Hi all,
I don't know if this is off topic, or even just wishful thinking, but has any sort of a welcome wizard been considered?
GNU/Linux (and Fedora) is different to what a lot of new users will have been used to, and some sort of a welcome wizard which just points them in the right direction for common items, i.e. software installer etc might be useful.
I have no idea if other people think this would be worthwhile, or how you might go about creating it! Thoughts?
Jon
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 21:17 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote:
Hi all,
I don't know if this is off topic, or even just wishful thinking, but has any sort of a welcome wizard been considered?
GNU/Linux (and Fedora) is different to what a lot of new users will have been used to, and some sort of a welcome wizard which just points them in the right direction for common items, i.e. software installer etc might be useful.
I have no idea if other people think this would be worthwhile, or how you might go about creating it! Thoughts?
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is kicked off by the completion of firstboot?
What about putting that into the welcome page for the browser, and auto-starting Firefox? Whatever that page looks or acts like, it could have a nicely visible "New Users Start Here" widget that kicks off what you are describing.
It sounds like a confluence of tool and content/media creation, so it is like an interactive tour.
- Karsten
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is kicked off by the completion of firstboot?
Is more or less what I had in mind.
What about putting that into the welcome page for the browser, and auto-starting Firefox? Whatever that page looks or acts like, it could have a nicely visible "New Users Start Here" widget that kicks off what you are describing.
That would be a simple way to achieve the launching of it I would assume, or possibly an option at the end of the firstboot, like you said before.
It sounds like a confluence of tool and content/media creation, so it is like an interactive tour.
I think that might be the most useful way for it to go, but it could even be made simpler and just point to the essentials that new users might miss.
Jon
I like Jonathan's idea. Pointing to the unofficial Fedora FAQ would be one good start. When setting up a new machine most people are going to want MP3 support, plugin support for the browser and many of the other topics covered by the unofficial FAQ. How to automount windoze shares, SMB configurations and how to mount NTFS partitions will be very important to people using mixed environments and dual boots.
Even more important to windoze users first trying out LInux is going to be equivalents. Send them to VI and they'll run screaming into the night back to windoze. So Kedit/Gedit = notepad Openoffice = Word GIMP= photoshop kinds of tutorials would be a big help. So too would how file permissions and such work. How to set up cups is pretty essential. Scanners, digital cameras and such as well. Another crucial aspect is pointing folks toward K3b. It will make CD burning easy for even the most novice windoze user. Nothing comes close in the Linux world to K3b. Though this implies auto installing at least the KDE libs, technically you want to just install KDE. Folks that have space issues that would preclude KDE's installation are not going to use such a wizard anyway. That is one thing I wish Fedora would correct, the default install will put only Gnome on. That leaves half of the important apps uninstalled. A default Fedora install is not a very friendly install to a new Linux user. Vets can easily remove things they don't want, so I feel the install should default more toward the kitchen sink rather than the lean install that is currently used.
The feedback I get from lots of first time Linux users is that they get lost. They have no idea what to do with their brand spanking new Linux installation. Some things like how to configure networking has to be local on the HD. Without it they cannot reach the FAQs on the net.
Other things like pointers to the better Linux games while not important for business users would help generate more interest in Linux. A tutorial on window managers with snap shots of what the major ones look like, how to install them and such would also be a big help. What is especially important is how to configure repositories. They will be unable to use the Unofficial FAQ to get anything through Yum without first adding a repository. I know Redhat does not add this repository to avoid getting sued over copywrites and such but don't see where there'd be any harm in using a certain repository as an example of how to add a repository :)
Going a step farther and automating that process is actually a good idea. While Redhat couldn't support it because of various potential litigation it could point users to the scripts that would auto configure the system to play DVDs, MP3s, add a repository, grab the latest Firefox browser instead of the 1.5 branch that officially comes with Fedora but is nearly obsolete now. Plugins could then be auto installed. Even for Linux vets that would be a huge time saver. Creating a functional machine takes a good hour or two of downloading and installations. I usually wind up forgetting at least a couple plugins then when I need them I wind up having to restart my browser or putting it off. Novice users often get lost in the process. Get frustrated and it gives Linux a bad name. Fedora is also falling behind some distros in facilitating multi-media which is key to many home users.
There is a learning curve no matter what we do but it can be made a whole lot less steep with Jonathan's idea and the script I am proposing.
On 5/16/07, Jonathan Roberts jonathan.roberts.uk@googlemail.com wrote:
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is kicked off by the completion of firstboot?
Is more or less what I had in mind.
What about putting that into the welcome page for the browser, and auto-starting Firefox? Whatever that page looks or acts like, it could have a nicely visible "New Users Start Here" widget that kicks off what you are describing.
