1:50 p.m.
Hi!
Recently, a funny thing happened on Polish Fedora forum. Some users
were talking about Miro but rest of them weren't able even to install
that... After some time it turned out that they tried to type "yum
install miro" instead of "yum install Miro".
So my question is the same as in the topic: should "yum install" be
case sensitive?
I haven't checked but I'm quite sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that
there are no packages in repo whose names differ in letter size.
What's more: "yum list" command is case insensitive and there's
nothing wrong with it, is there? I know that you can say that these
users I wrote about in the beginning should have used "yum list" first
and then they would have found out why things went wrong but it makes
a need to type more and more commands.
"yum install" gives a summary what packages are going to be installed
so if a user wanted to run "Foo", but not "foo" she/he could break
the
installation.
Besides, pressing SHIFT key could be painful ;-)
So my proposal is to make "yum install" (and probably "yum update" as
well) case insensitive.
Just think about it :)
Regards.
--
Michał Bentkowski
mr.ecik(a)gmail.com
1:55 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:50:46 +0100
"Michał Bentkowski" <mr.ecik(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi!
Recently, a funny thing happened on Polish Fedora forum. Some users
were talking about Miro but rest of them weren't able even to install
that... After some time it turned out that they tried to type "yum
install miro" instead of "yum install Miro".
So my question is the same as in the topic: should "yum install" be
case sensitive?
I haven't checked but I'm quite sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that
there are no packages in repo whose names differ in letter size.
What's more: "yum list" command is case insensitive and there's
nothing wrong with it, is there? I know that you can say that these
users I wrote about in the beginning should have used "yum list" first
and then they would have found out why things went wrong but it makes
a need to type more and more commands.
"yum install" gives a summary what packages are going to be installed
so if a user wanted to run "Foo", but not "foo" she/he could break
the
installation.
Besides, pressing SHIFT key could be painful ;-)
So my proposal is to make "yum install" (and probably "yum update"
as
well) case insensitive.
Just think about it :)
Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro, the
rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions need to
be case sensitive. We could try for some brutal packaging policy that
demands all package names be in lower case, but I doubt that would fly
very far.
--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
2:03 p.m.
Hi.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:55:34 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote
Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro,
the rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions
need to be case sensitive.
How about "try case sensitive first, and insensitive if the first does
not turn up anything"?
2:06 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 21:03 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
Hi.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:55:34 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote
> Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
> case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro,
> the rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions
> need to be case sensitive.
How about "try case sensitive first, and insensitive if the first does
not turn up anything"?
yes, b/c we love it so much when computer programs try to think for us.
-sv
2:15 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 15:17 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
seth vidal (skvidal(a)fedoraproject.org) said:
> yes, b/c we love it so much when computer programs try to think for us.
Why does yum keep responding to every command with "KILL ALL HUMANS"?
b/c yum is always asked to implement a 'do what I mean' mode.
-sv
2:19 p.m.
seth vidal wrote:
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 21:03 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
> Hi.
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:55:34 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote
>
>> Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
>> case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro,
>> the rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions
>> need to be case sensitive.
> How about "try case sensitive first, and insensitive if the first does
> not turn up anything"?
yes, b/c we love it so much when computer programs try to think for us.
They already do in a lot of occasions anyway. Is there a real reason not
to do this? I always hated finding out that some package have
capitalizations for no obvious reasons. MySQL or mysql or Mysql... Being
able to just type yum install mysql without having to worry about the
specifics would be nice.
Rahul
2:27 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 01:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
seth vidal wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 21:03 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:55:34 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote
>>
>>> Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
>>> case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro,
>>> the rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions
>>> need to be case sensitive.
>> How about "try case sensitive first, and insensitive if the first does
>> not turn up anything"?
>
> yes, b/c we love it so much when computer programs try to think for us.
They already do in a lot of occasions anyway. Is there a real reason not
to do this? I always hated finding out that some package have
capitalizations for no obvious reasons. MySQL or mysql or Mysql... Being
able to just type yum install mysql without having to worry about the
specifics would be nice.
yes, b/c it is a really bad idea.
much like having: rm -rf foo actually be case insensitive.
