Hello,
When I filed the Python 3.8 [change] for Fedora 31, we knew that the schedule would be tight.
For that very reason, we have not yet started to build for Python 3.8 in a f31 side tag, but instead we've only been doing it in [copr] so far.
The mass rebuild happens on 2019-07-24, according to the Fedora 31 [schedule]. That gives us about 1 month + 1 week to be able to merge the side tag back in case we decide to start building it now.
There are several challenges:
- there are ~200 build failures that block this, tracked on [bugzilla] - further there are about ~300 packages that are blocked by the above, possibly more - some of the packages are quite crucial to make this happen (tornado, pygobject3) - the 3.8.0 [releases] have been delayed so far, so continuing the trend, we could very well end up with the first RC just one day before the F31 Final Freeze or even after that (risking 3.8 beta in Fedora 31 GA)
I've met with Petr Viktorin and Tomáš Orsava today and we are prepared to deffer this change to Fedora 32, unless there is a large push-back against that. However we don't want this to be an internal decision behind closed doors, so we are sharing it with you and we are happy to reconsider, in case there is something that we haven't anticipated.
What would that mean: - we would continue to build the packages in [copr] as new Python 3.8 beta versions are released - we would continue to report build failures and to provide pointers to affected maintainers - right after the F32 branching (2019-08-13 according to the [schedule]), we would start with the side tag builds - the Koji builds would start ~2 months later
Benefits: - we would not be stressed by the immediate mass rebuild deadline - we would not need to care about ABI incompatibilities between beta releases, because the last beta should be out when we start
Negatives: - the users would get 3.8 as the main python3 about 6 months later, but they already have Python 3.8 interpreter in Fedora to develop on
We could of course just start building now and than decide not to merge the side tag, but we are worried that it would leave a big mess in git repos and RPM changelogs.
If you think this is not a wise decision and would prefer to have Python 3.8 in Fedora 31 (as the main python3), please discuss quickly. The F31 mass rebuild is approaching fast and there's a lot to be done, so every day counts now; in other words, the later you present your argument, the stronger it must be ;)
[change] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python3.8 [copr] https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/g/python/python3.8/ [schedule] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/31/Schedule [bugzilla] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=PYTHON38&hide_reso... [releases] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/#schedule
Miro Hrončok, on behalf of the Fedora's Python SIG and Red Hat's Python Maintenance team -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok
Thanks for bringing this up, Miro.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 3:03 PM Miro Hrončok mhroncok@redhat.com wrote:
- there are ~200 build failures that block this, tracked on [bugzilla]
I did a spot check of a few of the BZs and it looks like some of those build failures are unrelated to Python 3.8 but are due to other dependencies. Do you have a good sense of how many of the failures are due to Python 3.8 and how many are coincidental?
Benefits:
- we would not be stressed by the immediate mass rebuild deadline
- we would not need to care about ABI incompatibilities between beta releases,
because the last beta should be out when we start
Negatives:
- the users would get 3.8 as the main python3 about 6 months later, but they
already have Python 3.8 interpreter in Fedora to develop on
From my perspective, it's worth waiting until F32 to avoid the potential for important changes in a key package. I don't see anything in the upstream feature set[1] that would justify the risk we'd be subjecting ourselves (particularly the QA team) to.
[1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/#features-for-3-8
On 17. 06. 19 21:41, Ben Cotton wrote:
Thanks for bringing this up, Miro.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 3:03 PM Miro Hrončok mhroncok@redhat.com wrote:
- there are ~200 build failures that block this, tracked on [bugzilla]
I did a spot check of a few of the BZs and it looks like some of those build failures are unrelated to Python 3.8 but are due to other dependencies. Do you have a good sense of how many of the failures are due to Python 3.8 and how many are coincidental?
I'd say around 20-30 % are coincidental.
Benefits:
- we would not be stressed by the immediate mass rebuild deadline
- we would not need to care about ABI incompatibilities between beta releases,
because the last beta should be out when we start
Negatives:
- the users would get 3.8 as the main python3 about 6 months later, but they
already have Python 3.8 interpreter in Fedora to develop on
From my perspective, it's worth waiting until F32 to avoid the potential for important changes in a key package. I don't see anything in the upstream feature set[1] that would justify the risk we'd be subjecting ourselves (particularly the QA team) to.
[1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/#features-for-3-8
Neither do we.
