moby-engine (also known as Docker) maintenance in Fedora

[Timothée Ravier]

Hi everyone,

The moby-engine package [1] (also known as Docker) has been orphaned in Fedora and is looking for a new maintainer. The waiting period will soon be over and the package will be retired if nobody steps in.

This means that the package will be unavailable starting with the next release of Fedora (Fedora 38) that should happen in approximately 5 to 6 months.

If you are using this package and are interested in helping maintaining it, now is the time to come forward!

This notably impacts Fedora CoreOS as we are including the moby-engine package by default to let users pick their container engine of choice whithout deciding for them in advance. We offer both major container engines by default in the image (podman and moby-engine).

If the moby-engine package ends up being retired for Fedora 38, then we will have to recommend to its users on Fedora CoreOS that they either switch to the official Docker packages [2] or move to containerd or podman when the rebase to Fedora 38 happens alongside the Fedora 38 release [3].

Note that we will likely not remove the containerd package from Fedora CoreOS as it is still maintained in Fedora and is currently used by Kubernetes distributions based on Fedora CoreOS (such as Typhoon for example).

See also the Fedora CoreOS tracker issue [4] for more details.

[1] https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/moby-engine
[2] https://docs.docker.com/engine/install/fedora/
[3] https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-38/f-38-key-tasks.html
[4] https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1291

Thanks,

Timothée Ravier for the Fedora CoreOS team

[Dan Čermák]

Hi Timothée,

On November 14, 2022 7:18:45 PM UTC, "Timothée Ravier"  wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> The moby-engine package [1] (also known as Docker) has been orphaned in Fedora and is looking for a new maintainer. The waiting period will soon be over and the package will be retired if nobody steps in.
>
> This means that the package will be unavailable starting with the next release of Fedora (Fedora 38) that should happen in approximately 5 to 6 months.
>
> If you are using this package and are interested in helping maintaining it, now is the time to come forward!

I'm using docker for $dayjob and would be willing to help out a bit, but I will not be the main maintainer, as I don't feel comfortable taking such a huge package and lack the cycles for that.
> This notably impacts Fedora CoreOS as we are including the moby-engine package by default to let users pick their container engine of choice whithout deciding for them in advance. We offer both major container engines by default in the image (podman and moby-engine).

No offense, but this sounds like that this is something the Fedora coreos team should tackle. Given that Fedora coreos appears to be driven to a large extend by redhat (at least that's my impression, please correct me if I'm wrong), I find it a bit odd that the business is asking volunteers to step up to help the business out...
> If the moby-engine package ends up being retired for Fedora 38, then we will have to recommend to its users on Fedora CoreOS that they either switch to the official Docker packages [2] or move to containerd or podman when the rebase to Fedora 38 happens alongside the Fedora 38 release [3].
>
> Note that we will likely not remove the containerd package from Fedora CoreOS as it is still maintained in Fedora and is currently used by Kubernetes distributions based on Fedora CoreOS (such as Typhoon for example).
>
> See also the Fedora CoreOS tracker issue [4] for more details.
>
> [1] https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/moby-engine
> [2] https://docs.docker.com/engine/install/fedora/
> [3] https://fedorapeople.org/groups/schedule/f-38/f-38-key-tasks.html
> [4] https://github.com/coreos/fedora-coreos-tracker/issues/1291
>
> Thanks,
>
> Timothée Ravier for the Fedora CoreOS team
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[Kevin Kofler]

Dan Čermák wrote:
> I find it a bit odd that the business is asking volunteers to step up to
> help the business out...

Is that not the whole concept of Fedora?

