this message is a little hard but :
- at first time wizard, keyboard configuration is US, not the selected language at install.
- mozilla is only configured for US (language for web page, interface), the selected language at install have no importance.
- evolution's meteo is Boston US, I have selected an other city in Europe.
- the fedora.redhat.com web site (presentation, pages, documentation) is only in English language, I have made some propositions to translate it but no translation project have started.
I think that now the fedora project is more open to community, it's time to really open it to all languages.
_________________________________________________________________ MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://search.msn.fr/
Cosmic Flo wrote:
this message is a little hard but :
- at first time wizard, keyboard configuration is US, not the selected
language at install.
- mozilla is only configured for US (language for web page, interface),
the selected language at install have no importance.
evolution's meteo is Boston US, I have selected an other city in Europe.
the fedora.redhat.com web site (presentation, pages, documentation) is
only in English language, I have made some propositions to translate it but no translation project have started.
I think that now the fedora project is more open to community, it's time to really open it to all languages.
I could do some translating to pt_BR. I wish to, but still waiting to be contacted by translation project leaders. I guess things must be really busy at RH hq.
Vantroy
MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! http://search.msn.fr/
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On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 10:18, Cosmic Flo wrote:
this message is a little hard but :
I wouldn't say it's hard, I would say these are bug reports. Consider checking the various Bugzillas for these and submitting reports if they're not in there already.
- at first time wizard, keyboard configuration is US, not the selected
language at install.
Bug. --> bugzilla.redhat.com
- mozilla is only configured for US (language for web page, interface), the
selected language at install have no importance.
Upstream bug I guess (is Mozilla multi-language aware? I don't see any message catalogs...). --> bugzilla.mozilla.org
- evolution's meteo is Boston US, I have selected an other city in Europe
[ resending without signature due to sutpid mailing list software ]
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 11:47, Nils Philippsen wrote:
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 10:18, Cosmic Flo wrote:
this message is a little hard but :
I wouldn't say it's hard, I would say these are bug reports. Consider checking the various Bugzillas for these and submitting reports if they're not in there already.
- at first time wizard, keyboard configuration is US, not the selected
language at install.
Bug. --> bugzilla.redhat.com
- mozilla is only configured for US (language for web page, interface), the
selected language at install have no importance.
Upstream bug I guess (is Mozilla multi-language aware? I don't see any message catalogs...). --> bugzilla.mozilla.org
- evolution's meteo is Boston US, I have selected an other city in Europe.
Upstream bug I guess. Evolution needs to differentiate locales in the GConf schema files for the defaults. --> bugzilla.ximian.com
- the fedora.redhat.com web site (presentation, pages, documentation) is
only in English language, I have made some propositions to translate it but no translation project have started.
fedora-docs-list@redhat.com
Nils
Nils Philippsen wrote:
[ resending without signature due to sutpid mailing list software ]
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 11:47, Nils Philippsen wrote:
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 10:18, Cosmic Flo wrote:
- mozilla is only configured for US (language for web page, interface), the
selected language at install have no importance.
Upstream bug I guess (is Mozilla multi-language aware? I don't see any message catalogs...). --> bugzilla.mozilla.org
Mozilla localization is modular and released out-of-sync (i.e. when a version is ready american is always done and various volunteer groups try to catch up). Whether that means moz rpm should be localized out of the box (with multiple sources) or each locale should have its own rpm is another interesting question. Old RedHat Netscape rpms were localised using Mozilla files that were probably already released out-of-sync like now.
The real stupid thing is moz will check translations are done for the exact version installed so one can not have partial translations like for normal apps - either its 100% done or not at all. As a result finding a localized moz version is an hassle (that's one big reason people use epy or galeon - *their* translations do not break every release)
Another point is moz themes - a selection of the best ones should be included in an extra rpm IMHO.
The whole moz logic of install core then click on verious menus to download the missing bits (locale, theme, dicts...) is very windowish and requires much work from rpm packagers. The current packaging is good for US businesses but bad for the average non-US end-user. I hope Fedora will improve on it.
Cheers,
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 13:17, Nils Philippsen wrote:
I wouldn't say it's hard, I would say these are bug reports. Consider checking the various Bugzillas for these and submitting reports if they're not in there already.
