On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek@redhat.com> wrote:
> I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to have it till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.

Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding weight in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely bring it up for discussion.

​So my opinion is worthless? Wow. I don't have words for how awful that is. Despite the apparent worthlessness of my words, I'm still going to take the time to reply cordially, because I hope you will learn to see my point of view on this.​

> First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify what you're responding to.​

First, would you please not tell people what to do, what to write, and what to *censor?*
I top-post when there is nothing to reply, or when I'm replying to everything instead of a single sentence. It is my problem how do I reply, where I believe that it's very clear and readable. Funny enough I could say that you should reply better too, cause your emails are dropping the whole history.

​I'm following the mailing list guidelines (ehh, mostly... this is an HTML email, though only because I'm replying to an existing HTML email). I'm replying to relevant parts because mail lists tie emails together into a thread that can be visible in digests as well as on the web view of the list in lists.fedoraproject.org.​

> ​I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this for a while now, and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond mentioning it a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as we've generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far. However, this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that we recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.​
> ​I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been evolving in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of those things.
> If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus should be improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?
> Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I don't know anything about any efforts to make the C# world better integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden.

So last year of my 12h/day or more of work is not stepping up. Okay.

​As I also said, I have no idea what is going on in regards to .NET Core in Fedora. I even do sit in the IRC channel but I don't learn much from there (there's not much going on there). It's not for a lack of trying, I just literally don't see any information anywhere about what's going on. For example, I still don't know what's the holdup for bringing .NET Core into Fedora proper. Last time I checked into it, it was because LLVM 4.0 wasn't supported, but that seems to no longer be the case? And we also now have versioned LLVM packages for things that can't keep up (like .NET Core). So, I don't know why we don't have .NET Core in Fedora itself.​

There are many people in Red Hat spending their free time on Fedora to get all the new netcore technologies into Fedora - guess who's working on Eclipse.

​That's fantastic! Someone should talk about it! Like maybe on Fedora Magazine or something. ​

I would like to highlight something here:
"Fedora Developer Portal is a place *for open-source developers,* providing information about tools, technology and other features that are packaged in Fedora."
- For Developers who write open-source stuff. It does not mean that the "tools, technology and other features" have to be open-source. "Packaged in Fedora" I read as "stuff that you can very easily use on Fedora." Rider is a single tarball that works out of the box. Although Eclipse may be packaged in Fedora, it's not easy to get it to work with netcore and even when you do, you will experience a lot of issues. The best progress we've made is teaching Microsoft how to open source and how to licenses, so we can actually claim that netcore is open source. VSCode may have open source but the binary is using different license for example. AND we're still struggling with these issues.

​This is a very odd interpretation of that statement. One that I would hazard to say would be very much out of sync of what most of the Fedora community believes. "Packaged in Fedora" is a very specific statement, meaning that it is part of the collection of software packages shipped as RPMs in Fedora, which implies it meets the criteria for inclusion into Fedora.

Addressing the Visual Studio Code comment: This is not dissimilar to how Chrome works. The Chrome codebase is open source, but people other than Google cannot call it Google Chrome, which is why Google prepared the unbranded "Chromium". I'd hope that Microsoft has a similar "alternate brand" for VS Code or is willing to grant trademark usage along the same lines that Mozilla has for Firefox to us.​

I should also point out that the order of those things on the page was changed a few weeks ago, when we discovered an issue that makes Eclipse and VSCode useless, making Rider the only properly working IDE.

​What is this issue? Is someone working on it? Any idea when it will be fixed?​


I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism[1] and I will *not* censor any information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will tell the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out that it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written pointing out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score. Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months of my work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net effort.

​What? I'm not telling you to shut up about Rider. I'm sure Rider is a nice IDE. I personally use CLion for some of my C/C++ projects, though since most of my projects are Python, I use PyCharm quite a bit. But the focus of Fedora Developer Portal is showing how to use tools in Fedora to do awesome things. And to date, none of the JetBrains IDEs (even my favored PyCharm, which is open source) are available in Fedora. PyCharm is not mentioned in the Fedora Developer Portal for Python for exactly that reason.​ Neither is IntelliJ IDEA for Java. Same goes for Android development using Eclipse or Android Studio, as neither the Android SDK nor the associated IDE/IDE components are packaged in Fedora.
Others have my words, the info given, feel free to weight pro's and con's of this censorship and decide. I do not want to participate in this thread as I am very invested into the topic and my words would not be kind.

[1] FLOSS-Extremism is pushing "free" while sacrificing the "friends features first" and the mission statement "for developers."

​This is literally the first time I've ever heard of this statement. That said, I care about all four pillars of our philosophy equally. If I wanted to use a charged phrase, I would, but I will simply point out that the point of Fedora is to push the boundaries for Free and Open Source Software. Our philosophy comes from that purpose. In my opinion, it is a disservice to our users if we push one without any of the other, or vice versa.​ That doesn't mean we should make life hard for people who choose to use non-free software. That is their choice. But one of the reasons I am part of Fedora is to advance FOSS and free culture.

真実はいつも一つ!/ Always, there's only one truth!