3:46 a.m.
Do the Fedora guidelines allow packaging of software that will show
advertisement to the user?
Are there any existing packages that already do that?
Kai
3:52 a.m.
On 02/12/2014 10:46 AM, Kai Engert wrote:
Do the Fedora guidelines allow packaging of software that will show
advertisement to the user?
I think it's difficult define what precisely is an advertisement, but I
hope Fedora will be able to avoid this trap, particularly because
advertising is so much about tracking users these days.
Are there any existing packages that already do that?
Install mozilla-noscript and run:
$ sandbox -t sandbox_web_t -X firefox
You will see visually obnoxious nag screen. The Mozilla tab might
qualify as an ad as well.
There is also the Emacs startup screen, but I find it less invasive.
--
Florian Weimer / Red Hat Product Security Team
4:59 a.m.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:52:27AM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote:
>Do the Fedora guidelines allow packaging of software that will
show
>advertisement to the user?
I think it's difficult define what precisely is an advertisement,
but I hope Fedora will be able to avoid this trap, particularly
because advertising is so much about tracking users these days.
So, let's make this concrete. Mozilla has announced that Firefox will sell
default links on the "tiles" page. The exact mechanism for this is unclear
-- will it be more like a web browser with ads on its default start page, or
will it be more like adware? Will the trademark guidelines allow us to turn
this off (or, point to resources for Fedora users!) without renaming the
package?
We can currently ship our own bookmarks (I don't know the details, but I
believe that this is by permission -- a downstream distribution can't do so
without also asking for permission, and in fact may be in violation of they
ship _our_ bookmarks without asking separately, although I don't think that
has ever been made into an issue in practice), and this might just be
similar. But maybe not. We should get clarification.
$ sandbox -t sandbox_web_t -X firefox
You will see visually obnoxious nag screen. The Mozilla tab might
qualify as an ad as well.
There is also the Emacs startup screen, but I find it less invasive.
These things are basically self-promotion for the thing itself. I think
that's a different category.
--
Matthew Miller -- Fedora Project -- <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
6:11 a.m.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:08:20PM +0000, Petr Pisar wrote:
> Are there any existing packages that already do that?
vim advertises ICCF to make a donation for children in Uganda.
Even leaving aside the whole charity / good cause vs. selling consumer goods
aspect, I think a message about donations buried in the help is also a
completely different case.
--
Matthew Miller -- Fedora Project -- <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
6:23 a.m.
Le mercredi 12 février 2014 à 07:11 -0500, Matthew Miller a écrit :
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:08:20PM +0000, Petr Pisar wrote:
> > Are there any existing packages that already do that?
> vim advertises ICCF to make a donation for children in Uganda.
Even leaving aside the whole charity / good cause vs. selling consumer goods
aspect, I think a message about donations buried in the help is also a
completely different case.
On Fedora, it is in the help.
On Debian, it is directly on the start when you open a empty file.
So I am not sure which one is the default, there is no obvious patchs to
enable or disable it in our packages and on Debian side.
--
Michael Scherer
7:14 a.m.
On 02/12/2014 01:23 PM, Michael Scherer wrote:
Le mercredi 12 février 2014 à 07:11 -0500, Matthew Miller a écrit :
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:08:20PM +0000, Petr Pisar wrote:
>>> Are there any existing packages that already do that?
>> vim advertises ICCF to make a donation for children in Uganda.
>
> Even leaving aside the whole charity / good cause vs. selling consumer goods
> aspect, I think a message about donations buried in the help is also a
> completely different case.
On Fedora, it is in the help.
On Debian, it is directly on the start when you open a empty file.
It seems to me that this is a result of your local configuration. I
have not customized vim on either system, and for me the startup screen
looks pretty much the same.
--
Florian Weimer / Red Hat Product Security Team
8:57 a.m.
On 2014-02-12, Michael Scherer <misc(a)zarb.org> wrote:
Le mercredi 12 février 2014 à 07:11 -0500, Matthew Miller a écrit :
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:08:20PM +0000, Petr Pisar wrote:
> > > Are there any existing packages that already do that?
> > vim advertises ICCF to make a donation for children in Uganda.
>
> Even leaving aside the whole charity / good cause vs. selling consumer goods
> aspect, I think a message about donations buried in the help is also a
> completely different case.
On Fedora, it is in the help.
On Debian, it is directly on the start when you open a empty file.
So I am not sure which one is the default, there is no obvious patchs to
enable or disable it in our packages and on Debian side.
Maybe out-dated localization. I can see the text at welcome screen in
cs_CZ.UTF-8 locale in Fedora, although there is nothing like that in
en_US.UTF-8 locale.
-- Petr
3:17 a.m.
Petr Pisar <ppisar(a)redhat.com> writes:
On 2014-02-12, Michael Scherer <misc(a)zarb.org> wrote:
> Le mercredi 12 février 2014 à 07:11 -0500, Matthew Miller a écrit :
>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:08:20PM +0000, Petr Pisar wrote:
>> > > Are there any existing packages that already do that?
>> > vim advertises ICCF to make a donation for children in Uganda.
>>
>> Even leaving aside the whole charity / good cause vs. selling consumer goods
>> aspect, I think a message about donations buried in the help is also a
>> completely different case.
>
> On Fedora, it is in the help.
> On Debian, it is directly on the start when you open a empty file.
>
> So I am not sure which one is the default, there is no obvious patchs to
> enable or disable it in our packages and on Debian side.
>
Maybe out-dated localization. I can see the text at welcome screen in
cs_CZ.UTF-8 locale in Fedora, although there is nothing like that in
en_US.UTF-8 locale.
