Fedora 31 Self-Contained Change proposal: Simply reclaim disk space in Anaconda

[Ben Cotton]

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Anaconda_Reclaim_Disk_Space

== Summary ==
The installer shows the Resize Disk Space dialog to reclaim disk space
for the automatic partitioning in the graphical user interface. The
Anaconda team would like to replace this dialog with a simple list of
predefined choices.

== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:Vponcova| Vendula Poncova]]
* Email: vponcova(a)redhat.com


== Detailed Description ==
The installer shows the Resize Disk Space dialog to reclaim disk space
for the automatic partitioning in the graphical user interface. The
Anaconda team would like to replace this dialog with the following
list of choices:

* Use all disk space
* Use free space available for use
* Replace existing Linux system(s)
* Shrink or remove existing partitions

The first three options will redirect users to the Installation
Summary screen. The automatic partitioning will be configured based on
the selected action.

The last option will redirect users to the Manual Partitioning screen.
Users can shrink or remove existing partitions, automatically create
new partitions and leave the screen.

The Manual Partitioning screen supports all actions of the Resize Disk
Space dialog, so it doesn't make sense to have two user interfaces
with the same functionality.

== Benefit to Fedora ==
Simple predefined choices should improve the user experience for
users, who are not interested in shrinking or removing specific
partitions. Beginners can use all or free disk space without other
interaction. Advanced users can quickly reinstall their systems and
virtual machines.

== Scope ==
* Proposal owners: Implement the new dialog window for the graphical
user interface. The support for the dialog actions is already
implemented for the text user interface and kickstart installations.
It is a very small and isolated change.
* Other developers: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
* Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)

== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)

== How To Test ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)

== User Experience ==
During the Fedora installation, it will be easier to set up the
automatic partitioning in the graphical user interface. Users can
choose with one click to use all disk space, all free space or to
replace existing Linux systems.

These options are supported also in the text user interface and
kickstart files, so users might be already familiar with them.

Advanced users can choose to shrink or remove existing partitions.
They will be redirected to the Manual Partitioning screen, where they
can delete and shrink partitions and automatically generate partitions
for the new installation. However, users have much more flexibility at
this point. They can create a fully customized configuration without
having to revisit the Installation Destination screen.

== Dependencies ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)

== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: Revert the changes in Anaconda.
* Contingency deadline: Beta Freeze
* Blocks release? No
* Blocks product? No

== Documentation ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)



-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

[Kamil Paral]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 7:44 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Anaconda_Reclaim_Disk_Space
>
>  The Manual Partitioning screen supports all actions of the Resize Disk
>  Space dialog, so it doesn't make sense to have two user interfaces
>  with the same functionality.
>  
The manual partitioning screen is also much more complex and therefore more
difficult to use. For the common use case of installing Fedora alongside
Windows (where you need to shrink the Windows partition), the simple dialog
is/was great. Linux novice users might not be able to accomplish that in
the manual partitioning screen.

Just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince you to revert your
plan.

[Jiri Eischmann]

Kamil Paral píše v St 24. 07. 2019 v 13:37 +0200:
>  On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 7:44 PM Ben Cotton
> <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>  > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Anaconda_Reclaim_Disk_Space
>  > 
>  > The Manual Partitioning screen supports all actions of the Resize
>  > Disk
>  > Space dialog, so it doesn't make sense to have two user interfaces
>  > with the same functionality.
>  
>  The manual partitioning screen is also much more complex and
>  therefore more difficult to use. For the common use case of
>  installing Fedora alongside Windows (where you need to shrink the
>  Windows partition), the simple dialog is/was great. Linux novice
>  users might not be able to accomplish that in the manual partitioning
>  screen.
>  
>  Just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince you to revert
>  your plan. 
I second Kamil here. I've introduced hundreds of people to Fedora and
"I've got Windows on the disk and need to reclaim space" is by far the
most common scenario among Fedora novices and instead of giving them a
simple dialog we're sending them to the manual setup which I as a Linux
user for 15 years have problems to get oriented in.
Is it really such engineering overhead to keep that dialog there?