-sv
2:40 p.m.
seth vidal wrote:
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 01:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> seth vidal wrote:
>> On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 21:03 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:55:34 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote
>>>
>>>> Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
>>>> case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro,
>>>> the rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions
>>>> need to be case sensitive.
>>> How about "try case sensitive first, and insensitive if the first does
>>> not turn up anything"?
>> yes, b/c we love it so much when computer programs try to think for us.
> They already do in a lot of occasions anyway. Is there a real reason not
> to do this? I always hated finding out that some package have
> capitalizations for no obvious reasons. MySQL or mysql or Mysql... Being
> able to just type yum install mysql without having to worry about the
> specifics would be nice.
yes, b/c it is a really bad idea.
much like having: rm -rf foo actually be case insensitive.
I understood you think it is a bad idea but if yum already checks first
to see if there is a perfect match and then does a more fuzzy search, I
don't see a problem with it. There are people who do yum -y remove foo
and then blame yum. I think your rm -rf example is similar.
There is a real need to solve the problem that OP talks about. It has
bitten me more than once including precisely the example cited: Miro. I
am not sure what would be the best solution though. Debian does it by
enforcing lower case on all their packages IIRC.
Rahul
3:05 p.m.
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:10:02 +0530
Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
seth vidal wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 01:49 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> seth vidal wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 21:03 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
>>>> Hi.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:55:34 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote
>>>>
>>>>> Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
>>>>> case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a
miro,
>>>>> the rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions
>>>>> need to be case sensitive.
>>>> How about "try case sensitive first, and insensitive if the first
does
>>>> not turn up anything"?
>>> yes, b/c we love it so much when computer programs try to think for us.
>> They already do in a lot of occasions anyway. Is there a real reason not
>> to do this? I always hated finding out that some package have
>> capitalizations for no obvious reasons. MySQL or mysql or Mysql... Being
>> able to just type yum install mysql without having to worry about the
>> specifics would be nice.
>
> yes, b/c it is a really bad idea.
>
> much like having: rm -rf foo actually be case insensitive.
I understood you think it is a bad idea but if yum already checks first
to see if there is a perfect match and then does a more fuzzy search, I
don't see a problem with it. There are people who do yum -y remove foo
and then blame yum. I think your rm -rf example is similar.
Here's the problem with it: Seth thinks it's a bad idea. He's the
upstream for yum.
josh
p.s. I think it's a bad idea too for what it's worth.
3:27 p.m.
Josh Boyer wrote:
Here's the problem with it: Seth thinks it's a bad idea. He's the
upstream for yum.
This sounds like "because I said so". There needs to be more substantial
arguments beyond gut feelings involved here. If you think something is a
bad idea, it would be good to explain why in a bit more detail if only
because it forces you to think about it a bit or try and offer some
suggestions to solve the problem in another way.
Rahul
4:01 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 02:57 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Josh Boyer wrote:
>
> Here's the problem with it: Seth thinks it's a bad idea. He's the
> upstream for yum.
This sounds like "because I said so". There needs to be more substantial
arguments beyond gut feelings involved here. If you think something is a
bad idea, it would be good to explain why in a bit more detail if only
because it forces you to think about it a bit or try and offer some
suggestions to solve the problem in another way.
I already explained why. You do not play 'do what I mean' games with
software that can nuke your whole box or destroy all your data.
-sv
5:22 p.m.
On Mo November 26 2007, seth vidal wrote:
I already explained why. You do not play 'do what I mean'
games with
software that can nuke your whole box or destroy all your data.
How about making it case unsensitive only when assume-yes (or -y) is not set?
This way the use is always asked whether he really wants this? Or make yum
suggest other packages that are available but differ in case, e.g. printing a
message like "foo is not available, but there is a package Foo".
Regards,
Till
5:27 p.m.
Till Maas wrote:
On Mo November 26 2007, seth vidal wrote:
> I already explained why. You do not play 'do what I mean' games with
> software that can nuke your whole box or destroy all your data.
How about making it case unsensitive only when assume-yes (or -y) is not set?