It's actually a bit more fun. Part of welcome screen is randomized :-)
Alternating text:
1. Become a registered Vim user!
2. Sponsor Vim development!
3. Help poor children in Uganda!
With pointers for each alternative
--
Stanislav Ochotnicky <sochotnicky(a)redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Developer Experience
PGP: 7B087241
Red Hat Inc. http://cz.redhat.com
7:40 a.m.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:46:13 +0100,
Kai Engert <kaie(a)kuix.de> wrote:
Do the Fedora guidelines allow packaging of software that will show
advertisement to the user?
If the software is free software, we should be able to remove the ad code.
We might need to do some additional changes to avoid trademark problems.
8:36 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Mi, 2014-02-12 at 10:46 +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
Do the Fedora guidelines allow packaging of software that will show
advertisement to the user?
Are there any existing packages that already do that?
There are multiple open questions that need answers. I wanted to get the
first question answered first, but since the discussion has already
started to discuss consequences, let's get the questions and potential
consequence spelled out and discussed separately.
This discussion is trigged by http://lwn.net/Articles/585577/
Question (1)
Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
I'm partly guessing here. I suspect that showing advertisements doesn't
mean showing things that were decided at build time, but rather content
that is dynamically decided to be delivered by Mozilla.
I think this question should be answered first, and independently of
other questions.
Question (2)
Is the Fedora community willing to accept Mozilla's desire to show
advertisements in Firefox?
This might depend on the amount and kind of advertisement that will be
shown. The information we've received so far in the public blog doesn't
clarify this yet:
https://blog.mozilla.org/advancingcontent/2014/02/11/publisher-transforma...
Only if the answer to at least one of the questions (1) or (2) is "no",
then we must discuss the other questions:
Question (3)
Does removing the advertisement feature of Firefox violate the
trademark?
We don't know the answer yet, and this will probably require a statement
from Mozilla.
Only if answer for question (3) were "yes", we'd need to look into
removing the trademarks, and how exactly to do it (whether we'd do it on
your own, or if we'd work with another project that already does that).
Personally, my initial reaction is disappointment that the free software
project I've been contributing to since 2001 considers to use it as a
mechanism to deliver advertisement, but I'd like to wait with my final
judgement until we hear more details.
Kai
8:39 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:36:00PM +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
Question (1)
Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
I think this might need to be broken down or clarified. Otherwise, any web
browser is out.
--
Matthew Miller -- Fedora Project -- <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
8:43 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Mi, 2014-02-12 at 09:39 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:36:00PM +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
> Question (1)
> Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
> advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
I think this might need to be broken down or clarified. Otherwise, any web
browser is out.
Clarification:
"Load and show advertisement without the user having navigated to a site
that triggers loading of the advertisement."
Kai
8:44 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:36:00PM +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
> Question (1)
> Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
> advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
I think this might need to be broken down or clarified. Otherwise, any web
browser is out.
I think you need to also clarify what "advertisements" mean.
Otherwise you'll get people playing wordsmith saying e.g. a
software-installer tool is advertising some applications over others
and is disallowed.
Really, I think this needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis.
josh
3:57 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 12 February 2014 14:44, Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:36:00PM +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
>> Question (1)
>> Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
>> advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
>
> I think this might need to be broken down or clarified. Otherwise, any web
> browser is out.
I think you need to also clarify what "advertisements" mean.
Otherwise you'll get people playing wordsmith saying e.g. a
software-installer tool is advertising some applications over others
and is disallowed.
It wouldn't really be playing wordsmith, the application installer (or
whatever it's called) is talked about in terms of advertising
applications, it seems to be part of it's philosophy (though the word
'promote' has been more common). If it's just a case of Fedora wants
to control what advertising goes on in Fedora then that's not that
much different from Canonical or iTunes. If it's about third parties
tracking users I think that's a different and stronger argument about
privacy.
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
8:47 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:36:00PM +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
On Mi, 2014-02-12 at 10:46 +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
> Do the Fedora guidelines allow packaging of software that will show
> advertisement to the user?
>
> Are there any existing packages that already do that?
There are multiple open questions that need answers. I wanted to get the
first question answered first, but since the discussion has already
started to discuss consequences, let's get the questions and potential
consequence spelled out and discussed separately.
This discussion is trigged by http://lwn.net/Articles/585577/
Question (1)
Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
I think "allowed" is probably the wrong term to use here. Fedora
packaging rules on what is allowed to be included have pretty much
focused on legality of packages. ie licensing, trademarks, patents,
etc. The question of whether advertisements are "allowed" is starting
to venture into the grounds of philosophy. There's probably also a
privacy question to answer here too. To me though, those aren't
criteria for forbidding software from Fedora entirely, but are
relevant when choosing whether a piece of software is set as the
default option installed for users.
Regards,
Daniel
--
|: http://berrange.com -o- http://www.flickr.com/photos/dberrange/ :|
|: http://libvirt.org -o- http://virt-manager.org :|
|: http://autobuild.org -o- http://search.cpan.org/~danberr/ :|
|: http://entangle-photo.org -o- http://live.gnome.org/gtk-vnc :|
9:31 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
>
> Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
> advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
I think "allowed" is probably the wrong term to use here. Fedora
packaging rules on what is allowed to be included have pretty much
focused on legality of packages. ie licensing, trademarks, patents,
etc. The question of whether advertisements are "allowed" is starting
to venture into the grounds of philosophy. There's probably also a
privacy question to answer here too. To me though, those aren't
criteria for forbidding software from Fedora entirely, but are
relevant when choosing whether a piece of software is set as the
default option installed for users.
Yeah, I agree. This is not about being allowed to, but the question is
whether we want to. And for that, the question probably is: it depends.
