FDP release: C# pages are completely renewed, SciPy includes Jupyter Notebook; statistics included

[Pavel Valena]

Hello everyone,

new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be deployed today by
EOD.

New content
 - Completelly renewed csharp subsection; multiple pages added[1]
     by Radka Janek <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
 - Jupyter Notebook on SciPy page[2] by Brennan Vincello <brennanv03(a)gmail.com&gt;

Updated
 - Links in copr subsection[3] by Frank Dana <ferdnyc(a)gmail.com&gt;
 - Fix in mongodb subsection[4] by Kenneth K Au
<kennethkau(a)users.noreply.github.com&gt;
 - Fix in python subsection[5] by Miro Hrončok <miro(a)hroncok.cz&gt;

[1] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/csharp.html
[2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/python/scipy.html
[3] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/deployment/copr/about.html
[4] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/database/mongodb/about.html

Big thanks to all.

Statistics for last 30 days
 - \
  Jun 17, 2017-Jul 16, 2017                        Pageviews     Unique Pageviews  Avg.
Time on Page
  Total                                            24,086        19,920           
00:01:47
  /                                                2,141(8.89%)  1,768(8.88%)     
00:01:06
  /tech/languages/python/python-installation.html  1,822(7.56%)  1,550(7.78%)     
00:02:24
  /tools/docker/docker-installation.html           932(3.87%)    806(4.05%)       
00:04:05
  /tech.html                                       928(3.85%)    585(2.94%)       
00:00:32
  /tools.html                                      896(3.72%)    642(3.22%)       
00:00:37
  /tech/languages/python/multiple-pythons.html     871(3.62%)    783(3.93%)       
00:02:53
  /tech/languages/nodejs/nodejs.html               790(3.28%)    693(3.48%)       
00:03:03
  /start.html                                      780(3.24%)    423(2.12%)       
00:00:23
  /tech/languages/python/scipy.html                568(2.36%)    503(2.53%)       
00:02:05
  /tech/languages/go/go-installation.html          559(2.32%)    495(2.48%)       
00:03:11


Any feedback is welcome.

Regards,

Pavel Valena
Associate Software Engineer
Brno, Czech Republic

RED HAT | TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED.
All of the airlines in the Fortune Global 500 rely on Red Hat.
Find out why at Trusted | Red Hat

<http://www.redhat.com/en/about/trusted>

[Pavel Valena]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Monday, July 17, 2017 1:35:05 PM
>  Subject: FDP release: C# pages are completely renewed, SciPy includes Jupyter Notebook;
> statistics included
>  
>  Hello everyone,
>  
>  new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be
>  deployed today by EOD.
>  
>  New content
>   - Completelly renewed csharp subsection; multiple pages added[1]
>       by Radka Janek <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt; 
  http://fedoraloves.net

this is rather cool :)

Pavel

>  - Jupyter Notebook on SciPy page[2] by Brennan Vincello
>  <brennanv03(a)gmail.com&gt;
> 
> Updated
>  - Links in copr subsection[3] by Frank Dana <ferdnyc(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  - Fix in mongodb subsection[4] by Kenneth K Au
>  <kennethkau(a)users.noreply.github.com&gt;
>  - Fix in python subsection[5] by Miro Hrončok <miro(a)hroncok.cz&gt;
> 
> [1] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/csharp.html
> [2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/python/scipy.html
> [3] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/deployment/copr/about.html
> [4] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/database/mongodb/about.html
> 
> Big thanks to all.
> 
> Statistics for last 30 days
>  - \
>   Jun 17, 2017-Jul 16, 2017                        Pageviews     Unique
>   Pageviews  Avg. Time on Page
>   Total                                            24,086        19,920
>   00:01:47
>   /                                                2,141(8.89%)  1,768(8.88%)
>   00:01:06
>   /tech/languages/python/python-installation.html  1,822(7.56%)  1,550(7.78%)
>   00:02:24
>   /tools/docker/docker-installation.html           932(3.87%)    806(4.05%)
>   00:04:05
>   /tech.html                                       928(3.85%)    585(2.94%)
>   00:00:32
>   /tools.html                                      896(3.72%)    642(3.22%)
>   00:00:37
>   /tech/languages/python/multiple-pythons.html     871(3.62%)    783(3.93%)
>   00:02:53
>   /tech/languages/nodejs/nodejs.html               790(3.28%)    693(3.48%)
>   00:03:03
>   /start.html                                      780(3.24%)    423(2.12%)
>   00:00:23
>   /tech/languages/python/scipy.html                568(2.36%)    503(2.53%)
>   00:02:05
>   /tech/languages/go/go-installation.html          559(2.32%)    495(2.48%)
>   00:03:11
> 
> 
> Any feedback is welcome.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Pavel Valena
> Associate Software Engineer
> Brno, Czech Republic
> 
> RED HAT | TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED.
> All of the airlines in the Fortune Global 500 rely on Red Hat.
> Find out why at Trusted | Red Hat
> 
> <http://www.redhat.com/en/about/trusted>

FDP release: Added install instructions for Mongo and .NET, NFS tip for Vagrant; statistics included

[Pavel Valena]

Hello everyone,

new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be deployed today by
EOD.

New content
 - NFS tip added on Vagrant page[1] by Josef Strzibny <strzibny(a)strzibny.name&gt;
 - Install instructions added on Mobile application page[2] by Ben Kelsey
<bfkelsey(a)gmail.com&gt;
 - Install instructions added on .NET page[3] by Radka Janek
<radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;

Updated
 - Fix on Abrt page[4] by Arnaud Kleinveld <arnaud.kleinveld(a)ybo.com.sg&gt;
 - Fix on Go page[5] by Tianxiang Xiong <tianxiang.xiong(a)gmail.com&gt;


[1] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tools/vagrant/vagrant-nfs.html
[2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/start/sw/mobile-app/mobile-instal...
[3]
https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/dotnet-inst...
[4] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tools/abrt/about.html
[5] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/go/go-programs.html


Big thanks to all.

Statistics for last 30 days                        
  Jul 31, 2017-Aug 29, 2017                        Pageviews     Unique Pageviews  Avg.
Time on Page
  =========================                        =========     ================ 
=================
  Total                                            25,572        20,914           
00:01:51
  /                                                2,103(8.22%)  1,739(8.32%)     
00:01:03
  /tech/languages/python/python-installation.html  1,370(5.36%)  1,199(5.73%)     
00:02:51
  /tools/docker/docker-installation.html           1,127(4.41%)  966(4.62%)       
00:05:01
  /tech.html                                       1,038(4.06%)  605(2.89%)       
00:00:37
  /tools.html                                      941(3.68%)    634(3.03%)       
00:00:38
  /start.html                                      782(3.06%)    460(2.20%)       
00:00:23
  /tech/database/mongodb/about.html                745(2.91%)    660(3.16%)       
00:05:48
  /tech/languages/nodejs/nodejs.html               693(2.71%)    624(2.98%)       
00:03:16
  /tech/languages/ruby/ror-installation.html       684(2.67%)    544(2.60%)       
00:04:16
  /tech/languages/python/multiple-pythons.html     650(2.54%)    579(2.77%)       
00:03:02


Any feedback is welcome.

Regards,

Pavel Valena
Associate Software Engineer
Brno, Czech Republic

RED HAT | TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED.
All of the airlines in the Fortune Global 500 rely on Red Hat.
Find out why at Trusted | Red Hat

<http://www.redhat.com/en/about/trusted>

FDP release: Added install instructions for Mongo and .NET, NFS tip for Vagrant; statistics included

[Radka Janekova]

(it still isn't out..)


Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*radka.janek(a)redhat.com <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;*
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea


On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hello everyone,
>
>  new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be
>  deployed today by EOD.
>
>  New content
>   - NFS tip added on Vagrant page[1] by Josef Strzibny <
>  strzibny(a)strzibny.name&gt;
>   - Install instructions added on Mobile application page[2] by Ben Kelsey <
>  bfkelsey(a)gmail.com&gt;
>   - Install instructions added on .NET page[3] by Radka Janek <
>  radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>
>  Updated
>   - Fix on Abrt page[4] by Arnaud Kleinveld <arnaud.kleinveld(a)ybo.com.sg&gt;
>   - Fix on Go page[5] by Tianxiang Xiong <tianxiang.xiong(a)gmail.com&gt;
>
>
>  [1] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tools/vagrant/vagrant-nfs.html
>  [2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/start/sw/mobile-app/mobile-
>  installation.html
>  [3] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/dotnet-
>  installation.html
>  [4] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tools/abrt/about.html
>  [5] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/
>  languages/go/go-programs.html
>
>
>  Big thanks to all.
>
>  Statistics for last 30 days
>    Jul 31, 2017-Aug 29, 2017                        Pageviews     Unique
>  Pageviews  Avg. Time on Page
>    =========================                        =========
>   ================  =================
>    Total                                            25,572        20,914
>          00:01:51
>    /                                                2,103(8.22%)
>  1,739(8.32%)      00:01:03
>    /tech/languages/python/python-installation.html  1,370(5.36%)
>  1,199(5.73%)      00:02:51
>    /tools/docker/docker-installation.html           1,127(4.41%)
>  966(4.62%)        00:05:01
>    /tech.html                                       1,038(4.06%)
>  605(2.89%)        00:00:37
>    /tools.html                                      941(3.68%)
>  634(3.03%)        00:00:38
>    /start.html                                      782(3.06%)
>  460(2.20%)        00:00:23
>    /tech/database/mongodb/about.html                745(2.91%)
>  660(3.16%)        00:05:48
>    /tech/languages/nodejs/nodejs.html               693(2.71%)
>  624(2.98%)        00:03:16
>    /tech/languages/ruby/ror-installation.html       684(2.67%)
>  544(2.60%)        00:04:16
>    /tech/languages/python/multiple-pythons.html     650(2.54%)
>  579(2.77%)        00:03:02
>
>
>  Any feedback is welcome.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Pavel Valena
>  Associate Software Engineer
>  Brno, Czech Republic
>
>  RED HAT | TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED.
>  All of the airlines in the Fortune Global 500 rely on Red Hat.
>  Find out why at Trusted | Red Hat
>
>  <http://www.redhat.com/en/about/trusted>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Developer-portal mailing list -- developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to developer-portal-leave@lists.
>  fedoraproject.org
>

FDP release: Added install instructions for Mongo and .NET, NFS tip for Vagrant; statistics included

[Pavel Valena]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Radka Janekova" <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 3:16:19 PM
>  Subject: [Developer-portal] Re: FDP release: Added install instructions for Mongo and
> .NET, NFS tip for Vagrant;
>  statistics included
>  
>  (it still isn't out..) 
You're right. Sorry, I've somehow missed that. I've pushed it now.

