F36 Change: Default To Noto Fonts (System-Wide Change proposal)

[Ben Cotton]

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DefaultToNotoFonts

== Summary ==
Changing the default fonts for various languages to Noto Fonts as much
as possible, to make consistency on the text rendering.

== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:Tagoh|Akira TAGOH]]
* Email: <tagoh(a)redhat.com&gt;


== Detailed Description ==
For a long time we have used DejaVu fonts as the default font for
European and other language scripts. On the other hand some language
scripts are not covered by DejaVu and hence have other default fonts.
(A few languages like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, as well as
Gurmukhi, Sinhala, and emoji are already using Noto fonts by default
for some time.)  This situation leads to inconsistencies in text
rendering on applications and desktops, particularly when mixing
different character sets. Further Noto fonts bring some further
advantages: the fonts are generally higher quality and support
variable fonts for most scripts, making them more compact.

This change aims to provide better experience and consistent text
rendering across more languages by replacing DejaVu with Noto as the
general system default set of fonts.

The following packages will be installed by default to replace
DejaVu's coverage:
* google-noto-sans-vf-fonts
* google-noto-serif-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-hebrew-vf-fonts
* google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-fonts
* google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-fonts
* google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts
* google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts
* google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts
* google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts
* google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts

And you can check
[https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table] to
see what languages will be affected by this change.


== Benefit to Fedora ==
We would get better text rendering on applications and desktops. Also
this change should save about 6MB on the fresh install.

<pre>
$ rpm -qlv dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-serif-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts
| awk 'BEGIN{a=0}{a+=$5}END{print a}'
10789272</pre>
<pre>
$ rpm -qlv google-noto-sans-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-vf-fonts
google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts
google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts
google-noto
-sans-hebrew-vf-fonts google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts
google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-f
onts google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts
google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts
google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-f
onts google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts
google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts
google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts | awk 'BEGIN{a=0}{a+=$5}END{print
a}'
4753340
</pre>

== Scope ==
* Proposal owners:
** Update google-noto-fonts and dejavu-fonts to change the priority
for fontconfig config.
** Update langpacks to update the dependency.
** Update comps to make Noto fonts default.
** Update lorax templates related to DejaVu.
** Update fontconfig to change the order of fonts in the builtin config.

* Other developers:
** Packagers who owns packages implicitly expects DejaVu is installed
by default will needs to update the dependency for them.

* Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/10492 #10492]
* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Alignment with Objectives:


== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
The migration will be done by updating langpacks. after upgrading and
rebooting, the default font will be Noto instead of DejaVu.

Since this change aims to switch non-variable fonts to variable fonts,
it may not works with legacy applications as expected such as missing
some variants. in that case, you can install non-variable fonts
packages. the package name will be similar and simply drop `-vf` from
the variable fonts packages.


== How To Test ==
* This change can be simply tested by `fc-match` command like
`fc-match sans:lang=<your langauge>`, `fc-match serif:lang=<your
language>` and `fc-match monospace:lang=<your language>`. You can
check the expected result from
[https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table].
* Test the text rendering in your favorite application, which use the
system default font.

== User Experience ==
Users will see the default font is changed to Noto by this change
except for some languages which has much better quality of fonts.

== Dependencies ==
Only dejavu-fonts, langpacks, and fontconfig are required to update.
Other packages which explicitly has a dependency to dejavu-fonts are
basicaly optional to update.

== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism:  Revert the relevant packages updated.
* Contingency deadline: Beta freeze
* Blocks release? No

== Documentation ==
None.

== Release Notes ==
The default fonts for most languages will be Google Noto fonts instead
of DejaVu, to keep consistency on the text rendering and to provide
better quality among languages.