Which component and module should one use for Fedora's website on Bugzilla?
roozbeh
Nils Philippsen (nphilipp@redhat.com) said:
- at first time wizard, keyboard configuration is US, not the selected
language at install.
Bug. --> bugzilla.redhat.com
Already there. A quirk of firstboot inheriting rhgb's X server.
- mozilla is only configured for US (language for web page, interface), the
selected language at install have no importance.
Upstream bug I guess (is Mozilla multi-language aware? I don't see any message catalogs...). --> bugzilla.mozilla.org
A new build will pull in translations.
Bill
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Cosmic Flo wrote:
- at first time wizard, keyboard configuration is US, not the selected
language at install.
- mozilla is only configured for US (language for web page, interface), the
selected language at install have no importance.
evolution's meteo is Boston US, I have selected an other city in Europe.
the fedora.redhat.com web site (presentation, pages, documentation) is
only in English language, I have made some propositions to translate it but no translation project have started.
I think that now the fedora project is more open to community, it's time to really open it to all languages.
http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html says about Fedore Core:
Users: Early adopters, enthusiasts, developers
How big a percentage of the above-mentioned user group does not speak English?
Note that it's about being able to read/speak/write English, it has nothing to do with "US" or not.
My personal belief is that most of the internationalization efforts are of very low priority for that particular user group. There are more pressing issues to handle (such as, making it possible to get external contributions on packages etc. to Fedora, getting the infrastructure ready all in all, etc.) first.
YMMV.
Pekka Savola wrote:
I think that now the fedora project is more open to community, it's time to really open it to all languages.
http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html says about Fedore Core:
Users: Early adopters, enthusiasts, developers
How big a percentage of the above-mentioned user group does not speak English?
Note that it's about being able to read/speak/write English, it has nothing to do with "US" or not.
My personal belief is that most of the internationalization efforts are of very low priority for that particular user group.
And you are very wrong. A lot of people can live with english. That doesn't mean they would not jump on a localized version if available. Didn't you notice the efforts an ubber-geek like Alan Cox spent on Welsh lately ? Yet he can live with english too.
Non native langage apps are a pain just like non AA fonts were or XFree approximative drivers for new gfx cards are. Do not underestimate the impact of little pains - a project like Gnome saw the HiG light after accumulating for years "low priority" problems people "could live with".
Polish counts.
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 14:28, Pekka Savola wrote:
http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html says about Fedore Core:
Users: Early adopters, enthusiasts, developers
How big a percentage of the above-mentioned user group does not speak English?
Note that it's about being able to read/speak/write English, it has nothing to do with "US" or not.
My personal belief is that most of the internationalization efforts are of very low priority for that particular user group. There are more pressing issues to handle (such as, making it possible to get external contributions on packages etc. to Fedora, getting the infrastructure ready all in all, etc.) first.
I think you're coming at this from the wrong direction.
In GNOME, we have a huge l10n effort and a lot of contributors from all over the world: these people run GNOME in their native language whenever possible.
Yes, developers speak English and yes, a lot of people in all countries speak English nowadays. But when it's your second language, internationalisation efforts are of utmost importance.
English people, Americans, Australians, etc. are a subset of linux enthusiasts, not the whole.
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Andrew Sobala wrote:
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 14:28, Pekka Savola wrote:
http://fedora.redhat.com/about/rhel.html says about Fedore Core:
Users: Early adopters, enthusiasts, developers
How big a percentage of the above-mentioned user group does not speak English?
Note that it's about being able to read/speak/write English, it has nothing to do with "US" or not.
My personal belief is that most of the internationalization efforts are of very low priority for that particular user group. There are more pressing issues to handle (such as, making it possible to get external contributions on packages etc. to Fedora, getting the infrastructure ready all in all, etc.) first.
I think you're coming at this from the wrong direction.
In GNOME, we have a huge l10n effort and a lot of contributors from all over the world: these people run GNOME in their native language whenever possible.
Yes, developers speak English and yes, a lot of people in all countries speak English nowadays. But when it's your second language, internationalisation efforts are of utmost importance.
English people, Americans, Australians, etc. are a subset of linux enthusiasts, not the whole.
Some of my observations from technical translations:
1) more often than not, they seem badly translated, or there just isn't useful local Language terminology which would be commonly understood.
2) technical folks don't even know what the local Language term X refers to (compared to the English version), as the terms aren't stable, and globally common. So, using the local language is often a much bigger problem, especially if you report bugs, discuss features or such in English.