Thanks a lot!

Pavel

> 
> 
> Radka
> 
> Radka Janeková
> .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> radka.janek(a)redhat.com
> IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Pavel Valena < pvalena(a)redhat.com > wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be
> deployed today by EOD.
> 
> New content
> - NFS tip added on Vagrant page[1] by Josef Strzibny < strzibny(a)strzibny.name
> >
> - Install instructions added on Mobile application page[2] by Ben Kelsey <
> bfkelsey(a)gmail.com >
> - Install instructions added on .NET page[3] by Radka Janek <
> radka.janek(a)redhat.com >
> 
> Updated
> - Fix on Abrt page[4] by Arnaud Kleinveld < arnaud.kleinveld(a)ybo.com.sg >
> - Fix on Go page[5] by Tianxiang Xiong < tianxiang.xiong(a)gmail.com >
> 
> 
> [1] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tools/vagrant/vagrant-nfs.html
> [2]
> https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/start/sw/mobile-app/mobile-instal...
> [3]
>
https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/dotnet-inst...
> [4] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tools/abrt/about.html
> [5]
> https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/go/go-programs.html
> 
> 
> Big thanks to all.
> 
> Statistics for last 30 days
> Jul 31, 2017-Aug 29, 2017 Pageviews Unique Pageviews Avg. Time on Page
> ========================= ========= ================ =================
> Total 25,572 20,914 00:01:51
> / 2,103(8.22%) 1,739(8.32%) 00:01:03
> /tech/languages/python/python-installation.html 1,370(5.36%) 1,199(5.73%)
> 00:02:51
> /tools/docker/docker-installation.html 1,127(4.41%) 966(4.62%) 00:05:01
> /tech.html 1,038(4.06%) 605(2.89%) 00:00:37
> /tools.html 941(3.68%) 634(3.03%) 00:00:38
> /start.html 782(3.06%) 460(2.20%) 00:00:23
> /tech/database/mongodb/about.html 745(2.91%) 660(3.16%) 00:05:48
> /tech/languages/nodejs/nodejs.html 693(2.71%) 624(2.98%) 00:03:16
> /tech/languages/ruby/ror-installation.html 684(2.67%) 544(2.60%) 00:04:16
> /tech/languages/python/multiple-pythons.html 650(2.54%) 579(2.77%) 00:03:02
> 
> 
> Any feedback is welcome.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Pavel Valena
> Associate Software Engineer
> Brno, Czech Republic
> 
> RED HAT | TRIED. TESTED. TRUSTED.
> All of the airlines in the Fortune Global 500 rely on Red Hat.
> Find out why at Trusted | Red Hat
> 
> < http://www.redhat.com/en/about/trusted >
> _______________________________________________
> Developer-portal mailing list -- developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> developer-portal-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Developer-portal mailing list -- developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> developer-portal-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Pavel Valena]

Hello,

new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be
deployed tomorrow by EOD.

New and updated content
 - C#: IDEs page[1] by Radka Janek <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
                    and Mickael Istria <mistria(a)redhat.com&gt;
 - C#: Mono page[2] by Timotheus Pokorra <pokorra.mailinglists(a)tbits.net&gt;

Fixes
 - Python: introduction page[3] by Jeff Smith <whydoubt(a)gmail.com&gt;
 - Docker: configuration page[4]
           by Lukas Häusermann <lukas.haeusermann(a)adfinis-sygroup.ch&gt;
 - Haskell: Leksah page[5] by Yussuf Khalil <dev(a)pp3345.net&gt;

Thanks to all!
Please check the changes.

[1] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/csharp-ide....
[2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/mono-instal...
[3]
https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/python/python-inst...
[4] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tools/docker/docker-configuration...
[5] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/haskell/leksah.html

Statistics                         
  Oct 1, 2017-Oct 31, 2017	                   Pageviews     Unique Pageviews  Avg. Time on
Page
  =========================                        =========     ================ 
=================
  Total                                            26,285        21,788           
00:02:01
  /                                                2,171(8.26%)  1,730(7.94%)     
00:01:00
  /tech/languages/python/python-installation.html  1,429(5.44%)  1,221(5.60%)     
00:03:02
  /tools/docker/docker-installation.html           1,055(4.01%)  911(4.18%)       
00:04:34
  /tech/database/mongodb/about.html                1,020(3.88%)  906(4.16%)       
00:06:02
  /tech.html                                       996(3.79%)    611(2.80%)       
00:00:33
  /tools.html                                      857(3.26%)    630(2.89%)       
00:00:47
  /start.html                                      848(3.23%)    471(2.16%)       
00:00:21
  /tech/languages/nodejs/nodejs.html               809(3.08%)    717(3.29%)       
00:03:25
  /tech/languages/go/go-installation.html          634(2.41%)    555(2.55%)       
00:03:47
  /tech/languages/python/multiple-pythons.html     621(2.36%)    565(2.59%)       
00:02:51

And as always- any feedback is welcome.

Regards,
Pavel Valena
Associate Software Engineer, Red Hat
Brno, Czech Republic


> Statistics 8/2017
>   Jul 31, 2017-Aug 29, 2017                        Pageviews     Unique
>   Pageviews  Avg. Time on Page
>   =========================                        =========
>   ================  =================
>   Total                                            25,572        20,914
>   00:01:51
>   /                                                2,103(8.22%)  1,739(8.32%)
>   00:01:03
>   /tech/languages/python/python-installation.html  1,370(5.36%)  1,199(5.73%)
>   00:02:51
>   /tools/docker/docker-installation.html           1,127(4.41%)  966(4.62%)
>   00:05:01
>   /tech.html                                       1,038(4.06%)  605(2.89%)
>   00:00:37
>   /tools.html                                      941(3.68%)    634(3.03%)
>   00:00:38
>   /start.html                                      782(3.06%)    460(2.20%)
>   00:00:23
>   /tech/database/mongodb/about.html                745(2.91%)    660(3.16%)
>   00:05:48
>   /tech/languages/nodejs/nodejs.html               693(2.71%)    624(2.98%)
>   00:03:16
>   /tech/languages/ruby/ror-installation.html       684(2.67%)    544(2.60%)
>   00:04:16
>   /tech/languages/python/multiple-pythons.html     650(2.54%)    579(2.77%)
>   00:03:02

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hello,
>
>  new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be
>  deployed tomorrow by EOD.
>
>  New and updated content
>   - C#: IDEs page[1] by Radka Janek <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>                      and Mickael Istria <mistria(a)redhat.com&gt;
>   - C#: Mono page[2] by Timotheus Pokorra <pokorra.mailinglists(a)tbits.net&gt;
>
>  Fixes
>   - Python: introduction page[3] by Jeff Smith <whydoubt(a)gmail.com&gt;
>   - Docker: configuration page[4]
>             by Lukas Häusermann <lukas.haeusermann(a)adfinis-sygroup.ch&gt;
>   - Haskell: Leksah page[5] by Yussuf Khalil <dev(a)pp3345.net&gt;
>
>  Thanks to all!
>  Please check the changes.
>  
Why are we referencing JetBrains' proprietary Rider in our developer
documentation? It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
Fedora (but at least it is open source), but this is straight-up
advocating for nonfree software, which entirely _not the point_ of
Fedora Developer site.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Pavel Valena]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  To: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 1:24:21 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono
> updates; Python, Docker and
>  Haskell fixes
>  
>  On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > Hello,
>  >
>  > new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be
>  > deployed tomorrow by EOD.
>  >
>  > New and updated content
>  >  - C#: IDEs page[1] by Radka Janek <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  >                     and Mickael Istria <mistria(a)redhat.com&gt;
<snip/>
>  >
>  
>  Why are we referencing JetBrains' proprietary Rider in our developer
>  documentation? It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio 
Just a note: It's not a documentation[1] and it's not meant to be in any way.
Aimed on Developers, solely, and addressing their needs[2].

>  Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
>  Fedora (but at least it is open source), but this is straight-up
>  advocating for nonfree software, which entirely _not the point_ of
>  Fedora Developer site. 
Neal, the not-being-in-Fedora is actually acceptable on Developer Portal. The portal aims
to give guidance[1] for developers *on* Fedora, not necessarily contributing *to*
Fedora[3] (or along its guidelines).
Regarding that, I think About page[2] ought be fixed to reflect that more clearly (any
volunteers? :)).

