F38 proposal: Noto CJK Variable Fonts (Self-Contained Change proposal)

[Ben Cotton]

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Noto_CJK_Variable_Fonts

This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.

== Summary ==
Switch the default Noto CJK fonts for Chinese, Japanese and Korean
from static to variable fonts.

== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:pwu| Peng Wu]]
* Email: [e-mail]

== Detailed Description ==
In order to reduce the font size in Noto CJK fonts, we plan to switch
to use the variable fonts by default.

# Split the google-noto-cjk-fonts package into
google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts, and
provide the variable fonts in google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts and
google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts.
# Drop several sub packages which are not installed by default from
the google-noto-cjk-fonts package.
## Like google-noto-sans-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-sans-*-fonts,
google-noto-sans-mono-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-serif-cjk-*-fonts and
google-noto-serif-*-fonts
# Install the Noto CJK Variable Fonts by default.

Fedora Copr for testing: https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/pwu/noto-cjk/

== Feedback ==

== Benefit to Fedora ==
The variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live image
size compared to the static fonts.

{| class="wikitable"
|+ RPM Size
|-
!  Size (bytes) !! Noto Sans CJK !! Noto Serif CJK
|-
| Static Fonts || 130674365 || 181621033
|-
| Variable Fonts || 64613100 || 56924710
|}

== Scope ==
* Proposal owners:
** Package four font packages for Noto CJK fonts
** Retire google-noto-cjk-fonts in Fedora rawhide
** Switch to install variable fonts by default in fedora-comps and langpacks
** Submit pull request to lorax templates to use
google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts in the boot.iso

* Other developers:

* Release engineering:
* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Alignment with Objectives:

== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==

When upgrade, the variable fonts will be installed by default.

== How To Test ==

* Please upgrade to Fedora 38 or rawhide to get the latest fonts
* Install the variable fonts: google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts and
google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts
** Check the google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts and
google-noto-serif-cjk-ttc-fonts packages are replaced
* Then use CJK locales to check if the new fonts have any problem

== User Experience ==

This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live image size.

== Dependencies ==

== Contingency Plan ==

* Contingency mechanism: Use the static fonts by default -
google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts
* Contingency deadline: N/A
* Blocks release? N/A

== Documentation ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)

== Release Notes ==

This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live image size.

Hi,

Seems that some changes mentioned below just hit
fedora:fedora/38/x86_64/testing/silverblue today in version
38.20230314.0. And ostree diff is below (changes between 38.20230313.0
and 38.20230314.0, filtered to show only fontconfig files for CJK):

D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc.conf
D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-cjk-fonts.conf
D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-
ttc.conf
D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-cjk-fonts.conf
A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts.conf
A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-vf-fonts.conf
A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts.conf
A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
fonts.conf
A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-vf-
fonts.conf
A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
fonts.conf

But I am noticing some font being very thin, including English fonts in
Evince when not using embed fonts and all non-UI text in Telegram (both
Evince and Telegram is installed from flatpak).

I don't know if this should be considered as a bug from this change or
just several applications not being compatible with VF fonts and should
be reported to their upstream separately.

Cheers,
Qiyu Yan

---
This is an example of a random PDF file not being rendered correctly:
https://texdoc.org/serve/latexmk/0

Firefox can correctly render fonts with different weight while Evince
will produce equal-weight result.

