Docs Meeting 2009-12-10 IRC log
by Eric Christensen
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00:00:00 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec 10 00:00:00 2009 UTC. The
chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at
http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea
#link #topic.
00:00:07 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
00:00:08 * Sparks
00:00:14 * Sparks
00:00:27 * jjmcd .
00:00:55 * radsy .
00:02:56 * Sparks gives everyone a few more minutes to arrive.
00:03:37 <radsy> rudi not in the office yet
00:04:06 <Sparks> slacker
00:04:55 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started.
00:05:00 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
00:05:09 <Sparks> Discussion of Yelp vs. HTML
00:05:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: Anything else on this?
00:05:42 <jjmcd> bah
00:05:46 <jjmcd> wrong window
00:05:53 <jjmcd> we've always done it that way
00:06:11 <jjmcd> To tell the truth, that is probably the largest reason
we are still using yelp
00:06:26 <jjmcd> Now, it does put our release notes a little more up front
00:06:52 <jjmcd> And now that we have a way to select language for html,
yelp loses a big advantage it had
00:06:56 <Sparks> I wonder if people read stuff that is on their system
or if they read it online.
00:07:07 <jjmcd> I dunno
00:07:16 * Sparks would really like to get limesurvey reviewed so he
could answer some of these questions.
00:07:38 <jjmcd> We used to put a ton of stuff in /usr/share/doc with no
links or anything, so it seems pretty unlikely that someone would find it
00:07:44 <Sparks> Yes
00:07:47 <Sparks> which is not good.
00:08:15 <jjmcd> Although, I guess in the distant past I would rummage
around to see what is there ... don't know how many others do that tho
00:08:52 <jjmcd> radsy, FYI, I sent Sparks a prog to package a multilang
publican html
00:08:55 <Sparks> I'm against blindly putting documentation on someone's
computer and not linking to it from the GUI somehow
00:09:12 <jjmcd> Well, not everyone is such a huge fan of the gui
00:09:25 <jjmcd> ANd EVERY application has unlinked dox in /usr/share/doc
00:09:35 <jjmcd> SO you do know where to look
00:09:37 <jjmcd> or should
00:09:50 <Sparks> Well, if you aren't using a gui then you already know
your way around /usr
00:10:01 <jjmcd> I would hate to have a menu item for every sub of
/usr/share/doc and /usr/share/doc/HTML
00:10:16 <jjmcd> There are literally thousands of them
00:10:21 <Sparks> I'm talking about OUR documentation
00:10:37 <jjmcd> So knowing where they are is almost as good as having a
menu choice, and less clutter
00:10:40 <jjmcd> Well, yeah
00:10:48 <jjmcd> I like having RN on the menu
00:11:01 <Sparks> It would be a horrible experience for someone to
install the admin guide and then have it not show up on the desktop
somewhere
00:11:30 <jjmcd> I dunno, I install things I don't expect to see on the
desktop
00:11:36 <Sparks> Well, I have mixed feelings about Yelp versus HTML
00:11:54 <jjmcd> Yeah, there's a little to be said fo each
00:11:58 <Sparks> Yelp is good at what it does... but only does it for
one of our desktops
00:12:25 <jjmcd> No reason not to run yelp from kde tho. We just don't
put the link there
00:12:59 <jjmcd> Altho maybe it pulls in a lot of crap like every KDE
app does on a gnome system
00:13:18 <Sparks> yeah
00:13:34 <Sparks> Well, I hope to see some promise in the March
meeting... if that happens
00:13:40 <jjmcd> It would be good if rudi was here
00:14:22 <jjmcd> That would really be good. But even assuming it is all
rebecca at sunnybrook farms, there are still advantages to html
00:14:45 <jjmcd> One prob w/yelp is it reads all the xml files when you
open the doc
00:15:08 <jjmcd> It displays the first file before it is done, but on a
big doc, it keeps the cpu pinned for a long time
00:15:47 <Sparks> I think that was something that was going to be remedied
00:16:17 <jjmcd> Well, it might help, but it also doesn't do the index,
which is now pretty important on release notes
00:16:49 <jjmcd> Because the yum groups make no sense, that is the only
way you can find things
00:17:09 <Sparks> Have we filed bugs upstream for all these problems?