Kevin Kofler

[Peter Robinson]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 11:09 AM Dan Čermák
 wrote:
> Hi Timothée,
>
> On November 14, 2022 7:18:45 PM UTC, "Timothée Ravier"  wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > The moby-engine package [1] (also known as Docker) has been orphaned in Fedora and is looking for a new maintainer. The waiting period will soon be over and the package will be retired if nobody steps in.
> >
> > This means that the package will be unavailable starting with the next release of Fedora (Fedora 38) that should happen in approximately 5 to 6 months.
> >
> > If you are using this package and are interested in helping maintaining it, now is the time to come forward!
>
> I'm using docker for $dayjob and would be willing to help out a bit, but I will not be the main maintainer, as I don't feel comfortable taking such a huge package and lack the cycles for that.
> > This notably impacts Fedora CoreOS as we are including the moby-engine package by default to let users pick their container engine of choice whithout deciding for them in advance. We offer both major container engines by default in the image (podman and moby-engine).
>
> No offense, but this sounds like that this is something the Fedora coreos team should tackle. Given that Fedora coreos appears to be driven to a large extend by redhat (at least that's my impression, please correct me if I'm wrong), I find it a bit odd that the business is asking volunteers to step up to help the business out...

Why? Red Hat no longer uses or ships moby-engine or any of it's
derivatives, it's moved all it's focus to the podman ecosystem, if it
was up to Red Hat they would have dropped moby from FCoS long ago, I
suspect it's there up until now to give the community a choice.

[Dusty Mabe]

On 11/16/22 06:09, Dan Čermák wrote:
> Hi Timothée,

Hey Dan
> On November 14, 2022 7:18:45 PM UTC, "Timothée Ravier"  wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > The moby-engine package [1] (also known as Docker) has been orphaned in Fedora and is looking for a new maintainer. The waiting period will soon be over and the package will be retired if nobody steps in.
> >
> > This means that the package will be unavailable starting with the next release of Fedora (Fedora 38) that should happen in approximately 5 to 6 months.
> >
> > If you are using this package and are interested in helping maintaining it, now is the time to come forward!
>
> I'm using docker for $dayjob and would be willing to help out a bit, but I will not be the main maintainer, as I don't feel comfortable taking such a huge package and lack the cycles for that.

I think there are others that would be willing to help mentor you if
you'd be interested in the challenge (with help). The Golang SIG has
regular meetings and various ways to communicate, which might be a
good way to engage: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Go
> > This notably impacts Fedora CoreOS as we are including the moby-engine package by default to let users pick their container engine of choice whithout deciding for them in advance. We offer both major container engines by default in the image (podman and moby-engine).
>
> No offense, but this sounds like that this is something the Fedora coreos team should tackle. Given that Fedora coreos appears to be driven to a large extend by redhat (at least that's my impression, please correct me if I'm wrong), I find it a bit odd that the business is asking volunteers to step up to help the business out...

No offense taken. This is a great opportunity to add some clarity. Red Hat
doesn't ship Docker in products any longer.  It was dropped in RHEL8+:
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/3696691

Docker (moby-engine) is in Fedora because of the community, which is
obviously what makes Fedora so great.

Dusty

[Maxwell G]

On Wed Nov 16, 2022 at 08:25 -0500, Dusty Mabe wrote:
> On 11/16/22 06:09, Dan Čermák wrote:
> > On November 14, 2022 7:18:45 PM UTC, "Timothée Ravier"  wrote:

<snip>
> > I'm using docker for $dayjob and would be willing to help out a bit, but I will not be the main maintainer, as I don't feel comfortable taking such a huge package and lack the cycles for that.

Yes, the package is complicated :(. It could use some cleanup (see the
end of [1]), but I'm trying to step away from the package, and I haven't
had time to.

[1]: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]/...
> I think there are others that would be willing to help mentor you if
> you'd be interested in the challenge (with help). The Golang SIG has
> regular meetings and various ways to communicate, which might be a
> good way to engage: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Go

That's true. Our next meeting is the 21st at 19:00 UTC in
#fedora-golang. As always, anybody is welcome to attend :).
> > > This notably impacts Fedora CoreOS as we are including the moby-engine package by default to let users pick their container engine of choice whithout deciding for them in advance. We offer both major container engines by default in the image (podman and moby-engine).
> >
> > No offense, but this sounds like that this is something the Fedora coreos team should tackle. Given that Fedora coreos appears to be driven to a large extend by redhat (at least that's my impression, please correct me if I'm wrong), I find it a bit odd that the business is asking volunteers to step up to help the business out...
>
> No offense taken. This is a great opportunity to add some clarity. Red Hat
> doesn't ship Docker in products any longer.  It was dropped in RHEL8+:
> https://access.redhat.com/solutions/3696691

