docs December 2006

docs@lists.fedoraproject.org

26 participants
50 discussions

Re: comments on 'directory structure'
by Dimitrios Typaldos 08 Dec '06

08 Dec '06

Aaahh, now I understand the point. Thanks. Dt o-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------o pub 1024D/6A7B898C 2006-11-16 Key fingerprint = F892 27EB 871A 3C16 B18E 3AD5 3A6A 3F77 6A7B 898C uid Dimitrios Typaldos (Encrypted) sub 2048g/4773BB57 2006-11-16 ----- Original Message ---- From: Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com> To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com> Sent: Friday, December 8, 2006 8:27:03 AM Subject: Re: comments on 'directory structure' On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 20:23 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 16:21 -0800, Dimitrios Typaldos wrote: > > I would like to include some ideas/proposals that maybe could improve > > the Directory Structure: > [...snip...] > > Any comments positive or negative are welcome. > > Unfortunately, this is probably the wrong forum for such a discussion. > You could try fedora-devel-list instead, but be prepared for a strenuous > argument. Best of luck! Woah, there, partner! Dimitrios is asking about the section of the Fedora Administration Guide that discusses the directory structure: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/AdministrationGuide/DirectoryStru… Confusing around here sometimes, isn't it? :D - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

1 0

Dir structure rough text version call for feedback.
by Draciron Smith 08 Dec '06

08 Dec '06

I know I'm supposed to submit to the wiki but I am having a great deal of trouble with it not recognizing my key. Still not sure why. I've exported it. Then created a new one. Anyway I've had this sitting around for a couple weeks now ready and would like to get feedback on it and hopefully get it submitted to the Wiki by somebody with edit writes while I work on getting my account straitened out. Once I get reamed on a couple of these for mistakes in style I'll have a very good idea of what is and isn't wanted in documentation and can hopefully just submit in a normal fashion by then. Start rough draft ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Fedora dir structure. This is meant as a practical guide for novice and mid level Fedora users. The information is based on real life usage rather than what dirs are theoretically supposed to be used for. Linux uses the traditional Unix dir structure. It was designed for use on multi-login servers and to facilitate organization as well as segregation of applications and files by intended usage.Linux in general and Fedora in specific has varied a little from the traditional usage of these file structures. In this document is both traditional and actual Linux usage. /bin Used to hold commands used by both users and admins. In general not for crucial commands. In single user mode /bin might not even be mounted if it is on a seperate partition. Non-essential scripts and utilities are often installed here as well. /boot This is where your kernel and related files are kept. It is also where the boot loader, Grub and or Lilo can be found. The most common reasons to access /boot is to make backup copies of your kernel before upgrading your kernel. It is highly recommended that you do so. Rpm kernel upgrades do not make a backup. If there is a problem and you do not have a copy of an older working kernel you can find your machine is unbootable. See kernel copying for how to make a backup copy of your kernel and what the various kernel files do. In /boot/grub or /boot/lilo you'll also find the grub menu. This will allow you to modify your boot menu. Only kernels and bootloader files should go in this dir. /dev This is a dir with virtual links to devices or device files. [Need examples of why anybody would go to /dev] /etc This is configuration central for Linux systems. It is here where passwords are kept, network configurations, job schedules, configurations for many applications and a host of other information is stored. The majority of the files in /etc are files you will never edit by hand. They are there for specific applications and you make changes through those applications. To modify some of these files by hand is to risk breaking your system if you do not know what you are doing. Hosts, hosts.allow, hosts.deny are kept here. If you have a network and do not have a DNS server you will likely want to edit these files. issue.net in Red Hat based systems such as Fedora this will provide the exact version of the Distro you are running. Resolv.conf will list the dns information you are using. fstab lists your mounts. Unfortunately it uses labels by default so df is a better way to see what is mounted where if you want to see what device is physically mapped to a given partition. To add a permanent mount point you add it to the fstab file. Here are some of the dirs you are more likely to encounter. /etc/X11 This is a dir you hope you never have to enter. X11 configuration files are not for the feint of heart. This is where you go to configure dual head, change monitor refresh rates if you change your monitor and to troubleshoot if X starts acting up. If you do not have a reason to edit these files then don't. /etc/cron.d /cron.hourly /cron.daily /cron.weekly /cron.monthly This is where your cron jobs are stored and run from. Usefull in debugging a cron script that is not running as desired or at all. It is also one of the first places to look if you feel you have been hacked. The .timeframe is how often the script in that dir will be run. Hourly for example will be run every hour. /etc/samba Most Samba configuration edits can be handled in the GUI today. Many people still hand edit the Samba configuration files. /etc/logrotate.d Where to add and change what logs are rotated and how often. /etc/yum It is often easier to edit these files using GUI apps such as gnome-yum. This is where information about your yum default behavior is contained. /etc/yum.repos.d Location of your yum repository information. Repositories may be listed in the yum.conf file or as a seperate file ending with the .repo extension. /etc/sysconfig This is the heart and soul of your system configuration files. Most of these files you will