That would be a simple way to achieve the launching of it I would assume, or possibly an option at the end of the firstboot, like you said before.
It sounds like a confluence of tool and content/media creation, so it is like an interactive tour.
I think that might be the most useful way for it to go, but it could even be made simpler and just point to the essentials that new users might miss.
Jon
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I fear you might have taken my idea past what I was thinking of...
Even more important to windoze users first trying out LInux is going to be equivalents. Send them to VI and they'll run screaming into the night back to windoze. So Kedit/Gedit = notepad Openoffice = Word GIMP= photoshop kinds of tutorials would be a big help. So too would how file permissions and such work. How to set up cups is pretty essential. Scanners, digital cameras and such as well.
This seems a pretty comprehensive list, going beyond what i originally had in mind. These sorts of things probably belong more in a formal document (thinking the Fedora/Desktop User guide) rather than a quick wizard which orientates you.
Another crucial aspect is pointing folks toward K3b. It will make CD burning easy for even the most novice windoze user. Nothing comes close in the Linux world to K3b. Though this implies auto installing at least the KDE libs, technically you want to just install KDE. Folks that have space issues that would preclude KDE's installation are not going to use such a wizard anyway. That is one thing I wish Fedora would correct, the default install will put only Gnome on. That leaves half of the important apps uninstalled. A default Fedora install is not a very friendly install to a new Linux user. Vets can easily remove things they don't want, so I feel the install should default more toward the kitchen sink rather than the lean install that is currently used.
I think there's good reasons why they've gone with the default package manifest. I don't know exactly what they are but I'm sure others could explain :D
The feedback I get from lots of first time Linux users is that they get lost. They have no idea what to do with their brand spanking new Linux installation. Some things like how to configure networking has to be local on the HD. Without it they cannot reach the FAQs on the net.
Other things like pointers to the better Linux games while not important for business users would help generate more interest in Linux. A tutorial on window managers with snap shots of what the major ones look like, how to install them and such would also be a big help. What is especially important is how to configure repositories. They will be unable to use the Unofficial FAQ to get anything through Yum without first adding a repository. I know Redhat does not add this repository to avoid getting sued over copywrites and such but don't see where there'd be any harm in using a certain repository as an example of how to add a repository :)
Most of these things are currently covered by the Desktop/Fedora User Guide...
There is a learning curve no matter what we do but it can be made a whole lot less steep with Jonathan's idea and the script I am proposing.
Check out Fedora Frog? Might be what you're thinking of. This isn't really what I had in mind though.
Best,
Jon
Dan Smith wrote:
Going a step farther and automating that process is actually a good idea. While Redhat couldn't support it because of various potential litigation it could point users to the scripts that would auto configure the system
No. It can't. This would lead to potential contributory infringement issues.
Rahul
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 11:48 -0500, Dan Smith wrote:
I like Jonathan's idea. Pointing to the unofficial Fedora FAQ would be one good start. When setting up a new machine most people are going to want MP3 support, plugin support for the browser and many of the other topics covered by the unofficial FAQ. How to automount windoze shares, SMB configurations and how to mount NTFS partitions will be very important to people using mixed environments and dual boots.
Ha! Guess I wrote my earlier thread reply too soon. Cf. "contributory infringement." We point to FedoraForum.org already, and I'm sure plenty of people there are willing to help corrupt systems with non-FOSS wherever needed.
Even more important to windoze users first trying out LInux is going to be equivalents. Send them to VI and they'll run screaming into the night back to windoze. So Kedit/Gedit = notepad Openoffice = Word GIMP= photoshop kinds of tutorials would be a big help. So too would how file permissions and such work. How to set up cups is pretty essential. Scanners, digital cameras and such as well. Another crucial aspect is pointing folks toward K3b. It will make CD burning easy for even the most novice windoze user. Nothing comes close in the Linux world to K3b. Though this implies auto installing at least the KDE libs, technically you want to just install KDE. Folks that have space issues that would preclude KDE's installation are not going to use such a wizard anyway. That is one thing I wish Fedora would correct, the default install will put only Gnome on. That leaves half of the important apps uninstalled. A default Fedora install is not a very friendly install to a new Linux user. Vets can easily remove things they don't want, so I feel the install should default more toward the kitchen sink rather than the lean install that is currently used.
This is a huge scattershot of topics, but I think most of these are covered in the sketchpad/checklists of topics for our guides. Perhaps you would like to actually contribute some content for these guides on the wiki? It is open for community contribution; please refer to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Join for information. If wishes were horses... :-)
The feedback I get from lots of first time Linux users is that they get lost. They have no idea what to do with their brand spanking new Linux installation. Some things like how to configure networking has to be local on the HD. Without it they cannot reach the FAQs on the net.