-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

[Igor Raits]

Hello,

On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 4:04 PM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DefaultToNotoFonts
>
>  == Summary ==
>  Changing the default fonts for various languages to Noto Fonts as much
>  as possible, to make consistency on the text rendering.
>
>  == Owner ==
>  * Name: [[User:Tagoh|Akira TAGOH]]
>  * Email: <tagoh(a)redhat.com&gt;
>
>
>  == Detailed Description ==
>  For a long time we have used DejaVu fonts as the default font for
>  European and other language scripts. On the other hand some language
>  scripts are not covered by DejaVu and hence have other default fonts.
>  (A few languages like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, as well as
>  Gurmukhi, Sinhala, and emoji are already using Noto fonts by default
>  for some time.)  This situation leads to inconsistencies in text
>  rendering on applications and desktops, particularly when mixing
>  different character sets. Further Noto fonts bring some further
>  advantages: the fonts are generally higher quality and support
>  variable fonts for most scripts, making them more compact.
>
>  This change aims to provide better experience and consistent text
>  rendering across more languages by replacing DejaVu with Noto as the
>  general system default set of fonts.
>
>  The following packages will be installed by default to replace
>  DejaVu's coverage:
>  * google-noto-sans-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-hebrew-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts 
Will all of them be installed by default or depending on langpacks selection?

>  And you can check
>  [https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table] to
>  see what languages will be affected by this change.
>
>
>  == Benefit to Fedora ==
>  We would get better text rendering on applications and desktops. Also
>  this change should save about 6MB on the fresh install.
>
>  <pre>
>  $ rpm -qlv dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-serif-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts
>  | awk 'BEGIN{a=0}{a+=$5}END{print a}'
>  10789272</pre>
>  <pre>
>  $ rpm -qlv google-noto-sans-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-vf-fonts
>  google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts
>  google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts
>  google-noto
>  -sans-hebrew-vf-fonts google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts
>  google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-f
>  onts google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts
>  google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts
>  google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-f
>  onts google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts
>  google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts
>  google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts | awk 'BEGIN{a=0}{a+=$5}END{print
>  a}'
>  4753340
>  </pre>
>
>  == Scope ==
>  * Proposal owners:
>  ** Update google-noto-fonts and dejavu-fonts to change the priority
>  for fontconfig config.
>  ** Update langpacks to update the dependency.
>  ** Update comps to make Noto fonts default.
>  ** Update lorax templates related to DejaVu.
>  ** Update fontconfig to change the order of fonts in the builtin config.
>
>  * Other developers:
>  ** Packagers who owns packages implicitly expects DejaVu is installed
>  by default will needs to update the dependency for them.
>
>  * Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/10492 #10492]
>  * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
>  * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
>  * Alignment with Objectives:
>
>
>  == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
>  The migration will be done by updating langpacks. after upgrading and
>  rebooting, the default font will be Noto instead of DejaVu. 
Is it safe to delete DejaVu fonts assuming they are not used by any known app?

>  Since this change aims to switch non-variable fonts to variable
> fonts,
>  it may not works with legacy applications as expected such as missing
>  some variants. in that case, you can install non-variable fonts
>  packages. the package name will be similar and simply drop `-vf` from
>  the variable fonts packages.
>
>
>  == How To Test ==
>  * This change can be simply tested by `fc-match` command like
>  `fc-match sans:lang=<your langauge>`, `fc-match serif:lang=<your
>  language>` and `fc-match monospace:lang=<your language>`. You can
>  check the expected result from
>  [https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table].
>  * Test the text rendering in your favorite application, which use the
>  system default font. 
I think this paragraph explains how to test already applied change,
but not really how to "test it before it lands"… Do you think it is
possible to describe it here?

>  == User Experience ==
>  Users will see the default font is changed to Noto by this change
>  except for some languages which has much better quality of fonts.
>
>  == Dependencies ==
>  Only dejavu-fonts, langpacks, and fontconfig are required to update.
>  Other packages which explicitly has a dependency to dejavu-fonts are
>  basicaly optional to update.
>
>  == Contingency Plan ==
>  * Contingency mechanism:  Revert the relevant packages updated. 
Also some instructions / automation to revert the change?

> * Contingency deadline: Beta freeze
> * Blocks release? No
>
> == Documentation ==
> None.
>
> == Release Notes ==
> The default fonts for most languages will be Google Noto fonts instead
> of DejaVu, to keep consistency on the text rendering and to provide
> better quality among languages.
>
>
> --
> Ben Cotton
> He / Him / His
> Fedora Program Manager
> Red Hat
> TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
> _______________________________________________
> devel-announce mailing list -- devel-announce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-announce-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]...
> Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure

[Akira TAGOH]

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 1:28 AM Igor Raits <igor.raits(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Will all of them be installed by default or depending on langpacks
> selection? 
Yes. Basically upgrading will be done by langpacks package update.