Jiri

[Adam Williamson]

On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 15:29 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
>  Kamil Paral píše v St 24. 07. 2019 v 13:37 +0200:
>  > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 7:44 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > wrote:
>  > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Anaconda_Reclaim_Disk_Space
>  > > 
>  > > The Manual Partitioning screen supports all actions of the Resize
>  > > Disk
>  > > Space dialog, so it doesn't make sense to have two user interfaces
>  > > with the same functionality.
>  > 
>  > The manual partitioning screen is also much more complex and
>  > therefore more difficult to use. For the common use case of
>  > installing Fedora alongside Windows (where you need to shrink the
>  > Windows partition), the simple dialog is/was great. Linux novice
>  > users might not be able to accomplish that in the manual partitioning
>  > screen.
>  > 
>  > Just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince you to revert
>  > your plan.
>  
>  I second Kamil here. I've introduced hundreds of people to Fedora and
>  "I've got Windows on the disk and need to reclaim space" is by far the
>  most common scenario among Fedora novices and instead of giving them a
>  simple dialog we're sending them to the manual setup which I as a Linux
>  user for 15 years have problems to get oriented in.
>  Is it really such engineering overhead to keep that dialog there? 
Yeah...this is specifically why this screen exists: to not be as scary
as the full-on custom partitioning screen. Or, you know...either of the
*two* full-on custom partitioning flows we have now.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net

[Adam Williamson]

On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 14:24 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 15:29 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
>  > Kamil Paral píše v St 24. 07. 2019 v 13:37 +0200:
>  > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 7:44 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > > wrote:
>  > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Anaconda_Reclaim_Disk_Space
>  > > > 
>  > > > The Manual Partitioning screen supports all actions of the Resize
>  > > > Disk
>  > > > Space dialog, so it doesn't make sense to have two user interfaces
>  > > > with the same functionality.
>  > > 
>  > > The manual partitioning screen is also much more complex and
>  > > therefore more difficult to use. For the common use case of
>  > > installing Fedora alongside Windows (where you need to shrink the
>  > > Windows partition), the simple dialog is/was great. Linux novice
>  > > users might not be able to accomplish that in the manual partitioning
>  > > screen.
>  > > 
>  > > Just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince you to revert
>  > > your plan.
>  > 
>  > I second Kamil here. I've introduced hundreds of people to Fedora and
>  > "I've got Windows on the disk and need to reclaim space" is by far
> the
>  > most common scenario among Fedora novices and instead of giving them a
>  > simple dialog we're sending them to the manual setup which I as a Linux
>  > user for 15 years have problems to get oriented in.
>  > Is it really such engineering overhead to keep that dialog there?
>  
>  Yeah...this is specifically why this screen exists: to not be as scary
>  as the full-on custom partitioning screen. Or, you know...either of the
>  *two* full-on custom partitioning flows we have now. 
BTW, as a general note, it seems there's a trend building up where
quite significant changes to anaconda's design are being made
apparently without the design team's involvement. The 'newUI' design
was worked on *extensively* by the design team, particularly Mo Duffy,
and the whole UI design is a piece. I'm a bit worried that all these
changes are compromising the overall 'vision' for how the installer is
supposed to work.

I think perhaps we should consider running noticeable changes to the
anaconda design by the design team for their review and input...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net

