Any chance of getting Firefox 2.0 into rawhide/FC6?

[Gilboa Davara]

Hello all,

Firefox RC1 has just been released.
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bonecho/all-rc.html

AFAIK, unless something comes up, FF 2.0 will be released early next month.
Both rawhide and FC6 still include the older FF 1.5.07.
Is there any plan to push FF 2.0 RC into rawhide, and after testing, into FC6?

- Gilboa

[David Nielsen]

ons, 27 09 2006 kl. 07:59 +0300, skrev Gilboa Davara:
> Hello all,
>
> Firefox RC1 has just been released.
> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bonecho/all-rc.html
>
> AFAIK, unless something comes up, FF 2.0 will be released early next month.
> Both rawhide and FC6 still include the older FF 1.5.07.
> Is there any plan to push FF 2.0 RC into rawhide, and after testing, into FC6?

I doubt it, it's a major change and a lot of stuff depends on Firefox
plus it's way to late in the cycle for that kind of thing we release in
what 2 weeks?

I'm sure it'll go into Development once it opens for FC7 though.

- David

[Benjy Grogan]

Yet Gaim 2.0 is probably going to be released as a beta in FC6.  Maybe
if a Test 4 is decided upon, Firefox 2.0 RC could be included.

Benjy

On 9/27/06, David Nielsen  wrote:
> ons, 27 09 2006 kl. 07:59 +0300, skrev Gilboa Davara:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Firefox RC1 has just been released.
> > http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bonecho/all-rc.html
> >
> > AFAIK, unless something comes up, FF 2.0 will be released early next month.
> > Both rawhide and FC6 still include the older FF 1.5.07.
> > Is there any plan to push FF 2.0 RC into rawhide, and after testing, into FC6?
>
> I doubt it, it's a major change and a lot of stuff depends on Firefox
> plus it's way to late in the cycle for that kind of thing we release in
> what 2 weeks?
>
> I'm sure it'll go into Development once it opens for FC7 though.
> David
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list

[Rahul Sundaram]

Benjy Grogan wrote:
> Yet Gaim 2.0 is probably going to be released as a beta in FC6.  Maybe
> if a Test 4 is decided upon, Firefox 2.0 RC could be included.
>
> Benjy

It doesnt matter much if its called "beta" or "release candidate" or 
whatever. Once it is included in Fedora development tree and tested, it 
is possible to include it. Including a software whether or not its 
called a stable release in the last minute is risky. The default browser 
in a release should have more than a few days of testing. Fedora Core 6 
development feature freeze has long since been reached. Too late for 
including this now.

Rahul

[Adam Jackson]

Benjy Grogan wrote:
> Yet Gaim 2.0 is probably going to be released as a beta in FC6.  Maybe
> if a Test 4 is decided upon, Firefox 2.0 RC could be included.

And then people will complain that test 4 has too broken of a web 
browser, and that we should do a test 5.

How's no sound?

- ajax

[dragoran]

David Nielsen wrote:
> I'm sure it'll go into Development once it opens for FC7 though.
> David

what about release it as a post-FC6 update after some testing in 
updates-testing?

[Rahul Sundaram]

dragoran wrote:
> David Nielsen wrote:
> > I'm sure it'll go into Development once it opens for FC7 though.
> > David
>
> what about release it as a post-FC6 update after some testing in 
> updates-testing?

Too early for that discussion. You can request that after a stable 
release of Firefox 2.0 is made.

Rahul

[Christopher Aillon]

Gilboa Davara wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Firefox RC1 has just been released.
> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bonecho/all-rc.html
>
> AFAIK, unless something comes up, FF 2.0 will be released early next month.
> Both rawhide and FC6 still include the older FF 1.5.07.
> Is there any plan to push FF 2.0 RC into rawhide, and after testing, 
> into FC6?

There is no chance that this will happen, so it is rather pointless to 
plan to do so.

[Benjy Grogan]

On 9/27/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> Gilboa Davara wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Firefox RC1 has just been released.
> > http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bonecho/all-rc.html
> >
> > AFAIK, unless something comes up, FF 2.0 will be released early next month.
> > Both rawhide and FC6 still include the older FF 1.5.07.
> > Is there any plan to push FF 2.0 RC into rawhide, and after testing,
> > into FC6?
>
> There is no chance that this will happen, so it is rather pointless to
> plan to do so.