From IDEs page Summary:
"""What would we recommend? JetBrains Rider is the best C# IDE, however it
is not open source."""

I do, however, agree that *recommended* apps or tooling should be the Open Source ones.
Even though It's not forbidden AFAIK.

Thank you for your feedback!

[1] http://developer-portal.github.io/contributing/write-introduction.html
[2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/about.html
[3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer#Target_Audience

--

Radko, can you please change the order of paragraphs to reflect Fedoras' stand-point,
and recommend an Open-Source alternative? I'd also like the JetBrains paragraph to
stress that the software is proprietary and closed-source.
Websites' deploment is postponed until this is resolved. Alternatively, I can delete
the paragraph from resulting web page.

Regards,
Pavel Valena
Associate Software Engineer, Red Hat
Brno, Czech Republic

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Pavel Valena]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;, "Radka Janekova"
> <rjanekov(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 3:44:52 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono
> updates; Python, Docker and
>  Haskell fixes
>  
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  > To: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 1:24:21 PM
>  > Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs
>  > and Mono updates; Python, Docker and
>  > Haskell fixes
>  > 
>  > On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > > Hello,
>  > >
>  > > new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be
>  > > deployed tomorrow by EOD.
>  > >
>  > > New and updated content
>  > >  - C#: IDEs page[1] by Radka Janek <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > >                     and Mickael Istria <mistria(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  <snip/>
>  > >
>  > 
>  > Why are we referencing JetBrains' proprietary Rider in our developer
>  > documentation? It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
>  
>  Just a note: It's not a documentation[1] and it's not meant to be in any way.
>  Aimed on Developers, solely, and addressing their needs[2].
>  
>  > Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
>  > Fedora (but at least it is open source), but this is straight-up
>  > advocating for nonfree software, which entirely _not the point_ of
>  > Fedora Developer site.
>  
>  Neal, the not-being-in-Fedora is actually acceptable on Developer Portal. The
>  portal aims to give guidance[1] for developers *on* Fedora, not necessarily
>  contributing *to* Fedora[3] (or along its guidelines).
>  Regarding that, I think About page[2] ought be fixed to reflect that more
>  clearly (any volunteers? :)).
>  
>  From IDEs page Summary:
>  """What would we recommend? JetBrains Rider is the best C# IDE, however it
> is
>  not open source."""
>  
>  I do, however, agree that *recommended* apps or tooling should be the Open
>  Source ones. Even though It's not forbidden AFAIK.
>  
>  Thank you for your feedback!
>  
>  [1] http://developer-portal.github.io/contributing/write-introduction.html
>  [2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/about.html
>  [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer#Target_Audience
>  
>  --
>  
>  Radko, can you please change the order of paragraphs to reflect Fedoras'
>  stand-point, and recommend an Open-Source alternative? I'd also like the
>  JetBrains paragraph to stress that the software is proprietary and
>  closed-source.
>  Websites' deploment is postponed until this is resolved. Alternatively, I can
>  delete the paragraph from resulting web page. 
I've deloyed the website without the JetBrains block.
Pavel

> 
> Regards,
> Pavel Valena
> Associate Software Engineer, Red Hat
> Brno, Czech Republic
>

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Neal Gompa]

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
> > To: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;, "Radka Janekova"
> <rjanekov(a)redhat.com&gt;
> > Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 3:44:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono
> updates; Python, Docker and
> > Haskell fixes
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
> > > To: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
> > > Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 1:24:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs
> > > and Mono updates; Python, Docker and
> > > Haskell fixes
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will be
> > > > deployed tomorrow by EOD.
> > > >
> > > > New and updated content
> > > >  - C#: IDEs page[1] by Radka Janek <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
> > > >                     and Mickael Istria <mistria(a)redhat.com&gt;
> > <snip/>
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why are we referencing JetBrains' proprietary Rider in our developer
> > > documentation? It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
> >
> > Just a note: It's not a documentation[1] and it's not meant to be in any
> way.
> > Aimed on Developers, solely, and addressing their needs[2].
> >
> > > Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
> > > Fedora (but at least it is open source), but this is straight-up
> > > advocating for nonfree software, which entirely _not the point_ of
> > > Fedora Developer site.
> >
> > Neal, the not-being-in-Fedora is actually acceptable on Developer Portal. The
> > portal aims to give guidance[1] for developers *on* Fedora, not necessarily
> > contributing *to* Fedora[3] (or along its guidelines).
> > Regarding that, I think About page[2] ought be fixed to reflect that more
> > clearly (any volunteers? :)).
> >
> > From IDEs page Summary:
> > """What would we recommend? JetBrains Rider is the best C# IDE,
> however it is
> > not open source."""
> >
> > I do, however, agree that *recommended* apps or tooling should be the Open
> > Source ones. Even though It's not forbidden AFAIK.
> >
> > Thank you for your feedback!
> >
> > [1] http://developer-portal.github.io/contributing/write-introduction.html
> > [2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/about.html
> > [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer#Target_Audience
> >
> > --
> >
> > Radko, can you please change the order of paragraphs to reflect Fedoras'
> > stand-point, and recommend an Open-Source alternative? I'd also like the
> > JetBrains paragraph to stress that the software is proprietary and
> > closed-source.
> > Websites' deploment is postponed until this is resolved. Alternatively, I can
> > delete the paragraph from resulting web page.
>
>  I've deloyed the website without the JetBrains block.
>  Pavel
>  
I still see it in prod:
https://developer.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/csharp-ide.html

I assume you mean staging, where I don't see it anymore:
https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/csharp-ide....


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Pavel Valena]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  To: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org, "Radka Janekova"
> <rjanekov(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 11:44:41 PM
>  Subject: [Developer-portal] Re: FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono
> updates; Python, Docker and
>  Haskell fixes
>  
>  On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  >> From: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  >> To: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;, "Radka
> Janekova"
>  >> <rjanekov(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  >> Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  >> Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 3:44:52 PM
>  >> Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C#
>  >> IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and
>  >> Haskell fixes
>  >>
>  >> ----- Original Message -----
>  >> > From: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  >> > To: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  >> > Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  >> > Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 1:24:21 PM
>  >> > Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C#
>  >> > IDEs
>  >> > and Mono updates; Python, Docker and
>  >> > Haskell fixes
>  >> >
>  >> > On Thu, Nov 2, 2017 at 8:04 AM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>  >> > > Hello,
>  >> > >
>  >> > > new Fedora Developer Portal release is prepared on staging and will
> be
>  >> > > deployed tomorrow by EOD.
>  >> > >
>  >> > > New and updated content
>  >> > >  - C#: IDEs page[1] by Radka Janek <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  >> > >                     and Mickael Istria <mistria(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  >> <snip/>
>  >> > >
>  >> >
>  >> > Why are we referencing JetBrains' proprietary Rider in our developer
>  >> > documentation? It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
>  >>
>  >> Just a note: It's not a documentation[1] and it's not meant to be in
> any
>  >> way.
>  >> Aimed on Developers, solely, and addressing their needs[2].
>  >>
>  >> > Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
>  >> > Fedora (but at least it is open source), but this is straight-up
>  >> > advocating for nonfree software, which entirely _not the point_ of
>  >> > Fedora Developer site.
>  >>
>  >> Neal, the not-being-in-Fedora is actually acceptable on Developer Portal.
>  >> The
>  >> portal aims to give guidance[1] for developers *on* Fedora, not
>  >> necessarily
>  >> contributing *to* Fedora[3] (or along its guidelines).
>  >> Regarding that, I think About page[2] ought be fixed to reflect that more
>  >> clearly (any volunteers? :)).
>  >>
>  >> From IDEs page Summary:
>  >> """What would we recommend? JetBrains Rider is the best C# IDE,
> however it
>  >> is
>  >> not open source."""
>  >>
>  >> I do, however, agree that *recommended* apps or tooling should be the Open
>  >> Source ones. Even though It's not forbidden AFAIK.
>  >>
>  >> Thank you for your feedback!
>  >>
>  >> [1] http://developer-portal.github.io/contributing/write-introduction.html
>  >> [2] https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/about.html
>  >> [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Developer#Target_Audience
>  >>
>  >> --
>  >>
>  >> Radko, can you please change the order of paragraphs to reflect Fedoras'
>  >> stand-point, and recommend an Open-Source alternative? I'd also like the
>  >> JetBrains paragraph to stress that the software is proprietary and
>  >> closed-source.
>  >> Websites' deploment is postponed until this is resolved. Alternatively, I
>  >> can
>  >> delete the paragraph from resulting web page.
>  >
>  > I've deloyed the website without the JetBrains block.
>  > Pavel
>  >
>  
>  I still see it in prod:
>  https://developer.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/csharp-ide.html
>  
>  I assume you mean staging, where I don't see it anymore:
>  https://developer.stg.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/csharp-ide.... 
Well, I do not. It's been on staging since yesterday and it will, hopefully, get soon
to the main website.

What I've ment by "deployed" is that I've merged the changes into
gits' release branch[1].
Those are consequently (usually in few hours) pulled by Website team, in an automated way,
and reflected on an actual website.

From a different point of view, I simply did not expect anyone reading the email at
11:40pm on Saturday, few minutes after I've sent it. :)

Thanks for checking!