I can't imagine having very obnoxious and prominents advertisements in
the flagship applications that we install by default. But an application
that is otherwise useful to our users should probably not be banned from
the package universe just because it downloads an ad.
9:47 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/12/2014 04:31 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>>
>> Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
>> advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
>
> I think "allowed" is probably the wrong term to use here. Fedora
> packaging rules on what is allowed to be included have pretty much
> focused on legality of packages. ie licensing, trademarks, patents,
> etc. The question of whether advertisements are "allowed" is starting
> to venture into the grounds of philosophy. There's probably also a
> privacy question to answer here too. To me though, those aren't
> criteria for forbidding software from Fedora entirely, but are
> relevant when choosing whether a piece of software is set as the
> default option installed for users.
Yeah, I agree. This is not about being allowed to, but the question is
whether we want to. And for that, the question probably is: it depends.
I can't imagine having very obnoxious and prominents advertisements in
the flagship applications that we install by default. But an application
that is otherwise useful to our users should probably not be banned from
the package universe just because it downloads an ad.
If that ad enables tracking users, or is obnoxious in any way, the
software should be modified to not include the ad.
I believe a major advantage of a free distribution like Fedora, over an
app store like Android's, is that it tries to do what's best for the
users, not developers and advertisers. Let's not change that, please.
--
Petr³
9:58 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature by
default.
Actually, unless it tracks users, i don't think that our guidelines forbids
it, though it may influence our choice for the packages set installed by
default.
Has anyone tried to contact Mozilla Corporation about it so we may discuss
this based on facts ?
H.
10:14 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/12/2014 11:28 AM, H. Guémar wrote:
My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature
by
default.
+1
Actually, unless it tracks users, i don't think that our
guidelines
forbids it, though it may influence our choice for the packages set
installed by default.
I accept some kind of prepackaged links if Mozilla doesn't allow the
removal, if they point to web services and no traditional contextual ads
(buy, buy, buy), and if (mandatory) any asset needed to show those links
(thumbnails) are prepackaged and distributed with the binary (that could
generate problems with logos and trademarks) or it is downloaded form
Mozilla servers without ever sending information to third party ad servers
Has anyone tried to contact Mozilla Corporation about it so we may
discuss this based on facts ?
H.
10:25 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 16:58 +0100, H. Guémar wrote:
My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature
by default.
On a side note, why not disable also Google as the default searchbox
engine and replace it with a non-profit one?
(I'm not stating my opinion here, just trying to figure which is our
overall attitude against promoted default brands on software we deliver
to users.)
10:31 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/12/2014 11:55 AM, Nikos Roussos wrote:
On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 16:58 +0100, H. Guémar wrote:
> My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature
> by default.
On a side note, why not disable also Google as the default searchbox
engine and replace it with a non-profit one?
Rhythmbox includes commercial radio stations (that support open codecs
at least), I only want assurance that there is no tracking (downloading
images) by third parties if the user never click on that links
(I'm not stating my opinion here, just trying to figure which is our
overall attitude against promoted default brands on software we deliver
to users.)
10:32 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 18:25:48 +0200,
Nikos Roussos <comzeradd(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 16:58 +0100, H. Guémar wrote:
> My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature
> by default.
On a side note, why not disable also Google as the default searchbox
engine and replace it with a non-profit one?
(I'm not stating my opinion here, just trying to figure which is our
overall attitude against promoted default brands on software we deliver
to users.)
I think the difference is that google search isn't used until you actually
do a search. So you can not use it fairly easily. Connecting to web pages
before you get a chance to disable that feature is a privacy problem unless
those web pages are local copies. I already have a problem with firefox
loading a mozilla page after update. (You can turn this off, but it isn't
well documented.) I also have a problem with doing revocation lookups
to check for revoked certificates by default. And for that matter with
loading the Fedora welcome page when you first run firefox of Fedora
systems.
10:40 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 10:32 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 18:25:48 +0200,
Nikos Roussos <comzeradd(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 16:58 +0100, H. Guémar wrote:
>> My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature
>> by default.
>
>On a side note, why not disable also Google as the default searchbox
>engine and replace it with a non-profit one?
>
>(I'm not stating my opinion here, just trying to figure which is our
>overall attitude against promoted default brands on software we deliver
>to users.)
I think the difference is that google search isn't used until you actually
do a search. So you can not use it fairly easily. Connecting to web pages
before you get a chance to disable that feature is a privacy problem unless
those web pages are local copies.
You don't connect to these pages. You just see their logos. I don't know
yet if that would be a local copy or not.
1:17 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 10:32 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 18:25:48 +0200,
Nikos Roussos <comzeradd(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 16:58 +0100, H. Guémar wrote:
>> My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature
>> by default.
>
>On a side note, why not disable also Google as the default searchbox
>engine and replace it with a non-profit one?
>
>(I'm not stating my opinion here, just trying to figure which is our
>overall attitude against promoted default brands on software we deliver
>to users.)
I think the difference is that google search isn't used until you actually
do a search. So you can not use it fairly easily. Connecting to web pages
before you get a chance to disable that feature is a privacy problem unless
those web pages are local copies. I already have a problem with firefox
loading a mozilla page after update. (You can turn this off, but it isn't
well documented.) I also have a problem with doing revocation lookups
to check for revoked certificates by default. And for that matter with
loading the Fedora welcome page when you first run firefox of Fedora
systems.
Well ok if we go down this road, then you should also ask to disable the
not very well know call home to check for malware feature. That feature
means every Mozilla browser *always* pings Google to check for
blacklisted sites and I am not sure what it sends there.
Unfortunately you have to go in about:config to change anything about
that IIRC.
Simo.