Okay, but why isn't Firefox ever put into rawhide when it's alphas and
betas become available?  It's as important as Gnome and Gaim and they
seem to get some excellent testing in rawhide.  As it is now FC7 will
have Firefox 2, but everyone will then be talking about including
Firefox 3.  I've brought it up before that Firefox should be more
thoroughly tested in rawhide but there doesn't seem to be any
interest, which I can't understand given the importance of a web
browser in a wired world.

Benjy
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 9/27/06, Benjy Grogan  wrote:
> On 9/27/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> > Gilboa Davara wrote:
> > > Hello all,
>
> Okay, but why isn't Firefox ever put into rawhide when it's alphas and
> betas become available?  It's as important as Gnome and Gaim and they
> seem to get some excellent testing in rawhide.  As it is now FC7 will

As far as I know its Caillon who does
Mozilla/Seamonkey/FIrefox/Thunderbird/BobsYourUncle for RHEL-2.1,
RHEL-3, RHEL-4, FCL-5, soon to be FCL-6 and FCL-devel. It might be 1-2
other people.. but that is not a lot of people to throw at a code base
close to the kernel in size.

It could also be that the two world views of always use the latest
version that the Mozilla Foundation is promoting doesnt match up well
with the "What stable version are we keeping for 5 years?"

[Christopher Aillon]

Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> As far as I know its Caillon who does
> Mozilla/Seamonkey/FIrefox/Thunderbird/BobsYourUncle for RHEL-2.1,
> RHEL-3, RHEL-4, FCL-5, soon to be FCL-6 and FCL-devel. It might be 1-2
> other people.. but that is not a lot of people to throw at a code base
> close to the kernel in size.

No, just lil' ol' me.

[Benjy Grogan]

On 9/27/06, Stephen John Smoogen  wrote:
> On 9/27/06, Benjy Grogan  wrote:
> > On 9/27/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> > > Gilboa Davara wrote:
> > > > Hello all,
> >
> > Okay, but why isn't Firefox ever put into rawhide when it's alphas and
> > betas become available?  It's as important as Gnome and Gaim and they
> > seem to get some excellent testing in rawhide.  As it is now FC7 will
>
> As far as I know its Caillon who does
> Mozilla/Seamonkey/FIrefox/Thunderbird/BobsYourUncle for RHEL-2.1,
> RHEL-3, RHEL-4, FCL-5, soon to be FCL-6 and FCL-devel. It might be 1-2
> other people.. but that is not a lot of people to throw at a code base
> close to the kernel in size.

True.
> It could also be that the two world views of always use the latest
> version that the Mozilla Foundation is promoting doesnt match up well
> with the "What stable version are we keeping for 5 years?"

That's more the thinking for RHEL.

But I get the concerns of API breakage with everything else Firefox
builds would affect in rawhide.  And just bad timing with Fedora
feature freezes and Firefox's roadmap.  And the importance of in fact
having a stable web browser despite the bleeding edge bent of Fedora.
And the woolly mammoth that the codebase is.

And C. Aillon does do an excellent job with Firefox.  1.0.7 came out
simultaneously with Mozilla's release a few weeks ago.  Impressive
considering all the patches that Fedora fine tunes Firefox with.

Anyways, that edge is getting bloody enough as it is.  FC6 should be
pretty astounding.  Looking forward to it.

Benjy
> --
> Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator
> How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed
> in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice"
>
> --
> fedora-devel-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list

[Christopher Aillon]

Benjy Grogan wrote:
> On 9/27/06, Stephen John Smoogen  wrote:
> > On 9/27/06, Benjy Grogan  wrote:
> > > On 9/27/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> > > > Gilboa Davara wrote:
> > > > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > Okay, but why isn't Firefox ever put into rawhide when it's alphas and
> > > betas become available?  It's as important as Gnome and Gaim and they
> > > seem to get some excellent testing in rawhide.  As it is now FC7 will
> >
> > As far as I know its Caillon who does
> > Mozilla/Seamonkey/FIrefox/Thunderbird/BobsYourUncle for RHEL-2.1,
> > RHEL-3, RHEL-4, FCL-5, soon to be FCL-6 and FCL-devel. It might be 1-2
> > other people.. but that is not a lot of people to throw at a code base
> > close to the kernel in size.
>
> True.
> > It could also be that the two world views of always use the latest
> > version that the Mozilla Foundation is promoting doesnt match up well
> > with the "What stable version are we keeping for 5 years?"
>
> That's more the thinking for RHEL.
>
> But I get the concerns of API breakage with everything else Firefox
> builds would affect in rawhide.  And just bad timing with Fedora
> feature freezes and Firefox's roadmap.  And the importance of in fact
> having a stable web browser despite the bleeding edge bent of Fedora.
> And the woolly mammoth that the codebase is.