never edit by hand. /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts Networking central. /etc/xinetd.d This is where you enable, disable, add and remove services from the xinet.dservice. The format is a start up script with the name you wish to appear in the xinet.d service. Most scripts will contain a disable line that you change from yes to no if you have to hand edit them. /etc/xen Xen virtual machine configurations. /etc/httpd In rpm installs this is the nerve center of Apache. This is where you will go to create virtual servers, change the document root, create listeners, trouble shoot and other Apache admin functions. Many of these functions are not supported well or at all by GUIs. httpd.conf is the file you are most often going to edit. If you install Apache from a tarball rename this dir to something which clearly shows it is no longer the active Apache configuration file. Apache will put it's configuration files in a different place is you install from a tarball and the frustration of editing files here and confusion generated from having multiple Apache configuration files is just not worth it. You do want to potentially save the information if you were actively using the Apache server before installing the tarball version of it. There are also examples of things done by the rpm version you may want to incorporate into the tarball version even if you never ran Apache up to that point. So it is best to save this dir until you have Apache configured they way you wish. /etc/rc.d This dir contains what files are to be run automatically or as services in a given run level. Init.d being on boot up. Most workstations use runlevel 5 (/rc.d/rc5.d/), so that is where you will be looking most likely if you ever need to delve into this. Utilities such as chkconfig [link to chkconfig doc page] from the command line or the services utility [link to X run level editors] available to root in X are wrappers around these files. They are also far easier to use than hand editing these files. /etc/amanda Amanda is the most commonly used Unix back up client. Here is where you can modify what is backed up by Amanda and how often. /etc/snort Here you'll find the snort configuration options. Snort is primarily used as an IDS and it is highly recommended that you run Snort. /etc/cups It's tempting but just don't do it. Cups is a very tempermental application. Make modifications from the cups GUI not here. /etc/apt If you use the apt utilities rather than yum this is where you'll want to modify repositories to obtain apt-get packages. /etc/logwatch Logwatch is a utility for monitoring and analyzing log files. Here is where you modify your logwatches and actions based on them. /etc/ssh SSH is a secure means to replace both telnet and ftp. Unless you have no other choice, always use SSH/SCP. SSH is in general very secure. It is not immune to attacks. If you have no need to ssh into your machine take the service down. In the ssh dir you will find several configuration files. Here are changes that should be made on almost all systems immediately after install to the sshd_config file. #Protocol 2,1 Protocol 2 Make sure that only protocol 2 is supported. Never use protocol 1. It is insecure. You will get hacked if you leave the ssh daemon running and exposed it to the net with protocol 1 enabled. #PermitRootLogin yes Change this to PermitRootLogin no The exception being that sometimes control panel applications and other admin applications require root SSH logins to function. In all other cases turn this off. Instead ssh in as a user and then su to use root privileges. If you use an application which requires the ability to ssh in as root you can limit the ability to log in as root by IP or use keys as authentication to provide better security. X11Forwarding yes This is something you typically want to allow. Using this file you can also set up authorized keys, use PAM, Kerbos or other authentication methods, do port forwarding and a number of other options. If you use authorized keys you'll find your key files in this dir as well. They will be necessary if you want other machines to be able to log in to this machine using authorized keys. /home This is where user specific data except for the root account is stored. It is also often used as a catchall dir for downloads, installs and shared files. The structure will typically be /home/username the username being the only default place a user can store files except for /tmp. The primary purpose is to segregate user files from system files. This is done for security reasons and organizational reasons. It is also done to make it easy to set disk usage quotas on multiple user machines. The home dir is designed to keep user specific data and meant to be a private dir. Users should NEVER share files in their home dir or allow other users access to files in their home dir. Instead a shared dir or partition should be set up to facilitate sharing of files. In a user's home dir you will find files such as .bashrc which allows you to modify your Bash shell environment, .gnome and .kde where some gnome applications store logs and configuration information. Applications like instant messengers will store logs in a .appname dir such as .ymessenger .gaim or in places like .kde/shared/ksirc. This is where you will find conversation logs if you save such. These are the dirs to save if you want to keep your customizations to desktop and shell environments in moving to another machine or a new install that wipes out your home dir. This can include files like gnucash documents, bookmarks which are found in .mozilla/firefox/ and pretty much every other important user specific file. Files and dirs which start with a dot in front of them are hidden files. They are normally configuration files for various applications that you use and will be invisible except using ls -al or enabling the viewing of hidden files in GUI file managers. By default most compression utilities will not include these files in archives they build. So for backups you want to be sure to use switches that do include these files. The specific switches will be listed in that compression programs man page. /lib This is the home of shared libs and some applications. Mozilla for example in the past would install to /lib. Many of the entries in this