00:17:45 <jjmcd> I've filed bugs on Fedora for those apps, but not
upstream. I assume that is the maintainer's role
00:18:34 <Sparks> Okay. As long as we'
00:18:48 <Sparks> they haven't been filed... :)
00:19:47 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on this topic?
00:20:01 <jjmcd> I did update the doc on that packaging app a couple
times on fedorapeople dunno if you saw that
00:20:15 <jjmcd> added some pictures to hopefully make a little more sense
00:20:44 <Sparks> cool. I haven't had a chance to surf over there lately.
00:21:08 <jjmcd> I need to find some guides to play with
00:21:20 <jjmcd> but most either don't build or have no translations
00:22:34 <Sparks> Yeah
00:22:49 <Sparks> Okay, moving on...
00:22:54 <Sparks> #topic Status on CMS (Zikula)
00:23:00 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula#Module_status
00:23:20 <Sparks> Apparently a lot of work was completed at FUDCon.
00:23:31 * Sparks wishes ke4qqq could be here tonight.
00:23:52 <Sparks> I finally got menutree squared away and pushed.
00:24:10 <Sparks> But it was a little premature as ke4qqq hasn't gotten
zikula 1.2 out the door, yet. Opps.
00:24:19 <radsy> is there a live demo of this somewhere still?
00:24:46 <Sparks> I'm working MediaAttach, though, and am planning on
yanking out the bad bits and packaging the rest. We can see, then, if
it breaks.
00:24:56 <Sparks> radsy: mchua I think has one up for Insight.
00:26:52 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions?
00:27:47 <Sparks> Okay, moving on...
00:27:53 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
00:28:00 <jjmcd> what happened to 543540
00:28:05 <Sparks> Anyone have any guides they want to discuss?
00:28:11 <Sparks> .bug 543540
00:28:12 <buggbot> Bug
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=543540 medium, low,
- ---, rlandman, ASSIGNED, Usability of http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ is
poor
00:28:12 <zodbot> Sparks: Bug 543540 Usability of
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ is poor -
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=543540
00:28:14 <buggbot> Bug 543540: medium, low, ---, rlandman, ASSIGNED,
Usability of http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ is poor
00:28:34 <jjmcd> was on the schedule b4 zik only reason i asked
00:28:43 <Sparks> jjmcd: I thought that was from last week so I just
removed it.
00:28:52 <jjmcd> ah,ok
00:29:06 <radsy> it's likely to change again before zikula?
00:29:12 <Sparks> jjmcd: Unless you have something further on it. I
don't really see a resolution to it until Zikula is fielded.
00:29:29 <jjmcd> I see Paul wanted us to discuss the sked but that will
take some time before we can have a meaningful discussion
00:29:38 <radsy> i find it pretty usable as it is
00:29:46 <jjmcd> I expect zikula won't help
00:29:49 <Sparks> I find it MUCH more useable .
00:30:20 <jjmcd> Altho, I like the original idea of the initial single
dropdown for a language
00:31:16 <radsy> imo the focus should be on getting zikula up instead of
another re-design
00:31:38 <radsy> re-arranging deck chairs...
00:31:42 <jjmcd> I tend to agree, but if anything, zikula will make that
harder
00:32:18 <jjmcd> The problem is what it should look like. At best
Zikula will be equivalent to raw php. More likely it will be a constraint
00:32:54 <jjmcd> So I'm not so sure the redesign is wasted. Although,
having Zikula in hand may avoid some dead ends
00:33:08 <Sparks> I think we should get some of the design folks in on
this dicussion once we get Zikula up and running
00:33:23 <jjmcd> Yes, I think that is the best plan
00:33:24 <Sparks> Right now we don't have the base setup to build on
00:33:43 <Sparks> Okay, any guide issues?
00:33:45 <jjmcd> Assuming we will EVER see Zikula up and running
00:34:06 <Sparks> #topic New Guides
00:34:12 <Sparks> Any new guides coming out>?
00:34:32 <jjmcd> I made a little more headway on ARG
00:34:37 <Sparks> ARG?