[1] https://github.com/developer-portal/developer.fedoraproject.org/tree/release

Pavel

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Neal Gompa]

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Well, I do not. It's been on staging since yesterday and it will, hopefully, get soon
> to the main website.
>
>  What I've ment by "deployed" is that I've merged the changes into
> gits' release branch[1].
>  Those are consequently (usually in few hours) pulled by Website team, in an automated
> way, and reflected on an actual website.
>
>  From a different point of view, I simply did not expect anyone reading the email at
> 11:40pm on Saturday, few minutes after I've sent it. :)
>
>  Thanks for checking!
>
>  [1] https://github.com/developer-portal/developer.fedoraproject.org/tree/release
>
>  Pavel 
If it makes you feel any better, it was actually 6:44pm when I
replied. I live in the US east coast, so with that in mind, maybe it
isn't so surprising. :)

-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Radka Janekova]

Hi,

@pvalena please don't remove (or move) anything til we get some answers.


@ngompa13
>  It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
>  Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
>  Fedora 
I am not a 'no one' =(
My team will be, step by step: .NET Core first.


@bex (had countless of conversations about C# on Fedora) & @jflory7 (is
using C# on Fedora, knows the problems.) what are your opinions on this? Do
we need to make it a council ticket or bring it to council list or
something along the lines?
TLDR: JetBrains Rider is not FLOSS and should be pushed below VS Code,
Mono, and Eclipse on the developer portal (fedoraloves.net) despite Rider
being the only actually capable C# IDE on Linux at this time.


As I see it, we should be unbiased and provide actual information for
Developers interested in using Fedora. By doing this, the information will
no longer be unbiased. I refuse to provide false, incomplete, or otherwise
wrong information. Fedora is Operating System that is targeting developers
who need the best IDE available for their work. As of today, Rider is the
only IDE capable of working with netcore *and* mono that actually works
without any other issues. Eclipse requires either non-floss netcore
packages from Microsoft, or hacked up ours to work - and even then it's a
*maybe* with uncertain results (it works only with projects created in
Eclipse and won't open anything created in any other ide or cli, even with
our hacked up packages.) And VS Code is actually in the same boat, as they
both use OmniSharp under the hood. MonoDevelop is MonoDevelop, although a
good IDE, the title says it all. It's mono-only. So to sum it up, Rider is
the only reliable way to work with C# in any Linux, not only Fedora. As a
bonus for C# developers who are likely to have either Mac or Windows as
well, it's multiplatform and works exactly the same way on all the
platforms (even the whole configuration can be shared via
nextcloud/dropbox/whatever.) And at least they give free licenses for Open
Source projects.


Regards,
Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*radka.janek(a)redhat.com <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;*
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea


On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Pavel Valena
> <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  > Well, I do not. It's been on staging since yesterday and it will,
>  hopefully, get soon to the main website.
>  >
>  > What I've ment by "deployed" is that I've merged the changes into
> gits'
>  release branch[1].
>  > Those are consequently (usually in few hours) pulled by Website team, in
>  an automated way, and reflected on an actual website.
>  >
>  > From a different point of view, I simply did not expect anyone reading
>  the email at 11:40pm on Saturday, few minutes after I've sent it. :)
>  >
>  > Thanks for checking!
>  >
>  > [1] https://github.com/developer-portal/developer.
>  fedoraproject.org/tree/release
>  >
>  > Pavel
>
>  If it makes you feel any better, it was actually 6:44pm when I
>  replied. I live in the US east coast, so with that in mind, maybe it
>  isn't so surprising. :)
>
>  --
>  真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>  _______________________________________________
>  Developer-portal mailing list -- developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to developer-portal-leave@lists.
>  fedoraproject.org
>

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Neal Gompa]

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
wrote:

>  Hi,
>
>  
Hello Radka,

First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify what
you're responding to.​


>  @pvalena please don't remove (or move) anything til we get some
> answers.
>
>
>  @ngompa13
>  > It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
>  > Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
>  > Fedora
>
>  I am not a 'no one' =(
>  My team will be, step by step: .NET Core first.
>
>  
​I am sorry, I saw nothing that indicated anyone was planning on making
*any* of the Electron-based editor/IDE tools available in the official
Fedora repositories. If you do, in fact, plan to bring Visual Studio Code
into Fedora, then that's fantastic.​ But I know of no reason why VSCode
depends deeply on .NET Core getting in first. If anything, shouldn't these
efforts occur in parallel?


>  @bex (had countless of conversations about C# on Fedora) & @jflory7 (is
>  using C# on Fedora, knows the problems.) what are your opinions on this? Do
>  we need to make it a council ticket or bring it to council list or
>  something along the lines?
>  TLDR: JetBrains Rider is not FLOSS and should be pushed below VS Code,
>  Mono, and Eclipse on the developer portal (fedoraloves.net) despite Rider
>  being the only actually capable C# IDE on Linux at this time.
>
>
>  As I see it, we should be unbiased and provide actual information for
>  Developers interested in using Fedora. By doing this, the information will
>  no longer be unbiased. I refuse to provide false, incomplete, or otherwise
>  wrong information. Fedora is Operating System that is targeting developers
>  who need the best IDE available for their work. As of today, Rider is the
>  only IDE capable of working with netcore *and* mono that actually works
>  without any other issues. Eclipse requires either non-floss netcore
>  packages from Microsoft, or hacked up ours to work - and even then it's a
>  *maybe* with uncertain results (it works only with projects created in
>  Eclipse and won't open anything created in any other ide or cli, even with
>  our hacked up packages.) And VS Code is actually in the same boat, as they
>  both use OmniSharp under the hood. MonoDevelop is MonoDevelop, although a
>  good IDE, the title says it all. It's mono-only. So to sum it up, Rider is
>  the only reliable way to work with C# in any Linux, not only Fedora. As a
>  bonus for C# developers who are likely to have either Mac or Windows as
>  well, it's multiplatform and works exactly the same way on all the
>  platforms (even the whole configuration can be shared via
>  nextcloud/dropbox/whatever.) And at least they give free licenses for Open
>  Source projects.
>
>  
​I will point out one very important statement that somehow seems to get
forgotten:

*"Fedora Developer Portal is a place for open-source developers, providing
information about tools, technology and other features that are packaged in
Fedora."*

This statement didn't come from nowhere. In fact, this is from the home
page of the Developer Portal project page
<http://developer-portal.github.io/>.​

​I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this for a while now,
and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond mentioning it
a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as we've
generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far. However,
this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that we
recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.​

​I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been
evolving in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the
fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software
as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of
those things.

If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus should
be improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has
happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these
voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years
ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and
fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one
has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?

Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I
don't know *anything* about any efforts to make the C# world better
integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java
better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden.
😟



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Radka Janekova]

@pvalena
>  I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to
> have it 
till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.

Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has nothing
to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding weight in the
project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely bring it up for
discussion.

@ngompa13
>  First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify
> what 
you're responding to.​

First, would you please not tell people what to do, what to write, and what
to *censor?*
I top-post when there is nothing to reply, or when I'm replying to
everything instead of a single sentence. It is my problem how do I reply,
where I believe that it's very clear and readable. Funny enough I could say
that you should reply better too, cause your emails are dropping the whole
history.

>  ​I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this for a
> while 
now, and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond
mentioning it a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as
we've generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far.
However, this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that
we recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.​
>  ​I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been 
evolving
in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the
fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software
as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of
those things.
>  If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus 
should be
improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has
happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these
voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years
ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and
fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one
has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?
>  Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I
don't know anything about any efforts to make the C# world better
integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java
better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden.

So last year of my 12h/day or more of work is not stepping up. Okay.

There are many people in Red Hat spending their free time on Fedora to get
all the new netcore technologies into Fedora - guess who's working on
Eclipse.

I would like to highlight something here:
"Fedora Developer Portal is a place *for open-source developers,* providing
information about tools, technology and other features that are packaged in
Fedora."
- For Developers who write open-source stuff. It does not mean that the
"tools, technology and other features" have to be open-source. "Packaged
in
Fedora" I read as "stuff that you can very easily use on Fedora." Rider is
a single tarball that works out of the box. Although Eclipse may be
packaged in Fedora, it's not easy to get it to work with netcore and even
when you do, you will experience a lot of issues. The best progress we've
made is teaching Microsoft how to open source and how to licenses, so we
can actually claim that netcore is open source. VSCode may have open source
but the binary is using different license for example. AND we're still
struggling with these issues.

I should also point out that the order of those things on the page was
changed a few weeks ago, when we discovered an issue that makes Eclipse and
VSCode useless, making Rider the only properly working IDE.


I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism[1] and I will *not* censor any
information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will tell
the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out that
it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written pointing
out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score.
Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months of my
work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net effort.

Others have my words, the info given, feel free to weight pro's and con's
of this censorship and decide. I do not want to participate in this thread
as I am very invested into the topic and my words would not be kind.

[1] FLOSS-Extremism is pushing "free" while sacrificing the "friends
features first" and the mission statement "for developers."


Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*radka.janek(a)redhat.com <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;*
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea


On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>
> Hello Radka,
>
>  First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify
> what 
> you're responding to.​
>
>
>> @pvalena please don't remove (or move) anything til we get some answers.
>>
>>
>> @ngompa13
>> > It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
>> > Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
>> > Fedora
>>
>> I am not a 'no one' =(
>> My team will be, step by step: .NET Core first.
>>
>>
> ​I am sorry, I saw nothing that indicated anyone was planning on making
> *any* of the Electron-based editor/IDE tools available in the official
> Fedora repositories. If you do, in fact, plan to bring Visual Studio Code
> into Fedora, then that's fantastic.​ But I know of no reason why VSCode
> depends deeply on .NET Core getting in first. If anything, shouldn't these
> efforts occur in parallel?
>
>
>>
>> @bex (had countless of conversations about C# on Fedora) & @jflory7 (is
>> using C# on Fedora, knows the problems.) what are your opinions on this? Do
>> we need to make it a council ticket or bring it to council list or
>> something along the lines?
>> TLDR: JetBrains Rider is not FLOSS and should be pushed below VS Code,
>> Mono, and Eclipse on the developer portal (fedoraloves.net) despite
>> Rider being the only actually capable C# IDE on Linux at this time.
>>
>>
>> As I see it, we should be unbiased and provide actual information for
>> Developers interested in using Fedora. By doing this, the information will
>> no longer be unbiased. I refuse to provide false, incomplete, or otherwise
>> wrong information. Fedora is Operating System that is targeting developers
>> who need the best IDE available for their work. As of today, Rider is the
>> only IDE capable of working with netcore *and* mono that actually works
>> without any other issues. Eclipse requires either non-floss netcore
>> packages from Microsoft, or hacked up ours to work - and even then it's a
>> *maybe* with uncertain results (it works only with projects created in
>> Eclipse and won't open anything created in any other ide or cli, even with
>> our hacked up packages.) And VS Code is actually in the same boat, as they
>> both use OmniSharp under the hood. MonoDevelop is MonoDevelop, although a
>> good IDE, the title says it all. It's mono-only. So to sum it up, Rider is
>> the only reliable way to work with C# in any Linux, not only Fedora. As a
>> bonus for C# developers who are likely to have either Mac or Windows as
>> well, it's multiplatform and works exactly the same way on all the
>> platforms (even the whole configuration can be shared via
>> nextcloud/dropbox/whatever.) And at least they give free licenses for Open
>> Source projects.
>>
>>
> ​I will point out one very important statement that somehow seems to get
> forgotten:
>
> *"Fedora Developer Portal is a place for open-source developers, providing
> information about tools, technology and other features that are packaged in
> Fedora."*
>
> This statement didn't come from nowhere. In fact, this is from the home
> page of the Developer Portal project page
> <http://developer-portal.github.io/>.​
>
> ​I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this for a while now,
> and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond mentioning it
> a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as we've
> generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far. However,
> this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that we
> recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.​
>  ​I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been 
>
evolving in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the
> fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software
> as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of
> those things.
>  If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus 
> should be
improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has
> happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these
> voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years
> ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and
> fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one
> has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?
>  Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I 
>
don't know *anything* about any efforts to make the C# world better
> integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java
> better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden.
> 😟
>
>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Neal Gompa]

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
wrote:

>  @pvalena
>  > I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to have
>  it till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.
>
>  Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has
>  nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding weight
>  in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely bring it up
>  for discussion.
>
>  
​So my opinion is *worthless*? Wow. I don't have words for how awful that
is. Despite the apparent *worthlessness* of my words, I'm still going to
take the time to reply cordially, because I hope you will learn to see my
point of view on this.​



>  @ngompa13
>  > First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify
>  what you're responding to.​
>
>  First, would you please not tell people what to do, what to write, and
>  what to *censor?*
>  I top-post when there is nothing to reply, or when I'm replying to
>  everything instead of a single sentence. It is my problem how do I reply,
>  where I believe that it's very clear and readable. Funny enough I could say
>  that you should reply better too, cause your emails are dropping the whole
>  history.
>
>  
​I'm following the mailing list guidelines
<https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines> (ehh, mostly...
this is an HTML email, though only because I'm replying to an existing HTML
email). I'm replying to relevant parts because mail lists tie emails
together into a thread that can be visible in digests as well as on the web
view of the list in lists.fedoraproject.org.​



>  > ​I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this
> for a while
>  now, and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond
>  mentioning it a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as
>  we've generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far.
>  However, this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that
>  we recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.​
>  >
>  > ​I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been
>  evolving in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the
>  fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software
>  as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of
>  those things.
>  >
>  > If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus
>  should be improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has
>  happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these
>  voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years
>  ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and
>  fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one
>  has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?
>  >
>  > Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I
>  don't know anything about any efforts to make the C# world better
>  integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java
>  better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden.
>
>  So last year of my 12h/day or more of work is not stepping up. Okay.
>
>  
​As I *also* said, I have no idea what is going on in regards to .NET Core
in Fedora. I even do sit in the IRC channel but I don't learn much from
there (there's not much going on there). It's not for a lack of trying, I
just literally don't see any information anywhere about what's going on.
For example, I *still* don't know what's the holdup for bringing .NET Core
into Fedora proper. Last time I checked into it, it was because LLVM 4.0
wasn't supported, but that seems to no longer be the case? And we also now
have versioned LLVM packages for things that can't keep up (like .NET
Core). So, I don't know why we don't have .NET Core in Fedora itself.​



>  There are many people in Red Hat spending their free time on Fedora
> to get
>  all the new netcore technologies into Fedora - guess who's working on
>  Eclipse.
>
>  
​That's fantastic! Someone should talk about it! Like maybe on *Fedora
Magazine* or something. ​



>  I would like to highlight something here:
>  "Fedora Developer Portal is a place *for open-source developers,*
>  providing information about tools, technology and other features that are
>  packaged in Fedora."
>  - For Developers who write open-source stuff. It does not mean that the
>  "tools, technology and other features" have to be open-source. "Packaged
> in
>  Fedora" I read as "stuff that you can very easily use on Fedora." Rider
> is
>  a single tarball that works out of the box. Although Eclipse may be
>  packaged in Fedora, it's not easy to get it to work with netcore and even
>  when you do, you will experience a lot of issues. The best progress we've
>  made is teaching Microsoft how to open source and how to licenses, so we
>  can actually claim that netcore is open source. VSCode may have open source
>  but the binary is using different license for example. AND we're still
>  struggling with these issues.
>
>  
​This is a very odd interpretation of that statement. One that I would
hazard to say would be very much out of sync of what most of the Fedora
community believes. "*Packaged in Fedora*" is a very specific statement,
meaning that it is part of the collection of software packages shipped as
RPMs in Fedora, which implies it meets the criteria for inclusion into
Fedora.

Addressing the Visual Studio Code comment: This is not dissimilar to how
Chrome works. The Chrome codebase is open source, but people other than
Google cannot call it Google Chrome, which is why Google prepared the
unbranded "Chromium". I'd hope that Microsoft has a similar "alternate
brand" for VS Code or is willing to grant trademark usage along the same
lines that Mozilla has for Firefox to us.​



>  I should also point out that the order of those things on the page
> was
>  changed a few weeks ago, when we discovered an issue that makes Eclipse and
>  VSCode useless, making Rider the only properly working IDE.
>
>  
​What is this issue? Is someone working on it? Any idea when it will be
fixed?​



>  I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism[1] and I will *not* censor any
>  information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will tell
>  the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out that
>  it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written pointing
>  out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score.
>  Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months of my
>  work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net effort.
>
>  
​What? I'm not telling *you* to shut up about Rider. I'm sure Rider is a
nice IDE. I personally use CLion for some of my C/C++ projects, though
since most of my projects are Python, I use PyCharm quite a bit. But the
focus of Fedora Developer Portal is showing how to use tools *in Fedora* to
do awesome things. And to date, *none* of the JetBrains IDEs (even my
favored PyCharm, which is open source) are available in Fedora. PyCharm is
not mentioned in the Fedora Developer Portal for Python for *exactly* that
reason.​ Neither is IntelliJ IDEA for Java. Same goes for Android
development using Eclipse or Android Studio, as neither the Android SDK nor
the associated IDE/IDE components are packaged in Fedora.


>  Others have my words, the info given, feel free to weight pro's
> and con's
>  of this censorship and decide. I do not want to participate in this thread
>  as I am very invested into the topic and my words would not be kind.
>
>  [1] FLOSS-Extremism is pushing "free" while sacrificing the "friends
>  features first" and the mission statement "for developers."
>
>  
​This is literally the first time I've ever heard of this statement. That
said, I care about *all four* pillars of our philosophy equally. If I
wanted to use a charged phrase, I would, but I will simply point out that
the point of Fedora is to push the boundaries for Free and Open Source
Software. Our philosophy comes from that purpose. In my opinion, it is a
disservice to our users if we push one without any of the other, or vice
versa.​ That doesn't mean we should make life hard for people who choose to
use non-free software. That is their choice. But one of the reasons *I* am
part of Fedora is to advance FOSS and free culture.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Neal Gompa]

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Radka Janekova
> <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism[1] and I will *not* censor any
> > information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will tell
> > the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out that
> > it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written pointing
> > out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score.
> > Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months of my
> > work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net effort.
> >
>
>  What? I'm not telling you to shut up about Rider. I'm sure Rider is a nice
>  IDE. I personally use CLion for some of my C/C++ projects, though since most
>  of my projects are Python, I use PyCharm quite a bit. But the focus of
>  Fedora Developer Portal is showing how to use tools in Fedora to do awesome
>  things. And to date, none of the JetBrains IDEs (even my favored PyCharm,
>  which is open source) are available in Fedora. PyCharm is not mentioned in
>  the Fedora Developer Portal for Python for exactly that reason. Neither is
>  IntelliJ IDEA for Java. Same goes for Android development using Eclipse or
>  Android Studio, as neither the Android SDK nor the associated IDE/IDE
>  components are packaged in Fedora.
>  
Self-correction: Android development is briefly mentioned in the
Developer Portal, specifically with Android Studio.

C.f: https://developer.fedoraproject.org/start/sw/mobile-app/mobile-installati...