You're still getting the bleeding edge.  FC6 will most likely have the 
latest supported version of Firefox that mozilla.org ships(*).  Their 
builds have a feature which pings people about new updates, which won't 
tell people using 1.5 to upgrade until 2.0 is out.  And they will still 
continue supporting 1.5 at that point.

(*) Things that could change that are a quick Firefox security release 
between when the final tree is composed, the bits are submitted 
wherever, and then made live, etc. But you get the idea.

[David Nielsen]

ons, 27 09 2006 kl. 18:51 -0400, skrev Benjy Grogan:
> On 9/27/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> > Gilboa Davara wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > Firefox RC1 has just been released.
> > > http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bonecho/all-rc.html
> > >
> > > AFAIK, unless something comes up, FF 2.0 will be released early next month.
> > > Both rawhide and FC6 still include the older FF 1.5.07.
> > > Is there any plan to push FF 2.0 RC into rawhide, and after testing,
> > > into FC6?
> >
> > There is no chance that this will happen, so it is rather pointless to
> > plan to do so.
>
> Okay, but why isn't Firefox ever put into rawhide when it's alphas and
> betas become available?  It's as important as Gnome and Gaim and they
> seem to get some excellent testing in rawhide.  As it is now FC7 will
> have Firefox 2, but everyone will then be talking about including
> Firefox 3.  I've brought it up before that Firefox should be more
> thoroughly tested in rawhide but there doesn't seem to be any
> interest, which I can't understand given the importance of a web
> browser in a wired world.

It's a big package, historically prone to security issues and on top of
that half the desktop stack depends on it. Thus pulling in an alpha
build destablises the entire desktop leading to unhappy users and
developers chasing API breakage.

I would also challenge your notion that Fedora never pulls in beta
builds, I seem to recall Chris pushing such builds on us in the past
provided we could be absolutely sure the final product would hit early
enough not to conflict with our feature freeze.

I think Chris does a remarkable job keeping our Firefox package up to
date within a development cycle and updates from upstream rarely lag
behind by much even for our stable branches.

Upstream provides builds with crash collection, if you really need the
alpha builds that badly and want to help out making it stable you could
run their build in parallel with the Fedora build maybe?

- David Nielsen

[Christopher Aillon]

David Nielsen wrote:
> I would also challenge your notion that Fedora never pulls in beta
> builds, I seem to recall Chris pushing such builds on us in the past
> provided we could be absolutely sure the final product would hit early
> enough not to conflict with our feature freeze.

Yeah, I pulled in Deer Park alphas and betas this time last year.  I'll 
update to the 2.0 RC after FC6 is branched away so that we can get it 
into rawhide.  It just won't hit FC6.
> I think Chris does a remarkable job keeping our Firefox package up to
> date within a development cycle and updates from upstream rarely lag
> behind by much even for our stable branches.

Thanks.  I try.
> Upstream provides builds with crash collection, if you really need the
> alpha builds that badly and want to help out making it stable you could
> run their build in parallel with the Fedora build maybe?

Sounds like a good idea, though I would *very strongly* suggest using a
different user account/profile to do so.  Any bugs need to get fixed 
upstream first anyway, so initiative here is welcomed.

[dragoran]

Christopher Aillon wrote:
> Yeah, I pulled in Deer Park alphas and betas this time last year.  
> I'll update to the 2.0 RC after FC6 is branched away so that we can 
> get it into rawhide.  It just won't hit FC6.

are you talking about the FC6 final release or FC6 updates too?

