@pvalena
> I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to have it till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.

Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding weight in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely bring it up for discussion.

@ngompa13
> First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify what you're responding to.

First, would you please not tell people what to do, what to write, and what to *censor?*

I top-post when there is nothing to reply, or when I'm replying to everything instead of a single sentence. It is my problem how do I reply, where I believe that it's very clear and readable. Funny enough I could say that you should reply better too, cause your emails are dropping the whole history.

> I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this for a while now, and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond mentioning it a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as we've generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far. However, this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that we recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.

> I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been evolving in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of those things.

> If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus should be improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?

> Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I don't know anything about any efforts to make the C# world better integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden.

So last year of my 12h/day or more of work is not stepping up. Okay.

There are many people in Red Hat spending their free time on Fedora to get all the new netcore technologies into Fedora - guess who's working on Eclipse.

I would like to highlight something here:
"Fedora Developer Portal is a place *for open-source developers,* providing information about tools, technology and other features that are packaged in Fedora."

- For Developers who write open-source stuff. It does not mean that the "tools, technology and other features" have to be open-source. "Packaged in Fedora" I read as "stuff that you can very easily use on Fedora." Rider is a single tarball that works out of the box. Although Eclipse may be packaged in Fedora, it's not easy to get it to work with netcore and even when you do, you will experience a lot of issues. The best progress we've made is teaching Microsoft how to open source and how to licenses, so we can actually claim that netcore is open source. VSCode may have open source but the binary is using different license for example. AND we're still struggling with these issues.

I should also point out that the order of those things on the page was changed a few weeks ago, when we discovered an issue that makes Eclipse and VSCode useless, making Rider the only properly working IDE.

I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism[1] and I will *not* censor any information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will tell the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out that it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written pointing out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score. Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months of my work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net effort.

Others have my words, the info given, feel free to weight pro's and con's of this censorship and decide. I do not want to participate in this thread as I am very invested into the topic and my words would not be kind.

[1] FLOSS-Extremism is pushing "free" while sacrificing the "friends features first" and the mission statement "for developers."

Radka

Radka Janeková

.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat

radka.janek@redhat.com

IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Neal Gompa <ngompa13@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek@redhat.com> wrote:
Hi,

Hello Radka,

First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify what you're responding to.

@pvalena please don't remove (or move) anything til we get some answers.

@ngompa13
> It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
> Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
> Fedora

I am not a 'no one' =(
My team will be, step by step: .NET Core first.

I am sorry, I saw nothing that indicated anyone was planning on making any of the Electron-based editor/IDE tools available in the official Fedora repositories. If you do, in fact, plan to bring Visual Studio Code into Fedora, then that's fantastic. But I know of no reason why VSCode depends deeply on .NET Core getting in first. If anything, shouldn't these efforts occur in parallel?

@bex (had countless of conversations about C# on Fedora) & @jflory7 (is using C# on Fedora, knows the problems.) what are your opinions on this? Do we need to make it a council ticket or bring it to council list or something along the lines?
TLDR: JetBrains Rider is not FLOSS and should be pushed below VS Code, Mono, and Eclipse on the developer portal (fedoraloves.net) despite Rider being the only actually capable C# IDE on Linux at this time.

As I see it, we should be unbiased and provide actual information for Developers interested in using Fedora. By doing this, the information will no longer be unbiased. I refuse to provide false, incomplete, or otherwise wrong information. Fedora is Operating System that is targeting developers who need the best IDE available for their work. As of today, Rider is the only IDE capable of working with netcore *and* mono that actually works without any other issues. Eclipse requires either non-floss netcore packages from Microsoft, or hacked up ours to work - and even then it's a *maybe* with uncertain results (it works only with projects created in Eclipse and won't open anything created in any other ide or cli, even with our hacked up packages.) And VS Code is actually in the same boat, as they both use OmniSharp under the hood. MonoDevelop is MonoDevelop, although a good IDE, the title says it all. It's mono-only. So to sum it up, Rider is the only reliable way to work with C# in any Linux, not only Fedora. As a bonus for C# developers who are likely to have either Mac or Windows as well, it's multiplatform and works exactly the same way on all the platforms (even the whole configuration can be shared via nextcloud/dropbox/whatever.) And at least they give free licenses for Open Source projects.

I will point out one very important statement that somehow seems to get forgotten:

"Fedora Developer Portal is a place for open-source developers, providing information about tools, technology and other features that are packaged in Fedora."

This statement didn't come from nowhere. In fact, this is from the home page of the Developer Portal project page.

I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this for a while now, and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond mentioning it a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as we've generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far. However, this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that we recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.

I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been evolving in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of those things.

If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus should be improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?

Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I don't know anything about any efforts to make the C# world better integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden. 😟

--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!