Yes, Docker and Containerd are no longer Supported in RHEL, but that's
besides the point here. Fedora CoreOS ships moby-engine. The CoreOS
Working Group apparently care about moby-engine and want it to be
included in FCOS. I picked up on this and asked if they'd be willing to
help maintain it. The two developers involved (who are paid by RH to
work on FCOS) made clear that they are uninterested in doing so[^1] and
took it upon themselves to find a volunteer to maintain the package. We
got more contributions from an outside contributor who wasn't a package
maintainer (3 PRs which involved rebasing patches, updating
dependencies, and diagnosing build failures) than the FCOS team (0 PRs,
5 pings on their issue tracker and IRC, this email). I'm not trying to
cause unnecessary strife here and they have apologized, but I'd be
dishonest if I said I wasn't disappointed with the way this situation
was handled.

[^1]: which is alright. Everyone is free to choose what packages
they do or don't want to maintain.

--
Maxwell G (@gotmax23)
Pronouns: He/Him/His

[Sandro Mani]

> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > The moby-engine package [1] (also known as Docker) has been orphaned in Fedora and is looking for a new maintainer. The waiting period will soon be over and the package will be retired if nobody steps in.
> >
> > This means that the package will be unavailable starting with the next release of Fedora (Fedora 38) that should happen in approximately 5 to 6 months.
> >
> > If you are using this package and are interested in helping maintaining it, now is the time to come forward!
>
> I'm using docker for $dayjob and would be willing to help out a bit, but I will not be the main maintainer, as I don't feel comfortable taking such a huge package and lack the cycles for that.

As I also heavily use docker for my dayjob, and I see that moby-engine 
is still unmaintained (and I guess a couple of days away from 
retirement), I intend to give it a shot to keep the package alive. I 
don't have expertise in this specific field beyond regular docker and 
docker-compose usage, so clearly help is very much appreciated. I'd 
proceed by taking the package by the end of the week if it still 
unmaintained at that point.

Sandro

[Sérgio Basto]

On Tue, 2022-11-29 at 19:10 +0100, Sandro Mani wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > The moby-engine package [1] (also known as Docker) has been
> > > orphaned in Fedora and is looking for a new maintainer. The
> > > waiting period will soon be over and the package will be retired
> > > if nobody steps in.
> > >
> > > This means that the package will be unavailable starting with the
> > > next release of Fedora (Fedora 38) that should happen in
> > > approximately 5 to 6 months.
> > >
> > > If you are using this package and are interested in helping
> > > maintaining it, now is the time to come forward!
> >
> > I'm using docker for $dayjob and would be willing to help out a
> > bit, but I will not be the main maintainer, as I don't feel
> > comfortable taking such a huge package and lack the cycles for
> > that.
>
> As I also heavily use docker for my dayjob, and I see that moby-
> engine 
> is still unmaintained (and I guess a couple of days away from 
> retirement), I intend to give it a shot to keep the package alive. I 
> don't have expertise in this specific field beyond regular docker and
> docker-compose usage, so clearly help is very much appreciated. I'd 
> proceed by taking the package by the end of the week if it still 
> unmaintained at that point.

I also would like keep moby-engine (also known as Docker) and I will
help if you need .

After analyze go packages, I think we got the same kind of problems of
nodejs, which is, too many packages and each package has very few lines
of code and make other packages have enormous number of dependencies .
In conclusion to maintain it, we will spend a lot of time. I'm thinking
for example docker should include all other specific deps like golang-
github-containerd-* , golang-github-moby-*

So we should try to solve this problem. I'm against this fragmentation
of the packages, i.e. in packages guidelines allow may have different
sources same package .