[Rex Dieter]

dragoran wrote:
> Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > Yeah, I pulled in Deer Park alphas and betas this time last year. 
> > I'll update to the 2.0 RC after FC6 is branched away so that we can
> > get it into rawhide.  It just won't hit FC6.
>
> are you talking about the FC6 final release or FC6 updates too?

No ("it just won't hit FC6"), he means rawhide/FC-7.

-- Rex

[Christopher Aillon]

dragoran wrote:
> Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > Yeah, I pulled in Deer Park alphas and betas this time last year.  
> > I'll update to the 2.0 RC after FC6 is branched away so that we can 
> > get it into rawhide.  It just won't hit FC6.
>
> are you talking about the FC6 final release or FC6 updates too?

I am not planning to have it in FC6 at all.  But I have FC7 RPMs already 
available.

http://christopher.aillon.org/blog/dev/fedora/20061012-firefox2.html

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 10/14/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> dragoran wrote:
> > Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > > Yeah, I pulled in Deer Park alphas and betas this time last year.
> > > I'll update to the 2.0 RC after FC6 is branched away so that we can
> > > get it into rawhide.  It just won't hit FC6.
> >
> > are you talking about the FC6 final release or FC6 updates too?
>
> I am not planning to have it in FC6 at all.  But I have FC7 RPMs already
> available.
>
> http://christopher.aillon.org/blog/dev/fedora/20061012-firefox2.html

So the plan is to backport any security problems found that affect
1.5? I am real sorry its just you doing this...

[Christopher Aillon]

Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
> On 10/14/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> > dragoran wrote:
> > > Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > > > Yeah, I pulled in Deer Park alphas and betas this time last year.
> > > > I'll update to the 2.0 RC after FC6 is branched away so that we can
> > > > get it into rawhide.  It just won't hit FC6.
> > >
> > > are you talking about the FC6 final release or FC6 updates too?
> >
> > I am not planning to have it in FC6 at all.  But I have FC7 RPMs already
> > available.
> >
> > http://christopher.aillon.org/blog/dev/fedora/20061012-firefox2.html
>
> So the plan is to backport any security problems found that affect
> 1.5? I am real sorry its just you doing this...

It needs to be done for RHEL anyway.  1.5.0.x is still maintained by 
upstream.  Drivers [1] (of which I'm a member) make sure that only 
necessary fixes get added.

[1] http://www.mozilla.org/about/drivers

[Joachim Frieben]

Packages work well for me, but: shouldn't there be some SRPMs, too?
> I am not planning to have it in FC6 at all.  But I have FC7 RPMs
> already available.
>
> http://christopher.aillon.org/blog/dev/fedora/20061012-firefox2.html

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le samedi 14 octobre 2006 à 12:33 -0400, Christopher Aillon a écrit :
> I am not planning to have it in FC6 at all.  But I have FC7 RPMs already 
> available.
>
> http://christopher.aillon.org/blog/dev/fedora/20061012-firefox2.html

Raa, no x86_64 love :(

[Gilboa Davara]

On Sat, 2006-10-14 at 12:33 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> dragoran wrote:
> > Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > > Yeah, I pulled in Deer Park alphas and betas this time last year.  
> > > I'll update to the 2.0 RC after FC6 is branched away so that we can 
> > > get it into rawhide.  It just won't hit FC6.
> >
> > are you talking about the FC6 final release or FC6 updates too?
>
> I am not planning to have it in FC6 at all.  But I have FC7 RPMs already 
> available.
>
> http://christopher.aillon.org/blog/dev/fedora/20061012-firefox2.html

I used to build 1.5 -devel RPMs on FC4 and it worked just fine.
Any reason for it not to work on FC6?

- Gilboa

[Gilboa Davara]

On Sun, 2006-10-15 at 00:13 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-10-14 at 12:33 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > dragoran wrote:
> > > Christopher Aillon wrote:
> > > > Yeah, I pulled in Deer Park alphas and betas this time last year.  
> > > > I'll update to the 2.0 RC after FC6 is branched away so that we can 
> > > > get it into rawhide.  It just won't hit FC6.
> > >
> > > are you talking about the FC6 final release or FC6 updates too?
> >
> > I am not planning to have it in FC6 at all.  But I have FC7 RPMs already 
> > available.
> >
> > http://christopher.aillon.org/blog/dev/fedora/20061012-firefox2.html
>
> I used to build 1.5 -devel RPMs on FC4 and it worked just fine.
> Any reason for it not to work on FC6?
> Gilboa

P.S. I assume that the SRPMs will hit rawhide once FC6 is released?