在 2023-01-09星期一的 13:28 -0500，Ben Cotton写道：
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Noto_CJK_Variable_Fonts
>
> This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
> process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
> community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if
> approved
> by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
>
> == Summary ==
> Switch the default Noto CJK fonts for Chinese, Japanese and Korean
> from static to variable fonts.
>
> == Owner ==
> Name: [[User:pwu| Peng Wu]]
> Email: [e-mail]
>
> == Detailed Description ==
> In order to reduce the font size in Noto CJK fonts, we plan to switch
> to use the variable fonts by default.
>
> # Split the google-noto-cjk-fonts package into
> google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts, and
> provide the variable fonts in google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts and
> google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts.
> # Drop several sub packages which are not installed by default from
> the google-noto-cjk-fonts package.
> ## Like google-noto-sans-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-sans-*-fonts,
> google-noto-sans-mono-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-serif-cjk-*-fonts and
> google-noto-serif-*-fonts
> # Install the Noto CJK Variable Fonts by default.
>
> Fedora Copr for testing:
> https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/pwu/noto-cjk/
>
> == Feedback ==
>
> == Benefit to Fedora ==
> The variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live image
> size compared to the static fonts.
>
> {| class="wikitable"
> > RPM Size
>
> !  Size (bytes) !! Noto Sans CJK !! Noto Serif CJK
> > Static Fonts || 130674365 || 181621033
> >
> > Variable Fonts || 64613100 || 56924710
> > }
>
> == Scope ==
> Proposal owners:
>
> ** Package four font packages for Noto CJK fonts
> ** Retire google-noto-cjk-fonts in Fedora rawhide
> ** Switch to install variable fonts by default in fedora-comps and
> langpacks
> ** Submit pull request to lorax templates to use
> google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts in the boot.iso
>
> Other developers:
>
> Release engineering:
>
> Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
>
> Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
>
> Alignment with Objectives:
>
> == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
>
> When upgrade, the variable fonts will be installed by default.
>
> == How To Test ==
> Please upgrade to Fedora 38 or rawhide to get the latest fonts
> Install the variable fonts: google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts and
>
> google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts
> ** Check the google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts and
> google-noto-serif-cjk-ttc-fonts packages are replaced
> Then use CJK locales to check if the new fonts have any problem
>
> == User Experience ==
>
> This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live
> image size.
>
> == Dependencies ==
>
> == Contingency Plan ==
> Contingency mechanism: Use the static fonts by default -
>
> google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts
> Contingency deadline: N/A
> Blocks release? N/A
>
> == Documentation ==
> N/A (not a System Wide Change)
>
> == Release Notes ==
>
> This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live
> image size.
>
> -- 
> Ben Cotton
> He / Him / His
> Fedora Program Manager
> Red Hat
> TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> Do not reply to spam, report it:
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

[Akira TAGOH]

Thank you for the feedback.

What if you install google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts instead of
google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts?
just wanted to make sure if this is a variable font-related issue or
design-related update in Noto CJK.
Also, good to try on non-flatpak app too. it is a bit complicated to
make sure if they use the expected fonts.
The best way may be to check it out on pango-view and hb-view.

On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:58 PM  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Seems that some changes mentioned below just hit
> fedora:fedora/38/x86_64/testing/silverblue today in version
> 38.20230314.0. And ostree diff is below (changes between 38.20230313.0
> and 38.20230314.0, filtered to show only fontconfig files for CJK):
>
> D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc.conf
> D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-cjk-fonts.conf
> D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-
> ttc.conf
> D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-cjk-fonts.conf
> A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts.conf
