On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek(a)redhat.com>
> I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to have
it till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.
Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has
nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding weight
in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely bring it up
So my opinion is *worthless*? Wow. I don't have words for how awful that
is. Despite the apparent *worthlessness* of my words, I'm still going to
take the time to reply cordially, because I hope you will learn to see my
point of view on this.
> First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify
what you're responding to.
First, would you please not tell people what to do, what to write, and
what to *censor?*
I top-post when there is nothing to reply, or when I'm replying to
everything instead of a single sentence. It is my problem how do I reply,
where I believe that it's very clear and readable. Funny enough I could say
that you should reply better too, cause your emails are dropping the whole
I'm following the mailing list guidelines
this is an HTML email, though only because I'm replying to an existing HTML
email). I'm replying to relevant parts because mail lists tie emails
together into a thread that can be visible in digests as well as on the web
view of the list in lists.fedoraproject.org.
> I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this
for a while
now, and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond
mentioning it a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as
we've generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far.
However, this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that
we recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.
> I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been
evolving in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the
fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software
as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of
> If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus
should be improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has
happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these
voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years
ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and
fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one
has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?
> Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I
don't know anything about any efforts to make the C# world better
integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java
better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden.
So last year of my 12h/day or more of work is not stepping up. Okay.
As I *also* said, I have no idea what is going on in regards to .NET Core
in Fedora. I even do sit in the IRC channel but I don't learn much from
there (there's not much going on there). It's not for a lack of trying, I
just literally don't see any information anywhere about what's going on.
For example, I *still* don't know what's the holdup for bringing .NET Core
into Fedora proper. Last time I checked into it, it was because LLVM 4.0
wasn't supported, but that seems to no longer be the case? And we also now
have versioned LLVM packages for things that can't keep up (like .NET
Core). So, I don't know why we don't have .NET Core in Fedora itself.
There are many people in Red Hat spending their free time on Fedora
all the new netcore technologies into Fedora - guess who's working on
That's fantastic! Someone should talk about it! Like maybe on *Fedora
Magazine* or something.
I would like to highlight something here:
"Fedora Developer Portal is a place *for open-source developers,*
providing information about tools, technology and other features that are
packaged in Fedora."
- For Developers who write open-source stuff. It does not mean that the
"tools, technology and other features" have to be open-source. "Packaged
Fedora" I read as "stuff that you can very easily use on Fedora." Rider
a single tarball that works out of the box. Although Eclipse may be
packaged in Fedora, it's not easy to get it to work with netcore and even
when you do, you will experience a lot of issues. The best progress we've
made is teaching Microsoft how to open source and how to licenses, so we
can actually claim that netcore is open source. VSCode may have open source
but the binary is using different license for example. AND we're still
struggling with these issues.
This is a very odd interpretation of that statement. One that I would
hazard to say would be very much out of sync of what most of the Fedora
community believes. "*Packaged in Fedora*" is a very specific statement,
meaning that it is part of the collection of software packages shipped as
RPMs in Fedora, which implies it meets the criteria for inclusion into
Addressing the Visual Studio Code comment: This is not dissimilar to how
Chrome works. The Chrome codebase is open source, but people other than
Google cannot call it Google Chrome, which is why Google prepared the
unbranded "Chromium". I'd hope that Microsoft has a similar "alternate
brand" for VS Code or is willing to grant trademark usage along the same
lines that Mozilla has for Firefox to us.
I should also point out that the order of those things on the page
changed a few weeks ago, when we discovered an issue that makes Eclipse and
VSCode useless, making Rider the only properly working IDE.
What is this issue? Is someone working on it? Any idea when it will be
I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism and I will *not* censor any
information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will tell
the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out that
it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written pointing
out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score.
Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months of my
work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net
What? I'm not telling *you* to shut up about Rider. I'm sure Rider is a
nice IDE. I personally use CLion for some of my C/C++ projects, though
since most of my projects are Python, I use PyCharm quite a bit. But the
focus of Fedora Developer Portal is showing how to use tools *in Fedora* to
do awesome things. And to date, *none* of the JetBrains IDEs (even my
favored PyCharm, which is open source) are available in Fedora. PyCharm is
not mentioned in the Fedora Developer Portal for Python for *exactly* that
reason. Neither is IntelliJ IDEA for Java. Same goes for Android
development using Eclipse or Android Studio, as neither the Android SDK nor
the associated IDE/IDE components are packaged in Fedora.
Others have my words, the info given, feel free to weight pro's
of this censorship and decide. I do not want to participate in this thread
as I am very invested into the topic and my words would not be kind.
 FLOSS-Extremism is pushing "free" while sacrificing the "friends
features first" and the mission statement "for developers."
This is literally the first time I've ever heard of this statement. That
said, I care about *all four* pillars of our philosophy equally. If I
wanted to use a charged phrase, I would, but I will simply point out that
the point of Fedora is to push the boundaries for Free and Open Source
Software. Our philosophy comes from that purpose. In my opinion, it is a
disservice to our users if we push one without any of the other, or vice
versa. That doesn't mean we should make life hard for people who choose to
use non-free software. That is their choice. But one of the reasons *I* am
part of Fedora is to advance FOSS and free culture.
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!