3) translations are often not really in sync with the latest versions, some translations are missing, or not everything is translated anyway.
Some of my observations from technical translations:
- more often than not, they seem badly translated, or there just isn't
useful local Language terminology which would be commonly understood.
- technical folks don't even know what the local Language term X refers
to (compared to the English version), as the terms aren't stable, and globally common. So, using the local language is often a much bigger problem, especially if you report bugs, discuss features or such in English.
- translations are often not really in sync with the latest versions,
some translations are missing, or not everything is translated anyway.
You're right ! But those problems are _nothing_ compared to the problems you face when you don't speak a single word of English and yet have to use English-only apps.
I really think a bad translation is better than no translation at all. Even if I prefer running my desktop in English anyway (I'm a native French speaker)...
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:23:13PM +0100, Julien Olivier wrote:
You're right ! But those problems are _nothing_ compared to the problems you face when you don't speak a single word of English and yet have to use English-only apps.
But then we are no longer talkig about developers and early adopters. When one can't read README's in tarballs, one can hardly fall into these categories.
Regards,
Yeti
-- Do not use tab characters. Their effect is not predictable.
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, David Necas (Yeti) wrote:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:23:13PM +0100, Julien Olivier wrote:
You're right ! But those problems are _nothing_ compared to the problems you face when you don't speak a single word of English and yet have to use English-only apps.
But then we are no longer talkig about developers and early adopters. When one can't read README's in tarballs, one can hardly fall into these categories.
_Exactly_ my point, thanks. I realize that for some user communities, translations (even shoddy ones) are very important.. but strictly speaking, for Fedora Core they probably aren't.
Pekka Savola wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, David Necas (Yeti) wrote:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:23:13PM +0100, Julien Olivier wrote:
You're right ! But those problems are _nothing_ compared to the problems you face when you don't speak a single word of English and yet have to use English-only apps.
But then we are no longer talkig about developers and early adopters. When one can't read README's in tarballs, one can hardly fall into these categories.
_Exactly_ my point, thanks. I realize that for some user communities, translations (even shoddy ones) are very important.. but strictly speaking, for Fedora Core they probably aren't.
Someone that can read README's in tarballs is not going to wait for the latest and greatest to be packaged in a Fedora rpm.
I don't think it's constructive to continue this thread, but I'll just point out something here..
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Pekka Savola wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, David Necas (Yeti) wrote:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:23:13PM +0100, Julien Olivier wrote:
You're right ! But those problems are _nothing_ compared to the problems you face when you don't speak a single word of English and yet have to use English-only apps.
But then we are no longer talkig about developers and early adopters. When one can't read README's in tarballs, one can hardly fall into these categories.
_Exactly_ my point, thanks. I realize that for some user communities, translations (even shoddy ones) are very important.. but strictly speaking, for Fedora Core they probably aren't.
Someone that can read README's in tarballs is not going to wait for the latest and greatest to be packaged in a Fedora rpm.
Wrong. Many (almost all I know) people which use a RPM-centric distribution actually prefer to get their packages in RPM format. They're certainly *not* going to install the stuff from a tarball.
Whether they wait for Fedora, or just re-package the RPM with newest stuff themselves, is a different question.
Pekka Savola wrote:
I don't think it's constructive to continue this thread, but I'll just point out something here..
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Someone that can read README's in tarballs is not going to wait for the latest and greatest to be packaged in a Fedora rpm.
Wrong. Many (almost all I know) people which use a RPM-centric distribution actually prefer to get their packages in RPM format.
Sure. But they do not need to. Just like your people that more or less understand english do not need a localized UI but won't bother with an english one unless they absolutely have to.
They're certainly *not* going to install the stuff from a tarball.
Whether they wait for Fedora, or just re-package the RPM with newest stuff themselves, is a different question.
Not at all. If they repackage outside Fedora they're outside of the scope of this discussion (and just repackaging != meeting Fedora's contribution standards as a lot of people here should know).
In the Fedora world quality packaging is paramount and this includes attention to localization. People are just not going to test a pile of crappy packages (not the case in the commercial world but there testers are paid).
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 19:27, David Necas (Yeti) wrote:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:23:13PM +0100, Julien Olivier wrote:
You're right ! But those problems are _nothing_ compared to the problems you face when you don't speak a single word of English and yet have to use English-only apps.