> A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-vf-fonts.conf
> A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts.conf
> A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> fonts.conf
> A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-vf-
> fonts.conf
> A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> fonts.conf
>
> But I am noticing some font being very thin, including English fonts in
> Evince when not using embed fonts and all non-UI text in Telegram (both
> Evince and Telegram is installed from flatpak).
>
> I don't know if this should be considered as a bug from this change or
> just several applications not being compatible with VF fonts and should
> be reported to their upstream separately.
>
> Cheers,
> Qiyu Yan
>
> This is an example of a random PDF file not being rendered correctly:
> https://texdoc.org/serve/latexmk/0
>
> Firefox can correctly render fonts with different weight while Evince
> will produce equal-weight result.
>
> 在 2023-01-09星期一的 13:28 -0500，Ben Cotton写道：
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Noto_CJK_Variable_Fonts
> >
> > This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
> > process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
> > community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if
> > approved
> > by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
> >
> > == Summary ==
> > Switch the default Noto CJK fonts for Chinese, Japanese and Korean
> > from static to variable fonts.
> >
> > == Owner ==
> > Name: [[User:pwu| Peng Wu]]
> > Email: [e-mail]
> >
> > == Detailed Description ==
> > In order to reduce the font size in Noto CJK fonts, we plan to switch
> > to use the variable fonts by default.
> >
> > # Split the google-noto-cjk-fonts package into
> > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts, and
> > provide the variable fonts in google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts and
> > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts.
> > # Drop several sub packages which are not installed by default from
> > the google-noto-cjk-fonts package.
> > ## Like google-noto-sans-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-sans-*-fonts,
> > google-noto-sans-mono-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-serif-cjk-*-fonts and
> > google-noto-serif-*-fonts
> > # Install the Noto CJK Variable Fonts by default.
> >
> > Fedora Copr for testing:
> > https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/pwu/noto-cjk/
> >
> > == Feedback ==
> >
> > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> > The variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live image
> > size compared to the static fonts.
> >
> > {| class="wikitable"
> > > RPM Size
> >
> > !  Size (bytes) !! Noto Sans CJK !! Noto Serif CJK
> > > Static Fonts || 130674365 || 181621033
> > >
> > > Variable Fonts || 64613100 || 56924710
> > > }
> >
> > == Scope ==
> > Proposal owners:
> >
> > ** Package four font packages for Noto CJK fonts
> > ** Retire google-noto-cjk-fonts in Fedora rawhide
> > ** Switch to install variable fonts by default in fedora-comps and
> > langpacks
> > ** Submit pull request to lorax templates to use
> > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts in the boot.iso
> >
> > Other developers:
> >
> > Release engineering:
> >
> > Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> >
> > Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> >
> > Alignment with Objectives:
> >
> > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> >
> > When upgrade, the variable fonts will be installed by default.
> >
> > == How To Test ==
> > Please upgrade to Fedora 38 or rawhide to get the latest fonts
> > Install the variable fonts: google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts and
> >
> > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts
> > ** Check the google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts and
> > google-noto-serif-cjk-ttc-fonts packages are replaced
> > Then use CJK locales to check if the new fonts have any problem
> >
> > == User Experience ==
> >
> > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live
> > image size.
> >
> > == Dependencies ==
> >
> > == Contingency Plan ==
> > Contingency mechanism: Use the static fonts by default -
> >
> > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts
> > Contingency deadline: N/A
> > Blocks release? N/A
> >
> > == Documentation ==
> > N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> >
> > == Release Notes ==
> >
> > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and live
> > image size.
> >
> > --
> > Ben Cotton
> > He / Him / His
> > Fedora Program Manager
> > Red Hat
> > TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>
> devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