dir are symbolic links. So to determine exactly what version of a lib is being used you often have to do an ls -al on the file to see where the link is pointing. /lost+found Here is where Fedora puts what it can find of files which get damaged in file system corruption. If your system reports an unclean file system and makes repairs here is where you can potentially recover lost files or pieces of them. There is a lost+found dir at the top dir of every partition. /media This is where Fedora by default mounts peripherals such as CDs, thumbdrives, floppy drives and such. The first place to look when adding a USB drive or mounting a CD is here unless you specified a different mount point. It is inadvisable to put any other kind of dir here. By default Fedora will not allow you to create dirs here. /misc Mostly unused dir today. Was in older distros heavily used for certain system files which have since been moved to other dirs. /mnt Most Distros still use the /mnt dir for what Fedora uses /media for. Some applications will still mount media here. It is also meant as a handy dir for admins to mount temporary devices. /net This is the traditional place to mount networked file systems such as shares from Windows machines and NFS mounts from other machines would be located. In practice many will attach them to the / dir or in their home dir. /opt This used to be where many third party applications were installed. Some applications still install here by default. Most have switched to using /usr/share or /usr/local in recent years. /proc Kernel and process virtual file system. These are representations of what is going on in the bowels of your system. A window into what is going on. /root This is the home dir of the root account. This is not located in /home so that if /home which should be on a seperate partition fills up the root account can still function. Other than that it is exactly like a user account in /home. /sbin Here are where many of the most crucial binaries in a linux system. Files in /sbin are normally files only used by the system or by for administration of the machine. /sbin also contains the files needed for booting the machine and utilities meant to be used only by in the administration of the machine. /srv Designed as a location for service specific data. /selinux This is dir for configurations and data related to selinux policies. /tmp Home for application specific data and lock files. If an application crashes and will not let you restart it, a good place to start is deleting files with that application name here. /usr The /usr structure is where user specific applications are installed. Many server applications will install here as well. /usr/bin Home for most user related binaries and utilities. /usr/include System wide include dir for use by both user written programs and system compiled applications. /usr/lib User based libs and shared objects. Not intended for executables but some wind up here anyway. /usr/share and /usr/local/share often but not always the same dir. In Fedora the default is for these two to be seperate dirs. This is for shared files system wide. For example /usr/share/wallpapers is meant to be a common place for wallpapers for use by all users and all window managers on a system. Most documentation and man pages can be found in the /usr/share or /usr/local/share dirs. Many applications will install to these dirs as well. If what you installed is not a server type app or a utility you will likely find it installed here or in your home dir. Many utilities are also installed here. /usr/src This is where source rpms live. The structure is devoted to storing and building source rpms. /usr/sbin The purpose of this dir is for non-essential Admin utilities and applications. /usr/local This is for applications specific to this machine. Which really has meaning only if other machines share a common dir such as /usr/sbin. Something done very rarely today. So the /usr/local/bin, sbin, lib and other dirs except for shared are typically not used today. /var This is one of the default places for many applications to install into which are not part of the distro. Databases, webservers, accounting packages and such often wind up here. /var/log This is where most system logs wind up. If your / partition is suddenly out of space and /home /var or /var/log are not on seperate partitions or if a seperate /var partition is suddenly out of space check /var/log. All Linux users should get comfortable with some of the files in /var/log. Some important files located here. dmesg is a crucial file in debugging boot problems. /var/log/httpd is where you'll find your Apache logs in an rpm distribution of Apache. mailog can be an important file. messages is where you find information from applications that don't have a specific log file. It is the catch all log file for your system and one you should check at least periodically to monitor system health and security. nessus, snort, rootkithunter and other IDS and security software will keep logs here. /var/log/samba is where to look for samba related logs. secure is if you have it enabled the place to look for attempts to hack into your machine. This is a file you should review often. /var/lock Designed to hold lock files. So it is another place to look for lock files. Some applications put them here instead of in /tmp. /var/crash If you have system dumps enabled you will generally find the results here. /var/lib Application specific location for libs. Most applications which install to /var will install libs specific to them in /var/lib. The redundancy of multiple lib dirs is a matter of segregation between the intended users of an application and it's related lib files. Many applications are no longer following this layout and putting lib files in /usr/lib or /lib instead. /var/games Rarely used dir specifically created for games. Most games install to /usr/local or to /var instead. /var/mail and /var/spool/mail This is the default home for sendmail and system mail messages. The basic structure is /var/mail/username the file will be the spool containing messages for that user. /var/spool/lpd Temporary location for spooled print jobs spawned by lpd. /var/tmp Location for temp files preserved between reboots. http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE3