--
Simo Sorce * Red Hat, Inc * New York
1:29 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 14:17:28 -0500,
Simo Sorce <simo(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Well ok if we go down this road, then you should also ask to disable the
not very well know call home to check for malware feature. That feature
means every Mozilla browser *always* pings Google to check for
blacklisted sites and I am not sure what it sends there.
Yes I think that should also be disabled by default.
Unfortunately you have to go in about:config to change anything about
that IIRC.
Yes I do that. I look through about:config for urls and remove almost
all of them.
1:30 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 02:17:28PM -0500, Simo Sorce wrote:
Well ok if we go down this road, then you should also ask to disable
the
not very well know call home to check for malware feature. That feature
means every Mozilla browser *always* pings Google to check for
blacklisted sites and I am not sure what it sends there.
Unfortunately you have to go in about:config to change anything about
that IIRC.
This is slightly different too. The safe browsing list itself is not a ping
-- it's only pulled down and checked locally. There's only a "ping"
when
there is a match, and that ping uses a hashed partial copy. Google also
claims in a FAQ that log data is "retained only for a period of weeks",
although notably they don't say this in the actual privacy policy (which has
been subsumed into the Chrome browser privacy policy).
--
Matthew Miller -- Fedora Project -- <mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
1:45 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/12/2014 08:30 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
This is slightly different too. The safe browsing list itself is not
a ping
-- it's only pulled down and checked locally. There's only a "ping"
when
there is a match, and that ping uses a hashed partial copy. Google also
claims in a FAQ that log data is "retained only for a period of weeks",
although notably they don't say this in the actual privacy policy (which has
been subsumed into the Chrome browser privacy policy).
If they don't track users, why do they set a cookie that expires in two
years? This doesn't add up.
--
Florian Weimer / Red Hat Product Security Team
10:34 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 16:58:34 +0100
H. Guémar <hguemar(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature
by default.
+1
Actually, unless it tracks users, i don't think that our
guidelines
forbids it, though it may influence our choice for the packages set
installed by default.
Has anyone tried to contact Mozilla Corporation about it so we may
discuss this based on facts ?
H.
Another thing to determine: who can purchase ad-space from Mozilla? Are
our users going to get ads from Canonical or Windows? Of course, this
question goes away if the functionality is disabled or removed, but
something to keep in mind.
// Roshi
1:10 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/12/2014 04:58 PM, H. Guémar wrote:
My *personal* opinion is that we should disable this kind of feature
by
default.
My personal opinion is to ban and remove such features and not only to
disable it by fault. firefox's defaults also should be altered to point
to an "empty home page" shouldn't this already be the case.
Actually, unless it tracks users, i don't think that our
guidelines
forbids it, though it may influence our choice for the packages set
installed by default.
IIRC, "call-home" functions already are strongly
frowned upon in
Fedora's FPG - Not worth mention the NSA scandal, which has caused at
in Europe has caused many users to consider call-home and tracking to be
euphemisms for espionage and breaches of privacy.
Ralf
10:20 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 16:47 +0100, Petr Viktorin wrote:
On 02/12/2014 04:31 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>>>
>>> Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
>>> advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
>>
>> I think "allowed" is probably the wrong term to use here. Fedora
>> packaging rules on what is allowed to be included have pretty much
>> focused on legality of packages. ie licensing, trademarks, patents,
>> etc. The question of whether advertisements are "allowed" is starting
>> to venture into the grounds of philosophy. There's probably also a
>> privacy question to answer here too. To me though, those aren't
>> criteria for forbidding software from Fedora entirely, but are
>> relevant when choosing whether a piece of software is set as the
>> default option installed for users.
>
> Yeah, I agree. This is not about being allowed to, but the question is
> whether we want to. And for that, the question probably is: it depends.
>
> I can't imagine having very obnoxious and prominents advertisements in
> the flagship applications that we install by default. But an application
> that is otherwise useful to our users should probably not be banned from
> the package universe just because it downloads an ad.
If that ad enables tracking users, or is obnoxious in any way, the
software should be modified to not include the ad.
The "New Tab" feature will provide quick access to popular sites in the
users location, without any collection of personal data (except of
course from checking the location of his IP). At lease this is the
current design by Mozilla.
https://twitter.com/clarkbw/status/433333066514198528
~nikos
8:28 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
Le Mer 12 février 2014 17:20, Nikos Roussos a écrit :
The "New Tab" feature will provide quick access to popular
sites in the
users location, without any collection of personal data (except of
course from checking the location of his IP). At lease this is the
current design by Mozilla.
And that opens the door to tracking hell.
--
Nicolas Mailhot
8:47 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 15:28 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mer 12 février 2014 17:20, Nikos Roussos a écrit :
> The "New Tab" feature will provide quick access to popular sites in the
> users location, without any collection of personal data (except of
> course from checking the location of his IP). At lease this is the
> current design by Mozilla.
And that opens the door to tracking hell.
How is that? I don't the feature either but it has nothing to do with
tracking.
https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2014/02/13/content-ads-caution/
10:23 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 16:47:38 +0200,
Nikos Roussos <comzeradd(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 15:28 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le Mer 12 février 2014 17:20, Nikos Roussos a écrit :
>
> > The "New Tab" feature will provide quick access to popular sites in
the
> > users location, without any collection of personal data (except of
> > course from checking the location of his IP). At lease this is the
> > current design by Mozilla.
>
> And that opens the door to tracking hell.
How is that? I don't the feature either but it has nothing to do with
tracking.
The fact that the package is calling home (whether or not the location
of the IP is checked), is a form of tracking. Particularly since firefox
updates are being handled by Fedora and there is no need for our version
to be calling home to check for updates.