- Gilboa

[Mike Chambers]

On Sun, 2006-10-15 at 00:13 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> I used to build 1.5 -devel RPMs on FC4 and it worked just fine.
> Any reason for it not to work on FC6?

I installed his RPMs on my FC6-Devel system (even did it after a fresh
install hour ago) and it works just fine AFAICT.

It seems to sometimes always keep running (not killing it's pid?) when
hitting the X to close and get the "already running" message when
recalling it up and have to kill the pid manually.

[Dimitris Glezos]

Christopher Aillon wrote:
> I am not planning to have [Firefox 2.0] in FC6 at all.  But I have FC7 RPMs already
> available.
>
> http://christopher.aillon.org/blog/dev/fedora/20061012-firefox2.html

BTW:

Firefox 2 is somewhat important to the Docs/L10N projects since it fixes a bug
currently making us display the new browser start page in english (< Firefox 2
RC2 return the wrong locale via Javascript). A desktop/system fully localized
with a browser having a default start page not localized. Ugly. :)

I was kind of looking forward to a quick inclusion of Firefox 2 in FC6 to
rebuild the release-notes package and fix this.

Anyway, just an information probably worth pointing out.

-d

[Christopher Aillon]

Benjy Grogan wrote:
> On 9/27/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> > Gilboa Davara wrote:
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > Firefox RC1 has just been released.
> > > http://www.mozilla.org/projects/bonecho/all-rc.html
> > >
> > > AFAIK, unless something comes up, FF 2.0 will be released early next
> >
> > month.
> > > Both rawhide and FC6 still include the older FF 1.5.07.
> > > Is there any plan to push FF 2.0 RC into rawhide, and after testing,
> > > into FC6?
> >
> > There is no chance that this will happen, so it is rather pointless to
> > plan to do so.
>
> Okay, but why isn't Firefox ever put into rawhide when it's alphas and
> betas become available?

Can you, *without looking at the release notes*, provide compelling 
reasons to do so?  You've probably looked at the Firefox 2.0 RC1 release 
notes by now so you might be able to spew some out, but the bottom line 
is: web browsing already works for people.  It's not like you can't go 
to amazon and read slashdot without the upgrade.
> It's as important as Gnome and Gaim

A web browser is important yes.  But does it really matter which one? 
Seriously.  As long as people can buy stuff off ebay and amazon, view 
porn, count how many myspace friends they have today, send webmail, look 
up music lyrics, or whatever it is people do on the web, that's all they 
really care about.

Besides, GNOME and gaim are applications designed and written for you 
the Linux user in mind (GNOME arguably is done with the Fedora user in 
mind), and we have sway with what goes in to that codebase.  Firefox is 
written with the Windows user in mind and if you find bugs, I am not 
guaranteed to be able to fix them because I (on behalf of Fedora or Red 
Hat) can't make changes to the source code without getting approval from 
the Mozilla Corporation pursuant to their trademarking guidelines.
> As it is now FC7 will
> have Firefox 2, but everyone will then be talking about including
> Firefox 3.

And I wonder what color shoes it will be wearing.

[Stephen John Smoogen]

On 9/27/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> Benjy Grogan wrote:
> > On 9/27/06, Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> A web browser is important yes.  But does it really matter which one?
> Seriously.  As long as people can buy stuff off ebay and amazon, view
> porn, count how many myspace friends they have today, send webmail, look
> up music lyrics, or whatever it is people do on the web, that's all they
> really care about.

But I want my SVG porn singing the latest itunes on my RHEL-4 box!
> Besides, GNOME and gaim are applications designed and written for you
> the Linux user in mind (GNOME arguably is done with the Fedora user in
> mind), and we have sway with what goes in to that codebase.  Firefox is
> written with the Windows user in mind and if you find bugs, I am not
> guaranteed to be able to fix them because I (on behalf of Fedora or Red
> Hat) can't make changes to the source code without getting approval from
> the Mozilla Corporation pursuant to their trademarking guidelines.

IceWeasel!