With some layering package trick, yes, all behavior returned to before.
after the swap.

Also, at least for Evince it can tell me what font it is using, and in
this case it's google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts or VF version.

在 2023-03-14星期二的 23:14 +0900，Akira TAGOH写道：
> > Thank you for the feedback.
> >
> > What if you install google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts instead of
> > google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts?
> > just wanted to make sure if this is a variable font-related issue
> > or
> > design-related update in Noto CJK.
> > Also, good to try on non-flatpak app too. it is a bit complicated
> > to
> > make sure if they use the expected fonts.
> > The best way may be to check it out on pango-view and hb-view.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:58 PM  wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Seems that some changes mentioned below just hit
> > > > fedora:fedora/38/x86_64/testing/silverblue today in version
> > > > 38.20230314.0. And ostree diff is below (changes between
> > > > 38.20230313.0
> > > > and 38.20230314.0, filtered to show only fontconfig files for
> > > > CJK):
> > > >
> > > > D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc.conf
> > > > D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-cjk-fonts.conf
> > > > D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-sans-
> > > > cjk-
> > > > ttc.conf
> > > > D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-cjk-
> > > > fonts.conf
> > > > A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > fonts.conf
> > > > A   
> > > > /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-vf-
> > > > fonts.conf
> > > > A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > fonts.conf
> > > > A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-sans-
> > > > cjk-vf-
> > > > fonts.conf
> > > > A   
> > > > /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-
> > > > vf-
> > > > fonts.conf
> > > > A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-
> > > > vf-
> > > > fonts.conf
> > > >
> > > > But I am noticing some font being very thin, including English
> > > > fonts in
> > > > Evince when not using embed fonts and all non-UI text in
> > > > Telegram
> > > > (both
> > > > Evince and Telegram is installed from flatpak).
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if this should be considered as a bug from this
> > > > change
> > > > or
> > > > just several applications not being compatible with VF fonts
> > > > and
> > > > should
> > > > be reported to their upstream separately.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Qiyu Yan
> > > >
> > > > This is an example of a random PDF file not being rendered
> > > > correctly:
> > > > https://texdoc.org/serve/latexmk/0
> > > >
> > > > Firefox can correctly render fonts with different weight while
> > > > Evince
> > > > will produce equal-weight result.
> > > >
> > > > 在 2023-01-09星期一的 13:28 -0500，Ben Cotton写道：
> > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Noto_CJK_Variable_Fonts
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the
> > > > > > Changes
> > > > > > process, proposals are publicly announced in order to
> > > > > > receive
> > > > > > community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > approved
> > > > > > by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Summary ==
> > > > > > Switch the default Noto CJK fonts for Chinese, Japanese and
> > > > > > Korean
> > > > > > from static to variable fonts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Owner ==
> > > > > > Name: [[User:pwu| Peng Wu]]
> > > > > > Email: [e-mail]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Detailed Description ==
> > > > > > In order to reduce the font size in Noto CJK fonts, we plan
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > switch
> > > > > > to use the variable fonts by default.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > # Split the google-noto-cjk-fonts package into
> > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > provide the variable fonts in google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts.
> > > > > > # Drop several sub packages which are not installed by
> > > > > > default
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > the google-noto-cjk-fonts package.
> > > > > > ## Like google-noto-sans-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-sans-*-
> > > > > > fonts,
> > > > > > google-noto-sans-mono-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-serif-cjk-*-
> > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > google-noto-serif-*-fonts
> > > > > > # Install the Noto CJK Variable Fonts by default.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fedora Copr for testing:
> > > > > > https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/pwu/noto-cjk/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Feedback ==
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> > > > > > The variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and
> > > > > > live
> > > > > > image
> > > > > > size compared to the static fonts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > {| class="wikitable"
> > > > > > > > + RPM Size
> > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > !  Size (bytes) !! Noto Sans CJK !! Noto Serif CJK
> > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > Static Fonts || 130674365 || 181621033
> > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > Variable Fonts || 64613100 || 56924710
> > > > > > > > }
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Scope ==
> > > > > > Proposal owners:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ** Package four font packages for Noto CJK fonts
> > > > > > ** Retire google-noto-cjk-fonts in Fedora rawhide
> > > > > > ** Switch to install variable fonts by default in fedora-
> > > > > > comps
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > langpacks
> > > > > > ** Submit pull request to lorax templates to use
> > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts in the boot.iso
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Other developers:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Release engineering:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alignment with Objectives:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When upgrade, the variable fonts will be installed by
> > > > > > default.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == How To Test ==
> > > > > > Please upgrade to Fedora 38 or rawhide to get the latest
> > > > > >
> > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > Install the variable fonts: google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts
> > > > > > ** Check the google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts and
> > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-ttc-fonts packages are replaced
> > > > > > Then use CJK locales to check if the new fonts have any
> > > > > >
> > > > > > problem
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == User Experience ==
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage
> > > > > > and live
> > > > > > image size.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Dependencies ==
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Contingency Plan ==
> > > > > > Contingency mechanism: Use the static fonts by default -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts
> > > > > > Contingency deadline: N/A
> > > > > > Blocks release? N/A
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Documentation ==
> > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > == Release Notes ==
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage
> > > > > > and live
> > > > > > image size.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Ben Cotton
> > > > > > He / Him / His
> > > > > > Fedora Program Manager
> > > > > > Red Hat
> > > > > > TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > > > List Archives:
> > > > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> > > >
> > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > List Archives:
> > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> >
> > -- 
> > Akira TAGOH
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