1:01 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 10:23 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 16:47:38 +0200,
Nikos Roussos <comzeradd(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 15:28 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>> Le Mer 12 février 2014 17:20, Nikos Roussos a écrit :
>>
>> > The "New Tab" feature will provide quick access to popular sites
in the
>> > users location, without any collection of personal data (except of
>> > course from checking the location of his IP). At lease this is the
>> > current design by Mozilla.
>>
>> And that opens the door to tracking hell.
>
>How is that? I don't the feature either but it has nothing to do with
>tracking.
The fact that the package is calling home (whether or not the location
of the IP is checked), is a form of tracking. Particularly since firefox
updates are being handled by Fedora and there is no need for our version
to be calling home to check for updates.
*If* it calls home. If this is a predefined list bundled with firefox
there is no reason to call home.
3:52 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 09:01:15PM +0200, Nikos Roussos wrote:
> The fact that the package is calling home (whether or not the
location
> of the IP is checked), is a form of tracking. Particularly since firefox
> updates are being handled by Fedora and there is no need for our version
> to be calling home to check for updates.
*If* it calls home. If this is a predefined list bundled with firefox
there is no reason to call home.
The currently available bits of information suggest otherwise:
What information will Mozilla provide sponsored content partners
from
the Directory Tiles?
Mozilla is putting together just the basic metrics that marketers or
content publishers might need to understand the value they are
receiving. As of now, our expectation is that we’ll be delivering the
number of impressions (how many times a tile was shown) and
interactions (how many interactions with a tile, i.e. clicks).
taken from:
https://blog.mozilla.org/advancingcontent/2014/02/13/more-details-on-dire...
10:39 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
Le Jeu 13 février 2014 15:47, Nikos Roussos a écrit :
On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 15:28 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le Mer 12 février 2014 17:20, Nikos Roussos a écrit :
>
> > The "New Tab" feature will provide quick access to popular sites in
> the
> > users location, without any collection of personal data (except of
> > course from checking the location of his IP). At lease this is the
> > current design by Mozilla.
>
> And that opens the door to tracking hell.
How is that? I don't the feature either but it has nothing to do with
tracking.
As soon as you start doing ad selection based on any processing of the
user context (location, past history, whatever) you are in data mining,
privacy invasion and tracker land. Especially if part or all of the
processing is moved to the cloud (such a nice name for we-own-your-data
reality).
Of course ad people don't want to hear this because their effectiveness
depends on such processing. And it's always one more "harmless" processing
rule at at time, never one less.
--
Nicolas Mailhot
1:03 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 17:39 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Jeu 13 février 2014 15:47, Nikos Roussos a écrit :
> On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 15:28 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>> Le Mer 12 février 2014 17:20, Nikos Roussos a écrit :
>>
>> > The "New Tab" feature will provide quick access to popular sites
in
>> the
>> > users location, without any collection of personal data (except of
>> > course from checking the location of his IP). At lease this is the
>> > current design by Mozilla.
>>
>> And that opens the door to tracking hell.
>
> How is that? I don't the feature either but it has nothing to do with
> tracking.
As soon as you start doing ad selection based on any processing of the
user context (location, past history, whatever) you are in data mining,
privacy invasion and tracker land.
As long as you start browsing and create "browsing history" you'll never
see these promotions again. You assume things that Mozilla explicitly
says that this feature won't do.
1:26 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:31:04 -0500
Matthias Clasen <mclasen(a)redhat.com> wrote:
I can't imagine having very obnoxious and prominents
advertisements in
the flagship applications that we install by default. But an
application that is otherwise useful to our users should probably not
be banned from the package universe just because it downloads an ad.
Come on, I mean this is Linux, how many of our users don't know how to
turn them off, if they don't do you want them as part of .next
___
Regards
Frank
frankly3d.com
9:55 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/12/2014 03:36 PM, Kai Engert wrote:
Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
I see no reason why to forbid it (from my POV).
It is always decision of upstream. And either that program is good enough that users will
use it with ads. Or users will
use something else.
We have freedom to do what we want. But we should respect upstream as well.
--
Miroslav Suchy, RHCE, RHCDS
Red Hat, Senior Software Engineer, #brno, #devexp, #fedora-buildsys
5:33 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
From the original post at [1]:
"Directory Tiles will instead suggest pre-packaged content for
first-time users. Some of these tile placements will be from the
Mozilla ecosystem, some will be popular websites in a given geographic
location, and some will be sponsored content from hand-picked partners
to help support Mozilla’s pursuit of our mission. The sponsored tiles
will be clearly labeled as such, while still leading to content we think
users will enjoy."
It does not look like an advertisement to me and IMHO it's perfectly
okay if we or users can change/remove some of them and replace with
Fedora ones. And the titles are regenerated with recently visited
webpages and thus works as a history.
ma.
[1]
https://blog.mozilla.org/advancingcontent/2014/02/11/publisher-transforma...
On 02/12/2014 03:36 PM, Kai Engert wrote:
On Mi, 2014-02-12 at 10:46 +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
> Do the Fedora guidelines allow packaging of software that will show
> advertisement to the user?
>
> Are there any existing packages that already do that?
There are multiple open questions that need answers. I wanted to get the
first question answered first, but since the discussion has already
started to discuss consequences, let's get the questions and potential
consequence spelled out and discussed separately.
This discussion is trigged by http://lwn.net/Articles/585577/
Question (1)
Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
I'm partly guessing here. I suspect that showing advertisements doesn't
mean showing things that were decided at build time, but rather content
that is dynamically decided to be delivered by Mozilla.
I think this question should be answered first, and independently of
other questions.
Question (2)
Is the Fedora community willing to accept Mozilla's desire to show
advertisements in Firefox?