This way the use is always asked whether he really wants this? Or make yum
suggest other packages that are available but differ in case, e.g. printing a
message like "foo is not available, but there is a package Foo".
Regards,
Till
And people complain that yum is slow now... I can't see this speeding
things up.
Robert 'Bob' Jensen
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen
Fedora Unity Project
http://fedoraunity.org/
KC0WYC
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/AmateurRadio
2:32 a.m.
On Di November 27 2007, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote:
Till Maas wrote:
> How about making it case unsensitive only when assume-yes (or
-y) is not
> set? This way the use is always asked whether he really wants this? Or
> make yum suggest other packages that are available but differ in case,
> e.g. printing a message like "foo is not available, but there is a
> package Foo".
And people complain that yum is slow now... I can't see this
speeding
things up.
This is faster than having to restart yum two more times, once to search for
the real case and once to install it.
Regards,
Till
2:37 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 09:32 +0100, Till Maas wrote:
On Di November 27 2007, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote:
> Till Maas wrote:
> > How about making it case unsensitive only when assume-yes (or -y) is not
> > set? This way the use is always asked whether he really wants this? Or
> > make yum suggest other packages that are available but differ in case,
> > e.g. printing a message like "foo is not available, but there is a
> > package Foo".
> And people complain that yum is slow now... I can't see this speeding
> things up.
This is faster than having to restart yum two more times, once to search for
the real case and once to install it.
then don't start it twice:
yum shell
search blah
install BlaH
run
that's it.
-sv
7:56 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 13:43 +0100, Till Maas wrote:
On Di November 27 2007, seth vidal wrote:
> then don't start it twice:
> yum shell
>
> > search blah
> > install BlaH
> > run
>
> that's it.
Ah, this looks usefull. Is it possible to use --skip-broken update
or --security update in yum shell?
just pass the options on the command line beforehand
yum --skip-broken --security shell
-sv
7:22 p.m.
2007/11/27, seth vidal <skvidal(a)fedoraproject.org>:
>
> This is faster than having to restart yum two more times, once to search for
> the real case and once to install it.
>
then don't start it twice:
yum shell
> search blah
> install BlaH
> run
Is it becoming slower if using bash-completion? I think it can handle
case well. And in PackageKit 1.4 release-notes it says "New features:
- Install the bash completion file so it works by default (Richard
Hughes)". see http://hughsient.livejournal.com/48043.html
--
bbbush ^_^
4 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 02:10 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I understood you think it is a bad idea but if yum already checks
first
to see if there is a perfect match and then does a more fuzzy search, I
don't see a problem with it. There are people who do yum -y remove foo
and then blame yum. I think your rm -rf example is similar.
There is a real need to solve the problem that OP talks about. It has
bitten me more than once including precisely the example cited: Miro. I
am not sure what would be the best solution though. Debian does it by
enforcing lower case on all their packages IIRC.
Yes and that is what we should do - enforce lower case on all packages.
Policy problems should be handled in policy, not by adding crack to
software.
-sv
5:33 p.m.
On Nov 26, 2007 1:00 PM, seth vidal <skvidal(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Yes and that is what we should do - enforce lower case on all
packages.
Policy problems should be handled in policy, not by adding crack to
software.
I think your right, I think we get into less trouble long term by
making this a policy fix instead of a psuedo technical fix. Unless we
can make a commitment all the way down the stack into the rpmdb to be
case insensitive for all package name operations, then we shouldn't
plaster over it by making yum install/remove case insensitive.
And besides, moving to all lowercase for package names mean that I can
finally navigate the bugzilla component pulldown menu reliably :->
Or turning the question on its head, is there anyone working on making
the syntax of yum searches more expressive so that I could do things
like requesting a case sensitive search?
-jef
7:52 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 14:33 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Or turning the question on its head, is there anyone working on
making
the syntax of yum searches more expressive so that I could do things
like requesting a case sensitive search?
As seth already pointed out, the main innocuous commands are already
case insensitive. So search, list etc.
--
James Antill <james.antill(a)redhat.com>
Red Hat
9:39 p.m.