3 4

Few questions about the Admin Gude
by Vladimir Kosovac 08 Dec '06

08 Dec '06

Hi people. I am about to start writing draft for Users/Accounts module of the guide. Can anybody confirm whether I'm on the right track if module is structured as per below: 1] Intro - A bit about the general stuff (multi-user system, root vs unprivileged accounts, etc.) - Explanation of relevant files in /etc - What happens in the background when adding/modifying users/groups 2] Managing users/groups using system-config-users 3] " using command line utilities 4] Password policies 5] Additional documentation Does anything else needs covering? Thanks, V

3 5

Re: comments on 'directory structure'
by Dimitrios Typaldos 08 Dec '06

08 Dec '06

It seems properly that I have misinterpreted some previous sayings. I had the idea that the pages under drafts are still under development and not in a rather final phase. Could someone clarify this for me , please just to get a solid idea of my tasks ? Thanks Dimitri o-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------o pub 1024D/6A7B898C 2006-11-16 Key fingerprint = F892 27EB 871A 3C16 B18E 3AD5 3A6A 3F77 6A7B 898C uid Dimitrios Typaldos (Encrypted) sub 2048g/4773BB57 2006-11-16 ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul W. Frields <stickster(a)gmail.com> To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com> Sent: Friday, December 8, 2006 1:23:22 AM Subject: Re: comments on 'directory structure' On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 16:21 -0800, Dimitrios Typaldos wrote: > I would like to include some ideas/proposals that maybe could improve > the Directory Structure: [...snip...] > Any comments positive or negative are welcome. Unfortunately, this is probably the wrong forum for such a discussion. You could try fedora-devel-list instead, but be prepared for a strenuous argument. Best of luck! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com

3 2

Re: Wiki editing
by Vladimir Kosovac 07 Dec '06

07 Dec '06

Karsten Wade wrote: > Do you mind if I bounce this reply to the list, as written? I was going > to just do it, but I thought better of it. > Not at all - I am posting this to the list. > On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 10:58 +1300, Vladimir Kosovac wrote: > >> Lots >> of styling experiments mean that I update often, which further causes lots >> of messages sent to subscribers. > > Try the Preview button. It creates a preview of the change below the > edit area. More ideas below. I do but somehow I always come up with a new, better idea, just after saving :-) >> * Is this generally annoying to subscribers? > > Depends. Lots of short messages can be OK if they are various targeted > changes. That can be easier than slogging through a long, single edit > of a large number of changes. If you use the preview button or the > sandbox style (see below), you can make it so that only substantive > changes are saved. Although we all make typos that have to be fixed, > and there is the Trivial Change checkbox for that when submitting. > > These are the same methodologies > >> * Is there a better place for trying out various formatting options >> (perhaps I should just make a new page for this purpose?) > > Use your NameSpace (e.g. VladimirKosovac/) as a sandbox. You can > prototype entire trees of documents, then use ''More Actions: > Rename > Page'' for each page to move it to Docs/Drafts/. > Yes, figured that earlier this morning and started already. >> * Should I bother you with this stuff or post such questions to the list? > > Yes. :) I'm always happy to help directly, but there is an advantage to > sending to the list. OK then, I'll post to the list and CC quaid, so that both these are accomplished. . . Just kidding. If anything, we all learn that there really aren't > any bad questions, just unasked ones. So, here's a recursive example. > > - Karsten Thanks, Vladimir

1 0

Re: Re: Administration Guide modules and getting started
by Dimitrios Typaldos 07 Dec '06

07 Dec '06

I might have mis-interpreted the last message. Is this meaning that a second editor is not necessary for this chapter ? Apologies if this happened. Dimitri o-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------o pub 1024D/6A7B898C 2006-11-16 Key fingerprint = F892 27EB 871A 3C16 B18E 3AD5 3A6A 3F77 6A7B 898C uid Dimitrios Typaldos (Encrypted) sub 2048g/4773BB57 2006-11-16 ----- Original Message ---- From: Dan Smith <draciron(a)gmail.com> To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 4:23:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Administration Guide modules and getting started I've already done a rough on dir structure and partitioning so far. Just trying to figure the protocol about adding them in. Want to get some feedback primarily on the style I'm using for the documentation. -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

1 0

workflow
by Karsten Wade 07 Dec '06

07 Dec '06

Here is a gathering of all the good but disparate pages on the Wiki under one workflow page. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WorkFlow If there is a page at any URL that is important to our workflow, it should be linked from that page. Whatever is missing, please add it; help make it more clear; add new workflows to gather pages underneath. I tried to cover the Wiki basics, since those are in demand. We also need a brushing of XML, and there are a few stubs for Plone. Thanks. :) cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

1 0

just Fedora [RFC]
by Karsten Wade 06 Dec '06

06 Dec '06

Based on conversations on fedora-advisory-board and the state of the future, I propose we start using the word "Fedora" in all our documentation to refer to: * The distribution itself * The set of packages * The project For the project case, I think a good style is this: "For the first instance of referring to the formal project, use 'Fedora Project' to set the context, then use 'Fedora' afterward to refer back to the project. If writing about both the project and the distribution, use 'Fedora Project' in all cases, referring to the distribution as 'Fedora'." We definitely want to stop using 'Fedora Core' for documentation in the future. Although we still need to identify the difference between 'Core' and 'Extras' in FC6 documentation, we can start to use 'Fedora' in place of 'Fedora Core' now to save us the work of changing it later. When things are settled around "The server version of Fedora is called Fedora Foo, and the desktop live-CD is called Fedora Bar," then we'll use those terms. However, since the different flavors do not exist yet, we don't need to start worrying about them. :) - Karsten, who hates search and replace in the Wiki -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

2 2

RE: Re: Administration Guide modules and getting started
by Thierry 06 Dec '06

06 Dec '06

> > >Thierry, > >Regarding the edit rights on the wiki you need to create a wiki account >and sign the CLA. > >Everything is described here: >http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiEditing > >Paulo Well I _should_ have specified that I have already done this but still no luck with editing Thierry

