Re: OT: nVidia driver [was: Wish list] -- nVidia doesn't own a lot of the IP

[Bryan Smith]

From: Paul Iadonisi <pri.rhl4(a)iadonisi.to&gt;
>  If I saw nVidia and ATI maybe actively participating in the
> antitrust
>  case against Microsoft in the EU 
Oh don't even go there.  Anti-trust is just another word for "everyone
ganging up on a competitor."  It typically solves *0* of the actual
community issues, but only competitor ones.  I think the results of the
US trial -- both during the Clinton and Bush administrations -- show
that it only addressed competitor issues, not standards-based ones.

And you can be sure the EU lawsuit is more about trade than standards
too.  After all, HP and Red Hat donate massive amounts of IP and real
GPL software to Linux -- in far excess of EU corporations, yet they are
being "lumped in" with IBM as exploiting Linux in recent, so-called
"reports."  That _really_ exposed with what the EU is doing.

I think the epitome of this can be seen in Boeing v. Airbus and the WTO.

In other words, I don't believe any federated organization of states has
any interest in standards and other community-focused endeavors -- at
least it's very small compared to fiscally-aligned interests of its
member corporations.  Case-in-point:  Who was the Senator that really
got the DOJ v. MS going and what state was he from?  ;->

>  and joining NoSoftwarePatents.com then I'd be willing to cut them
> some
>  slack. 
Patents aren't bad.  Patents on _common_ideas_ are bad.  What we need to
do is lobby for a massive reduction in patents, and 10x the scrutiny,
instead of this "organ grinder" system we have.

The US has a massive patent system that's out of control.  At the same
time, the US continues to be the incubator of countless technologies --
especially in the medical field.  Disrespect for IP is why medicine are
dis-proportionally expensive in this country, because no one else shares
the IP burden but Americans.  But without that return, there would not
be the research.

I have no argument that Microsoft is the _least_ innovative and the
_most_ IP sucking company in the world.  But just because of companies
like Microsoft doesn't mean all companies are "bad."

>  And take a stand against the current patent system in the US. 
I think nVidia and SGI has done a lot of good for OpenGL in the past.
You should read up on their donations.

>  That goes for any other company that is in this kind of mess.
>  Otherwise, they are just playing the victims. 
I do agree with you on companies like Red Hat trying to form "grass
roots" efforts with other, _ethical_ companies to address this.

>  Or perhaps it isn't them painting *themselves* as victims.  But
> if they
>  expended the resources necessary to *change* this mess more than in
>  their cloistered little worlds (with the resulting limited effect) then
>  maybe we'd get somewhere. 
Unfortunately, if one company does that, they just get taken advantage
of by the other companies.  Which is why we should support endeavors
like Red Hat's.  It could change the face of the landscape.

Your points are noted.  However, I don't believe in the current trend of
federated litigation and abolishment of all software patents.  Anything
forced by a federated body smells like ... well, I don't want to say
it.  ;->

Community-based efforts by _choice_, like Red Hat's current efforts, are
the best way.

-- 
Bryan J. Smith                                     b.j.smith(a)ieee.org 
--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
It is mathematically impossible for someone who makes more than you
to be anything but richer than you.  Any tax rate that penalizes them
will also penalize you similarly (to those below you, and then below
them).  Linear algebra, let alone differential calculus or even ele-
mentary concepts of limits, is mutually exclusive with US journalism.
So forget even attempting to explain how tax cuts work.  ;->

OT: nVidia driver [was: Wish list] -- nVidia doesn't own a lot of the IP

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

On Fri, 2005-06-10 at 21:33 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
>  > and joining NoSoftwarePatents.com then I'd be willing to cut
> them some
>  > slack.
>  
>  Patents aren't bad.  Patents on _common_ideas_ are bad.  What we need to
>  do is lobby for a massive reduction in patents, and 10x the scrutiny,
>  instead of this "organ grinder" system we have. 
He's not talking about patents in general but software patents.
All software patents are bad, and virtually all software patents are
patents on _common_ideas_

Feel free to be the first to draw the line in the sand from whereupon
it's a common idea or not. Nobody was ever able to clearly define that,
so what you say is very nice in principle, but unfeasible in practice.

But this is getting more and more off-topic.

Rui

-- 
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

Please AVOID sending me WORD, EXCEL or POWERPOINT attachments.
See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

OT: nVidia driver [was: Wish list] -- nVidia doesn't own a lot of the IP

[Alan Cox]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2005 at 09:33:01PM -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
>  Oh don't even go there.  Anti-trust is just another word for
> "everyone
>  ganging up on a competitor."  It typically solves *0* of the actual 
Actually its a formally defined legal process to preserve free market behaviour
and prevent massive abuse of the citizenship, riots, war and the other
unpleasantries that follow when society isn't working.

How well it works is a different matter.


>  too.  After all, HP and Red Hat donate massive amounts of IP and
> real
>  GPL software to Linux -- in far excess of EU corporations, yet they are 
The EU people I've talked to don't think thats the case interestingly. They
will point at SuSE, at KDE, (the fact Gnome is more European than US has
eluded them so far) and numerous other projects in the EU.

>  Patents aren't bad.  Patents on _common_ideas_ are bad.  What we
> need to 
So you want patents on books, movies, and other literary works (software is
a literary work remember...)

>  I think nVidia and SGI has done a lot of good for OpenGL in the
> past.
>  You should read up on their donations. 
But nVidia and friends are how markets are supposed to work, or something like
it. Innovation, competition and price battles - and at times co-operation. No
different to any other market.

>  Your points are noted.  However, I don't believe in the current
> trend of
>  federated litigation and abolishment of all software patents.  Anything
>  forced by a federated body smells like ... well, I don't want to say
>  it.  ;-> 
Ah yes. Rights to justice, drinking water, not to be shot without a trial 
(except if you look foreign) ... 

Alan