On Nov 26, 2007 4:52 PM, James Antill <james.antill(a)redhat.com> wrote:
As seth already pointed out, the main innocuous commands are
already
case insensitive. So search, list etc.
You missed by point... is anyone working on extending the search
capabilities so that a user could choose to issue case sensitive
searches among other more extensive search logic like and/or logic for
multiple search terms and things of that nature.
-jef
9:52 p.m.
On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 18:39 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Nov 26, 2007 4:52 PM, James Antill <james.antill(a)redhat.com>
wrote:
> As seth already pointed out, the main innocuous commands are already
> case insensitive. So search, list etc.
You missed by point... is anyone working on extending the search
capabilities so that a user could choose to issue case sensitive
searches among other more extensive search logic like and/or logic for
multiple search terms and things of that nature.
Ahh, I see what you mean, for some reason I read your query as asking
for case insensitive search.
The 3.2.8 version will come with case sensitive highlighting of search
terms[1], and yum already searches for multiple terms if you give them
(as does yum list).
But, no, noone is thinking about extending the yum search command
atm. ... although the yum python module has a well defined API for
search.
[1] Although this is mainly an implementation detail that re.escape()
and re.sub() don't allow case insensitive operation, I can't see that
being fixed ... and so could be regarded as a feature :).
--
James Antill <james.antill(a)redhat.com>
Red Hat
5:45 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:52:50 -0500
James Antill <james.antill(a)redhat.com> wrote:
The 3.2.8 version will come with case sensitive highlighting of
search terms[1], and yum already searches for multiple terms if you
give them (as does yum list).
Yes, but it searches for term1 OR term2. More often than not I'd
prefer AND.
Michal
7:56 a.m.
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 12:45 +0100, Michal Schmidt wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:52:50 -0500
James Antill <james.antill(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> The 3.2.8 version will come with case sensitive highlighting of
> search terms[1], and yum already searches for multiple terms if you
> give them (as does yum list).
Yes, but it searches for term1 OR term2. More often than not I'd
prefer AND.
actually, it doesn't.
yum search foo bar baz
will do:
return all packages matching all 3
return all packages matching any 2
return all packages matching 1
in that order.
-sv
4:13 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, seth vidal wrote:
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 02:10 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> I understood you think it is a bad idea but if yum already checks first
> to see if there is a perfect match and then does a more fuzzy search, I
> don't see a problem with it. There are people who do yum -y remove foo
> and then blame yum. I think your rm -rf example is similar.
>
> There is a real need to solve the problem that OP talks about. It has
> bitten me more than once including precisely the example cited: Miro. I
> am not sure what would be the best solution though. Debian does it by
> enforcing lower case on all their packages IIRC.
Yes and that is what we should do - enforce lower case on all packages.
Policy problems should be handled in policy, not by adding crack to
software.
Amen. I hate typing WeIRdPaCKageNaMEs as much as the next guy, but
depsolvers guess package names is not a good idea. Someboy wants it bad
enough, it should be easy enough to write yum-didyoumean plugin that does
elaborate guesswork and offers near matches "Did you mean foo?" ala
Google.
Can we finally have the lower case on package names policy?
Pretty please?
- Panu -
8:40 a.m.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 01:30:03PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:13:37 +0200 (EET), Panu Matilainen wrote:
> Can we finally have the lower case on package names policy?
> Pretty please?
I remember we've discussed that long ago. Who remembers the details?
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2006-December/msg00110....
with a link to the relevant section of the IRC log. The bottom line
seemed to be that it needed more discussion.
-- Sarantis
10:05 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:40:54 +0200, Sarantis Paskalis wrote:
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 01:30:03PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:13:37 +0200 (EET), Panu Matilainen wrote:
>
> > Can we finally have the lower case on package names policy?
> > Pretty please?
>
> I remember we've discussed that long ago. Who remembers the details?
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2006-December/msg00110....
with a link to the relevant section of the IRC log. The bottom line
seemed to be that it needed more discussion.
Hmmm...
I thought about a time even longer ago. Either around fedora.us or
when revisiting existing guidelines for Fedora Extras 3.
5:41 p.m.