But then we are no longer talkig about developers and early adopters. When one can't read README's in tarballs, one can hardly fall into these categories.
Sorry but I didn't know that the Fedora Core was only aimed at developers and early adopters... what about _normal_ users ? Is it now official that Linux isn't for them ?
Regards,
Yeti
-- Do not use tab characters. Their effect is not predictable.
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On Saturday 27 September 2003 03:37 pm, Julien Olivier wrote:
Sorry but I didn't know that the Fedora Core was only aimed at developers and early adopters... what about _normal_ users ? Is it now official that Linux isn't for them ?
A BETA Fedora is definitely not for 'normal' users. Let's see how the translations develop; or better yet, volunteer to do some.
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 21:39, Lamar Owen wrote:
On Saturday 27 September 2003 03:37 pm, Julien Olivier wrote:
Sorry but I didn't know that the Fedora Core was only aimed at developers and early adopters... what about _normal_ users ? Is it now official that Linux isn't for them ?
A BETA Fedora is definitely not for 'normal' users. Let's see how the translations develop; or better yet, volunteer to do some.
Of course a BETA isn't but what is not fixed in a BETA stays in the final.
David Necas (Yeti) wrote:
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:23:13PM +0100, Julien Olivier wrote:
You're right ! But those problems are _nothing_ compared to the problems you face when you don't speak a single word of English and yet have to use English-only apps.
But then we are no longer talkig about developers and early adopters. When one can't read README's in tarballs, one can hardly fall into these categories.
Being an early adopter does not mean one's fluent in english. (Nor that one is proficent technicaly for that matter)
Telsa is a great example at Gnome why someone that does not understand why something is supposed to fail (like a technical person) makes a perfect tester.
The people who are going to use your system most are non-technical persons that do not speak english well or at all, if only for demographic reasons. Don't you see the wall you're running into if you knowingly exclude them from most testing stage ?
I case you didn't notice, some of the biggest free software wins lately were in regions that were dissatisfied with the piss-poor (or lack altogether of) local translations of big proprietary solutions (because big corps think like you do that english is good enough for everybody and localizing a second thought).
Few non-english speakers will contribute code right. English is the de facto computing ligua franca right now. But these populations can help a lot with testing and should not be ignored.
(btw it says a lot RedHat never noticed how offensive anaconda's joke about redneck could be to people who have to bear all day with english-only apps)
Julien Olivier wrote:
Some of my observations from technical translations:
- more often than not, they seem badly translated, or there just isn't
useful local Language terminology which would be commonly understood.
- technical folks don't even know what the local Language term X refers
to (compared to the English version), as the terms aren't stable, and globally common. So, using the local language is often a much bigger problem, especially if you report bugs, discuss features or such in English.
- translations are often not really in sync with the latest versions,
some translations are missing, or not everything is translated anyway.
You're right ! But those problems are _nothing_ compared to the problems you face when you don't speak a single word of English and yet have to use English-only apps.
I really think a bad translation is better than no translation at all. Even if I prefer running my desktop in English anyway (I'm a native French speaker)...
I second you here, Julien. I am a native portuguese speaker but prefer to use my desktop and apps in english, but I've seem not one or two times months of brain-washing goin away when that M$ ape I am lecturing about Linux give up cause there no portuguese versions of manuals. Very frustrating.
Van
Pekka Savola wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Andrew Sobala wrote:
On Sat, 2003-09-27 at 14:28, Pekka Savola wrote:
Some of my observations from technical translations:
- more often than not, they seem badly translated, or there just isn't
useful local Language terminology which would be commonly understood.
And how deferring translations is going to improve quality ? Short of actually paying technical translators (and yes some of them are quite good, don't confuse summer intern work with real professional stuff) the only way to have quality work is to expose translations as soon as possible and have people report typos and errors (exactly what rawhide is doing now)
- technical folks don't even know what the local Language term X refers
to (compared to the English version), as the terms aren't stable, and globally common.
The terms aren't stable or common when the translated body is small. Any big translation effort will find good terminology and standardise on it. The worst thing that can happen is small teams doing bits without any coordination (which happens when the translated works are not published as soon as they are translated).
That the terms have no relation with the technical english equivalents does not matter. Poetic nature matters more since that's what makes a living language. When you look at it most english terms started as a bad analogy (from a technical point of view) or joke anyway.
