involved in the Wayland protocols development, they are by far the easiest to work with.
There's also a Matrix room about KDE Wayland stuff if you would like to talk to developers directly about these things: https://matrix.to/#/#kde-wayland-goal:kde.org
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
W dniu 13.09.2023 o 17:53, Aoife Moloney pisze:
== Summary == KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode.
Which leaves us with "Numpad shortcuts don't work in wayland sessions" bug in KDE/Wayland:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=453423
Someone in KDE decided to treat KEY_KP1 ("1" on numpad part of pc105 keyboard) in same way as KEY_1 ("1" on alphanumeric part of pc105 keyboard). Which breaks several setups where people use shortcuts with numpad keys (for me it is Meta+KP[1-9] to organize windows).
This bug is one of reasons I am still on KDE/X11 rather than KDE/Wayland.
Other reasons are:
1. Zoom meeting app which is unable to share Wayland windows 2. RSIBreak app is unable to track activity
Il 15/09/23 11:25, Marcin Juszkiewicz ha scritto:
W dniu 13.09.2023 o 17:53, Aoife Moloney pisze:
== Summary == KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode.
Which leaves us with "Numpad shortcuts don't work in wayland sessions" bug in KDE/Wayland:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=453423
Someone in KDE decided to treat KEY_KP1 ("1" on numpad part of pc105 keyboard) in same way as KEY_1 ("1" on alphanumeric part of pc105 keyboard). Which breaks several setups where people use shortcuts with numpad keys (for me it is Meta+KP[1-9] to organize windows).
This bug is one of reasons I am still on KDE/X11 rather than KDE/Wayland.
Interesting, see also what I reported about the decimal separator from the numpad not honouring the locale setting:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2215739 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449706 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143540
So the whole numpad in kde-wayland doesn't work as expected. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem anyone cares because "can be worked around by using the other key". Hopefully, when everyone will be forced to Wayland and start reporting broken things, someone will look at that.
Mattia
On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:54 PM Aoife Moloney amoloney@redhat.com wrote:
== Summary == KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode.
For me, the biggest blocker for switching to Wayland is the lack of session restore support (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=436318). I have a bunch of text editor and file browser windows permanently open across several activities and losing the layout after every reboot would be a big productivity killer for me.
This is even listed right at the top of the showstoppers list on the KDE wiki: https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers
Please don't remove X11 support until this is fixed (implemented) :(
On Wed Sep 13, 2023 at 16:53 +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
This upgrade is also notable that for Fedora Linux (and Fedora Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux 10, once that materializes), KDE Plasma will '''not''' offer an X11 session. Fedora KDE has been fully Wayland by default from login ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForSDDM|since Fedora Linux 38]]) to desktop ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma|since Fedora Linux 34]]), and the SIG is confident in the quality and development around the Plasma Wayland experience to stand fully behind it.
== Feedback ==
==== Why drop the X11 session? ====
Three reasons for this removal:
The Xorg server is deprecated since RHEL 9.0] and will be dropped in "a future major RHEL release".
- Graphics fallback modes are Wayland-friendly now with
[[Changes/ReplaceFbdevDrivers|SimpleDRM enabled since Fedora Linux 36]].
- NVIDIA drivers (since v495~v515) support GBM for Wayland instead of
EGLStreams. Wayland is fully supported on current NVIDIA drivers.
This will drastically reduce our support burden and give us the ability to focus on quality for the KDE Plasma stack and continue our feature-forward nature. The Fedora KDE SIG will maintain a single code stream for all supported distribution targets (Fedora Linux 40+, Fedora Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux 10+).
This also does not mean that X11 applications will not work in Plasma 6, as we will still support Xwayland for running X11 applications on Plasma Wayland.
My laptop with NVIDIA Optimus graphics cannot connect to an external monitor unless I log in to the X11 session. This is a known problem [1]. Please don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Making Wayland the default and even removing X11 from the default installation is one thing, but entirely removing it does not make sense to me. Some people still have niche usecases that do not work with Wayland. We can iterate on the Wayland session without breaking users.