On Nov 27, 2007 4:05 PM, Michael Schwendt
<mschwendt.tmp0701.nospam(a)arcor.de> wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:40:54 +0200, Sarantis Paskalis wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 01:30:03PM +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:13:37 +0200 (EET), Panu Matilainen wrote:
> >
> > > Can we finally have the lower case on package names policy?
> > > Pretty please?
> >
> > I remember we've discussed that long ago. Who remembers the details?
>
> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-maintainers/2006-December/msg00110....
>
> with a link to the relevant section of the IRC log. The bottom line
> seemed to be that it needed more discussion.
Hmmm...
I thought about a time even longer ago. Either around fedora.us or
when revisiting existing guidelines for Fedora Extras 3.
see my comment above... :D
--
fedora-devel-list mailing list
fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
7:48 a.m.
Panu Matilainen wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, seth vidal wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 02:10 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
>> I understood you think it is a bad idea but if yum already checks first
>> to see if there is a perfect match and then does a more fuzzy search, I
>> don't see a problem with it. There are people who do yum -y remove foo
>> and then blame yum. I think your rm -rf example is similar.
>>
>> There is a real need to solve the problem that OP talks about. It has
>> bitten me more than once including precisely the example cited: Miro. I
>> am not sure what would be the best solution though. Debian does it by
>> enforcing lower case on all their packages IIRC.
>
> Yes and that is what we should do - enforce lower case on all packages.
>
> Policy problems should be handled in policy, not by adding crack to
> software.
Amen. I hate typing WeIRdPaCKageNaMEs as much as the next guy, but
depsolvers guess package names is not a good idea. Someboy wants it bad
enough, it should be easy enough to write yum-didyoumean plugin that
does elaborate guesswork and offers near matches "Did you mean foo?" ala
Google.
Can we finally have the lower case on package names policy? Pretty please?
Kind of late in the game to ask for that without providing a means to
keep working as the change is implemented by each packager separately,
isn't it? The existing dependencies aren't going to all be fixed on the
same day.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
8:21 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Kind of late in the game to ask for that without providing a means to
keep working as the change is implemented by each packager separately,
isn't it? The existing dependencies aren't going to all be fixed on the
same day.
The method was already provided earlier in this thread. Just add a
additional provides with all lowercase in between the transition period.
Rahul
8:46 a.m.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 07:51:04PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
>
>Kind of late in the game to ask for that without providing a means to
>keep working as the change is implemented by each packager separately,
>isn't it? The existing dependencies aren't going to all be fixed on the
>same day.
The method was already provided earlier in this thread. Just add a
additional provides with all lowercase in between the transition period.
Better: change rpm name to lower-case and use a provides: tag for the
old mixed-case name.
You can also do a repoquery to find all packages that require: the old
name and switch them over.
--
Michael
10:51 a.m.
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
>
> Kind of late in the game to ask for that without providing a means to
> keep working as the change is implemented by each packager separately,
> isn't it? The existing dependencies aren't going to all be fixed on
> the same day.
The method was already provided earlier in this thread. Just add a
additional provides with all lowercase in between the transition period.
And the advantage of distributing all this work and making it be done in
a certain order over just forcing case insensitivity would be?
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
10:51 a.m.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Les Mikesell wrote:
>
>>
>> Kind of late in the game to ask for that without providing a means to
>> keep working as the change is implemented by each packager
>> separately, isn't it? The existing dependencies aren't going to all
>> be fixed on the same day.
>
> The method was already provided earlier in this thread. Just add a
> additional provides with all lowercase in between the transition period.
And the advantage of distributing all this work and making it be done in
a certain order over just forcing case insensitivity would be?
Forcing case insensitivity in what? The packages or yum? Seth Vidal
already explained his view point that case insensitivity should be
decided as policy within Fedora packaging guidelines and I have given
you one example of how to transition over if that decision is made since
you asked whether it is too late to do so.
Rahul
10:55 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:51:26 -0600
Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
And the advantage of distributing all this work and making it be
done
in a certain order over just forcing case insensitivity would be?
If you care about things being found with lower case, the best way to
accomplish that is to make everything lower case. Otherwise you're
going to have differences in yum, vs rpm, vs ls, vs http, vs....