>  Is it safe to delete DejaVu fonts assuming they are not used by any
> known app? 
It would be supposed to be so.

>  I think this paragraph explains how to test already applied change,
>  but not really how to "test it before it lands"… Do you think it is
>  possible to describe it here? 
The result you get would be the same to something in f35 cells if you
try to test it before landing.

>  Also some instructions / automation to revert the change? 
As said, all the upgrade process will be done by langpacks. Even if
you already upgraded and installed this change, reverted changes will
also be delivered through langpacks.

HTH,
-- 
Akira TAGOH

[Artem Tim]

Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto font as
well or remain?

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim <ego.cordatus(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto font as
> well or remain? 
The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream
may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Robert Marcano]

On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
>  On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim
> <ego.cordatus(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by Noto
> font as well or remain?
>  
>  The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream
>  may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
>   
Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non 
proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.

The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a 
pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are 
unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).

Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use 
cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a smaller 
number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because the 
font is proportional by default.

[Neal Becker]

After seeing this proposal I tried playing with Noto Sans Mono.  I
find that while it comes with many weights, none look right to me.
Language is English.

I'm testing in emacs.  My usual default is Source code sans semibold
and I find that very pleasing.  I also tried Dejavu Sans Mono
semibold, which looks very similar.  But if I try Noto Sans Mono, no
weight looks right.  Medium is too light, and the next weight,
semibold, is too heavy.

On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM Robert Marcano via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
>  > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim <ego.cordatus(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  >>
>  >> Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced by
> Noto font as well or remain?
>  >
>  > The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream
>  > may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
>  >
>
>  Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non
>  proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
>
>  The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a
>  pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are
>  unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
>
>  Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use
>  cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a smaller
>  number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because the
>  font is proportional by default.
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure


-- 
Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, Dec 30 2021 at 11:06:18 AM -0500, Neal Becker 
<ndbecker2(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I'm testing in emacs. 
I'm going to suggest testing in web browsers too, because the change is 
going to be especially noticeable there. A *lot* of websites use 
default fonts. I find https://lwn.net is a good test page.

[Akira TAGOH]

On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 1:08 AM Neal Becker <ndbecker2(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  After seeing this proposal I tried playing with Noto Sans Mono.  I
>  find that while it comes with many weights, none look right to me.
>  Language is English.
>
>  I'm testing in emacs.  My usual default is Source code sans semibold
>  and I find that very pleasing.  I also tried Dejavu Sans Mono
>  semibold, which looks very similar.  But if I try Noto Sans Mono, no
>  weight looks right.  Medium is too light, and the next weight,
>  semibold, is too heavy. 
Thank you for the feedback. one question just comes to mind.
Do you see any difference when you try it again with a non-variable
font of Noto Sans Mono?

>  On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM Robert Marcano via devel
>  <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  > On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
>  > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim <ego.cordatus(a)gmail.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  > >>
>  > >> Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be replaced
> by Noto font as well or remain?
>  > >
>  > > The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream
>  > > may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
>  > >
>  >
>  > Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non
>  > proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
>  >
>  > The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a
>  > pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are
>  > unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
>  >
>  > Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use
>  > cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a smaller
>  > number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because the
>  > font is proportional by default.
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > Do not reply to spam on the list, report it:
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
>
>
>
>  --
>  Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
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-- 
Akira TAGOH

[Neal Becker]

Sorry, don't understand the question.  I was testing with non-variable
fonts, all were "mono".

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:45 PM Akira TAGOH <tagoh(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 1:08 AM Neal Becker
> <ndbecker2(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  > After seeing this proposal I tried playing with Noto Sans Mono.  I
>  > find that while it comes with many weights, none look right to me.
>  > Language is English.
>  >
>  > I'm testing in emacs.  My usual default is Source code sans semibold
>  > and I find that very pleasing.  I also tried Dejavu Sans Mono
>  > semibold, which looks very similar.  But if I try Noto Sans Mono, no
>  > weight looks right.  Medium is too light, and the next weight,
>  > semibold, is too heavy.
>
>  Thank you for the feedback. one question just comes to mind.
>  Do you see any difference when you try it again with a non-variable
>  font of Noto Sans Mono?
>
>  >
>  > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM Robert Marcano via devel
>  > <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  > >
>  > > On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
>  > > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim <ego.cordatus(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>  > > >>
>  > > >> Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be
>  replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
>  > > >
>  > > > The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream
>  > > > may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > > Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non
>  > > proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
>  > >
>  > > The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a
>  > > pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are
>  > > unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
>  > >
>  > > Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use
>  > > cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a
>  smaller
>  > > number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because
>  the
>  > > font is proportional by default.
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > > List Guidelines:
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > > List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > > Do not reply to spam on the list, report it:
>  https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Fedora Code of Conduct:
>  https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
>  > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
>  > List Archives:
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
>  > Do not reply to spam on the list, report it:
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>
>
>
>  --
>  Akira TAGOH
>  _______________________________________________
>  devel mailing list -- devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Fedora Code of Conduct:
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>  