Again, we are open to contributions in the docs. I would consider this a possibility for including in the on-DVD "README" file, if nothing else than telling people where to find the easy network configuration tool already present in the default installation.
Other things like pointers to the better Linux games while not important for business users would help generate more interest in Linux. A tutorial on window managers with snap shots of what the major ones look like, how to install them and such would also be a big help. What is especially important is how to configure repositories. They will be unable to use the Unofficial FAQ to get anything through Yum without first adding a repository. I know Redhat does not add this repository to avoid getting sued over copywrites and such but don't see where there'd be any harm in using a certain repository as an example of how to add a repository :)
See above. Plus the software management guide, which could also use your help. Please feel free to contribute elbow grease as desired.
Going a step farther and automating that process is actually a good idea. While Redhat couldn't support it because of various potential litigation it could point users to the scripts that would auto configure the system to play DVDs, MP3s, add a repository, grab the latest Firefox browser instead of the 1.5 branch that officially comes with Fedora but is nearly obsolete now. Plugins could then be auto installed. Even for Linux vets that would be a huge time saver. Creating a functional machine takes a good hour or two of downloading and installations. I usually wind up forgetting at least a couple plugins then when I need them I wind up having to restart my browser or putting it off. Novice users often get lost in the process. Get frustrated and it gives Linux a bad name. Fedora is also falling behind some distros in facilitating multi-media which is key to many home users.
Feel free to write that script, publish it, and support it on your own website. The Fedora Project and its contributors (including me, a non-Red Hat person) are passionately devoted to free and open source software, and we want our solutions to be supportable in the sense that the community has the power to take them apart and build on them at will without legal repercussions.
There is a learning curve no matter what we do but it can be made a whole lot less steep with Jonathan's idea and the script I am proposing.
Again, I would urge you to step up and get involved beyond simply listing areas where you feel there are weaknesses. If you have time, we have a number of documents in draft form that are waiting for energetic folks to improve. Thanks for your time and consideration, and we look forward to hearing back from you.
On 5/16/07, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 11:48 -0500, Dan Smith wrote:
I like Jonathan's idea. Pointing to the unofficial Fedora FAQ would be one good start. When setting up a new machine most people are going to want MP3 support, plugin support for the browser and many of the other topics covered by the unofficial FAQ. How to automount windoze shares, SMB configurations and how to mount NTFS partitions will be very important to people using mixed environments and dual boots.
Ha! Guess I wrote my earlier thread reply too soon. Cf. "contributory infringement." We point to FedoraForum.org already, and I'm sure plenty of people there are willing to help corrupt systems with non-FOSS wherever needed.
FedoraForum.org has some helpful people there. Some of the FAQs are helpful but the primary focus of a "wizard" would be people new to Linux. People who'll have no idea what they are doing. Those of us that know Linux tend to already know or Google quickly. One problem with the organization of much of the information is the navigation of the information. A second problem is the lack of updates. Thus the inspiration to update the NFS through firewalls FAQ which is very obsolete as an example of how much ancient information is what people will see.
I have no love of Microsoft. I do not run windoze. I have often considered porting all my mp3s to OGG. The reality is that mp3 is the current standard. Oggs are better and there are no patent issues with them but most windoze and Mac users have never even heard of an Ogg. Pngs tend to be much larger than jpgs or I feel pngs would have overtaken jpg as the standard for images. I look at things from a practical viewpoint. We cannot stand on a mountain and expect people too look way up there and say that must be a cool place to be. We have to go down there and show them how to get up that mountain. We are not going to do that by being elitist about anything. I suspect I am like most here in that when I started with Linux I still used windoze for some stuff for a few years until I converted completely to Linux. True Linux has evolved quite a bit since then but we have to deal with reality. A very common situation I've seen is the Techie in the family running Linux machines and maybe having a windoze dual boot for gaming. The non-techie in the house says "don't touch my computer" and runs windoze because that is what they know. So SMB is quite necessary, though I was in one lab where we ran SMB instead of NFS because it was faster and easier despite being a pure Nix shop. So I don't see the shouts of not supporting anything that isn't FOSS. That's just unrealistic at this point. Five or ten years from now might be a different story.
The network tool might seem easy but I've been answering questions from people as young as 12 years old who have no idea what any of this means who are trying out Linux. I'm seeing large numbers of people, some even with obvious edges of technophobia giving Linux a try. I hate seeing any give up and return to windoze. On blogs and such you often see people who tried Linux and failed and you can feel the bitterness dripping in their posts. Especially when the topic of Linux for desktops comes up. My heart drops every time I see one of those. The biggest problem is ourselves really. Linux is more than mature enough to take the desktop world by storm. It is a far superior OS to any other out there in every aspect except for the number of games availible. Linux is easier to run, more secure, less expensive, could require less technical knowledge (unfortunately Linux has not taken advantage of this aspect yet) and can just plain do more on less hardware than any other OS. It is a magnatude more powerful than windoze. Our worst enemy is ourselves. The old school nix elitism. It's been done this way for x many years it should always be done this way kind of thing. That don't cut it with many people and it drives them away.