It's only mildly annoying, as all of that code for development is FOSS
and could be made available in Fedora proper. But if I am to apply the
same standard I did to C# to this, that would need to be removed until
someone is willing to bring that stuff into Fedora. I am okay with
this, but I imagine someone else is going to get annoyed at me for
that standard (even though that's what the Developer Portal is
supposed to be about).


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Pavel Valena]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  To: "Radka Janekova" <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Cc: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;, "Brian Exelbierd"
> <bexelbie(a)redhat.com&gt;, "Justin W. Flory"
>  <jflory7(a)gmail.com&gt;, developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 12:46:28 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] Re: FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono
> updates; Python, Docker and
>  Haskell fixes
>  
>  On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > wrote:
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism[1] and I will *not* censor any
>  >> information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will tell
>  >> the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out that
>  >> it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written pointing
>  >> out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score.
>  >> Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months of my
>  >> work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net effort.
>  >>
>  >
>  > What? I'm not telling you to shut up about Rider. I'm sure Rider is a nice
>  > IDE. I personally use CLion for some of my C/C++ projects, though since
>  > most
>  > of my projects are Python, I use PyCharm quite a bit. But the focus of
>  > Fedora Developer Portal is showing how to use tools in Fedora to do awesome
>  > things. And to date, none of the JetBrains IDEs (even my favored PyCharm,
>  > which is open source) are available in Fedora. PyCharm is not mentioned in
>  > the Fedora Developer Portal for Python for exactly that reason. Neither is
>  > IntelliJ IDEA for Java. Same goes for Android development using Eclipse or
>  > Android Studio, as neither the Android SDK nor the associated IDE/IDE
>  > components are packaged in Fedora. 
I'd love to see some pages/mentions for those IDEs too (while explicitly stated that
they're proprietary solutions). It's the 'developer' we care about
foremost (more below).

>  Self-correction: Android development is briefly mentioned in the
>  Developer Portal, specifically with Android Studio.
>  
>  C.f:
>  https://developer.fedoraproject.org/start/sw/mobile-app/mobile-installati...
>  
>  It's only mildly annoying, as all of that code for development is FOSS
>  and could be made available in Fedora proper. But if I am to apply the
>  same standard I did to C# to this, that would need to be removed until
>  someone is willing to bring that stuff into Fedora. I am okay with
>  this, but I imagine someone else is going to get annoyed at me for
>  that standard (even though that's what the Developer Portal is
>  supposed to be about). 
I'd like to stress once more, that the advertised software ('mentioned') does
not have to be *in* Fedora.
Provided it works (enhances developers' experience) on Fedora, and is reasonably
packaged/distributed. F.e. 'copr', RPM Fusion, PyPI[1], etc.. Although packaging
the recommended SW into Fedora is preferred, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a
good recommendation for a developer.

[1] https://developer.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/python/python-installa...

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Radka Janekova" <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  Cc: "Justin W. Flory" <jflory7(a)gmail.com&gt;, "Pavel Valena"
> <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;,
>  developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org, "Brian Exelbierd"
> <bexelbie(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 1:51:30 PM
>  Subject: [Developer-portal] Re: FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono
> updates; Python, Docker and
>  Haskell fixes
>  
>  > > @pvalena
>  > > > I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to have
>  > > > it till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.
>  > > Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has
>  > > nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding
>  > > weight in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely
>  > > bring it up for discussion.
>  > ​So my opinion is worthless? Wow. I don't have words for how awful that is.
>  > Despite the apparent worthlessness of my words, I'm still going to take
>  > the time to reply cordially, because I hope you will learn to see my point
>  > of view on this.​
>  
>  I said that changes to major operating system or official websites related to
>  it, should not be made based on an opinion of an individual, that the
>  appropriate body should be the decision maker, not the individual. I said
>  that the individual (in this case you) should merely take it up for
>  discussion as you did. Nothing wrong there, in fact, my reply was not
>  directed at you, nor was it discussing your actions, which were correct,
>  until this reply of yours. Your reply was not "cordial." Please do not put
>  words in my mouth as I have neither suggested nor implied that your opinions
>  are "worthless." 
Please bear in mind that most benefitial result (for FDP) is AFAICT intentended from all.
It is, after all, a community project. I did want to release the FDP update, while
omitting any conflicting content. I didn't make any changes to website or content
sources, but merely edited the generated result[2]. This will be corrected, when a
decision is made.

[2]
https://github.com/developer-portal/developer.fedoraproject.org/commit/10...

Regards,
Pavel

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Radka Janekova]

Since this thread didn't move anywhere I would appreciate being able to
refer people to the page again, with the original content. The current
state is a misleading lie.

If anyone would like to discuss this further, I suggest raising a ticket or
complaint with Council, to determine or clarify what content should be on
the developer portal - it seems unclear. Until such decision is made, I am
strongly against anything being censored for any reason.

Regards,
Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*radka.janek(a)redhat.com <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;*
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea


On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Pavel Valena <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  > To: "Radka Janekova" <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > Cc: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;, "Brian Exelbierd"
> <
>  bexelbie(a)redhat.com&gt;, "Justin W. Flory"
>  > <jflory7(a)gmail.com&gt;, developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  > Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 12:46:28 PM
>  > Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] Re: FDP release and statistics 10/2017:
>  C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and
>  > Haskell fixes
>  >
>  > On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > > On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek(a)redhat.com
>  >
>  > > wrote:
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >> I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism[1] and I will *not* censor any
>  > >> information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will
>  tell
>  > >> the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out
>  that
>  > >> it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written
>  pointing
>  > >> out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score.
>  > >> Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months
>  of my
>  > >> work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net effort.
>  > >>
>  > >
>  > > What? I'm not telling you to shut up about Rider. I'm sure Rider is a
>  nice
>  > > IDE. I personally use CLion for some of my C/C++ projects, though since
>  > > most
>  > > of my projects are Python, I use PyCharm quite a bit. But the focus of
>  > > Fedora Developer Portal is showing how to use tools in Fedora to do
>  awesome
>  > > things. And to date, none of the JetBrains IDEs (even my favored
>  PyCharm,
>  > > which is open source) are available in Fedora. PyCharm is not
>  mentioned in
>  > > the Fedora Developer Portal for Python for exactly that reason.
>  Neither is
>  > > IntelliJ IDEA for Java. Same goes for Android development using
>  Eclipse or
>  > > Android Studio, as neither the Android SDK nor the associated IDE/IDE
>  > > components are packaged in Fedora.
>
>  I'd love to see some pages/mentions for those IDEs too (while explicitly
>  stated that they're proprietary solutions). It's the 'developer' we care
>  about foremost (more below).
>
>  > Self-correction: Android development is briefly mentioned in the
>  > Developer Portal, specifically with Android Studio.
>  >
>  > C.f:
>  > https://developer.fedoraproject.org/start/sw/mobile-app/mobile-
>  installation.html
>  >
>  > It's only mildly annoying, as all of that code for development is FOSS
>  > and could be made available in Fedora proper. But if I am to apply the
>  > same standard I did to C# to this, that would need to be removed until
>  > someone is willing to bring that stuff into Fedora. I am okay with
>  > this, but I imagine someone else is going to get annoyed at me for
>  > that standard (even though that's what the Developer Portal is
>  > supposed to be about).
>
>  I'd like to stress once more, that the advertised software ('mentioned')
>  does not have to be *in* Fedora.
>  Provided it works (enhances developers' experience) on Fedora, and is
>  reasonably packaged/distributed. F.e. 'copr', RPM Fusion, PyPI[1], etc..
>  Although packaging the recommended SW into Fedora is preferred, it doesn't
>  necessarily mean it's a good recommendation for a developer.
>
>  [1] https://developer.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/python/python-
>  installation.html
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "Radka Janekova" <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > To: "Neal Gompa" <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  > Cc: "Justin W. Flory" <jflory7(a)gmail.com&gt;, "Pavel Valena"
> <
>  pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;,
>  > developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org, "Brian Exelbierd" <
>  bexelbie(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  > Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 1:51:30 PM
>  > Subject: [Developer-portal] Re: FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C#
>  IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and
>  > Haskell fixes
>  >
>  > > > @pvalena
>  > > > > I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to
>  have
>  > > > > it till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for
> 1.5w.
>  > > > Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has
>  > > > nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding
>  > > > weight in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can
>  merely
>  > > > bring it up for discussion.
>  > > ​So my opinion is worthless? Wow. I don't have words for how awful
>  that is.
>  > > Despite the apparent worthlessness of my words, I'm still going to take
>  > > the time to reply cordially, because I hope you will learn to see my
>  point
>  > > of view on this.​
>  >
>  > I said that changes to major operating system or official websites
>  related to
>  > it, should not be made based on an opinion of an individual, that the
>  > appropriate body should be the decision maker, not the individual. I said
>  > that the individual (in this case you) should merely take it up for
>  > discussion as you did. Nothing wrong there, in fact, my reply was not
>  > directed at you, nor was it discussing your actions, which were correct,
>  > until this reply of yours. Your reply was not "cordial." Please do not
>  put
>  > words in my mouth as I have neither suggested nor implied that your
>  opinions
>  > are "worthless."
>
>  Please bear in mind that most benefitial result (for FDP) is AFAICT
>  intentended from all.
>  It is, after all, a community project. I did want to release the FDP
>  update, while omitting any conflicting content. I didn't make any changes
>  to website or content sources, but merely edited the generated result[2].
>  This will be corrected, when a decision is made.
>
>  [2] https://github.com/developer-portal/developer.
>  fedoraproject.org/commit/1006e1e58e1a07065484c2041b68cb6f307e27bf
>
>  Regards,
>  Pavel
>

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Pavel Valena]

Hello,

trying to reach broader audience and get some feedback, hopefully resolving the issue
concerning Fedora Developer Portal[1]. Specifically its content- C# IDEs[1] (generated
from its github source[2]).
Changes requesting a recommendation of proprietary software on Fedora are postponed[3]
from release. Full thread[4] is on our ML.
Note that the FDP is aimed to help developers *on* Fedora, using tools not necessarily
packaged *in* Fedora. And it's not a documentation[5].