3 4

irc log FDSCo/FDP meeting 05-Dec-2006
by Karsten Wade 05 Dec '06

05 Dec '06

Here is the entire meeting log. 17:06 < quaid> <meeting> 17:06 < quaid> and sometimes we start a few minutes lae :) 17:06 < quaid> s/lae/late/ 17:06 * quaid pings some FDSCo folks 17:06 < quaid> stickster_afk, BobJensen 17:07 * EvilBob waves 17:07 < EvilBob> BobJensen 17:09 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/TaskSc \hedule 17:09 < quaid> as something to work against 17:10 < quaid> ok, I can give the DUG status 17:10 < quaid> I'm holding it up as Publication Editor, not for any particular re\ason other than ... 17:10 < quaid> i) how do we signify the real content v. Docs/Drafts/? 17:10 < quaid> ii) I want to do a final read through. 17:11 < quaid> we have a problem of content scattered in many locations 17:11 < quaid> and now we have the Docs/Drafts/ URL itself linked from the splash\ page 17:11 < quaid> which in hindsight was a mistake 17:11 < quaid> we should have done a link to Docs/DesktopUserGuide and done a red\irect to the draft until publish. 17:12 < quaid> but we need a way to signify a "version for the latest FC version"\ and "this is for the next FC version" 17:12 < quaid> Docs/ is the former, Docs/Drafts/ is the latter 17:12 < quaid> so ... 17:12 < quaid> how does it sound to ... 17:12 < quaid> have a big link on Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide that links to the \published version on Docs/ 17:13 < quaid> then let the Drafts/ go back to being a draft for F*7 17:13 < EvilBob> +1 17:16 < quaid> yeah, hadn't articulated that before, but it makes sense now that \I write it out :) 17:17 < vnk_fd> is DUG considered completed? 17:18 < quaid> well, except for my publication edit 17:18 < quaid> we can add to it with FC6 content once live, though 17:18 < quaid> publication edit is me reading every page one last time to normali\ze markup, wordsmith, etc. 17:19 < quaid> I just set that for Thursday this week (07 Dec) 17:19 < quaid> if I don't have time before then, I have some time that afternoon \to work on it. 17:19 < quaid> the meta problem here is that not enough people can fill the "Publ\ication Editor" role 17:19 < quaid> partially because the knowledge to do that role is not updated :7 17:19 < EvilBob> Don't forget we have to also work ont he r-n the end of the week\ also but they should not take much time 17:20 < quaid> ok, I'm not primary on that but I'll back you all up 17:20 < quaid> also, some of you all out there might want to excercise new XML sk\ills for that 17:20 < quaid> oh, I ran past the first agenda item 17:21 < quaid> any objections or discussion about folding f-dsco-l into f-docs-l? 17:21 < vnk_fd> back to the original proposal for a sec? 17:21 < quaid> vnk_fd: go ahead 17:21 < vnk_fd> do we need perhaps two 'draft' areas, then 17:21 * quaid puts the 0 item on hold 17:21 < vnk_fd> one for FC7 17:21 < EvilBob> I would like us to wait 6 months before closing that list, see i\f we can make the list useful, if we can't do that in 6 months fold it up 17:22 < vnk_fd> and the other for incomplete stuff *FC6) 17:23 < quaid> EvilBob: what do you see happening on that list in the meantime? 17:24 < quaid> EvilBob: at least on thing I think is that I should send all FDSCo\ agenda, meeting stuff, etc. to f-docs-l at least in parallel 17:24 < EvilBob> quaid: Goes along with what I mentioned earlier about how we use\ our meetings and lists 17:24 < quaid> EvilBob: is the concern that we bore the regular folks with boring\ business/ 17:24 < quaid> ? 17:24 < quaid> vnk_fd: that is a good question 17:24 < EvilBob> yes 17:25 < quaid> vnk_fd: maybe when we publish, we should do two things: 17:25 < quaid> 1. Copy to Docs/FooGuide 17:25 < quaid> 2. Copy to Docs/Drafts/7/FooGuide 17:25 < quaid> s/7/6/ in this case 17:26 < quaid> EvilBob: so back to the question then, what constitutes boring bus\iness? 17:26 < EvilBob> the list is open for those that are interested we don't prevent \list membership on that list really 17:26 * quaid pays for his opening two agenda items at the same time by handling\ two discussions at the same time. 17:26 < quaid> EvilBob: but what about the obscurity? 17:27 < quaid> that is, I think that most of what is sent to f-dsco-l is of inter\est to f-docs-l 17:27 < EvilBob> quaid: IMO a lot of the tools and tool chain stuff may be boring\ to some 17:27 * quaid is appreciating a chance to knock this idea about, since this is t\he first he is really thinking about it 17:28 < EvilBob> I will let you go back to Item 0, I need to deal with family stu\ff for a few 17:29 < quaid> ok 17:29 < quaid> I'm willing to not decide yet on that item anyway 17:29 < vnk_fd> ok, then quickly 17:29 < vnk_fd> 1. quaid publishes to Docs/FooGuide 17:30 < vnk_fd> 1. writers do Docs/Drafts/rel.ver./FooGuide 17:31 < vnk_fd> that one should have been 2. 