Best regards,
> Sandro
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[Sérgio Basto]

On Tue, 2022-11-29 at 19:31 +0000, Sérgio Basto wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-11-29 at 19:10 +0100, Sandro Mani wrote:
> > > > Hi everyone,
> > > >
> > > > The moby-engine package [1] (also known as Docker) has been
> > > > orphaned in Fedora and is looking for a new maintainer. The
> > > > waiting period will soon be over and the package will be
> > > > retired
> > > > if nobody steps in.
> > > >
> > > > This means that the package will be unavailable starting with
> > > > the
> > > > next release of Fedora (Fedora 38) that should happen in
> > > > approximately 5 to 6 months.
> > > >
> > > > If you are using this package and are interested in helping
> > > > maintaining it, now is the time to come forward!
> > >
> > > I'm using docker for $dayjob and would be willing to help out a
> > > bit, but I will not be the main maintainer, as I don't feel
> > > comfortable taking such a huge package and lack the cycles for
> > > that.
> >
> > As I also heavily use docker for my dayjob, and I see that moby-
> > engine 
> > is still unmaintained (and I guess a couple of days away from 
> > retirement), I intend to give it a shot to keep the package alive.
> > I 
> > don't have expertise in this specific field beyond regular docker
> > and
> > docker-compose usage, so clearly help is very much appreciated. I'd
> > proceed by taking the package by the end of the week if it still 
> > unmaintained at that point.
>
> I also would like keep moby-engine (also known as Docker) and I will
> help if you need .
>
> After analyze go packages, I think we got the same kind of problems
> of
> nodejs, which is, too many packages and each package has very few
> lines
> of code and make other packages have enormous number of dependencies
> .
> In conclusion to maintain it, we will spend a lot of time. I'm
> thinking
> for example docker should include all other specific deps like
> golang-
> github-containerd-* , golang-github-moby-*
>
> So we should try to solve this problem. I'm against this
> fragmentation
> of the packages, i.e. in packages guidelines allow may have different
> sources same package .

I took moby-engine and fedora-dockerfiles because orphans [1] report
alert for more than 6 weeks orphan

[1] 
https://churchyard.fedorapeople.org/orphans.txt
> Best regards,
> > Sandro
> > _______________________________________________
> > devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> > Fedora Code of Conduct:
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> > List Guidelines:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> > List Archives:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]
> > Do not reply to spam, report it:
> > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
>
> -- 
> Sérgio M. B.
> _______________________________________________
> devel mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines:
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[Sandro Mani]

On 01.12.22 23:16, Sérgio Basto wrote:
> On Tue, 2022-11-29 at 19:31 +0000, Sérgio Basto wrote:
> > On Tue, 2022-11-29 at 19:10 +0100, Sandro Mani wrote:
> > > > > Hi everyone,
> > > > >
> > > > > The moby-engine package [1] (also known as Docker) has been
> > > > > orphaned in Fedora and is looking for a new maintainer. The
> > > > > waiting period will soon be over and the package will be
> > > > > retired
> > > > > if nobody steps in.
> > > > >
> > > > > This means that the package will be unavailable starting with
> > > > > the
> > > > > next release of Fedora (Fedora 38) that should happen in
> > > > > approximately 5 to 6 months.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are using this package and are interested in helping
> > > > > maintaining it, now is the time to come forward!
> > > >
> > > > I'm using docker for $dayjob and would be willing to help out a
> > > > bit, but I will not be the main maintainer, as I don't feel
> > > > comfortable taking such a huge package and lack the cycles for
> > > > that.
> > >
> > > As I also heavily use docker for my dayjob, and I see that moby-
> > > engine
> > > is still unmaintained (and I guess a couple of days away from
> > > retirement), I intend to give it a shot to keep the package alive.
> > > I
> > > don't have expertise in this specific field beyond regular docker
> > > and
> > > docker-compose usage, so clearly help is very much appreciated. I'd
> > > proceed by taking the package by the end of the week if it still
> > > unmaintained at that point.
> >
> > I also would like keep moby-engine (also known as Docker) and I will
> > help if you need .
> >
> > After analyze go packages, I think we got the same kind of problems
> > of
> > nodejs, which is, too many packages and each package has very few
> > lines
> > of code and make other packages have enormous number of dependencies
> > .
> > In conclusion to maintain it, we will spend a lot of time. I'm
> > thinking
> > for example docker should include all other specific deps like
> > golang-
> > github-containerd-* , golang-github-moby-*
> >
> > So we should try to solve this problem. I'm against this
> > fragmentation
> > of the packages, i.e. in packages guidelines allow may have different
> > sources same package .
>
> I took moby-engine and fedora-dockerfiles because orphans [1] report
> alert for more than 6 weeks orphan

Thanks!