That is why this idea about a wizard can be such a powerful tool for helping people adapt to Linux. It collects information in a single easy to use place for desktop Linux users, especially those new to Linux but even for vets it can be an easy list of links needed to configure a desktop on a fresh install rather than doing it peicemeal as you run into various file formats and such.
Even more important to windoze users first trying out LInux is going
to be equivalents. Send them to VI and they'll run screaming into the night back to windoze. So Kedit/Gedit = notepad Openoffice = Word GIMP= photoshop kinds of tutorials would be a big help. So too would how file permissions and such work. How to set up cups is pretty essential. Scanners, digital cameras and such as well. Another crucial aspect is pointing folks toward K3b. It will make CD burning easy for even the most novice windoze user. Nothing comes close in the Linux world to K3b. Though this implies auto installing at least the KDE libs, technically you want to just install KDE. Folks that have space issues that would preclude KDE's installation are not going to use such a wizard anyway. That is one thing I wish Fedora would correct, the default install will put only Gnome on. That leaves half of the important apps uninstalled. A default Fedora install is not a very friendly install to a new Linux user. Vets can easily remove things they don't want, so I feel the install should default more toward the kitchen sink rather than the lean install that is currently used.
This is a huge scattershot of topics, but I think most of these are covered in the sketchpad/checklists of topics for our guides. Perhaps you would like to actually contribute some content for these guides on the wiki? It is open for community contribution; please refer to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Join for information. If wishes were horses... :-)
I've actually joined and submitted a rough. Unfortunately I'm a bit of a heretic. I started in DOS, moved to windoze and didn't discover Linux until the mid 90s. Didn't move full time to Linux until the late 90s. I find many old school nix concepts as awkward or just obsolete. For example putting everything in the home dir is insane if you ask me. It is a security problem, it makes for a zillion false alarms when you grep for something and it potentially leads to problems such as a download filling up the partition the home dir is on and the subsequent complaints by Linux when it cannot write to the home dir. So I advocate the seperation of the home dir and data dir. One dir should be for NOTHING but configuration information. The other for user data such as downloads, spreadsheets and such. I do have a rough for NFS. Been out of town most of the last 2 months so I havn't been able to finish it. It is really more of an update on older works showing how to configure NFS to work through firewalls. I still have a glitch to fix and it'll be ready. Would love to have somebody look it over. They could probably see what I'm forgetting at a glance. Had it working, then power went out and had to reboot. When I did one of the daemons went back to random port assignments. Haven't been in town long enough lately to figure out which one.
I am quite happy to put my fingers to work on such projects. The whole reason I joined the documentation project was to give back to the OSS community. I do bring a very different perspective though. I try to see through the eyes of people new to Linux. I'm also going by the kinds of questions I'm seeing on various Linux lists and forums or that I get through IMs and emails.
The feedback I get from lots of first time Linux users is that they
get lost. They have no idea what to do with their brand spanking new Linux installation. Some things like how to configure networking has to be local on the HD. Without it they cannot reach the FAQs on the net.
Again, we are open to contributions in the docs. I would consider this a possibility for including in the on-DVD "README" file, if nothing else than telling people where to find the easy network configuration tool already present in the default installation.
Ah but our target audience isn't going to read a read me. I personally like the idea of using the default browser and opening a local page with the basics and links to other references. Simple HTML will be more than sufficient for the task. Some of it needs to be local such as network configuration. Those who know how to configure a network will for example just skip right past that. Me I find it easier to just edit the various files in a text editor. It's what I've been doing for years and I have more control over the system that way. People new to Linux will want to use the GUI however. Step by step network configuration for dummies would be a big help with some new users. The firewall configuration tool is simple and very good. Most users need only the default settings.
The goal is to create a roadmap to a fully functional system in as short a time as possible presented in such a way that somebody with no technical knowledge can follow this map with little or no frustration and have a fully functional Linux system. Advanced users and functionality of course require the more traditional and more complex documentation.
Other things like pointers to the better Linux games while not
important for business users would help generate more interest in Linux. A tutorial on window managers with snap shots of what the major ones look like, how to install them and such would also be a big help. What is especially important is how to configure repositories. They will be unable to use the Unofficial FAQ to get anything through Yum without first adding a repository. I know Redhat does not add this repository to avoid getting sued over copywrites and such but don't see where there'd be any harm in using a certain repository as an example of how to add a repository :)
See above. Plus the software management guide, which could also use your help. Please feel free to contribute elbow grease as desired.