This might depend on the amount and kind of advertisement that will be
shown. The information we've received so far in the public blog doesn't
clarify this yet:
https://blog.mozilla.org/advancingcontent/2014/02/11/publisher-transforma...
Only if the answer to at least one of the questions (1) or (2) is "no",
then we must discuss the other questions:
Question (3)
Does removing the advertisement feature of Firefox violate the
trademark?
We don't know the answer yet, and this will probably require a statement
from Mozilla.
Only if answer for question (3) were "yes", we'd need to look into
removing the trademarks, and how exactly to do it (whether we'd do it on
your own, or if we'd work with another project that already does that).
Personally, my initial reaction is disappointment that the free software
project I've been contributing to since 2001 considers to use it as a
mechanism to deliver advertisement, but I'd like to wait with my final
judgement until we hear more details.
Kai
8:35 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/13/2014 12:33 PM, Martin Stransky wrote:
From the original post at [1]:
"Directory Tiles will instead suggest pre-packaged content for
first-time users. Some of these tile placements will be from the
Mozilla ecosystem, some will be popular websites in a given geographic
location, and some will be sponsored content from hand-picked partners
to help support Mozilla’s pursuit of our mission. The sponsored tiles
will be clearly labeled as such, while still leading to content we think
users will enjoy."
To me this reads as the common blabber/gossip, we are used to hear from
marketeers - They all pretend to their stuff was "fair" and
"interesting".
These people haven't realized the "in-app" "ad-model" is a dying
species, because user are tired of being molested, cheated, exploited
and being spied out.
Harsh words, I know, but that's just what I think about it.
Ralf
3:38 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
----- Original Message -----
From the original post at [1]:
"Directory Tiles will instead suggest pre-packaged content for
first-time users. Some of these tile placements will be from the
Mozilla ecosystem, some will be popular websites in a given geographic
location, and some will be sponsored content from hand-picked partners
to help support Mozilla’s pursuit of our mission. The sponsored tiles
will be clearly labeled as such, while still leading to content we think
users will enjoy."
It does not look like an advertisement to me and IMHO it's perfectly
okay if we or users can change/remove some of them and replace with
Fedora ones. And the titles are regenerated with recently visited
webpages and thus works as a history.
Yeah, this is the way I understand it. If we will be allowed to change it,
I can imagine we can use it in a good way to point our users to Fedora
sites as bookmarks do now.
As I agree we should deal with this situation case by case - can we
check with Mozilla, if we would be allowed to change these tiles first?
Jaroslav
ma.
[1]
https://blog.mozilla.org/advancingcontent/2014/02/11/publisher-transforma...
On 02/12/2014 03:36 PM, Kai Engert wrote:
> On Mi, 2014-02-12 at 10:46 +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
>> Do the Fedora guidelines allow packaging of software that will show
>> advertisement to the user?
>>
>> Are there any existing packages that already do that?
>
> There are multiple open questions that need answers. I wanted to get the
> first question answered first, but since the discussion has already
> started to discuss consequences, let's get the questions and potential
> consequence spelled out and discussed separately.
>
> This discussion is trigged by http://lwn.net/Articles/585577/
>
> Question (1)
>
> Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
> advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
>
> I'm partly guessing here. I suspect that showing advertisements doesn't
> mean showing things that were decided at build time, but rather content
> that is dynamically decided to be delivered by Mozilla.
>
> I think this question should be answered first, and independently of
> other questions.
>
> Question (2)
>
> Is the Fedora community willing to accept Mozilla's desire to show
> advertisements in Firefox?
>
> This might depend on the amount and kind of advertisement that will be
> shown. The information we've received so far in the public blog doesn't
> clarify this yet:
>
https://blog.mozilla.org/advancingcontent/2014/02/11/publisher-transforma...
>
> Only if the answer to at least one of the questions (1) or (2) is "no",
> then we must discuss the other questions:
>
> Question (3)
>
> Does removing the advertisement feature of Firefox violate the
> trademark?
>
> We don't know the answer yet, and this will probably require a statement
> from Mozilla.
>
> Only if answer for question (3) were "yes", we'd need to look into
> removing the trademarks, and how exactly to do it (whether we'd do it on
> your own, or if we'd work with another project that already does that).
>
> Personally, my initial reaction is disappointment that the free software
> project I've been contributing to since 2001 considers to use it as a
> mechanism to deliver advertisement, but I'd like to wait with my final
> judgement until we hear more details.
>
> Kai
>
>
--
devel mailing list
devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
10:04 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:36:00PM +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
Question (2)
Is the Fedora community willing to accept Mozilla's desire to show
advertisements in Firefox?
Sub-question (2b):
Why do we care about using the Firefox trademark? We should just
rename the package. Debian do that and it hasn't hurt them. It makes
the software more free because we don't have to beg someone to be able
to make changes.
Rich.
--
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
Fedora Windows cross-compiler. Compile Windows programs, test, and
build Windows installers. Over 100 libraries supported.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW
10:10 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On February 13, 2014 6:04:01 PM EET, "Richard W.M. Jones"
<rjones(a)redhat.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:36:00PM +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
> Question (2)
>
> Is the Fedora community willing to accept Mozilla's desire to show
> advertisements in Firefox?
Sub-question (2b):
Why do we care about using the Firefox trademark? We should just
rename the package. Debian do that and it hasn't hurt them. It makes
the software more free because we don't have to beg someone to be able
to make changes.
Rich.
--
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat
http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
Fedora Windows cross-compiler. Compile Windows programs, test, and
build Windows installers. Over 100 libraries supported.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW
--
devel mailing list
devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Because people will keep looking for Firefox at the Software app. I don't think we
have to change the name if we just turn off a feature. Same way we alter the default
homepage all these years.