Also, I do not like that this is tied together to the Plasma 6 change. Nobody is actually talking about the subject of the change, KDE Plasma 6; most of the conversation is about dropping X11 which was tacked on to this Change. It would be better as a separate Change with a separate discussion, IMO.
[1] https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers
Maxwell G wrote:
Also, I do not like that this is tied together to the Plasma 6 change. Nobody is actually talking about the subject of the change, KDE Plasma 6; most of the conversation is about dropping X11 which was tacked on to this Change. It would be better as a separate Change with a separate discussion, IMO.
+1
This looks to me a lot like a typical political maneuver, sneaking an undesirable change into an otherwise desirable larger one in an attempt to get the undesirable part through with less resistance.
Kevin Kofler
On Tue Sep 26, 2023 at 13:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Maxwell G wrote:
Also, I do not like that this is tied together to the Plasma 6 change. Nobody is actually talking about the subject of the change, KDE Plasma 6; most of the conversation is about dropping X11 which was tacked on to this Change. It would be better as a separate Change with a separate discussion, IMO.
+1
This looks to me a lot like a typical political maneuver, sneaking an undesirable change into an otherwise desirable larger one in an attempt to get the undesirable part through with less resistance.
I am not suggesting that there is malicious intent here. Even if I do not agree with it, the Change owners did justify their reasoning for doing this.
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 12:06 PM Maxwell G maxwell@gtmx.me wrote:
On Tue Sep 26, 2023 at 13:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Maxwell G wrote:
Also, I do not like that this is tied together to the Plasma 6 change. Nobody is actually talking about the subject of the change, KDE Plasma 6; most of the conversation is about dropping X11 which was tacked on to this Change. It would be better as a separate Change with a separate discussion, IMO.
+1
This looks to me a lot like a typical political maneuver, sneaking an undesirable change into an otherwise desirable larger one in an attempt to get the undesirable part through with less resistance.
I am not suggesting that there is malicious intent here. Even if I do not agree with it, the Change owners did justify their reasoning for doing this.
Indeed. And I added further detail to the Change document about why we're doing it now instead of later[1].
To summarize: there's no such thing as a "good" time to do it, and the SIG feels that doing it at the Plasma 6.0 major version upgrade allows us to reset expectations, as users are used to major versions being significantly different than their predecessors. Otherwise, we have to do it sometime later in the middle of the Plasma 6.x lifetime, which was much less appealing.
The discussion on this thread has been mostly quite helpful, and has allowed me to provide feedback to KDE developers on prioritizing things for Plasma 6 development[2].
[1]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6#Why_drop_the_X11_session... [2]: https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-devel/2023-September/002047.html
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
Neal Gompa wrote:
To summarize: there's no such thing as a "good" time to do it, and the SIG feels that doing it at the Plasma 6.0 major version upgrade allows us to reset expectations, as users are used to major versions being significantly different than their predecessors. Otherwise, we have to do it sometime later in the middle of the Plasma 6.x lifetime, which was much less appealing.
I doubt Wayland will be a fully functional replacement for X11 even by the time Plasma 7 will be released. Surely not in the 6.x lifetime.
The discussion on this thread has been mostly quite helpful, and has allowed me to provide feedback to KDE developers on prioritizing things for Plasma 6 development[2].
Unfortunately, you are only cherry-picking individual issues people have found with Wayland (and it is very unlikely they will all be addressed in time for F40, as some are quite fundamental and/or require several separate codebases to be updated in lockstep) and completely ignoring the general opposition to dropping X11 to begin with.
Kevin Kofler
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Aoife Moloney -
Kevin Kofler -
Marcin Juszkiewicz -
Mattia Verga -
Maxwell G -
Neal Gompa -
Ondrej Mosnáček -
Steven A. Falco