Point me to whatever areas need work and I'd be glad to help out.
Going a step farther and automating that process is actually a good
idea. While Redhat couldn't support it because of various potential litigation it could point users to the scripts that would auto configure the system to play DVDs, MP3s, add a repository, grab the latest Firefox browser instead of the 1.5 branch that officially comes with Fedora but is nearly obsolete now. Plugins could then be auto installed. Even for Linux vets that would be a huge time saver. Creating a functional machine takes a good hour or two of downloading and installations. I usually wind up forgetting at least a couple plugins then when I need them I wind up having to restart my browser or putting it off. Novice users often get lost in the process. Get frustrated and it gives Linux a bad name. Fedora is also falling behind some distros in facilitating multi-media which is key to many home users.
Feel free to write that script, publish it, and support it on your own website. The Fedora Project and its contributors (including me, a non-Red Hat person) are passionately devoted to free and open source software, and we want our solutions to be supportable in the sense that the community has the power to take them apart and build on them at will without legal repercussions.
I understand your point of view but have to disagree with you. I like you would love nothing more than to see Microsoft wiped off the face of the earth. To see all software fall under OSS. I find the current patent laws to be an obstruction to the advancement of technology. They were never written to cover free efforts. The concept of people working for free for the good of the community as a whole just never occured to the authors of the patent laws. As I said above we have to be realistic. If we want the world to eventually be that way we have to out and lead people to the water. Show them how to swim. They might come near the river but there is quite a bit of fear in the air and many people have had bad experiences with Linux because they could not find the best apps and wound up doing stupid things like attempting to burn a CD with something other than K3b. With K3b they have an interface and style that they are used too. One that's easy and reliable but there was nothing pointing them to how to do it. Ex-VB developers who might have never heard of Gambas and saw only C based languages and said "forget that!" or people terrified of command lines who could not find Yum GUI tools. Or who got trapped in dependancy hell on an RPM they downloaded. When I see a post/blog/comment by somebody or listen to somebody who tried Linux and didn't like it I try to find out why and most of the time it is purely because they were using old school and klunky apps when nice apps existed that they were completely unaware of.
By the same token we cannot tell people just because you have 50 gigs of MP3s but because some idiot corporation wanted to suddenly squeeze extra money out of people that they have to convert all those mp3s to OGGs. They are going to turn around and head right back to windoze. Hell I've been using Linux for years but only about a quarter of my collection is in the Ogg format. I rip to MP3 because that's what I trade with other people, many of them widnoze users. I despise Windoze media formats but I often have to open such files. Pretending they don't exist only makes us look backwards. Give them time and they'll discover the other formats. Eventually when a critical mass of people are using Linux then we can advance the Ogg format as a standard to supplant MP3s. We are not going to convert people by limiting what they can do with their machines. Linux means the opposite, it is freedom, even if it means supporting sometimes backwards standards like Microsoft formats.
Another lie that many people have bought from Microsoft is that being technically illiterate is ok. To me knowing nothing about computers is like not knowing how to change a tire. Sure you can get by like that but why? Learning a bit about computers I feel is essential. Unfortunately we have a whole generation of people who bought into that lie that we have to contend with. We can preach until we are blue in the face, but we are not going to convert many that way. Somebody who's seen a lake for the first time is going to have a much higher opinion of it when they willingly jump in rather than if they are thrown in. So lets let users adapt at a pace that suites them.
There is a learning curve no matter what we do but it can be made a
whole lot less steep with Jonathan's idea and the script I am proposing.
Again, I would urge you to step up and get involved beyond simply listing areas where you feel there are weaknesses. If you have time, we have a number of documents in draft form that are waiting for energetic folks to improve. Thanks for your time and consideration, and we look forward to hearing back from you.
Point me to them and I'd be glad to help as I am able. I'd also be quite happy to help.
--
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On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 15:00 -0500, Dan Smith wrote:
On 5/16/07, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote: Feel free to write that script, publish it, and support it on your own website. The Fedora Project and its contributors (including me, a non-Red Hat person) are passionately devoted to free and open source software, and we want our solutions to be supportable in the sense that the community has the power to take them apart and build on them at will without legal repercussions.
I understand your point of view but have to disagree with you.
[snip]
Linux means the opposite, it is freedom, even if it means supporting sometimes backwards standards like Microsoft formats.