--
~nikos
10:19 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 16:04:01 +0000,
"Richard W.M. Jones" <rjones(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Sub-question (2b):
Why do we care about using the Firefox trademark? We should just
rename the package. Debian do that and it hasn't hurt them. It makes
the software more free because we don't have to beg someone to be able
to make changes.
This has come up in the past and the answer is that as a project we care.
The issue was different in that discussion, so it might turn on it this
case we don't care enough to not override this change.
10:41 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
Why do we care about using the Firefox trademark? We should just
rename the package. Debian do that and it hasn't hurt them.
Debian has different core values than Fedora does. The relevent
Fedora value is this one:
Friends
We believe success comes from a strong community, made of people
from around the world, working together. There's a place in Fedora
for anyone who supports our values and wants to help. By
collaborating with each other openly and transparently, and with a
strong, supportive partnership with our sponsors, we can achieve
great things.
The Firefox project is part of our community. If we change their
package and discard their branding, we alienate part of our community.
11:56 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/13/2014 05:41 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
> Why do we care about using the Firefox trademark? We should just
> rename the package. Debian do that and it hasn't hurt them.
Debian has different core values than Fedora does. The relevent
Fedora value is this one:
Friends
We believe success comes from a strong community, made of people
from around the world, working together. There's a place in Fedora
for anyone who supports our values and wants to help. By
collaborating with each other openly and transparently, and with a
strong, supportive partnership with our sponsors, we can achieve
great things.
The Firefox project is part of our community. If we change their
package and discard their branding, we alienate part of our community.
A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me, hardly is
my friend.
Ralf
12:21 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me, hardly
is my friend.
Those are strong words, and based mostly on here-say. Even the Fedora
installer "molests you with ads" for various non-default packages.
Should we ban the installer? Of course not.
There are specific issues that we are going to be worried about here,
but the key word is "worry", not "act". Firefox is proposing a
feature and assuring us that it's safe and respectful. Until we have
proof (or even evidence) that it's otherwise, we should refrain from
acting prematurely, and instead stick to what our values say we should
do.
1:03 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 13:21 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote:
> A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me,
hardly
> is my friend.
Those are strong words, and based mostly on here-say. Even the Fedora
installer "molests you with ads" for various non-default packages.
Those aren't advertisements; the developers of the software in question
have not paid anything to have them placed there (no-one has paid anyone
anything to have them placed there, well, other than Red Hat paying the
anaconda developers who wrote the code that displays them). They were
drawn by the Fedora artwork / design teams, AIUI, based on nothing more
ominous than their perception of what information people installing
Fedora might find useful. Mostly they exist because the installation
screen is very boring without them.
The fact that they're images in the shape of a long short rectangle does
not make them "advertisements". :)
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
1:05 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 11:03 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
in the shape of a long short rectangle
sometimes, I wonder what goes on in my brain.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
http://www.happyassassin.net
11:56 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/13/2014 07:21 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
> A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me, hardly
> is my friend.
Those are strong words, and based mostly on here-say. Even the Fedora
installer "molests you with ads" for various non-default packages.
Should we ban the installer? Of course not.
I am referring to app/programs, which are accessing remote sites for
not-required purposes, such as to present a ads and to propagate local
data to remote sites for technically not-required purposes.
There are specific issues that we are going to be worried about
here,
but the key word is "worry", not "act". Firefox is proposing a
feature
IMO, tt's technically unnecessary feature, whose primary purpose it is
to circumvent ad-blockers and allow Mozilla to make money with personal
data. To me, this is an undertaking directed directly against Mozilla's
users, which at least leaves an uneasy smell.
and assuring us that it's safe and respectful.
Well, too
many incidents have taught users not to trust anybody on the
internet. We are reading about breaches of privacy, tracking, espionage
and ads being abused for malware almost every day.
Incident of today: Shazam on Android is reported to be geo-tracking and
harvesting contacts + propagating this data to dubious enterprises.
Until we have
proof (or even evidence) that it's otherwise, we should refrain from
acting prematurely, and instead stick to what our values say we should
do.
My opinion is contrary to what you say. I feel you are trying to play
low Mozilla's plans.
Ralf
12:40 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
Hi
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me, hardly
is my
friend.
That certainly goes way too far. We have assurance from Mozilla that there
is no spying or tracking going on here and we have yet to see what form of
sponsored content they are going to be engaging in but lets discuss this
calmly and deal with real issues as they pop up rather than assume the
worst without any real evidence. If there is a need to patch something out
and if that cannot happen without a rename as opposed to an extension by
default or config tweak or some other arrangement, *then* we can discuss
our options at that point.
Rahul
12:50 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
Le Jeu 13 février 2014 19:40, Rahul Sundaram a écrit :
Hi
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me, hardly is
> my
> friend.
That certainly goes way too far. We have assurance from Mozilla that
there
is no spying or tracking going on here
How can they give any assurance? Unless the targets of those ads are
hosted by mozilla, all it takes to track people is for one of the
advertisers to read its server logs. Surely one does not need an
engineering degree to realise
user processing in the browser + advertiser logs (of the ad picture or the
ad link) = tracking by the advertiser of all people that match the
processing rules
--
Nicolas Mailhot
1:11 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
Hi
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
How can they give any assurance? Unless the targets of those ads are
hosted by mozilla...
Maybe that is exactly what they are going to do? They haven't published all
of their plans yet and when they do, we can very well verify that it is
done in an appropriate manner. Let's put a hold on this discussion until
that point.
Rahul
2:23 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 14:11:38 -0500,
Rahul Sundaram <metherid(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>
> How can they give any assurance? Unless the targets of those ads are
> hosted by mozilla...