--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
11:13 a.m.
Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:51:26 -0600
Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> And the advantage of distributing all this work and making it be done
> in a certain order over just forcing case insensitivity would be?
If you care about things being found with lower case, the best way to
accomplish that is to make everything lower case. Otherwise you're
going to have differences in yum, vs rpm, vs ls, vs http, vs....
Agreed, but that's clearly not the case and this isn't a new concept.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
4:03 p.m.
Am Dienstag, den 27.11.2007, 11:55 -0500 schrieb Jesse Keating:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:51:26 -0600
Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> And the advantage of distributing all this work and making it be done
> in a certain order over just forcing case insensitivity would be?
If you care about things being found with lower case, the best way to
accomplish that is to make everything lower case. Otherwise you're
going to have differences in yum, vs rpm, vs ls, vs http, vs....
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But search is already case insensitive.
When is this useful? When the user is guessing package names?
4:03 p.m.
On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 23:03 +0100, nodata wrote:
Am Dienstag, den 27.11.2007, 11:55 -0500 schrieb Jesse Keating:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:51:26 -0600
> Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And the advantage of distributing all this work and making it be done
> > in a certain order over just forcing case insensitivity would be?
>
> If you care about things being found with lower case, the best way to
> accomplish that is to make everything lower case. Otherwise you're
> going to have differences in yum, vs rpm, vs ls, vs http, vs....
>
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> fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
But search is already case insensitive.
When is this useful? When the user is guessing package names?
list is case insensitive so if the person knows the name but not the
case they can find it.
search is also case insensitive but it doesn't just match against
package nevra like list does.
And neither of those commands modify things on your system.
thats why we can be looser with the input we accept.
-sv
2:48 p.m.
Hi.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:27:50 -0500, seth vidal wrote
yes, b/c it is a really bad idea.
much like having: rm -rf foo actually be case insensitive.
Bonus points for argumentation. Find counterexample and postulate
generality.
Oh, and that above is dependant on the underlying file system.
3:03 p.m.
Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
Hi.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:27:50 -0500, seth vidal wrote
> yes, b/c it is a really bad idea.
>
> much like having: rm -rf foo actually be case insensitive.
Bonus points for argumentation. Find counterexample and postulate
generality.
This would make yum as confusing to use as a Mac. Oh wait...
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
7:58 p.m.
Hi.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:27:50 -0500, seth vidal wrote
> yes, b/c it is a really bad idea.
>
> much like having: rm -rf foo actually be case insensitive.
Bonus points for argumentation. Find counterexample and postulate
generality.
Oh, and that above is dependant on the underlying file system.
Not that we are worrying about cygwin... but it turns out that
$ touch TEST
$ rm test
The file TEST is removed. rm has everything to do with the underlying
filesystem.
My thought on this topic is... if yum is asked to install mysql and the
package name is actually MySQL... it should make a suggestion like:
Could not find package 'mysql'. Would you like to install package
'MySQL' instead? [y/N]
Perhaps someone could come up with a better wording for it. I do not
think this approach would add much time to yum. Perhaps someone with
more knowledge on the implementation of yum could confirm this.
5:17 a.m.
>>>> "KF" == Kautz, Frederick
<fkautz(a)pseudocode.cc> writes:
KF> Not that we are worrying about cygwin... but it turns out that
KF> $ touch TEST $ rm test
KF> The file TEST is removed. rm has everything to do with the
KF> underlying filesystem.
KF> My thought on this topic is... if yum is asked to install
KF> mysql and the package name is actually MySQL... it should make
KF> a suggestion like:
KF> Could not find package 'mysql'. Would you like to install
KF> package 'MySQL' instead? [y/N]
More annoying user interaction. yum is already horrible that way. And
yum -y isn't the answer, because that lets yum go crazy without
considering any consequences.
If yum install foo on an x86_64 installed exactly foo.x86_64 if no
dependencies were needed, that would be perfect. Otherwise it should
just fail and spit out a list of needed dependencies. Then the user
can run it with something like yum install --withdependencies foo, and
it would do the right thing without asking questions. Again, if it
needed to upgrade something, it would fail and give a list of what it
needed.