17:33 < quaid> well, sure, anyone can do most of those parts 17:33 < quaid> iirc about the ACLs, that is 17:33 < quaid> vnk_fd: sounds fine 17:34 < quaid> so Docs/Drafts == rawhide 17:34 < quaid> Docs/Drafts/rel.ver. == release branch 17:34 < EvilBob> rawhide == development 17:34 < quaid> oh, foo 17:34 < quaid> :) 17:36 < quaid> are we comfie with rel.ver. == a prime number? 17:36 < quaid> rather than include "FC" "FF" "F*" 17:36 < quaid> in the same way we don't have to say Docs/FedoraDesktopUserGuide 17:37 < quaid> because Fedora is in the name fedoraproject.org 17:37 < quaid> ? 17:37 < quaid> s/comfie/comfortable/ 17:37 * quaid is comfie with that, fwiw 17:37 < vnk_fd> simpler, the better 17:37 < EvilBob> yes 17:37 < EvilBob> less redundancy 17:38 < vnk_fd> that's if you're comfie with 6 as prime number :-) 17:38 < EvilBob> releases will still be numbered once it is Fedora Freebase 17:38 < quaid> um, I meant 17:39 < quaid> s/prime/whole/ 17:39 < quaid> :) 17:39 * quaid is obviously an English Lit major and not a Math major 17:39 < quaid> ok, so be it 17:40 < vnk_fd> ok 17:43 < EvilBob> OK is item 0 covered? 17:43 < vnk_fd> yes 17:44 -!- mspevack_afk [n=mspevack@fedora/mspevack] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:44 < quaid> and item 1 17:44 < EvilBob> quaid: for the record i would like to paste some of my ideas fro\m our earlier brainstorm 17:45 < quaid> go ahead 17:45 < quaid> what subject? 17:46 < EvilBob> if FDSCo could use it's mailing list more the "business" meeting\ could be 15-30 minutes and then we shift gears to work with everyone brainstormi\ng, one on one colab, groups working on training or what ever is needed it would \make the FDSCo meeting less important because we talk on list, it would also be m\ore inclusive for the FDSCo members that are in other time zones would also make \docs in general more inclusive because we can 17:46 < EvilBob> take what we work on in the "free time" of the meetings to the \general docs list also 17:47 < EvilBob> Meeting format idea and how it relates to us having two mailing \lists 17:47 < quaid> ok 17:48 < quaid> to do that people would actually have to respond and solve busines\s on list 17:48 * quaid looks at the agenda 17:48 < quaid> I can see stuff that would be best to discuss on list 17:49 < quaid> but it seems like its worth keeping on f-docs-l 17:49 < quaid> EvilBob: what constitutes business then? 17:50 < EvilBob> I have not figured that out yet... LOL 17:50 < quaid> heh 17:50 < EvilBob> Tools and Tool chain, can be a bit geeky to non-programmer types\ for one 17:50 < quaid> well, i do think more on-list discussion would save us on some sub\jects 17:51 < quaid> hmm 17:51 < quaid> that would beg a separate tools list, not to push that content to \fdsco list 17:51 < quaid> even then, hmmm 17:51 < EvilBob> I agree, I would think that we start by pushing to fdsco-list an\d then if right we move out to docs-list 17:52 < quaid> but the toolchain is not a steering committee exclusive subject 17:52 < EvilBob> some of the development stuff that we talkabout as fdsco may not\ be of interest to our writers 17:52 < quaid> also, one of our goals is the production of a toolchain, so we nee\d one location that everyone can get updates about it from. 17:52 < quaid> it is coincidental that most of the toolchain folks are on FDSCo 17:53 < quaid> but not exclusive 17:53 < EvilBob> Yes I agree 17:53 < quaid> tsekine and glezos for example have contributed to the discussion,\ on f-docs-l 17:53 < quaid> patches, etc. 17:53 < EvilBob> open the list up so those that are interested in teh development\ of our tools and tool chain can join 17:53 < quaid> well, I think I'd first want to hear from the general list that to\ols needs a separate discussion area 17:53 < EvilBob> +1 17:54 < EvilBob> would be a "refocusing" of the fdsco list IMO 17:54 < quaid> well, not really 17:54 < EvilBob> rather than kill that list and start another 17:55 < quaid> I don't agree with pushing tools to that list, personally 17:55 < quaid> it's more confusing 17:55 < quaid> my instinct is to fold into one list and handle it all there 17:55 < quaid> that the more we spread, the more we lose 17:55 < EvilBob> as long as most of our contributors are OK with that I will be a\lso 17:56 < quaid> can you ask the question on list? just the general "move tools or\ leave here" question, not where. 17:56 * quaid doesn't want to overstay his posting for the week 17:56 < EvilBob> Sure i will ask tonight 17:57 < EvilBob> Item 1 closed IMO 17:57 < EvilBob> address again next week based on list input 17:58 < quaid> sure 17:59 < quaid> ok, we've got megacoder and eitch MIA with a couple of important p\rojects on them 17:59 < quaid> so I'll send email directly to find out what their status us 17:59 * quaid has been updating http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Steeri \ngCommittee/TaskSchedule as we're going along 17:59 < quaid> next we can address from there with present company is the relnote\s update 17:59 < quaid> EvilBob: anything we need to think about there? 