00:34:38 <jjmcd> OH, yes
00:34:39 <Sparks> Oh
00:34:44 <Sparks> Amateur Radio Guide
00:34:50 <jjmcd> convert -alpha on
00:34:58 <jjmcd> Makes the colors right in pdf
00:35:04 <Sparks> cool
00:35:12 <radsy> i'm kicking around the idea of a solaris -> fedora/rhel
sysadmin/migration guide
00:35:31 <radsy> just to highlight differences
00:35:59 <Sparks> radsy: You getting this from the new Sun Admin -> RHCE
class I saw today?
00:36:06 <radsy> but RHEL duties for already existing stuff are taking a
lot of my time right now
00:36:12 <radsy> no Sparks?
00:36:18 <Sparks> ha
00:36:34 <Sparks> Yeah, there's a new Sun admin -> RHCE class out there...
00:36:49 <radsy> damn it, beaten ;)
00:37:01 * Sparks hasn't touched a lot of Solaris boxes lately.
00:37:23 <Sparks> Okay... moving onward...
00:37:23 <jjmcd> Didn't that run on PDP-4's or something?
00:37:26 <radsy> i used to admin it, still use it at home
00:37:48 <Sparks> #topic F13 Schedule
00:38:08 <Sparks> Okay... I think we need to come up with a slightly
different plan that the F12 release
00:38:46 <Sparks> I didn't like the devel -> translation freeze -> devel
- -> wash, rinse, repeat
00:39:02 <Sparks> We should be constantly pushing pot files
00:39:04 <Sparks> IMO
00:39:24 <radsy> has there been any movement on a way to get breaking
info from devs more easily, ie. lessons learned from the F12/PackageKit
fiasco?
00:39:34 <jjmcd> How does L10N feel about that
00:39:34 <Sparks> If we have thousands of lines of text that need to be
translated we shouldn't be dumping it on the translators for a week
00:40:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: Not sure... but if we get a paragraph done now
why not?
00:40:25 <Sparks> radsy: Not sure.
00:40:32 <jjmcd> Well, they like to see those percentages. Might be a
disincentive to have a moving target
00:41:02 <Sparks> I said it last release and didn't really follow
through but we really need to have a drop dead date to get all the text in.
00:41:32 <jjmcd> radsy, one problem is that people have conversations in
groups and assume everyone else is read in
00:41:36 <Sparks> You knew these changes were happening months ago, you
shouldn't come running up to use three hours before the release with it
00:42:07 <jjmcd> And really, probably everything gets discusses on
dev-list, but who can wade through all the crap
00:42:18 <Sparks> jjmcd: I think transifex 0.7 will help alot.
Translations will be broken down by chapter...
00:42:47 <jjmcd> And that will come along how long after zikula?
00:42:50 <Sparks> If you know something is changing you should write up
a quick paragraph and submit a ticket on it. simple as that.
00:43:06 * jjmcd has a problem depending on vaporware
00:43:07 <Sparks> WTHK
00:43:09 <radsy> it might only take someone to maintain some sort of
changelog of significant changes from last release
00:43:33 <jjmcd> The feature list is supposed to be that
00:44:10 <jjmcd> And different people have different perceptions of
"significant"
00:44:25 <Sparks> maybe we should define significant
00:44:39 <jjmcd> The PackageKit thing was just a minor change to a
policy, no code changed at all
00:44:59 <Sparks> a minor change with big implications
00:45:17 <jjmcd> Depends on your perspective
00:45:50 <Sparks> I'm pretty sure everyone was in agreement that it had
big implications
00:46:11 <jjmcd> A change to fldigi might be a real big deal to me, but
to most people?
00:46:38 <jjmcd> We look at changes to MySQL as a big deal, but in
reality, how many people actually use it?
00:46:54 <Sparks> Who's to say that the fldigi change shouldn't end up
in the RN?
00:47:05 <jjmcd> Well, yeah.
00:47:33 <jjmcd> It's always a judgement call as to what is significant,
tho, and depending on where you are sitting, things change a lot
00:47:45 <Darkedge> Any chance of someone doing an RPM Packages lesson?
00:48:27 <jjmcd> Whatever happened to the classroom? I havent heard
anything lately
00:48:30 <Sparks> jjmcd: So we should include as much stuff as we can.