Unix command line software does what it's told or fails. It doesn't
ask for permission.
/Benny
(Yes I hate the rm -i thing too. mv should fail when asked to
overwrite though.)
2:35 p.m.
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
seth vidal wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-11-26 at 21:03 +0100, Ralf Ertzinger wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:55:34 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote
>>
>>> Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
>>> case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro,
>>> the rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions
>>> need to be case sensitive.
>> How about "try case sensitive first, and insensitive if the first does
>> not turn up anything"?
>
> yes, b/c we love it so much when computer programs try to think for us.
They already do in a lot of occasions anyway. Is there a real reason not
to do this? I always hated finding out that some package have
capitalizations for no obvious reasons. MySQL or mysql or Mysql... Being
able to just type yum install mysql without having to worry about the
specifics would be nice.
Good plan! And while we are at it we should make yum remove case sensitive too,
people will get really confused if "yum install StrANgECaps" works but "yum
remove StrANgECaps" won't, so for consistency we really should make yum remove
case insensitive too.
Regards,
Hans
2:37 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:35:40 +0100
Hans de Goede <j.w.r.degoede(a)hhs.nl> wrote:
Good plan! And while we are at it we should make yum remove case
sensitive too, people will get really confused if "yum install
StrANgECaps" works but "yum remove StrANgECaps" won't, so for
consistency we really should make yum remove case insensitive too.
Or instead we make policy that any package that has WiErDCasIng have a
Provides: nameinlower. Of course this will bloat the metadata somewhat.
--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
4:49 p.m.
Am Montag, den 26.11.2007, 21:03 +0100 schrieb Ralf Ertzinger:
Hi.
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:55:34 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote
> Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
> case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro,
> the rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions
> need to be case sensitive.
How about "try case sensitive first, and insensitive if the first does
not turn up anything"?
How about: human learns that yum/unix/linux is case sensitive, doesn't
make mistake again.
3:04 p.m.
So I have another idea. I still believe that just making installing in
yum case insensitive would be a good idea, but we can make something
like "yum suggestions". Example:
# yum install perl-TExt-CharWidth
No package perl-TExt-CharWidth available.
(didn't you mean perl-Text-CharWidth?)
Yum wouldn't install a package itself, but just suggest to an user
that "sorry man, you made a mistake". That should make everybody happy
and shouldn't be difficult to implement too.
And we could add a new option to yum.conf file: "sensitiveness=1". Can
be changed to "=1" if anybody like.
2007/11/26, Jesse Keating <jkeating(a)redhat.com>:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:50:46 +0100
"Michał Bentkowski" <mr.ecik(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi!
> Recently, a funny thing happened on Polish Fedora forum. Some users
> were talking about Miro but rest of them weren't able even to install
> that... After some time it turned out that they tried to type "yum
> install miro" instead of "yum install Miro".
> So my question is the same as in the topic: should "yum install" be
> case sensitive?
> I haven't checked but I'm quite sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that
> there are no packages in repo whose names differ in letter size.
> What's more: "yum list" command is case insensitive and there's
> nothing wrong with it, is there? I know that you can say that these
> users I wrote about in the beginning should have used "yum list" first
> and then they would have found out why things went wrong but it makes
> a need to type more and more commands.
> "yum install" gives a summary what packages are going to be installed
> so if a user wanted to run "Foo", but not "foo" she/he could
break the
> installation.
> Besides, pressing SHIFT key could be painful ;-)
> So my proposal is to make "yum install" (and probably "yum
update" as
> well) case insensitive.
> Just think about it :)
Search is case insensitive, list is a search. However packages are
case sensitive. While we don't /currently/ have a Miro and a miro, the
rpm database would allow for it, thus install/removal actions need to
be case sensitive. We could try for some brutal packaging policy that
demands all package names be in lower case, but I doubt that would fly
very far.
--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours?
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Michał Bentkowski
mr.ecik(a)gmail.com
2:10 p.m.
Michał Bentkowski wrote:
Hi!