On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 9:52 PM Miro Hrončok mhroncok@redhat.com wrote:
Hello,
When I filed the Python 3.8 [change] for Fedora 31, we knew that the schedule would be tight.
For that very reason, we have not yet started to build for Python 3.8 in a f31 side tag, but instead we've only been doing it in [copr] so far.
The mass rebuild happens on 2019-07-24, according to the Fedora 31 [schedule]. That gives us about 1 month + 1 week to be able to merge the side tag back in case we decide to start building it now.
There are several challenges:
- there are ~200 build failures that block this, tracked on [bugzilla]
- further there are about ~300 packages that are blocked by the above,
possibly more
- some of the packages are quite crucial to make this happen (tornado, pygobject3)
- the 3.8.0 [releases] have been delayed so far, so continuing the trend, we
could very well end up with the first RC just one day before the F31 Final Freeze or even after that (risking 3.8 beta in Fedora 31 GA)
I've met with Petr Viktorin and Tomáš Orsava today and we are prepared to deffer this change to Fedora 32, unless there is a large push-back against that. However we don't want this to be an internal decision behind closed doors, so we are sharing it with you and we are happy to reconsider, in case there is something that we haven't anticipated.
Hi Miro,
Reading your arguments below, I don't have any objections to deferring python 3.8 to fedora 32. However, I'm only affected with a few python packages, so I'm not sure how heavily my opinion will weigh here ;)
What would that mean:
- we would continue to build the packages in [copr] as new Python 3.8 beta
versions are released
- we would continue to report build failures and to provide pointers to
affected maintainers
- right after the F32 branching (2019-08-13 according to the [schedule]), we
would start with the side tag builds
This is probably a typo, you must mean "just after the F31 branching", right?
- the Koji builds would start ~2 months later
Benefits:
- we would not be stressed by the immediate mass rebuild deadline
- we would not need to care about ABI incompatibilities between beta releases,
because the last beta should be out when we start
Negatives:
- the users would get 3.8 as the main python3 about 6 months later, but they
already have Python 3.8 interpreter in Fedora to develop on
I don't think this is a big issue, even more so if python upstream delays their releases even further (reducing the "delay" for fedora).
Thanks for working on this! Fabio
We could of course just start building now and than decide not to merge the side tag, but we are worried that it would leave a big mess in git repos and RPM changelogs.
If you think this is not a wise decision and would prefer to have Python 3.8 in Fedora 31 (as the main python3), please discuss quickly. The F31 mass rebuild is approaching fast and there's a lot to be done, so every day counts now; in other words, the later you present your argument, the stronger it must be ;)
[change] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python3.8 [copr] https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/g/python/python3.8/ [schedule] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/31/Schedule [bugzilla] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=PYTHON38&hide_reso... [releases] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0569/#schedule
Miro Hrončok, on behalf of the Fedora's Python SIG and Red Hat's Python Maintenance team -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
On 17. 06. 19 22:12, Fabio Valentini wrote:
- right after the F32 branching (2019-08-13 according to the [schedule]), we
would start with the side tag builds
This is probably a typo, you must mean "just after the F31 branching", right?
Yes! F31 branching.
On 17. 06. 19 21:03, Miro Hrončok wrote:
Hello,
When I filed the Python 3.8 [change] for Fedora 31, we knew that the schedule would be tight.
For that very reason, we have not yet started to build for Python 3.8 in a f31 side tag, but instead we've only been doing it in [copr] so far.
The mass rebuild happens on 2019-07-24, according to the Fedora 31 [schedule]. That gives us about 1 month + 1 week to be able to merge the side tag back in case we decide to start building it now.
There are several challenges:
- there are ~200 build failures that block this, tracked on [bugzilla] - further there are about ~300 packages that are blocked by the above, possibly more - some of the packages are quite crucial to make this happen (tornado, pygobject3) - the 3.8.0 [releases] have been delayed so far, so continuing the trend, we could very well end up with the first RC just one day before the F31 Final Freeze or even after that (risking 3.8 beta in Fedora 31 GA)
Since there is still no sign of 3.8.0b2 with no explanation on the Python mailing lists and since the Fedora 31 mass rebuild happens in 3 weeks, I'll now edit the change proposal schedule for Fedora 32 and will request the F31 side tag to be closed.
-
Ben Cotton -
Fabio Valentini -
Miro Hrončok