On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 14:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 14:24 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  > On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 15:29 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
>  > > Kamil Paral píše v St 24. 07. 2019 v 13:37 +0200:
>  > > > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 7:44 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > > > wrote:
>  > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Anaconda_Reclaim_Disk_Space
>  > > > > 
>  > > > > The Manual Partitioning screen supports all actions of the
>  > > > > Resize
>  > > > > Disk
>  > > > > Space dialog, so it doesn't make sense to have two user
>  > > > > interfaces
>  > > > > with the same functionality.
>  > > > 
>  > > > The manual partitioning screen is also much more complex and
>  > > > therefore more difficult to use. For the common use case of
>  > > > installing Fedora alongside Windows (where you need to shrink
>  > > > the
>  > > > Windows partition), the simple dialog is/was great. Linux
>  > > > novice
>  > > > users might not be able to accomplish that in the manual
>  > > > partitioning
>  > > > screen.
>  > > > 
>  > > > Just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince you to
>  > > > revert
>  > > > your plan.
>  > > 
>  > > I second Kamil here. I've introduced hundreds of people to Fedora
>  > > and
>  > > "I've got Windows on the disk and need to reclaim space" is by
>  > > far the
>  > > most common scenario among Fedora novices and instead of giving
>  > > them a
>  > > simple dialog we're sending them to the manual setup which I as a
>  > > Linux
>  > > user for 15 years have problems to get oriented in.
>  > > Is it really such engineering overhead to keep that dialog there?
>  > 
>  > Yeah...this is specifically why this screen exists: to not be as
>  > scary
>  > as the full-on custom partitioning screen. Or, you know...either of
>  > the
>  > *two* full-on custom partitioning flows we have now.
>  
>  BTW, as a general note, it seems there's a trend building up where
>  quite significant changes to anaconda's design are being made
>  apparently without the design team's involvement. The 'newUI' design
>  was worked on *extensively* by the design team, particularly Mo
>  Duffy,
>  and the whole UI design is a piece. I'm a bit worried that all these
>  changes are compromising the overall 'vision' for how the installer
>  is
>  supposed to work.
>  
>  I think perhaps we should consider running noticeable changes to the
>  anaconda design by the design team for their review and input... 
Hi Adam,

That is not correct. We are in touch with Mo Duffy and she is helping
us to design bigger changes. Last time it was redesign Summary hub to
get there a new spokes. We will probably contact her also with this
change if we see it's needed but I'm not convinced they really are
right now.

Jirka

>  -- 
>  Adam Williamson
>  Fedora QA Community Monkey
>  IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin .
>  net
>  http://www.happyassassin.net
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>  Fedora Code of Conduct: 
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
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[Stephen Gallagher]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 3:17 AM <jkonecny(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 14:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  > On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 14:24 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>  > BTW, as a general note, it seems there's a trend building up where
>  > quite significant changes to anaconda's design are being made
>  > apparently without the design team's involvement. The 'newUI' design
>  > was worked on *extensively* by the design team, particularly Mo
>  > Duffy,
>  > and the whole UI design is a piece. I'm a bit worried that all these
>  > changes are compromising the overall 'vision' for how the installer
>  > is
>  > supposed to work.
>  >
>  > I think perhaps we should consider running noticeable changes to the
>  > anaconda design by the design team for their review and input...
>
>  Hi Adam,
>
>  That is not correct. We are in touch with Mo Duffy and she is helping
>  us to design bigger changes. Last time it was redesign Summary hub to
>  get there a new spokes. We will probably contact her also with this
>  change if we see it's needed but I'm not convinced they really are
>  right now.
>
>  Jirka 

With my FESCo hat on: I'm not going to vote in favor of this Change
without first seeing some mockups/screenshots of the new workflow.

On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 15:29 +0200, Jiri Eischmann wrote:
>  Kamil Paral píše v St 24. 07. 2019 v 13:37 +0200:
>  > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 7:44 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > wrote:
>  > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Anaconda_Reclaim_Disk_Space
>  > > 
>  > > The Manual Partitioning screen supports all actions of the Resize
>  > > Disk
>  > > Space dialog, so it doesn't make sense to have two user
>  > > interfaces
>  > > with the same functionality.
>  > 
>  > The manual partitioning screen is also much more complex and
>  > therefore more difficult to use. For the common use case of
>  > installing Fedora alongside Windows (where you need to shrink the
>  > Windows partition), the simple dialog is/was great. Linux novice
>  > users might not be able to accomplish that in the manual
>  > partitioning
>  > screen.
>  > 
>  > Just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince you to revert
>  > your plan.
>  
>  I second Kamil here. I've introduced hundreds of people to Fedora and
>  "I've got Windows on the disk and need to reclaim space" is by far
>  the
>  most common scenario among Fedora novices and instead of giving them
>  a
>  simple dialog we're sending them to the manual setup which I as a
>  Linux
>  user for 15 years have problems to get oriented in.
>  Is it really such engineering overhead to keep that dialog there?
>  
>  Jiri 
Thanks a lot for your valuable input Jirka and Kamil. We will keep this
in our minds for further decisions. 