[1] https://developer.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/csharp/csharp-ide.html
[2]
https://github.com/developer-portal/content/blob/master/tech/languages/cs...
[3]
https://github.com/developer-portal/developer.fedoraproject.org/commit/10...
[4]
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]...
[5] http://developer-portal.github.io/contributing/write-introduction.html

Thanks for feedback!

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Radka Janekova" <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Cc: "Justin W. Flory" <jflory7(a)gmail.com&gt;,
> developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org, "Brian Exelbierd"
>  <bexelbie(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 7:00:33 PM
>  Subject: [Developer-portal] Re: FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono
> updates; Python, Docker and
>  Haskell fixes
>  
>  Since this thread didn't move anywhere I would appreciate being able to refer
>  people to the page again, with the original content. The current state is a
>  misleading lie.
>  
>  If anyone would like to discuss this further, I suggest raising a ticket or
>  complaint with Council, to determine or clarify what content should be on
>  the developer portal - it seems unclear. Until such decision is made, I am
>  strongly against anything being censored for any reason. 
Radko,
like with any OpenSource project, your PR does not have to be merged and amendments can be
made to your changes. Please be patient while we try to resolve this.

Regards,
Pavel

>  
>  Regards,
>  Radka
>  
>  Radka Janeková
>  .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
>  radka.janek(a)redhat.com
>  IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
>  
>  On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Pavel Valena < pvalena(a)redhat.com > wrote:
>  > On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Neal Gompa < ngompa13(a)gmail.com > wrote:
>  > > Fedora Developer Portal is showing how to use tools in Fedora to do
>  > > awesome
>  > > things. And to date, none of the JetBrains IDEs (even my favored PyCharm,
>  > > which is open source) are available in Fedora. PyCharm is not mentioned
>  > > in
>  > > the Fedora Developer Portal for Python for exactly that reason. Neither
>  > > is
>  > > IntelliJ IDEA for Java. Same goes for Android development using Eclipse
>  > > or
>  > > Android Studio, as neither the Android SDK nor the associated IDE/IDE
>  > > components are packaged in Fedora. 
<snip/>
> I'd like to stress once more, that the advertised software ('mentioned')
does
> not have to be *in* Fedora.
> Provided it works (enhances developers' experience) on Fedora, and is
> reasonably packaged/distributed. F.e. 'copr', RPM Fusion, PyPI[1], etc..
> Although packaging the recommended SW into Fedora is preferred, it doesn't
> necessarily mean it's a good recommendation for a developer.
> 
> [1]
> https://developer.fedoraproject.org/tech/languages/python/python-installa...
> 
> Regards,
> Pavel

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Radka Janekova]

>  > @pvalena
>  > > I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to 
have it
till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.
>  > Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who
> has 
nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding weight
in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely bring it up
for discussion.
>  ​So my opinion is worthless? Wow. I don't have words for how
> awful that 
is. Despite the apparent worthlessness of my words, I'm still going
to take
the time to reply cordially, because I hope you will learn to see my point
of view on this.​

I said that changes to major operating system or official websites related
to it, should not be made based on an opinion of an individual, that the
appropriate body should be the decision maker, not the individual. I said
that the individual (in this case you) should merely take it up for
discussion as you did. Nothing wrong there, in fact, my reply was not
directed at you, nor was it discussing your actions, which were correct,
until this reply of yours. Your reply was not "cordial." Please do not put
words in my mouth as I have neither suggested nor implied that your
opinions are "worthless."

>  Eclipse/VSCode/OmniSharp 
This is not the place to chat about the bugs within OmniSharp but here you
go:
https://github.com/dotnet/source-build/issues/125
https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/1744
https://pagure.io/fedora-dotnet/pull-request/30

>  For example, I still don't know what's the holdup for
> bringing .NET Core 
into Fedora proper.

Did you ask? The answer is simple: Pre-built tools/binaries are used to
build the source. Microsoft does not understand that we need *everything*
to be built from source. It's not easy to teach them how-to-opensource.
E.g. https://github.com/dotnet/source-build/issues/187

>  But one of the reasons I am part of Fedora is to advance FOSS and
> free 
culture.

And one of the reasons I desperately feel like running as far away from
Fedora as possible is the "FLOSS-Extremism" and the hate of anything anyhow
related to closed source, Microsoft, etc...
http://rhea-ayase.eu/articles/2017-05/FLOSS-Community


Radka

------------------------------
*Radka Janeková*
.NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
*radka.janek(a)redhat.com <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;*
IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea


On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Radka Janekova
> <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>
> > @pvalena
> > > I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to have
> > it till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.
> >
> > Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has
> > nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding weight
> > in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely bring it up
> > for discussion.
> >
> >
>  ​So my opinion is *worthless*? Wow. I don't have words for how awful that
>  is. Despite the apparent *worthlessness* of my words, I'm still going to
>  take the time to reply cordially, because I hope you will learn to see my
>  point of view on this.​
>
>
>
> > @ngompa13
> > > First, would you please not top-post? It makes it tricky to identify
> > what you're responding to.​
> >
> > First, would you please not tell people what to do, what to write, and
> > what to *censor?*
> > I top-post when there is nothing to reply, or when I'm replying to
> > everything instead of a single sentence. It is my problem how do I reply,
> > where I believe that it's very clear and readable. Funny enough I could say
> > that you should reply better too, cause your emails are dropping the whole
> > history.
> >
> >
>  ​I'm following the mailing list guidelines
>  <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines> (ehh, mostly...
>  this is an HTML email, though only because I'm replying to an existing HTML
>  email). I'm replying to relevant parts because mail lists tie emails
>  together into a thread that can be visible in digests as well as on the web
>  view of the list in lists.fedoraproject.org.​
>
>
>
> > > ​I've been watching the site gradually lose focus on this for a while
> > now, and I've been generally displeased about it. However, beyond
> > mentioning it a few times on IRC, I've not made too much fuss about it, as
> > we've generally been pointing to free and open source solutions so far.
> > However, this is the first time I've noticed that we've strayed so far that
> > we recommended a non-free solution to potential developers using Fedora.​
> > >
> > > ​I've become increasingly disappointed with the way things have been
> > evolving in Fedora as a whole, but I hoped we wouldn't lose sight of the
> > fact that our distribution exists to promote free and open source software
> > as well as free culture, and the tools to enable the further development of
> > those things.
> > >
> > > If JetBrains Rider is the only decent tool right now, then the focus
> > should be improving the Free tools so they can compete. What the heck has
> > happened? I remember the days when Red Hatters stepped up to fill these
> > voids when they showed up. We were in a similar situation with Java years
> > ago, and Red Hatters and other members of the community stepped up and
> > fixed it with the IcedTea project. What makes C# so different that no one
> > has stepped up to bat to make a first-class FOSS solution for C# developers?
> > >
> > > Radka, it's clear you're very passionate about .NET development. But I
> > don't know anything about any efforts to make the C# world better
> > integrated with the FOSS world, similar to what happened to make Java
> > better years ago. If there is something going on, it's really well-hidden.
> >
> > So last year of my 12h/day or more of work is not stepping up. Okay.
> >
> >
>  ​As I *also* said, I have no idea what is going on in regards to .NET
>  Core in Fedora. I even do sit in the IRC channel but I don't learn much
>  from there (there's not much going on there). It's not for a lack of
>  trying, I just literally don't see any information anywhere about what's
>  going on. For example, I *still* don't know what's the holdup for
>  bringing .NET Core into Fedora proper. Last time I checked into it, it was
>  because LLVM 4.0 wasn't supported, but that seems to no longer be the case?
>  And we also now have versioned LLVM packages for things that can't keep up
>  (like .NET Core). So, I don't know why we don't have .NET Core in Fedora
>  itself.​
>
>
>
> > There are many people in Red Hat spending their free time on Fedora to
> > get all the new netcore technologies into Fedora - guess who's working on
> > Eclipse.
> >
> >
>  ​That's fantastic! Someone should talk about it! Like maybe on *Fedora
>  Magazine* or something. ​
>
>
>
> > I would like to highlight something here:
> > "Fedora Developer Portal is a place *for open-source developers,*
> > providing information about tools, technology and other features that are
> > packaged in Fedora."
> > - For Developers who write open-source stuff. It does not mean that the
> > "tools, technology and other features" have to be open-source.
> "Packaged in
> > Fedora" I read as "stuff that you can very easily use on Fedora."
> Rider is
> > a single tarball that works out of the box. Although Eclipse may be
> > packaged in Fedora, it's not easy to get it to work with netcore and even
> > when you do, you will experience a lot of issues. The best progress we've
> > made is teaching Microsoft how to open source and how to licenses, so we
> > can actually claim that netcore is open source. VSCode may have open source
> > but the binary is using different license for example. AND we're still
> > struggling with these issues.
> >
> >
>  ​This is a very odd interpretation of that statement. One that I would
>  hazard to say would be very much out of sync of what most of the Fedora
>  community believes. "*Packaged in Fedora*" is a very specific statement,
>  meaning that it is part of the collection of software packages shipped as
>  RPMs in Fedora, which implies it meets the criteria for inclusion into
>  Fedora.
>
>  Addressing the Visual Studio Code comment: This is not dissimilar to how
>  Chrome works. The Chrome codebase is open source, but people other than
>  Google cannot call it Google Chrome, which is why Google prepared the
>  unbranded "Chromium". I'd hope that Microsoft has a similar
> "alternate
>  brand" for VS Code or is willing to grant trademark usage along the same
>  lines that Mozilla has for Firefox to us.​
>
>
>
> > I should also point out that the order of those things on the page was
> > changed a few weeks ago, when we discovered an issue that makes Eclipse and
> > VSCode useless, making Rider the only properly working IDE.
> >
> >
>  ​What is this issue? Is someone working on it? Any idea when it will be
>  fixed?​
>
>
>
> >
> > I will *not* give in to FLOSS-Extremism[1] and I will *not* censor any
> > information from the user. If JetBrains Rider is the best IDE, I will tell
> > the whole world about it without any bias, while merely pointing out that
> > it's not open source. The developer portal page was well written pointing
> > out that fact, while ordering the IDE's by unbiased usefulness score.
> > Removing Rider from the developer page is effectively undoing months of my
> > work in the bigger picture of the whole fedoraloves.net effort.
> >
> >
>  ​What? I'm not telling *you* to shut up about Rider. I'm sure Rider is a
>  nice IDE. I personally use CLion for some of my C/C++ projects, though
>  since most of my projects are Python, I use PyCharm quite a bit. But the
>  focus of Fedora Developer Portal is showing how to use tools *in Fedora*
>  to do awesome things. And to date, *none* of the JetBrains IDEs (even my
>  favored PyCharm, which is open source) are available in Fedora. PyCharm is
>  not mentioned in the Fedora Developer Portal for Python for *exactly* that
>  reason.​ Neither is IntelliJ IDEA for Java. Same goes for Android
>  development using Eclipse or Android Studio, as neither the Android SDK nor
>  the associated IDE/IDE components are packaged in Fedora.
>
>
> > Others have my words, the info given, feel free to weight pro's and con's
> > of this censorship and decide. I do not want to participate in this thread
> > as I am very invested into the topic and my words would not be kind.
> >
> > [1] FLOSS-Extremism is pushing "free" while sacrificing the "friends
> > features first" and the mission statement "for developers."
> >
> >
>  ​This is literally the first time I've ever heard of this statement. That
>  said, I care about *all four* pillars of our philosophy equally. If I
>  wanted to use a charged phrase, I would, but I will simply point out that
>  the point of Fedora is to push the boundaries for Free and Open Source
>  Software. Our philosophy comes from that purpose. In my opinion, it is a
>  disservice to our users if we push one without any of the other, or vice
>  versa.​ That doesn't mean we should make life hard for people who choose to
>  use non-free software. That is their choice. But one of the reasons *I* am
>  part of Fedora is to advance FOSS and free culture.
>
>
>  --
>  真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
>