-- 
*Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it*

[Akira TAGOH]

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 9:41 PM Neal Becker <ndbecker2(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Sorry, don't understand the question.  I was testing with non-variable fonts, all
> were "mono". 
Ah, okay. my proposal was basically to replace with variable fonts. so
I was assuming it may be a variable font and you may see some issue
because of it. Anyway, that's fine then. also looking forward to
hearing your feedback on other applications.

>  On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:45 PM Akira TAGOH <tagoh(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 1:08 AM Neal Becker <ndbecker2(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > >
> > > After seeing this proposal I tried playing with Noto Sans Mono.  I
> > > find that while it comes with many weights, none look right to me.
> > > Language is English.
> > >
> > > I'm testing in emacs.  My usual default is Source code sans semibold
> > > and I find that very pleasing.  I also tried Dejavu Sans Mono
> > > semibold, which looks very similar.  But if I try Noto Sans Mono, no
> > > weight looks right.  Medium is too light, and the next weight,
> > > semibold, is too heavy.
> >
> > Thank you for the feedback. one question just comes to mind.
> > Do you see any difference when you try it again with a non-variable
> > font of Noto Sans Mono?
> >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM Robert Marcano via devel
> > > <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 12/29/21 2:20 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 12:27 PM Artem Tim
> <ego.cordatus(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cantarell current default UI font in GNOME (Workstation) will be
> replaced by Noto font as well or remain?
> > > > >
> > > > > The current plan is to keep Cantarell for now, though GNOME upstream
> > > > > may decide to switch to Noto as KDE Plasma did years ago.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Does Noto have the default font-variant-numeric as tabular-nums? (non
> > > > proportional decimal digits) because it will be a welcomed change.
> > > >
> > > > The current default of Cantarell makes any number showing application a
> > > > pain to style, specially on toolkits that use the system font but are
> > > > unable to change font variants (Java Swing with GTK Look and Feel).
> > > >
> > > > Even GNOME applications aren't properly styled for number entry use
> > > > cases. See for example Calculator where 111,111,111 looks like a smaller
> > > > number than 99,999,999 when the are one on top of the other, because the
> > > > font is proportional by default.
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it
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> >
> > --
> > Akira TAGOH
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>
>  --
>  Those who don't understand recursion are doomed to repeat it
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-- 
Akira TAGOH

[Kevin Kofler]

Ben Cotton wrote:
>  == Summary ==
>  Changing the default fonts for various languages to Noto Fonts as much
>  as possible, to make consistency on the text rendering.
>  
>  == Owner ==
>  * Name: [[User:Tagoh|Akira TAGOH]]
>  * Email: <tagoh(a)redhat.com&gt; 
Considering that DejaVu had been chosen as the default font for its high 
coverage (by the standards at that time), that that coverage has been 
significantly surpassed by Noto, and that DejaVu appears to be unmaintained 
upstream (no commits for 5 years, whereas it used to be released every 2 
weeks or so to improve coverage back in the day), this looks like a 
reasonable thing to do.

Also note that Noto is already the default in KDE Plasma.