00:48:47 <radsy> Darkedge,
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/drafts/rpm-guide-en/ ?
00:48:48 <jjmcd> Except that make it hard to find anything and pisses
off the translators
00:48:51 <Sparks> jjmcd: We have a space for the Amateur Radio beat writer.
00:49:05 <jjmcd> yep
00:49:28 <jjmcd> And we have a growing ham community in fedora, too
00:49:37 <Sparks> Well... this has gone way off topic.
00:49:41 <Darkedge> radsy: I just don't find that as good as hanging in
#fedora-classroom because if I don't understAND something, What am I to do?
00:50:06 <Sparks> Darkedge: #fedora-devel is a good place to ask questions
00:50:29 <jjmcd> There have been some RPM classes in the past, but
really, the thing to do is to make a couple of packages
00:50:30 <Sparks> So my thought is that we push pot files early and often
00:50:49 <Sparks> We push our documentation early and often
00:50:50 <jjmcd> We probably should chat with Bimitris about that
00:50:58 <jjmcd> Dimitris - damn typing
00:51:05 <Sparks> we shouldn't be waiting for the very last second to
get all this done
00:51:14 <Sparks> which leads to going over a deadline
00:51:25 <jjmcd> Well, that wasn't our problem this time
00:51:34 * ianweller is kinda halfway here
00:51:45 <jjmcd> Somehow our schedule had us making pots and rpms on the
same day
00:51:50 <radsy> sorry Darkedge - I had no idea that channel existed.
00:52:05 <jjmcd> ANd that day was two weeks too late
00:52:34 <jjmcd> SO yeah, I need to have a long hard look at John's
schedule, and keep looking at it
00:52:37 <Sparks> yes
00:53:02 <Sparks> I'd really like to pull in the L10N folks and really
talk about options.
00:53:22 <Sparks> If they think we can't change and it is what it is...
then they won't know any different
00:53:46 <Sparks> But I don't like it when groups start pulling the
translations out of transifex so no one can use them.
00:53:52 <jjmcd> Yes, that would be good. Should have thought of this a
couple weeks ago so someone could have sat down at FUDcon, I think
glezos was tere
00:54:14 <jjmcd> Yeah, that was kinda pissy
00:54:18 * Sparks ponders the ability to have a gathering in about three
months
00:54:26 <jjmcd> But you know ... French
00:54:35 <Sparks> *snicker*
00:55:29 <Sparks> Anyway, lets have a break-off meeting early next week
to discuss the schedule.
00:55:30 <jjmcd> I think we SHOULD let L10N know they are getting
Publican pots ofr F13. If Tfx can't deal with them then they can deal
with the conversions
00:55:33 <Sparks> poelcat: ^^^
00:55:45 <jjmcd> Might light a fire under the 0.7 effort
00:55:46 <Sparks> I agree
00:56:45 <Sparks> #action Sparks to send a message to L10N and Logistics
about a docs planning meeting for early next week
00:57:26 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to review poelcat's schedule and come up
with a recommendation before the meeting
00:57:34 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on the F13 schedule?
00:57:36 <jjmcd> roger that
00:57:49 <Sparks> jjmcd: Sanity check... :)
00:58:16 <Sparks> Okay, moving on...
00:58:22 <Sparks> #topic Other business
00:58:25 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
00:59:10 <Sparks> Anything at all?
00:59:55 <Sparks> Okay... thanks for coming out everyone!
00:59:58 <Sparks> #endmeeting
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14 years
Fedora Docs Meeting Reminder
by Eric Christensen
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REMINDER: There will be a Fedora Docs Meeting today at 0001 UTC. The
agenda can be found at:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting
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sDjQFxwr/CQTaBKWzT7nEHd2hEs4HmIXDzxzuOPOvjTjK2DzZ7KjoJ3U7KUbQanD
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14 years
Need feedback on Fedora 13 schedule
by John Poelstra
Hi,
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13-draft/f-13-docs-tasks.html
I am still in need of feedback on the documentation schedule for Fedora
13 and so far I have not heard from anyone. I also asked on IRC today
and didn't get a response.