You are not saying anything that hasn't been discussed to death on many, many Fedora mailing lists. Here is the bottom line:
1. Fedora does not ship encumbered stuff, nor do we commit infringement by pointing to be how to illegally do something;
2. Fedora folks are always looking for changes in the landscape that allow us to do something different, in a legal and safe way;
3. One reason we do this is to not bite our US-based friends, who are subject to things such as the DMCA;
4. A main reason we do this is because true software freedom is more important than illusory freedom;
5. Fedora Documentation works on free and open content that is related directly to the Fedora distribution of Linux; we only focus on what is "in Fedora."
So, if we could figure out a *legal and unencumbered* way to, for example, put up a Website that would upload, convert, and return audio files (mp32ogg.org), maybe that could help. Some idea like that.
What is not going to happen anytime soon, aiui, is a Fedora distributed wizard/client that sits on the desktop and helps people find the way to play their MP3 files. No matter how many impassioned arguments are made. The laws are the laws until they are changed or expire.
- Karsten
On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 01:34 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
What is not going to happen anytime soon, aiui, is a Fedora distributed wizard/client that sits on the desktop and helps people find the way to play their MP3 files. No matter how many impassioned arguments are made. The laws are the laws until they are changed or expire.
Ironically, this came out nearly totally wrong.
In fact, we are definitely doing just as I describe:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy
What I meant was that we are not going to create a client or tool or anything that permits illegal stuff, or points to how to do illegal stuff. The whole point of CodecBuddy is to provide legal solutions where they are available, and to at least explain when they are not available.
- Karsten
Playing MP3s, wma, wmv, flv files and such is not illegal. The reason I understand that it cannot be packaged in Fedora while it is standard in other distros is that if Fedora did so it would get Redhat sued for patent royalties. Redhat is not going to pay money to give people free software. It could not afford to do so, as such because Redhat is involved support for such media formats is not included in the official distro. It is easily availible and the unofficial FAQ as well as FAQs on places like Fedoragorums.org do point to where to download codecs, and set up your machine for various plugins and how to play various media.
I wish nobody used wmv files. I hate that format. Oggs are superior by far to Mp3s but people need to play those files to function. Obviously because of potential litigation they could not be included in the distro but a link to a website that did pertain to such files would be helpful and I suspect would not make Redhat liable for any patents as it is independently maintained.
I didn't suggest that Fedora include anything in the distro to set this up. Only a link to a website that would contain such information such as the unofficial FAQ. You could describe it as "Here you will find answers to some questions not answered in this documentation. This FAQ has no connection with the Fedora organization. Use at your own risk" and leave it at that.
Most of what I spoke of has nothing to do with propriatory formats. Automating the setup of NFS and SMB through firewalls for example. Or at least making the documentation easy to find and up to date. Configuring media players for free formats. How to burn a CD in Linux using popular software (especially K3b which will give them quite a few options and an interface close to windoze burners. I don't know many people that actually burn CDs through windoze explorer or on the Linux side through Nautilaus.) My ideas are geared toward new Linux users primarily and to a lessor extent to making some things easier to find for vet Linux users. Setting up a web site using LAMP is something that is commonly asked about for example. Using SSH instead of ftp. How to talk to windoze machines using SSH/SCP, things people do in other words.
Think about it. What was your first experience with Linux? Mine was after a week of hassles I finally got it installed and working. The biggest challenge was my CD was controlled by my sound card (a common configuration in the mid 90s.). I eventually got it all sorted out. X was not auto started yet. So here I was sitting at a brand new prompt. Don't think it was even a Bash shell thinking now what? While starting in X helps a great deal most new users have the same problem. They sit there with a nice blinking prompt saying now what? Many of Fedora's defaults are highly unfriendly to new Linux users. They don't want to go to extreme effort to burn a CD. Installing a burner app however is something they will be happy to do and automating the process of installing at least KDE libs and installing K3b would go a long way to solving that issue for new Linux users. The same script could download any extras needed to burn CDs from Nautiles. There is probably even a way to burn ISOs as images from Nautilis but not sure if that comes in default support. The documentation from this group on burning CDs never touches K3b. Never touches how to burn an ISO as a bootable CD. Doesn't cover any of the potential problems such as removing a CD if something goes wrong. Nor does it step them though how to get that software. In my opinion the VERY first thing a user should see is how to update their machine. Then how to add software using a Yum GUI. The default load is not really functional for most users. Far too much software is left out.
The welcome wizard could be interactive in many areas in this way. By letting them using just plain HTML download scripts to install software that is needed. By pointing them to Yum GUIs. Sorry command line YUM is not going to impress people. Even vets don't often use it because you almost have to know the exact version of what you are looking for. I use the command line to mass updates. The rest I do from Yum extender or Gnome Yum. We introduce new LInux users to installing software like that and they will LOVE Linux. No more downloading a zip file, extracting it, running and install program and hoping that later if they don't like it they can uninstall as is the Windoze experience in installing software. No more tarballs which often send new Linux users screaming into the night or dependancy hell all to common with rpms downloaded from sites. Yum takes care of the messy stuff and YUM GuIs make it organized and very easy to find and download software. Yet by default there is only the software updater which is good for getting Yum extender but not much else. Not sure if Gnome Yum is even availible through the updater.