[Akira TAGOH]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 11:44 PM  wrote:
> With some layering package trick, yes, all behavior returned to before.
> after the swap.

Aha. Thank you for testing. Hmm, that is interesting...
> Also, at least for Evince it can tell me what font it is using, and in
> this case it's google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts or VF version.

I mean we may have different version of Noto CJK fonts on host and
flatpak runtime - I don't know if they have though. that is quite
difficult to see on apps which one it is.
> 在 2023-03-14星期二的 23:14 +0900，Akira TAGOH写道：
> > > Thank you for the feedback.
> > >
> > > What if you install google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts instead of
> > > google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts?
> > > just wanted to make sure if this is a variable font-related issue
> > > or
> > > design-related update in Noto CJK.
> > > Also, good to try on non-flatpak app too. it is a bit complicated
> > > to
> > > make sure if they use the expected fonts.
> > > The best way may be to check it out on pango-view and hb-view.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:58 PM  wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Seems that some changes mentioned below just hit
> > > > > fedora:fedora/38/x86_64/testing/silverblue today in version
> > > > > 38.20230314.0. And ostree diff is below (changes between
> > > > > 38.20230313.0
> > > > > and 38.20230314.0, filtered to show only fontconfig files for
> > > > > CJK):
> > > > >
> > > > > D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc.conf
> > > > > D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-cjk-fonts.conf
> > > > > D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-sans-
> > > > > cjk-
> > > > > ttc.conf
> > > > > D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-cjk-
> > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > A
> > > > > /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-vf-
> > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-sans-
> > > > > cjk-vf-
> > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > A
> > > > > /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-
> > > > > vf-
> > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-
> > > > > vf-
> > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > >
> > > > > But I am noticing some font being very thin, including English
> > > > > fonts in
> > > > > Evince when not using embed fonts and all non-UI text in
> > > > > Telegram
> > > > > (both
> > > > > Evince and Telegram is installed from flatpak).
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know if this should be considered as a bug from this
> > > > > change
> > > > > or
> > > > > just several applications not being compatible with VF fonts
> > > > > and
> > > > > should
> > > > > be reported to their upstream separately.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Qiyu Yan
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an example of a random PDF file not being rendered
> > > > > correctly:
> > > > > https://texdoc.org/serve/latexmk/0
> > > > >
> > > > > Firefox can correctly render fonts with different weight while
> > > > > Evince
> > > > > will produce equal-weight result.
> > > > >
> > > > > 在 2023-01-09星期一的 13:28 -0500，Ben Cotton写道：
> > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Noto_CJK_Variable_Fonts
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the
> > > > > > > Changes
> > > > > > > process, proposals are publicly announced in order to
> > > > > > > receive
> > > > > > > community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > approved
> > > > > > > by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Summary ==
> > > > > > > Switch the default Noto CJK fonts for Chinese, Japanese and
> > > > > > > Korean
> > > > > > > from static to variable fonts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Owner ==
> > > > > > > * Name: [[User:pwu| Peng Wu]]
> > > > > > > * Email: [e-mail]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Detailed Description ==
> > > > > > > In order to reduce the font size in Noto CJK fonts, we plan
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > switch
> > > > > > > to use the variable fonts by default.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > # Split the google-noto-cjk-fonts package into
> > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > provide the variable fonts in google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts.
> > > > > > > # Drop several sub packages which are not installed by
> > > > > > > default
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > the google-noto-cjk-fonts package.
> > > > > > > ## Like google-noto-sans-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-sans-*-
> > > > > > > fonts,
> > > > > > > google-noto-sans-mono-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-serif-cjk-*-
> > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > google-noto-serif-*-fonts
> > > > > > > # Install the Noto CJK Variable Fonts by default.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fedora Copr for testing:
> > > > > > > https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/pwu/noto-cjk/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Feedback ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> > > > > > > The variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and
> > > > > > > live
> > > > > > > image
> > > > > > > size compared to the static fonts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > {| class="wikitable"
> > > > > > > > > + RPM Size
> > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > !  Size (bytes) !! Noto Sans CJK !! Noto Serif CJK
> > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > Static Fonts || 130674365 || 181621033
> > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > Variable Fonts || 64613100 || 56924710
> > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Scope ==
> > > > > > > * Proposal owners:
> > > > > > > ** Package four font packages for Noto CJK fonts
> > > > > > > ** Retire google-noto-cjk-fonts in Fedora rawhide
> > > > > > > ** Switch to install variable fonts by default in fedora-
> > > > > > > comps
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > langpacks
> > > > > > > ** Submit pull request to lorax templates to use
> > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts in the boot.iso
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Other developers:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Release engineering:
> > > > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > > > * Alignment with Objectives:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When upgrade, the variable fonts will be installed by
> > > > > > > default.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == How To Test ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Please upgrade to Fedora 38 or rawhide to get the latest
> > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > * Install the variable fonts: google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts
> > > > > > > ** Check the google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts and
> > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-ttc-fonts packages are replaced
> > > > > > > * Then use CJK locales to check if the new fonts have any
> > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == User Experience ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage
> > > > > > > and live
> > > > > > > image size.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Dependencies ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Contingency Plan ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Contingency mechanism: Use the static fonts by default -
> > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-fonts
> > > > > > > * Contingency deadline: N/A
> > > > > > > * Blocks release? N/A
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Documentation ==
> > > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > == Release Notes ==
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage
> > > > > > > and live
> > > > > > > image size.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Ben Cotton
> > > > > > > He / Him / His
> > > > > > > Fedora Program Manager
> > > > > > > Red Hat
> > > > > > > TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > > > > List Archives:
> > > > > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> > > > >
> > > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > > List Archives:
> > > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> > >
> > > --
> > > Akira TAGOH
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > List Guidelines:
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > List Archives:
> > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>
> devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue

在 2023-03-15星期三的 00:08 +0900，Akira TAGOH写道：
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 11:44 PM  wrote:
> > With some layering package trick, yes, all behavior returned to
> > before.
> > after the swap.
>
> Aha. Thank you for testing. Hmm, that is interesting...
> > Also, at least for Evince it can tell me what font it is using, and
> > in
> > this case it's google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts or VF version.
>
> I mean we may have different version of Noto CJK fonts on host and
> flatpak runtime - I don't know if they have though. that is quite
> difficult to see on apps which one it is.