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Neal Gompa]

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Radka Janekova <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
wrote:

>  > > @pvalena
>  > > > I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to
>  have it till then. I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.
>  > > Stuff should not be removed based on opinions of one person who has
>  nothing to do with the technology in question, nor has any deciding weight
>  in the project (i.e. is not council/committee.) They can merely bring it up
>  for discussion.
>  > ​So my opinion is worthless? Wow. I don't have words for how awful that
>  is. Despite the apparent worthlessness of my words, I'm still going to take
>  the time to reply cordially, because I hope you will learn to see my point
>  of view on this.​
>
>  I said that changes to major operating system or official websites related
>  to it, should not be made based on an opinion of an individual, that the
>  appropriate body should be the decision maker, not the individual. I said
>  that the individual (in this case you) should merely take it up for
>  discussion as you did. Nothing wrong there, in fact, my reply was not
>  directed at you, nor was it discussing your actions, which were correct,
>  until this reply of yours. Your reply was not "cordial." Please do not put
>  words in my mouth as I have neither suggested nor implied that your
>  opinions are "worthless."
>
>  
​Okay, fine.​



>  > Eclipse/VSCode/OmniSharp
>
>  This is not the place to chat about the bugs within OmniSharp but here you
>  go:
>  https://github.com/dotnet/source-build/issues/125
>  https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/1744
>  https://pagure.io/fedora-dotnet/pull-request/30
>
>  
​Sur​e. I sympathize with your issues. It's long, painful road. I'm glad
you're doing that work.



>  > For example, I still don't know what's the holdup for
> bringing .NET Core
>  into Fedora proper.
>
>  Did you ask? The answer is simple: Pre-built tools/binaries are used to
>  build the source. Microsoft does not understand that we need *everything*
>  to be built from source. It's not easy to teach them how-to-opensource.
>  E.g. https://github.com/dotnet/source-build/issues/187
>
>  
​I've recently met one of the Microsoft guys working on .NET, and he does
understand these things, it's just a matter of getting everyone else to
understand. Microsoft isn't a monolith, as much as many people pretend that
it is.

And I've been there with a language bootstrap, so I sympathize. After all,
I have been helping Igor Gnatenko with Rust for almost a year now. We just
finally managed to make it to the home stretch and start integrating Rust
packages into Fedora proper.​



>  > But one of the reasons I am part of Fedora is to advance FOSS
> and free
>  culture.
>
>  And one of the reasons I desperately feel like running as far away from
>  Fedora as possible is the "FLOSS-Extremism" and the hate of anything anyhow
>  related to closed source, Microsoft, etc... http://rhea-ayase.eu/articles/
>  2017-05/FLOSS-Community
>
>  
​I despise closed source software for personal reasons. I don't
particularly hate Microsoft, though I greatly dislike Windows as a
platform. But I work for a company that makes closed source software, and I
champion open source where I can, and try to be friendly to bring new
people to our communities.

But being principled (which is what I consider myself as) is not the same
as being extremist. I am not threatening hate and violence unto you for
working on this stuff.

Personally, I don't think you're using that term right, and you're not
going to make friends by calling people that.​

-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono updates; Python, Docker and Haskell fixes

[Pavel Valena]

----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Radka Janekova" <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  To: "Pavel Valena" <pvalena(a)redhat.com&gt;, "Neal Gompa"
> <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt;, "Brian Exelbierd" <bexelbie(a)redhat.com&gt;,
>  "Justin W. Flory" <jflory7(a)gmail.com&gt;
>  Cc: developer-portal(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 1:16:42 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Developer-portal] Re: FDP release and statistics 10/2017: C# IDEs and Mono
> updates; Python, Docker and
>  Haskell fixes
>  
>  Hi,
>  
>  @pvalena please don't remove (or move) anything til we get some answers. 
Sorry, too late.

https://github.com/developer-portal/developer.fedoraproject.org/commit/10...

I can push the fix (or revert) on Tue afternoon, if you manage to have it till then.
I'm afraid I'll be unavailable afterwards for 1.5w.

>  
>  
>  @ngompa13
>  > It was already a bit of a stretch with Visual Studio
>  > Code, given that literally no one is working on bringing that into
>  > Fedora
>  
>  I am not a 'no one' =(
>  My team will be, step by step: .NET Core first. 
I had already one 'complaint' that it's not in Fedora (I prefer to call it a
request).

>  @bex (had countless of conversations about C# on Fedora) &
> @jflory7 (is
>  using C# on Fedora, knows the problems.) what are your opinions on this? Do
>  we need to make it a council ticket or bring it to council list or
>  something along the lines?
>  TLDR: JetBrains Rider is not FLOSS and should be pushed below VS Code,
>  Mono, and Eclipse on the developer portal (fedoraloves.net) despite Rider
>  being the only actually capable C# IDE on Linux at this time. 
Looking forward for answers.

>  As I see it, we should be unbiased and provide actual information
> for
>  Developers interested in using Fedora. By doing this, the information will
>  no longer be unbiased. I refuse to provide false, incomplete, or otherwise
>  wrong information. Fedora is Operating System that is targeting developers
>  who need the best IDE available for their work. As of today, Rider is the
>  only IDE capable of working with netcore *and* mono that actually works
>  without any other issues. Eclipse requires either non-floss netcore
>  packages from Microsoft, or hacked up ours to work - and even then it's a
>  *maybe* with uncertain results (it works only with projects created in
>  Eclipse and won't open anything created in any other ide or cli, even with
>  our hacked up packages.) And VS Code is actually in the same boat, as they
>  both use OmniSharp under the hood. MonoDevelop is MonoDevelop, although a
>  good IDE, the title says it all. It's mono-only. So to sum it up, Rider is
>  the only reliable way to work with C# in any Linux, not only Fedora. As a
>  bonus for C# developers who are likely to have either Mac or Windows as
>  well, it's multiplatform and works exactly the same way on all the
>  platforms (even the whole configuration can be shared via
>  nextcloud/dropbox/whatever.) And at least they give free licenses for Open
>  Source projects. 
Sounds reasonable, but on the other hand, Neal has some good points.
I think I'll send FDP release info (+reference to this thread) to fedora-devel ML
tomorrow evening, so it gets more traction.

Pavel

> 
> 
> Regards,
> Radka
> 
> ------------------------------
> *Radka Janeková*
> .NET & OpenShift Engineer, Red Hat
> *radka.janek(a)redhat.com <radka.janek(a)redhat.com&gt;*
> IRC: radka | Freenode: Rhea
>