Maybe that is exactly what they are going to do? They haven't published all
of their plans yet and when they do, we can very well verify that it is
done in an appropriate manner. Let's put a hold on this discussion until
that point.
Hosting by mozilla is a problem to (though less so). The actually referenced
resources would all need to be local to prevent tracking.
3:24 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 13 February 2014 18:50, Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot(a)laposte.net> wrote:
Le Jeu 13 février 2014 19:40, Rahul Sundaram a écrit :
> Hi
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>
>> A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me, hardly is
>> my
>> friend.
>
>
> That certainly goes way too far. We have assurance from Mozilla that
> there
> is no spying or tracking going on here
How can they give any assurance? Unless the targets of those ads are
hosted by mozilla, all it takes to track people is for one of the
advertisers to read its server logs. Surely one does not need an
engineering degree to realise
user processing in the browser + advertiser logs (of the ad picture or the
ad link) = tracking by the advertiser of all people that match the
processing rules
Fedora actually already packages software that would allow third
parties to track users, it's called yum and it makes requests to
mirrors who could determine what release and software you had
installed and rough geographical location. So context is important.
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
12:08 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/13/2014 07:50 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Jeu 13 février 2014 19:40, Rahul Sundaram a écrit :
> Hi
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>
>> A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me, hardly is
>> my
>> friend.
>
>
> That certainly goes way too far. We have assurance from Mozilla that
> there
> is no spying or tracking going on here
How can they give any assurance? Unless the targets of those ads are
hosted by mozilla, all it takes to track people is for one of the
advertisers to read its server logs.
Exactly.
Beside this, IMO, the FLOSS community needs to set a
non-misunderstandable sign that Ads are not welcome.
Technically, Mozilla could easily support this by adding a
configure-time option to disable building-in their in-app-ads.
It's up to them to do so, something I'd consider as an indication of
them to play fair - If they do, I'll shut up. If not ..., well time for
fedora to switch to a firefox fork and leave Mozilla alone.
Ralf
5:12 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 14 February 2014 06:08, Ralf Corsepius <rc040203(a)freenet.de> wrote:
On 02/13/2014 07:50 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>
>
> Le Jeu 13 février 2014 19:40, Rahul Sundaram a écrit :
>>
>> Hi
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>
>>> A party who is molesting me with ads and tries to spy on me, hardly is
>>> my
>>> friend.
>>
>>
>>
>> That certainly goes way too far. We have assurance from Mozilla that
>> there
>> is no spying or tracking going on here
>
>
> How can they give any assurance? Unless the targets of those ads are
> hosted by mozilla, all it takes to track people is for one of the
> advertisers to read its server logs.
Exactly.
Beside this, IMO, the FLOSS community needs to set a non-misunderstandable
sign that Ads are not welcome.
Even the Fedora home page has a hosting sponsor link (though Gnome and
FSF don't). I think there's quite a lot of premature overreaction
going on here. Provided it's been done in a secure manner this is
basically just providing a set of bookmarks, which will actually
disappear once you start browsing the web. Mozilla is not Shazam,
they're still controlled by a NPO, they've been pushing free software
and open standards for over a decade. If they can find a way to get
continued funding and less reliance on Google without compromising
their principles that's a good thing (hmm, an open source organisation
with one major commercial sponsor, sounds familiar).
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
11:55 a.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On 02/13/2014 05:04 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 03:36:00PM +0100, Kai Engert wrote:
> Question (2)
>
> Is the Fedora community willing to accept Mozilla's desire to show
> advertisements in Firefox?
Sub-question (2b):
Why do we care about using the Firefox trademark?
I don't know. IIRC, the last
time this discussion had come up, the
discussion was shot down with an explaination, I recall as "Red Hat
wants it"
Ralf
7:09 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
Kai Engert wrote:
Are we allowed to ship software in Fedora that dynamically loads
advertisements from the web and shows them to users?
Not sure, but it's really not a nice thing for software to do.
Is the Fedora community willing to accept Mozilla's desire to
show
advertisements in Firefox?
This is a particular case because Firefox is our default browser on almost
all our spins (only the KDE spin defaults to Konqueror+KWebKitPart). Given
that, IMHO, it is completely unacceptable for Firefox to show ads (that
aren't part of the websites the user asked to visit, obviously).
Our default-installed software definitely shouldn't be carrying ads. The
other stuff, I'd prefer if it didn't either.
Kevin Kofler
8:39 p.m.
New subject: advertisement in packaged software (e.g. Firefox)
On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 02:09:29 +0100,
Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at> wrote:
This is a particular case because Firefox is our default browser on almost
all our spins (only the KDE spin defaults to Konqueror+KWebKitPart). Given
that, IMHO, it is completely unacceptable for Firefox to show ads (that
aren't part of the websites the user asked to visit, obviously).
I think XFCE uses Midori instead of Firefox.
3717
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61 comments
29 participants
participants (29)
-
Adam Williamson -
Bruno Wolff III -
Daniel P. Berrange -
DJ Delorie -
Florian Weimer -
Frank Murphy -
Haïkel -
Ian Malone -
Jaroslav Reznik -
Josh Boyer -
Kai Engert -
Kevin Kofler -
Lars Seipel -
Martin Stransky -
Matthew Miller -
Matthias Clasen -
Michael Scherer -
Mike Ruckman -
Miroslav Suchý -
Nicolas Mailhot -
Nikos Roussos -
Petr Pisar -
Petr Viktorin -
Rahul Sundaram -
Ralf Corsepius -
Richard W.M. Jones -
Robert Marcano -
Simo Sorce -
Stanislav Ochotnicky