Some of the best translations I've seen have nothing in common with the english terms or the accepted accademical/commercial translation. But they make perfect sense because someone at some time had a great inspiration and found out a term that just fit. And this was in open translation groups works btw.
And didn't you notice most of free software has an irc piggin english that's no better that the translations you criticize ?
So, using the local language is often a much bigger problem, especially if you report bugs, discuss features or such in English.
It poses a problem in reports all right. Just live with it. Reporters do not speak C anyway. You might as well forbid icons because not two persons will describe these colourfoul thinguies the same way.
- translations are often not really in sync with the latest versions,
some translations are missing, or not everything is translated anyway.
And software is not perfect too. That's why we have a QA infrastructure. Demanding that some work should be held to higher standards just because it belongs to another profession is the higuest form of arrogance.
(speaking as someone that writes bad developper english all day but happens to have a mother who works as a professional technical translator)
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Pekka Savola wrote:
Some of my observations from technical translations:
- more often than not, they seem badly translated, or there just isn't
useful local Language terminology which would be commonly understood.
And how deferring translations is going to improve quality ? Short of actually paying technical translators (and yes some of them are quite good, don't confuse summer intern work with real professional stuff) the only way to have quality work is to expose translations as soon as possible and have people report typos and errors (exactly what rawhide is doing now)
Deferring is not improving the situation, of course. It's just stating that it's not the most important problem of *Fedora*. Proper translations will probably need worked on in other fora..
- technical folks don't even know what the local Language term X refers
to (compared to the English version), as the terms aren't stable, and globally common.
The terms aren't stable or common when the translated body is small. Any big translation effort will find good terminology and standardise on it. The worst thing that can happen is small teams doing bits without any coordination (which happens when the translated works are not published as soon as they are translated).
That the terms have no relation with the technical english equivalents does not matter. Poetic nature matters more since that's what makes a living language. When you look at it most english terms started as a bad analogy (from a technical point of view) or joke anyway.
Some of the best translations I've seen have nothing in common with the english terms or the accepted accademical/commercial translation. But they make perfect sense because someone at some time had a great inspiration and found out a term that just fit. And this was in open translation groups works btw.
And didn't you notice most of free software has an irc piggin english that's no better that the translations you criticize ?
I'm not advocating that the translations resemble English. What I tried to say is that when I see, e.g., a Finnish term X (which is used *by the translator* to refer to the English term Y), I have no idea what it means: English term Y, Z, W, or anything else.
So, using the local language is often a much bigger problem, especially if you report bugs, discuss features or such in English.
It poses a problem in reports all right. Just live with it. Reporters do not speak C anyway. You might as well forbid icons because not two persons will describe these colourfoul thinguies the same way.
Please note that Fedora is meant for the early adopters, enthusiasts, and developers. An increased amount of cluefulness should be assumed. Especially with these user groups, getting feedback (e.g. bug reports that can be understood) is critical -- because you don't typically get bug reports (except maybe through official support channels, which don't exist for Fedora) otherwise.
- translations are often not really in sync with the latest versions,
some translations are missing, or not everything is translated anyway.
And software is not perfect too. That's why we have a QA infrastructure. Demanding that some work should be held to higher standards just because it belongs to another profession is the higuest form of arrogance.
What I try to say that IMHO it is more important to spend the energy on development, testing etc. _in this specific distribution, which should be a "moving target", than continuously revising the translations.
But I don't really mind translations, especially if they're done by the folks for which that's the way they can contribute to the project.
However, what I do object to is getting into the state where we expect translations to be one of the number one priorities in this particular project.
Pekka Savola wrote:
What I try to say that IMHO it is more important to spend the energy on development, testing etc. _in this specific distribution, which should be a "moving target", than continuously revising the translations.
Galeon and epy and Gnome in general use a continuously revised translation model. Mozilla does what you propose ie do everything in english and worry about translations last.
Guess which of these projects prompted a message today about the quality of the localizations ?
Localization is integral part of software like pretty icons, attention to ergonomy and so on. You can not expect to dump it on a final last stage and actually get a good results.
Granted, some people will never appreciate it just like others are colour-blind. That does not mean it is not important.
We are not talking about writing software from scratch here. To get into Fedora a project must at least reached the packageable state. If at this stage the project maintainers haven't even started thinking about localization we should really worry because there's little chance it will be done by the time Fedora core ships.