Recently, a funny thing happened on Polish Fedora forum. Some users
were talking about Miro but rest of them weren't able even to install
that... After some time it turned out that they tried to type "yum
install miro" instead of "yum install Miro".
So my question is the same as in the topic: should "yum install" be
case sensitive?
I haven't checked but I'm quite sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that
there are no packages in repo whose names differ in letter size.
What's more: "yum list" command is case insensitive and there's
nothing wrong with it, is there? I know that you can say that these
users I wrote about in the beginning should have used "yum list" first
and then they would have found out why things went wrong but it makes
a need to type more and more commands.
"yum install" gives a summary what packages are going to be installed
so if a user wanted to run "Foo", but not "foo" she/he could break
the
installation.
Besides, pressing SHIFT key could be painful ;-)
So my proposal is to make "yum install" (and probably "yum update"
as
well) case insensitive.
Just think about it :)
Regards.
I would suggest that if this is done it would be extremely important to force
all package names to lower case. Typing 'yum install foo' with a case
insensitive yum and getting both Foo and foo would be a broken situation. Lets
assume they each bring in different dependencies... how do you choose one and
not the other? With multiple repositories you cannot assume this won't happen.
I have wished package maintainers would just go with lower case for a long
time... directory listings of packages end up with essentially two separate
alphabetical listings (all upper case names first). The mixture of case in perl
package names is especially annoying.
(but watch out for the panic as we go suggesting something so redmondish as not
respecting a file's case!)
--
Andrew Farris <lordmorgul(a)gmail.com> <ajfarris(a)gmail.com>
gpg 0xC99B1DF3 at pgp.mit.edu
No one now has, and no one will ever again get, the big picture. - Daniel Geer
---- ----
7:06 a.m.
mån 2007-11-26 klockan 20:50 +0100 skrev Michał Bentkowski:
So my proposal is to make "yum install" (and probably
"yum update" as
well) case insensitive.
Isn't this best left to the GUI tools (pirut, PackageKit, whatever)?
In those tools it's natural to search for a package and then click on
the result and install it. This is the equivalent of "search miro;
install Miro" in yum shell, but with a GUI that actually encourages the
use of the search functionality.
/abo
7:30 a.m.
On Nov 26, 2007 7:50 PM, Michał Bentkowski <mr.ecik(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi!
Recently, a funny thing happened on Polish Fedora forum. Some users
were talking about Miro but rest of them weren't able even to install
that... After some time it turned out that they tried to type "yum
install miro" instead of "yum install Miro".
So my question is the same as in the topic: should "yum install" be
case sensitive?
I haven't checked but I'm quite sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that
there are no packages in repo whose names differ in letter size.
What's more: "yum list" command is case insensitive and there's
nothing wrong with it, is there? I know that you can say that these
users I wrote about in the beginning should have used "yum list" first
and then they would have found out why things went wrong but it makes
a need to type more and more commands.
"yum install" gives a summary what packages are going to be installed
so if a user wanted to run "Foo", but not "foo" she/he could break
the
installation.
Besides, pressing SHIFT key could be painful ;-)
So my proposal is to make "yum install" (and probably "yum update"
as
well) case insensitive.
Just think about it :)
quite funny that this mixed and upper case package name discussion
flames up again. if you look hard on the net you will find a few
emails on various lists of mine pointing out the usability drawbacks
of the upper/mixed case situation like 5 years ago.
kind regards,
Rudolf Kastl
p.s. i share your view ;)
Regards.
--
Michał Bentkowski
mr.ecik(a)gmail.com
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6003
days inactive
6005
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52 comments
25 participants
participants (25)
-
Alexander Boström -
Andrew Farris -
Benny Amorsen -
Bill Nottingham -
Frederick Kautz -
Hans de Goede -
James Antill -
Jef Spaleta -
Jesse Keating -
Josh Boyer -
Les Mikesell -
Michael E Brown -
Michael Schwendt -
Michal Schmidt -
Michał Bentkowski -
nodata -
Panu Matilainen -
Rahul Sundaram -
Ralf Ertzinger -
Robert 'Bob' Jensen -
Rudolf Kastl -
Sarantis Paskalis -
Seth Vidal -
Till Maas -
Yuan Yijun