At least for Evince it is using fonts from host since it refer to paths
like /run/host/whatever

And also during the swap, there was a stage where no google noto CJK
fonts are installed (removed one and have not installed the other) and
in that case Evince is giving tofu for the document even no CJK
character is present there. But Telegram is giving tofo only for CJK
characters and normal result for non-CJK words. (Also, when with VF
fonts, Telegram is also giving proper-weight fonts for non-CJK
characters.
> > 在 2023-03-14星期二的 23:14 +0900，Akira TAGOH写道：
> > > > Thank you for the feedback.
> > > >
> > > > What if you install google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts instead of
> > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts?
> > > > just wanted to make sure if this is a variable font-related
> > > > issue
> > > > or
> > > > design-related update in Noto CJK.
> > > > Also, good to try on non-flatpak app too. it is a bit
> > > > complicated
> > > > to
> > > > make sure if they use the expected fonts.
> > > > The best way may be to check it out on pango-view and hb-view.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:58 PM 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seems that some changes mentioned below just hit
> > > > > > fedora:fedora/38/x86_64/testing/silverblue today in version
> > > > > > 38.20230314.0. And ostree diff is below (changes between
> > > > > > 38.20230313.0
> > > > > > and 38.20230314.0, filtered to show only fontconfig files
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > CJK):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-
> > > > > > ttc.conf
> > > > > > D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-cjk-fonts.conf
> > > > > > D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-
> > > > > > sans-
> > > > > > cjk-
> > > > > > ttc.conf
> > > > > > D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-cjk-
> > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > A
> > > > > > /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-vf-
> > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-
> > > > > > sans-
> > > > > > cjk-vf-
> > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > A
> > > > > > /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-
> > > > > > mono-
> > > > > > vf-
> > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-
> > > > > > cjk-
> > > > > > vf-
> > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I am noticing some font being very thin, including
> > > > > > English
> > > > > > fonts in
> > > > > > Evince when not using embed fonts and all non-UI text in
> > > > > > Telegram
> > > > > > (both
> > > > > > Evince and Telegram is installed from flatpak).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know if this should be considered as a bug from
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > change
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > just several applications not being compatible with VF
> > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > be reported to their upstream separately.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > Qiyu Yan
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is an example of a random PDF file not being rendered
> > > > > > correctly:
> > > > > > https://texdoc.org/serve/latexmk/0
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Firefox can correctly render fonts with different weight
> > > > > > while
> > > > > > Evince
> > > > > > will produce equal-weight result.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 在 2023-01-09星期一的 13:28 -0500，Ben Cotton写道：
> > > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Noto_CJK_Variable_Fonts
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > This document represents a proposed Change. As part of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Changes
> > > > > > > > process, proposals are publicly announced in order to
> > > > > > > > receive
> > > > > > > > community feedback. This proposal will only be
> > > > > > > > implemented
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > approved
> > > > > > > > by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Summary ==
> > > > > > > > Switch the default Noto CJK fonts for Chinese, Japanese
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > Korean
> > > > > > > > from static to variable fonts.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Owner ==
> > > > > > > > * Name: [[User:pwu| Peng Wu]]
> > > > > > > > * Email: [e-mail]
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Detailed Description ==
> > > > > > > > In order to reduce the font size in Noto CJK fonts, we
> > > > > > > > plan
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > switch
> > > > > > > > to use the variable fonts by default.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > # Split the google-noto-cjk-fonts package into
> > > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-
> > > > > > > > fonts,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > provide the variable fonts in google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts.
> > > > > > > > # Drop several sub packages which are not installed by
> > > > > > > > default
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > the google-noto-cjk-fonts package.
> > > > > > > > ## Like google-noto-sans-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-sans-
> > > > > > > > *-
> > > > > > > > fonts,
> > > > > > > > google-noto-sans-mono-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-serif-
> > > > > > > > cjk-*-
> > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > google-noto-serif-*-fonts
> > > > > > > > # Install the Noto CJK Variable Fonts by default.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Fedora Copr for testing:
> > > > > > > > https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/pwu/noto-cjk/
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Feedback ==
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> > > > > > > > The variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and
> > > > > > > > live
> > > > > > > > image
> > > > > > > > size compared to the static fonts.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > {| class="wikitable"
> > > > > > > > > > + RPM Size
> > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > !  Size (bytes) !! Noto Sans CJK !! Noto Serif CJK
> > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > Static Fonts || 130674365 || 181621033
> > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > Variable Fonts || 64613100 || 56924710
> > > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Scope ==
> > > > > > > > * Proposal owners:
> > > > > > > > ** Package four font packages for Noto CJK fonts
> > > > > > > > ** Retire google-noto-cjk-fonts in Fedora rawhide
> > > > > > > > ** Switch to install variable fonts by default in
> > > > > > > > fedora-
> > > > > > > > comps
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > langpacks
> > > > > > > > ** Submit pull request to lorax templates to use
> > > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts in the boot.iso
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > * Other developers:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > * Release engineering:
> > > > > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this
> > > > > > > > Change)
> > > > > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > > > > * Alignment with Objectives:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > When upgrade, the variable fonts will be installed by
> > > > > > > > default.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == How To Test ==
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > * Please upgrade to Fedora 38 or rawhide to get the
> > > > > > > > latest
> > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > * Install the variable fonts: google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts
> > > > > > > > ** Check the google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts and
> > > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-ttc-fonts packages are replaced
> > > > > > > > * Then use CJK locales to check if the new fonts have
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == User Experience ==
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space
> > > > > > > > usage
> > > > > > > > and live
> > > > > > > > image size.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Dependencies ==
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Contingency Plan ==
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > * Contingency mechanism: Use the static fonts by
> > > > > > > > default -
> > > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-
> > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > * Contingency deadline: N/A
> > > > > > > > * Blocks release? N/A
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Documentation ==
> > > > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > == Release Notes ==
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space
> > > > > > > > usage
> > > > > > > > and live
> > > > > > > > image size.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Ben Cotton
> > > > > > > > He / Him / His
> > > > > > > > Fedora Program Manager
> > > > > > > > Red Hat
> > > > > > > > TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > > > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > > > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > > > > > List Archives:
> > > > > > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > > > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > > > List Archives:
> > > > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Akira TAGOH
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > List Archives:
> > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> >
> > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>
> -- 
> Akira TAGOH
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
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[Akira TAGOH]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:37 AM  wrote:
> At least for Evince it is using fonts from host since it refer to paths
> like /run/host/whatever
>
> And also during the swap, there was a stage where no google noto CJK
> fonts are installed (removed one and have not installed the other) and
> in that case Evince is giving tofu for the document even no CJK
> character is present there. But Telegram is giving tofo only for CJK
> characters and normal result for non-CJK words. (Also, when with VF
> fonts, Telegram is also giving proper-weight fonts for non-CJK
> characters.