I'm on a very different page from you guys apparently. The way I see it is the reason almost everybody who tries Linux and leaves Linux is because they simply don't know where to start and what software to use. A welcome wizards not going to have too much value to those of us that already know Linux because we already know what we like, what we want, how we want our machines set up. It is new users that would need this info and need it badly. So giving them choices, showing them screenshots of what various applications look like, links to detailed documentation if such exists would go a long way to making many peoples first Linux experience a good one. Being realistic but avoiding doing something that is could cause litigation is a fine line but a worthy effort.
Me I love Fedora as a distro. I hate the defaults. I would NEVER work for long on a system set up as a default Fedora install. No problem as Fedora makes it easy to build my system like I want it built. What they do not do is make it easy to learn how to do this. If all I knew was the software updater tool and used a default Fedora install I would feel like I was using half the machine a windoze box was. I would be constantly frustrated in how hard it was or unable to find how to do many things. I would be unaware that it was Fedora not Linux that did not support the use of certain file formats. File sharing would be damn near impossible to do securely. Can't count how many times I've seen users that made their home dir rwx to the world. Anyway my point is I want to see Fedora continue to be the top distro out there. I also want to see more people using Linux. I have my ways and many of them are not for the average user. Some are because I've done it this way or that way for years and for me it's just easier. For example setting up networking by editing the files. I would NEVER send a new Linux user into that mess. For me though it's just easier to do it that way than try to figure out where the networking was in the GUI, then find all the setting I want and battle Fedora defaults for things like net mask. So I try to think through a new Linux users eyes rather than mine when I try to help them get things set up the first time. Something I do very frequently and people I introduce to Linux who ask me questions have a very high retention rate. Very few go back to Windoze and many are full time Linux users in less than 2 years. That is because I point them to easy to use apps. Spend time teaching them how Linux works, show them the benefits and NEVER let them suffer through a default install. I am constantly frustrated when I try to introduce people to Linux and they give me these horror tales of trying to use default Linux installs (Mostly Fedora and Ubuntu lately, though a sprinkling of Mandriva and SUSE). How they couldn't do this or that. I'd of course be able to point them to an app that they'd like and every so often I'd get some to retry Linux and they'd have a much better experience. Many times they were so frustrated by their first effort they are now scared of Linux. They feel technically challenged. Those were people interested enough to try Linux but I feel like we slapped them in the face with our refusal to provide good help. Remember we are the underdog here. We need to help people get out from under MIcrosoft's thumb. Help them breath free for once. They are not going to endure much.
They know windoze. They may not be happy but a known evil with most people is always less scary than the unknown. So lets shed some light for them. Show them the EASY way to do things. Not the "right" way as defined by old school Nix. For exanple what is the most popular burner out there? K3b by far! So lets show them how to set it up and use it and point them to the K3b documentation for advanced functionality. Lets show them how to download and install flash player for common browsers. How to set up networking in baby steps so that even non-techies can set up their network. Setting up networking is actually easier in Linux than in windoze. If there are no legal repercussions we might even include snapshots of windoze networking configuration and the equivalent in Linux. Give them reference points. Compare software and give them choices and options to explore.
Documentation is not just how to, it is also the first thing a new user should encounter. Yet the current way of doing things a user has to seek it out. They are not going to explore endlessly. They want to Rock N Roll right out the door then explore to find more. So the welcome wizard is an awesome way to open the door to the documentation. Point them in different directions and increase the retention rate of new Linux users.
Anyway what's my ideas on the topic.
On 5/28/07, Karsten Wade kwade@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, 2007-05-24 at 01:34 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
What is not going to happen anytime soon, aiui, is a Fedora distributed wizard/client that sits on the desktop and helps people find the way to play their MP3 files. No matter how many impassioned arguments are made. The laws are the laws until they are changed or expire.
Ironically, this came out nearly totally wrong.
In fact, we are definitely doing just as I describe:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy
What I meant was that we are not going to create a client or tool or anything that permits illegal stuff, or points to how to do illegal stuff. The whole point of CodecBuddy is to provide legal solutions where they are available, and to at least explain when they are not available.
- Karsten
-- Karsten Wade, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 17:18 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 21:17 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote:
Hi all,
I don't know if this is off topic, or even just wishful thinking, but has any sort of a welcome wizard been considered?