I already have feedback from the translation team, but I can't do
anything with it until I know the documentation schedule is good. Can
someone let me know what your plans/timeline are for reviewing the
drafted Fedora 13 schedule?
I know there are parts of it that are definitely wrong, but I don't want
to invest lots of time guessing at the fixes if you plan to make other
significant changes.
Thanks,
John
14 years
[Bug 503780] New: Fedora 12 Release BLOCKER
by Red Hat Bugzilla
Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional
comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.
Summary: Fedora 12 Release BLOCKER
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=503780
Summary: Fedora 12 Release BLOCKER
Product: Fedora Documentation
Version: devel
Platform: All
OS/Version: Linux
Status: NEW
Severity: medium
Priority: low
Component: project-tracking
AssignedTo: eric(a)christensenplace.us
ReportedBy: eric(a)christensenplace.us
QAContact: kwade(a)redhat.com
CC: fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com
Classification: Fedora
Use this bug to show that a particular bug is blocking your guide/document from
being released in time for Fedora 12.
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are on the CC list for the bug.
14 years
bug reports considered good for our health
by Karsten Wade
I'm really pleased at the quantity _and_ quality of bug reports coming
in for Fedora 12 documentation. (I seem to be on a number of QA
checks for various guides, which I'm glad about.)
We should run the statistics with bugzilla, but I'm getting a gut
feeling about this release based on what I've seen so far. Anyone
else notice this?
* Overall, more bugs across a few main documents (Installation Guide,
Release Notes) and a few others (IIRC). This means:
* More people are reading the content;
* They care enough to file bugs;
* Bug reports are a needed part of improving open content, it's the
open source way;
* Bug reports are a sign of a healthy and engaged community.
* The quality of the bug reports is up. They are mostly associated
with the correct component, are clear in what they find wrong, and
offer solutions and fixes. In fact, just now I saw a bug report[1]
that included a patch, which prompted me to write this email. We've
received a few bugs in translations, including correction
suggestions.
* The component owners have been highly responsive. The recent
improvements around bugzilla process, bug clean-up, and bug
maintenance are showing quality and attention from this team. You
are making Fedora Docs look really good!
Considering that we have more than doubled the number of guides for
the release, with l10n to match, I reckon we actually have _fewer_
bugs per guide.
If anyone cares to know what our real health statistics are around bug
reports, I could get together with you and any others in IRC for a
few hours and draw what we need from bugzilla.
- Karsten
[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=545577
--
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
AD0E0C41
14 years
System Outage this weekend
by Eric Christensen
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Mike sent out a message[1] last week discussing the system outage of
many Fedora systems this coming weekend. While it appears that
docs.fp.o will remain up during this evolution, CVS and the wiki will not.
So if anyone is working on any documentation that needs to get pushed
for the weekend you should have it uploaded to CVS no later than 0600
UTC on 12 Dec 2009.
[1]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2009-December/msg000...
- --Eric
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14 years
Zikula hackfest details
by Mel Chua
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest
If you're joining us online, look in #fedora-mktg for pcalarco (Pascal),
itbegins (Simon) or mchua (myself) and we'll get you started.
If you're joining us in person, head to room 4 in the SEQ building -
we'll be there all day.
Today's goal: get Fedora Insight up on staging and migrate FWN's
workflow to it. Hoo-yah!
--Mel
14 years
Zikula hackfest gameplan
by Mel Chua
Our gameplan for the next two days: everything is at
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest.
Please ask questions, point out holes, etc. - we literally *just* came
up with this. This is also where you can sign up to help.
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula_hackfest#Who.27s_coming)
I think that Sparks and ke4qqq were planning on spending some time with
us, which would be *awesome* - and that mmcgrath will be dropping by at
the end of both days to check in - but I'm not sure what people's plans
actually are, so I just took a guess for me/Simon/Pascal to start.
(Simon, Pascal, feel free to edit this to something more correct and/or
preferential....)
I defaulted to #fedora-mktg as our IRC channel for the day, because I
know we're going to have remote participants, but would be glad to move
it to a more neutral place if there's a better location for this (if
#fedora-logistics were populated, I'd do it there).
Comments? Thoughts? Halp? Yay! We'll keep you updated.
--Mel
14 years