18:00 < EvilBob> on the subject of open projects, we have a large number of items\ on our taskSchedule that are quite old and should ether be handed off or flat ou\ t killed 18:01 < EvilBob> in the stalled section 18:01 < quaid> stalled == bad press? 18:01 < EvilBob> Evaluate and integrate RPM Guide into Building Packages Guide as\ an example 18:02 < quaid> well, we can work on that as part of the working meeting 18:02 < EvilBob> tht item was drafted by ignacio and he is completely MIA, what d\o we do with that draft? 18:03 < EvilBob> he does not answer emails or phone calls, no response by postal \mail either 18:04 < EvilBob> I was just wondering if we had a policy on orphaned drafts/docs/\contributions 18:04 < quaid> we don't yet 18:04 < quaid> we could move them to an orphan section of some kind, but we don't\ want them to disappear 18:06 < EvilBob> there is at least one item on there (stalled section) that I kno\w I cold out the guys from the unity project to work on 18:06 * quaid finished his edits to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/St \eeringCommittee/TaskSchedule 18:06 < EvilBob> s/cold/could 18:06 < quaid> that is, the updates for the day are done there 18:06 < quaid> one second, let me formally wrap up the business 18:06 < EvilBob> sure 18:07 < quaid> I want to move the FLOSS docs summit back to the list for discussi\on, John and I have proposed two related directions, and that's where it sits 18:07 < quaid> maybe this is all in his and my mind, I dunno :) 18:07 < EvilBob> are you editing that page? 18:08 < EvilBob> If so can you please fix my WikiName on the release notes item 18:08 < EvilBob> BobJensen 18:09 < quaid> ok 18:10 < quaid> done 18:10 < EvilBob> thanks 18:12 < BobJensen> Where are we with the moin update and plone testing/migration? 18:13 < quaid> ok, that was all the agenda items 18:13 < quaid> we can go back to discussing stale stuff 18:13 < quaid> oh, sorry 18:13 < quaid> you are right, there are those items 18:14 < BobJensen> who are the contacts for those items and how much do we pick a\t the scabs? 18:14 < BobJensen> LOL 18:16 < quaid> ok, on Moin for the docbook and 1.6 stuff 18:16 < quaid> we need someone to help with the Python in Moin Moin and most like\ly be the maintainer 18:16 < quaid> of that code 18:16 < quaid> for us and for Moin Moin 18:17 < quaid> hmm 18:17 < BobJensen> OK so we need a "help wanted" page on the wiki see if we can't\ get a snake charmer 18:17 < quaid> I posted to f-infrastructure-; 18:17 < BobJensen> OK 18:17 < quaid> nneed to do the same to f-websites-l 18:17 < quaid> and maybe ask whoever packages it for Fedora 18:18 < quaid> ok, I split the tasks out on the task schedule 18:18 < quaid> the 1.5.6 upgrade is happening already, see the list for testing r\equest 18:18 < BobJensen> I am going to put an open request out on the Fedora Unity site\s for a python developer for some stuff we need done there, maybe we can find som\e one to come over to docs to help also 18:19 < quaid> cool 18:19 < quaid> I posted to f-websites-l 18:20 < quaid> we'll see if that helps, and I'll try to find the packager from FE 18:20 * quaid doesn't know how to do that 18:20 < BobJensen> I can track that down easy enough, should be on the owners lis\t 18:21 < BobJensen> When I get the maintainers name I will pass the contact info o\n to you if you don't find it first 18:23 < quaid> ok, thx 18:23 < BobJensen> http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/viewcvs/owners/owners.list?root=e \xtras&view=markup 18:24 < BobJensen> It is Thias from FreshRPMs matthias(a)rpmforge.net 18:26 < quaid> ah, ok 18:26 < quaid> he probably doesn't want to help with the Python, but we'll ask :) 18:26 < quaid> hmmm 18:26 * quaid ponders filing all this as a bug request :) 18:27 < BobJensen> BZ is many time the best way to reach him I am told 18:28 < quaid> ok, I'll try that 18:29 < BobJensen> Jon "daMaestro" Steffan is the lead packager for Zope and Plon\e now, He got a python work out over the last week on another project with me 18:30 < BobJensen> s/packager/packager for Extras 18:31 < BobJensen> I had not looked at my Docs email I now see the email from pau\lo about the test 18:34 < BobJensen> quaid: need to take a little break here and put the kids to be\d, will see you in a few 18:34 < quaid> ok, bug filed 18:34 < quaid> ok 18:35 * quaid works on more stuff 18:42 < cdehaan> Meeting closed or still running? 18:43 -!- cdehaan [n=Cody(a)dynamic-addr-88-162.resnet.rochester.edu] has quit [] 18:44 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser(a)195.229.25.134] has joined #fedora-docs 18:44 < jmbuser> Good morning! 