Alright. Can you please file a bug for that against google-noto-cjk-fonts?

Thanks,
> > > 在 2023-03-14星期二的 23:14 +0900，Akira TAGOH写道：
> > > > > Thank you for the feedback.
> > > > >
> > > > > What if you install google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts instead of
> > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-fonts?
> > > > > just wanted to make sure if this is a variable font-related
> > > > > issue
> > > > > or
> > > > > design-related update in Noto CJK.
> > > > > Also, good to try on non-flatpak app too. it is a bit
> > > > > complicated
> > > > > to
> > > > > make sure if they use the expected fonts.
> > > > > The best way may be to check it out on pango-view and hb-view.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:58 PM 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seems that some changes mentioned below just hit
> > > > > > > fedora:fedora/38/x86_64/testing/silverblue today in version
> > > > > > > 38.20230314.0. And ostree diff is below (changes between
> > > > > > > 38.20230313.0
> > > > > > > and 38.20230314.0, filtered to show only fontconfig files
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > CJK):
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-
> > > > > > > ttc.conf
> > > > > > > D    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-cjk-fonts.conf
> > > > > > > D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-
> > > > > > > sans-
> > > > > > > cjk-
> > > > > > > ttc.conf
> > > > > > > D    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-cjk-
> > > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > > A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-0-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > > A
> > > > > > > /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-mono-vf-
> > > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > > A    /usr/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > > A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-0-google-noto-
> > > > > > > sans-
> > > > > > > cjk-vf-
> > > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > > A
> > > > > > > /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-cjk-
> > > > > > > mono-
> > > > > > > vf-
> > > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > > A    /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/65-google-noto-sans-
> > > > > > > cjk-
> > > > > > > vf-
> > > > > > > fonts.conf
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But I am noticing some font being very thin, including
> > > > > > > English
> > > > > > > fonts in
> > > > > > > Evince when not using embed fonts and all non-UI text in
> > > > > > > Telegram
> > > > > > > (both
> > > > > > > Evince and Telegram is installed from flatpak).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't know if this should be considered as a bug from
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > just several applications not being compatible with VF
> > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be reported to their upstream separately.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > Qiyu Yan
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---
> > > > > > > This is an example of a random PDF file not being rendered
> > > > > > > correctly:
> > > > > > > https://texdoc.org/serve/latexmk/0
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Firefox can correctly render fonts with different weight
> > > > > > > while
> > > > > > > Evince
> > > > > > > will produce equal-weight result.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 在 2023-01-09星期一的 13:28 -0500，Ben Cotton写道：
> > > > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Noto_CJK_Variable_Fonts
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This document represents a proposed Change. As part of
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Changes
> > > > > > > > > process, proposals are publicly announced in order to
> > > > > > > > > receive
> > > > > > > > > community feedback. This proposal will only be
> > > > > > > > > implemented
> > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > approved
> > > > > > > > > by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Summary ==
> > > > > > > > > Switch the default Noto CJK fonts for Chinese, Japanese
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > Korean
> > > > > > > > > from static to variable fonts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Owner ==
> > > > > > > > > * Name: [[User:pwu| Peng Wu]]
> > > > > > > > > * Email: [e-mail]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Detailed Description ==
> > > > > > > > > In order to reduce the font size in Noto CJK fonts, we
> > > > > > > > > plan
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > switch
> > > > > > > > > to use the variable fonts by default.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > # Split the google-noto-cjk-fonts package into
> > > > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-
> > > > > > > > > fonts,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > provide the variable fonts in google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts.
> > > > > > > > > # Drop several sub packages which are not installed by
> > > > > > > > > default