>  == Detailed Description ==
>  For a long time we have used DejaVu fonts as the default font for
>  European and other language scripts. On the other hand some language
>  scripts are not covered by DejaVu and hence have other default fonts.
>  (A few languages like Chinese, Japanese and Korean, as well as
>  Gurmukhi, Sinhala, and emoji are already using Noto fonts by default
>  for some time.)  This situation leads to inconsistencies in text
>  rendering on applications and desktops, particularly when mixing
>  different character sets. Further Noto fonts bring some further
>  advantages: the fonts are generally higher quality and support
>  variable fonts for most scripts, making them more compact.
>  
>  This change aims to provide better experience and consistent text
>  rendering across more languages by replacing DejaVu with Noto as the
>  general system default set of fonts. 
+1

However:

>  And you can check
>  [https://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/fonts/noto/f36-noto.html the table] to
>  see what languages will be affected by this change. 
I see in this table that there are still a bunch of languages using non-Noto 
fonts where there appears to be a Noto equivalent available, e.g., 
https://fonts.google.com/noto shows me Devanagari, Bengali, and Tamil on the 
first page whereas your table indicates that Lohit fonts will continue to be 
used there. What is the reason for that? Are the Noto fonts for those 
scripts incomplete? I think using Noto wherever possible would lead to a 
more consistent experience.

        Kevin Kofler

[Akira TAGOH]

On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 7:52 AM Kevin Kofler via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  I see in this table that there are still a bunch of languages using
> non-Noto
>  fonts where there appears to be a Noto equivalent available, e.g.,
>  https://fonts.google.com/noto shows me Devanagari, Bengali, and Tamil on the
>  first page whereas your table indicates that Lohit fonts will continue to be
>  used there. What is the reason for that? Are the Noto fonts for those
>  scripts incomplete? I think using Noto wherever possible would lead to a
>  more consistent experience. 
Asking someone to get an answer for this. I'll get back to you soon,
but Lohit continues to be maintained. and I couldn't get enough
feedback whether Lohit should be replaced with Noto or not. so I set
the goal for this proposal just to replace DejaVu with Noto as the
initial plan.
As you said, there are other languages Noto has the coverage. If they
have enough quality to be replaced, I would strongly agree with you.

>          Kevin Kofler
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-- 
Akira TAGOH

[Kevin Kofler]

Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
>  I see in this table that there are still a bunch of languages using
>  non-Noto fonts where there appears to be a Noto equivalent available,
>  e.g., https://fonts.google.com/noto shows me Devanagari, Bengali, and
>  Tamil on the first page whereas your table indicates that Lohit fonts will
>  continue to be used there. What is the reason for that? Are the Noto fonts
>  for those scripts incomplete? I think using Noto wherever possible would
>  lead to a more consistent experience. 
Another case is the math symbols: Should the default sans-serif math font be 
changed to Noto Sans Math? STIX is a serif font, so it probably makes sense 
to keep as the serif math font (also considering that there is, at least at 
this time, no Noto Serif Math). For cases where the distinction matters, 
see, e.g., the summation sign (clearly visible serifs), the integral sign 
(dots at the ends that are a form of serifs), or the partial derivative sign 
(constant stroke thickness in Noto Sans Math vs. variable in STIX).

        Kevin Kofler

[Akira TAGOH]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:07 PM Kevin Kofler via devel
<devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  Another case is the math symbols: Should the default sans-serif math
> font be
>  changed to Noto Sans Math? STIX is a serif font, so it probably makes sense
>  to keep as the serif math font (also considering that there is, at least at
>  this time, no Noto Serif Math). For cases where the distinction matters,
>  see, e.g., the summation sign (clearly visible serifs), the integral sign
>  (dots at the ends that are a form of serifs), or the partial derivative sign
>  (constant stroke thickness in Noto Sans Math vs. variable in STIX). 
Good point. Yes, that makes sense. I'll update the proposal with it. thanks!

>          Kevin Kofler
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-- 
Akira TAGOH

[Akira TAGOH]

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 7:45 PM Akira TAGOH <tagoh(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 11:07 PM Kevin Kofler via devel
>  <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  > Another case is the math symbols: Should the default sans-serif math font be
>  > changed to Noto Sans Math? STIX is a serif font, so it probably makes sense
>  > to keep as the serif math font (also considering that there is, at least at
>  > this time, no Noto Serif Math). For cases where the distinction matters,
>  > see, e.g., the summation sign (clearly visible serifs), the integral sign
>  > (dots at the ends that are a form of serifs), or the partial derivative sign
>  > (constant stroke thickness in Noto Sans Math vs. variable in STIX).
>
>  Good point. Yes, that makes sense. I'll update the proposal with it. thanks! 
Unfortunately Noto Sans Math doesn't have enough coverage to represent
math (as und-zmth orthography defined in fontconfig). I won't do it
(even if I do, it won't be picked up as a math font) and keep STIX as
a default math font this time for all the generic families.