18:44 < quaid> jmbuser: good morning 18:45 < quaid> see, one reason to hang out, jmbuser eventually wakes up 18:45 < jmbuser> Yawwwwn (tired, not bored) 18:47 < jmbuser> Did I miss anything? :-) 18:52 < quaid> well 18:52 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu] has joined\ #fedora-docs 18:52 < quaid> the business stuff was discussed :) 18:52 < quaid> cdehaan: we are done with the agenda and are just in 'working meet\ing' mode 18:52 < cdehaan> OK 18:54 < jmbuser> Very good 18:56 < jmbuser> mether: The customizing yum section is developing nicely. 19:00 < quaid> aye 19:00 < quaid> mether is great for a well organized brain dump of good stuff :) 19:03 < jmbuser> quaid: As is your Docs Projects Workflow - I see I already have \violated the wiki editing process 19:04 < quaid> uh, oh 19:04 < quaid> jmbuser: what did you do ? :) 19:05 < quaid> jmbuser: we just made that up an hour or so ago, so it is adaptive\ v. set in stone 19:05 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu] has quit [\Remote closed the connection] 19:06 < jmbuser> quaid:Is this a old process (in which I plead ignorance of the l\aw - I want a lawyer) or a new one (better to seek forgiveness than ask permissio\n)? 19:06 < jmbuser> quaid: Ok 19:06 * quaid thinks his previous line crossed jmbuser in the ether 19:06 < quaid> yeah :) 19:06 < quaid> jmbuser: tell me what you did differently? I forget ... 19:07 < jmbuser> quaid: No, it was too good to waste 19:08 < jmbuser> I took the Work Flow Ideas, copied it to my sandbox, chopped it \up and moved it back to the docsproject area as "ready to publish". 19:12 < quaid> oh, interesting 19:13 < quaid> I consider that to be different 19:13 < quaid> that is project documentation 19:13 < quaid> which is different from "Fedora documentation for end-users" 19:13 < quaid> the latter goes in Docs/ and Docs/Drafts 19:13 < quaid> the former in DocsProject/ 19:14 < quaid> and you are right, what you did is a 100% legit workflow for i) ne\w ideas and ii) new project content 19:14 < jmbuser> quaid:That's good 19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu] has joined\ #fedora-docs 19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu] has left #\fedora-docs ["Ex-Chat"] 19:15 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu] has joined\ #fedora-docs 19:20 * vnk_fd must go, battery dying 19:21 -!- vnk_fd [n=vnk(a)202-74-202-139.static.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:26 -!- megacoder [n=MegaCode(a)c-71-231-222-164.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined \#fedora-docs 19:29 < quaid> megacoder: howdy 19:29 < megacoder> who are you ;-? 19:29 < megacoder> hi; long time no C 19:30 < quaid> how are you? 19:31 -!- cdehaan [n=cdehaan(a)dynamic-addr-88-167.resnet.rochester.edu] has quit [\Remote closed the connection] 19:32 < megacoder> Well enough; I've been buried deep in the bowels of Boeing fro\m can til can't. 19:32 < megacoder> That's OK, nobody calls a consultant when things are rosy. 19:32 < quaid> ye ha! 19:34 < quaid> megacoder: I was actually going to summon you to find out if you h\ave made or are going to be able to make progress on ... 19:34 < megacoder> no, and no. I'm just snowed and have very little available ti\me. 19:35 < quaid> ok coolio 19:35 < megacoder> I've missed the goings on and am skipping supper to drop by. 19:36 < megacoder> Of course, at 23 stone, that's not _that_ much of a sacrifice.\.. 19:37 < quaid> :D 19:37 < quaid> well, don't starve much for us 19:38 < quaid> I really should do minutes for these meetings, but I often forget 19:38 < megacoder> np, I sometimes fast for hours 19:39 < megacoder> I was gonna try to sit in on stickster's XML tutorial on Satur\day, for moral support 19:40 < jmbuser> quaid:Yes, please do minutes or post the irc - have you ever use\d irc2html? 19:42 < quaid> nope 19:44 < quaid> jmbuser: i always post the IRC, but it is nice for others to do a \summary or minutes, but I'm not always that nice 19:44 < jmbuser> quaid: It's a perl script that "pretty prints" chat logs and con\verts it to html - as the name implies - and the license is 19:45 < jmbuser> quaid:copyrighted, but free use with attribution 19:48 * quaid just pastes the plain text, since he doesn't send HTML email anywa\y 19:49 < jmbuser> quaid:I volunteer to do meeting minutes, but it's better if I wa\s actually able to attend the meeting. 19:49 < quaid> jmbuser: :) 19:49 < quaid> jmbuser: we're still struggling with what is going to be a good ti\me 19:50 < jmbuser> quaid: One of the challenges of a global community - time zones \and sleep cycles 19:50 < quaid> I'm going to close now and send a final IRC log, since I need to p\ut some moppets to bed 19:50 < quaid> jmbuser: word 19:51 < jmbuser> Signing off to go to work 19:51 < quaid> we will probably move to a rotating schedule of some kind, so at\ least we are kind in revolution 19:51 < quaid> </meeting> -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

1 0

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

docs December 2006