Regards,
Jirka

>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct: 
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: 
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives: 
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]

[Chris Murphy]

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 5:38 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 7:44 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Anaconda_Reclaim_Disk_Space
> >
> > The Manual Partitioning screen supports all actions of the Resize Disk
> > Space dialog, so it doesn't make sense to have two user interfaces
> > with the same functionality.
>
>
>  The manual partitioning screen is also much more complex and therefore more difficult to
> use. For the common use case of installing Fedora alongside Windows (where you need to
> shrink the Windows partition), the simple dialog is/was great. Linux novice users might
> not be able to accomplish that in the manual partitioning screen.
>
>  Just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince you to revert your plan. 

I agree. If the change is approved, I'll suggest Docs team revise
documentation to recommend any resize of the pre-installed OS (macOS
or Windows) be done within those operating systems using their tools.
Right now, there's no support for resizing any macOS file system
layout anyway, so we have to advise the user accordingly anyway. And
manual partitioning can be suggested as an alternative for advanced
users.

-- 
Chris Murphy

[John Reiser]

Chris Murphy wrote:
>  ... If the change is approved, I'll suggest Docs team revise
>  documentation to recommend any resize of the pre-installed OS (macOS
>  or Windows) be done within those operating systems using their tools.
>  Right now, there's no support for resizing any macOS file system
>  layout anyway, so we have to advise the user accordingly anyway. 
When I do this (at least every Fedora release) I use gparted (via a
LiveUSB if necessary) to produce the physical partitions that I want,
then use the Manual partitioning dialog to choose and assign them.

[Chris Murphy]

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 8:01 PM John Reiser <jreiser(a)bitwagon.com&gt; wrote:
>  Chris Murphy wrote:
>  >
>  > ... If the change is approved, I'll suggest Docs team revise
>  > documentation to recommend any resize of the pre-installed OS (macOS
>  > or Windows) be done within those operating systems using their tools.
>  > Right now, there's no support for resizing any macOS file system
>  > layout anyway, so we have to advise the user accordingly anyway.
>
>  When I do this (at least every Fedora release) I use gparted (via a
>  LiveUSB if necessary) to produce the physical partitions that I want,
>  then use the Manual partitioning dialog to choose and assign them. 
While I think it's fine and dandy software for the task, when giving
users advice it has two drawbacks:

a. it doesn't apply to macOS
b. anaconda offers blivet-gui which has a conceptually similar
interface to gparted, but does allow assignment of mountpoints, all in
one whack; so we'd be asking users to do something quite a lot more
complicated by suggesting they use gparted and a bootable image we
don't provide.

Anyway, I'm curiously on the fence with this feature proposal. I see
no mockups of the replacement dialog. Also the proposal doesn't say
what happens to the Installation Options dialog that immediately
precedes the Reclaim Disk Space dialog. That dialog is pretty wordy.
Also the dialog proposed for replacement arguably isn't all that
simple to understand:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YxIbJKtL0FT7G0g7j5Un1PU3NLrI0K53

This is the layout for Windows 10 (created Microsoft's installer, not
an OEM - but Windows isn't installed so the reclaimable space values
are inflated). All five of those partitions are related to that single
Windows 10 installation and it's silly to be able to delete any one of
them, which has a good chance of breaking the Windows installation. OK
so it's fair to say the installer can't know about these
relationships, but it surely can know it's silly to offer two of the
small volumes for resize when even if fully resized Fedora can't fit
in the ensuing space. It's instantly a complicated adventure fraught
with peril. It could also hide all the smaller volumes, and only show
the large NTFS formatted volume. It really does need simplification
and instead of putting in that effort, I can see why the installer
team just wants to drop this dialog.

But I'm skepical of the installer transporting the user from the
automatic path, the safe road, into Custom partitioning as if they're
now an advanced user. Custom partitioning has no resize interface. You
just have to somehow know, or imagine, that you can click on a volume
and change Desired Capacity, and that this causes file system shrink
to happen. I don't really think the simple path should advocate for
the complex path. That's not what the user signed up for.


-- 
Chris Murphy

[Vendula Poncova]

The Anaconda team has decided to withdraw this proposal. We have discussed your concerns
and it is true, that the impact on users with Windows could be significant. The problem
seems to be the unfortunate design and unfriendliness of the current Manual Partitioning
screen. We will keep that in mind and try to address this problem in the future.

Thank you all for your feedback!