>  >
>  >         Kevin Kofler
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>
>
>
>  --
>  Akira TAGOH 


-- 
Akira TAGOH

[Kevin Kofler]

Akira TAGOH wrote:
>  Unfortunately Noto Sans Math doesn't have enough coverage to
> represent
>  math (as und-zmth orthography defined in fontconfig). I won't do it
>  (even if I do, it won't be picked up as a math font) and keep STIX as
>  a default math font this time for all the generic families. 
OK, good to know. Specialist fonts clearly still have their use.

        Kevin Kofler

[Brian C. Lane]

On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 10:01:38AM -0500, Ben Cotton wrote:
>  The following packages will be installed by default to replace
>  DejaVu's coverage:
>  * google-noto-sans-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-mono-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-arabic-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-cherokee-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-thaana-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-hebrew-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-rashi-hebrew-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-math-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-armenian-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-armenian-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-canadian-aboriginal-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-georgian-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-georgian-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-sans-lao-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-lao-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-gurmukhi-vf-fonts
>  * google-noto-serif-sinhala-vf-fonts 
lorax templates currently install:

installpkg abattis-cantarell-fonts
installpkg bitmap-fangsongti-fonts
installpkg dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts
installpkg google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts
installpkg google-noto-sans-gurmukhi-fonts
installpkg google-noto-sans-sinhala-vf-fonts
installpkg jomolhari-fonts
installpkg khmer-os-system-fonts
installpkg lohit-assamese-fonts
installpkg lohit-bengali-fonts
installpkg lohit-devanagari-fonts
installpkg lohit-gujarati-fonts
installpkg lohit-kannada-fonts
installpkg lohit-marathi-fonts
installpkg lohit-odia-fonts
installpkg lohit-tamil-fonts
installpkg lohit-telugu-fonts
installpkg paktype-naskh-basic-fonts
installpkg sil-abyssinica-fonts
installpkg sil-padauk-fonts
installpkg sil-scheherazade-fonts
installpkg smc-meera-fonts
installpkg thai-scalable-waree-fonts
installpkg xorg-x11-fonts-misc

And from the conversation it sounds like it will still need dejavu for
some languages?

It sounds like I should keep dejavu and replace the current noto fonts
with the -vf versions? Can any of these others be removed?

Brian

-- 
Brian C. Lane (PST8PDT) - weldr.io - lorax - parted - pykickstart

[Akira TAGOH]

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 8:07 AM Brian C. Lane <bcl(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  lorax templates currently install:
>
>  installpkg abattis-cantarell-fonts
>  installpkg bitmap-fangsongti-fonts
>  installpkg dejavu-sans-fonts dejavu-sans-mono-fonts
>  installpkg google-noto-sans-cjk-ttc-fonts
>  installpkg google-noto-sans-gurmukhi-fonts
>  installpkg google-noto-sans-sinhala-vf-fonts
>  installpkg jomolhari-fonts
>  installpkg khmer-os-system-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-assamese-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-bengali-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-devanagari-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-gujarati-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-kannada-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-marathi-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-odia-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-tamil-fonts
>  installpkg lohit-telugu-fonts
>  installpkg paktype-naskh-basic-fonts
>  installpkg sil-abyssinica-fonts
>  installpkg sil-padauk-fonts
>  installpkg sil-scheherazade-fonts
>  installpkg smc-meera-fonts
>  installpkg thai-scalable-waree-fonts
>  installpkg xorg-x11-fonts-misc
>
>  And from the conversation it sounds like it will still need dejavu for
>  some languages? 
Possibly dejavu-sans-mono-fonts only. we can drop dejavu-sans-fonts.

>  It sounds like I should keep dejavu and replace the current noto
> fonts
>  with the -vf versions? Can any of these others be removed? 
No variable fonts version of Noto Sans CJK fonts. We want to replace
google-noto-sans-gurmukhi-fonts with -vf.
I'll submit PR to update for this later anyway.

Thank you for taking a look.

>  Brian
>
>  --
>  Brian C. Lane (PST8PDT) - weldr.io - lorax - parted - pykickstart
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-- 
Akira TAGOH