And I do realise that in some countries having english-only software is not crucial (either because they are english-speaking countries or because culturaly people are ready to accept working in a foreign tongue). But please do not generalise from those cases. They are far from constituting the bulk of the planet.
[...]
However, what I do object to is getting into the state where we expect translations to be one of the number one priorities in this particular project.
Sure they won't be the number one priority. I'd be surprised something will - you need more than one focus to make a great product.
However there is no question in my mind they should be one of the biggest priorities at least for all the desktop stuff. Even native english speakers would appreciate a proper translation from irc english to litterary english I'm sure.
The sad fact is most coders can not write correctly in any language. If they could they wouldn't have chosen this branch of work anyway;)
Cheers
Hello, On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 10:30:45PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
We are not talking about writing software from scratch here. To get into Fedora a project must at least reached the packageable state. If at this stage the project maintainers haven't even started thinking about localization we should really worry because there's little chance it will be done by the time Fedora core ships.
Speaking as a translator, I don't think adding translations to _existing_ software projects just for Fedora is right. The translations should be done, integrated and tested upstream, so that they receive wider testing, developer cooperation and so that they benefit all users of the package, not only those using Fedora.
For Fedora/RHL-specific packages (redhat-config-* for instance), that's different of course and I believe the status quo is mostly fine in this respect. Mirek
Miloslav Trmac wrote:
Hello, On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 10:30:45PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
We are not talking about writing software from scratch here. To get into Fedora a project must at least reached the packageable state. If at this stage the project maintainers haven't even started thinking about localization we should really worry because there's little chance it will be done by the time Fedora core ships.
Speaking as a translator, I don't think adding translations to _existing_ software projects just for Fedora is right. The translations should be done, integrated and tested upstream, so that they receive wider testing, developer cooperation and so that they benefit all users of the package, not only those using Fedora.
Sure. However localization should be a criterium for acceptance in Fedora, and Fedora will be a good testing ground for upstream translations.
It's much easier to ask testers to review translations in packaged software than asking them to grok the english readme and install stuff by themselves. I don't believe in closed room localization. Real users will find real problems in localization just like they will find some in software code.
That the reports then need to be filtered and fixed upstream is not specific to localization at all. I strongly believe Fedora will largely live or die by the way such reports are handled. A lot of people are dying to report problems but do not have time to invest to learn all the various reporting systems upstream projects use. If they could report everything via a common interface then have people in the know collect reports and interface with upstream projects overall distribution quality would improve enormously (and I'm not just talking about localization here).
Cheers,
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
However localization should be a criterium for acceptance in Fedora, and Fedora will be a good testing ground for upstream translations.
It's much easier to ask testers to review translations in packaged software than asking them to grok the english readme and install stuff by themselves. I don't believe in closed room localization. Real users will find real problems in localization just like they will find some in software code.
for me, the *most critical* program is the installer, Anaconda.
Long time ago http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16398 I did an adaptation/retranslation of the very very bad, in one word -garbage-, anaconda spanish .po file. But my changes was not accepted. Maybe they thought that mine was worse and their "professional" translator was.... professional ;-)
_First impression_ for a new LiNUX user *must* be good. I prefer an original English than a bad and not understandable Spanish(Spain) translation.
I believe that Anaconda should be first project with good documentacion for foreign languages.
-thanks-
Xose Vazquez Perez wrote:
for me, the *most critical* program is the installer, Anaconda.
Long time ago http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16398 I did an adaptation/retranslation of the very very bad, in one word -garbage-, anaconda spanish .po file. But my changes was not accepted. Maybe they thought that mine was worse and their "professional" translator was.... professional ;-)
_First impression_ for a new LiNUX user *must* be good. I prefer an original English than a bad and not understandable Spanish(Spain) translation.
Sure. But you can't jump from no to perfect, you need a polishing stage;). Anyway anaconda is a special case because for anaconda upstream=RedHat.
(and I actually care more about the service messages than anaconda - one gets exposed to anaconda once, but to the bad strings in services at every reboot).
Regards,
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:14 am, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
(and I actually care more about the service messages than anaconda - one gets exposed to anaconda once, but to the bad strings in services at every reboot).