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > the google-noto-cjk-fonts package.
> > > > > > > > > ## Like google-noto-sans-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-sans-
> > > > > > > > > *-
> > > > > > > > > fonts,
> > > > > > > > > google-noto-sans-mono-cjk-*-fonts, google-noto-serif-
> > > > > > > > > cjk-*-
> > > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > google-noto-serif-*-fonts
> > > > > > > > > # Install the Noto CJK Variable Fonts by default.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Fedora Copr for testing:
> > > > > > > > > https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/pwu/noto-cjk/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Feedback ==
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora ==
> > > > > > > > > The variable fonts will reduce the disk space usage and
> > > > > > > > > live
> > > > > > > > > image
> > > > > > > > > size compared to the static fonts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > {| class="wikitable"
> > > > > > > > > > > + RPM Size
> > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > !  Size (bytes) !! Noto Sans CJK !! Noto Serif CJK
> > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > Static Fonts || 130674365 || 181621033
> > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > Variable Fonts || 64613100 || 56924710
> > > > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Scope ==
> > > > > > > > > * Proposal owners:
> > > > > > > > > ** Package four font packages for Noto CJK fonts
> > > > > > > > > ** Retire google-noto-cjk-fonts in Fedora rawhide
> > > > > > > > > ** Switch to install variable fonts by default in
> > > > > > > > > fedora-
> > > > > > > > > comps
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > langpacks
> > > > > > > > > ** Submit pull request to lorax templates to use
> > > > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts in the boot.iso
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > * Other developers:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > * Release engineering:
> > > > > > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this
> > > > > > > > > Change)
> > > > > > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> > > > > > > > > * Alignment with Objectives:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When upgrade, the variable fonts will be installed by
> > > > > > > > > default.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == How To Test ==
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > * Please upgrade to Fedora 38 or rawhide to get the
> > > > > > > > > latest
> > > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > > * Install the variable fonts: google-noto-sans-cjk-vf-
> > > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-vf-fonts
> > > > > > > > > ** Check the google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts and
> > > > > > > > > google-noto-serif-cjk-ttc-fonts packages are replaced
> > > > > > > > > * Then use CJK locales to check if the new fonts have
> > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == User Experience ==
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space
> > > > > > > > > usage
> > > > > > > > > and live
> > > > > > > > > image size.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Dependencies ==
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Contingency Plan ==
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > * Contingency mechanism: Use the static fonts by
> > > > > > > > > default -
> > > > > > > > > google-noto-sans-cjk-fonts and google-noto-serif-cjk-
> > > > > > > > > fonts
> > > > > > > > > * Contingency deadline: N/A
> > > > > > > > > * Blocks release? N/A
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Documentation ==
> > > > > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > == Release Notes ==
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This new variable fonts will reduce the disk space
> > > > > > > > > usage
> > > > > > > > > and live
> > > > > > > > > image size.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Ben Cotton
> > > > > > > > > He / Him / His
> > > > > > > > > Fedora Program Manager
> > > > > > > > > Red Hat
> > > > > > > > > TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > > > > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > > > > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > > > > > > List Archives:
> > > > > > > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > > > > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > > > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > > > > List Archives:
> > > > > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Akira TAGOH
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > > > List Guidelines:
> > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > > > List Archives:
> > > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> > >
> > > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > > List Guidelines:
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > > List Archives:
> > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
> >
> > --
> > Akira TAGOH
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>
> devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
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