Hi Nicolas,
Sorry I would like to clarify, are you referring to localized messages displayed during system startup and shutdown? If so, please file a bug report against the module "initscripts" and we will get this resolved.
Thanks, Paul
Hi Xose,
We have made a number of changes internally over the last year, to improve the quality of the localization of software written by Red Hat. If you have found mis-translations in any of the recent releases I would greatly appreciate a bug report on them.
I completely agree, anaconda must make a good first impression.
Paul
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:56 am, Xose Vazquez Perez wrote:
Long time ago http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=16398 I did an adaptation/retranslation of the very very bad, in one word -garbage-, anaconda spanish .po file. But my changes was not accepted. Maybe they thought that mine was worse and their "professional" translator was.... professional ;-)
_First impression_ for a new LiNUX user *must* be good. I prefer an original English than a bad and not understandable Spanish(Spain) translation.
I believe that Anaconda should be first project with good documentacion for foreign languages.
-thanks-
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Pekka Savola wrote:
What I try to say that IMHO it is more important to spend the energy on development, testing etc. _in this specific distribution, which should be a "moving target", than continuously revising the translations.
Galeon and epy and Gnome in general use a continuously revised translation model. Mozilla does what you propose ie do everything in english and worry about translations last.
You know all the time that people have been crapping all over each other about translations at least one application could have been done to a native language and dropped into Bugzilla.
Please note that Fedora is meant for the early adopters, enthusiasts, and developers. An increased amount of cluefulness should be assumed. Especially with these user groups, getting feedback (e.g. bug reports that can be understood) is critical -- because you don't typically get bug reports (except maybe through official support channels, which don't exist for Fedora) otherwise.
You need a really huge testing/feedback group to find problem areas for the source code included in Fedora. So I really think it is bad if you want to limit the number of people using it or want to reduce it.
Look at how Alan Cox with his -ac kernels is "listening" to a large crowd of users and can say "that specific driver probably has problems on some hardware revisions, I get a few more complains than usual". Wouldn't he be more productive by not providing his kernels to a that large group?
However, what I do object to is getting into the state where we expect translations to be one of the number one priorities in this particular project.
It is an important goal of Fedora to increase the number of contributing developers. You have been a very active contributor to RHL in the past and I hope you find Fedora and how it will evolve even more useful. We still need more infrastructure to allow this, not just mailinglists about "please update OO for me". But don't assume that kind of feedback is not useful, as Fedora contains a really huge source base and that needs a huge crowd of people who use it.
Similar thing is our bugzilla. Is it swamped with "it does not work but I don't give you details" and "please give me the newest version this week, I have seen it on some website"? But it also contains lots of reports that can be immediately used by developers to improve Fedora, without even using all the corner cases of the source code yourself or even knowing about them.
greetings,
Florian La Roche
Pekka Savola (pekkas@netcore.fi) said:
My personal belief is that most of the internationalization efforts are of very low priority for that particular user group. There are more pressing issues to handle (such as, making it possible to get external contributions on packages etc. to Fedora, getting the infrastructure ready all in all, etc.) first.
Well, good localization is certainly a goal. But translations fall under most other contributions, so they'd need similar infrastructure for those things that don't have a translation framework already existing - the web site certainly falls into this category.
Bill
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 08:18:36AM +0000, Cosmic Flo wrote:
this message is a little hard but :
- at first time wizard, keyboard configuration is US, not the selected
language at install.
- mozilla is only configured for US (language for web page, interface), the
selected language at install have no importance.
evolution's meteo is Boston US, I have selected an other city in Europe.
the fedora.redhat.com web site (presentation, pages, documentation) is
only in English language, I have made some propositions to translate it but no translation project have started.
There is a translation project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/translations/
We don't have any details yet, but we are open to suggestions.
These are in English because you have to start with some language, and English happens to be the first and maybe only language of those who initially created them.
I think that now the fedora project is more open to community, it's time to really open it to all languages.
Definitely. We need a translation plan.
-
Andrew Sobala -
Bill Nottingham -
Christopher Blizzard -
Cosmic Flo -
David Nečas -
Florian La Roche -
Julien Olivier -
Lamar Owen -
Miloslav Trmač -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Nils Philippsen -
Paul Gampe -
Pekka Savola -
Rodrigo Del C. Andrade -
Roozbeh Pournader -
Stephen Smoogen -
Tammy Fox -
Xose Vazquez Perez