GNU/Linux (and Fedora) is different to what a lot of new users will have been used to, and some sort of a welcome wizard which just points them in the right direction for common items, i.e. software installer etc might be useful.
I have no idea if other people think this would be worthwhile, or how you might go about creating it! Thoughts?
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is kicked off by the completion of firstboot?
In other words, a firstboot module. These can be fairly rich in content.
What about putting that into the welcome page for the browser, and auto-starting Firefox? Whatever that page looks or acts like, it could have a nicely visible "New Users Start Here" widget that kicks off what you are describing.
I think firstboot is a better place for this.
It sounds like a confluence of tool and content/media creation, so it is like an interactive tour.
It is likely someone else will gleefully advocate pointing to non-free solutions, so I'll just put in my zwei Pfennig (in an equally gleeful way) to say, "not in FDP space." :-)
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 17:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 17:18 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 21:17 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote:
Hi all,
I don't know if this is off topic, or even just wishful thinking, but has any sort of a welcome wizard been considered?
GNU/Linux (and Fedora) is different to what a lot of new users will have been used to, and some sort of a welcome wizard which just points them in the right direction for common items, i.e. software installer etc might be useful.
I have no idea if other people think this would be worthwhile, or how you might go about creating it! Thoughts?
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is kicked off by the completion of firstboot?
In other words, a firstboot module. These can be fairly rich in content.
Firstboot is NOT a good solution for this.
1) it runs outside a regular session, so the user cannot actually see what you explain to him
2) only the first user to start the machine after installation gets to see it
3) you cannot easily revisit it at a later time
What you want is a firstlogin that runs after the first login of every new user.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Matthias Clasen schreef:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 17:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 17:18 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 21:17 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote:
Hi all,
I don't know if this is off topic, or even just wishful thinking, but has any sort of a welcome wizard been considered?
GNU/Linux (and Fedora) is different to what a lot of new users will have been used to, and some sort of a welcome wizard which just points them in the right direction for common items, i.e. software installer etc might be useful.
I have no idea if other people think this would be worthwhile, or how you might go about creating it! Thoughts?
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is kicked off by the completion of firstboot?
In other words, a firstboot module. These can be fairly rich in content.
Firstboot is NOT a good solution for this.
- it runs outside a regular session, so the user cannot actually see
what you explain to him
only the first user to start the machine after installation gets to see it
you cannot easily revisit it at a later time
What you want is a firstlogin that runs after the first login of every new user.
Yeah, firstboot wouldn't scale enough, to let new users come to an existing system and learn about it.
So something like "About Fedora" turned into an interactive, "this is how you do foo, bar"-type of program? More like a small tour of the system, which ends with a list of links to the other guides we've got lying around here.
Could be doable with firefox as Karsten mentioned earlier.
Bart
- -- Bart couf@fedoraproject.org couf@skynet.be key fingerprint: 6AAB 544D 3432 D013 776D 3602 ADB6 6B2A D93F 0F93
Could be doable with firefox as Karsten mentioned earlier.
Do people think it's worthwhile though!? If so perhaps it could be something aimed for F8?
Best,
Jon
Bart
Bart couf@fedoraproject.org couf@skynet.be key fingerprint: 6AAB 544D 3432 D013 776D 3602 ADB6 6B2A D93F 0F93 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFGTBHTrbZrKtk/D5MRAi21AJ9N4nHjTl6gRT9tZjqnonX0hSHPOgCfSpYp FWHYXoGg3v3Fe6mGIlI4w18= =jNEA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 10:26 +0200, Bart Couvreur wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Matthias Clasen schreef:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 17:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 17:18 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 21:17 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote:
Hi all,
I don't know if this is off topic, or even just wishful thinking, but has any sort of a welcome wizard been considered?
GNU/Linux (and Fedora) is different to what a lot of new users will have been used to, and some sort of a welcome wizard which just points them in the right direction for common items, i.e. software installer etc might be useful.
I have no idea if other people think this would be worthwhile, or how you might go about creating it! Thoughts?
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is kicked off by the completion of firstboot?
In other words, a firstboot module. These can be fairly rich in content.
Firstboot is NOT a good solution for this.
- it runs outside a regular session, so the user cannot actually see
what you explain to him
only the first user to start the machine after installation gets to see it
you cannot easily revisit it at a later time
What you want is a firstlogin that runs after the first login of every new user.
Yeah, firstboot wouldn't scale enough, to let new users come to an existing system and learn about it.
So something like "About Fedora" turned into an interactive, "this is how you do foo, bar"-type of program? More like a small tour of the system, which ends with a list of links to the other guides we've got lying around here.
Could be doable with firefox as Karsten mentioned earlier.
Again, firefox is not a good place for this. Some users will never see it if they install epiphany or konqueror instead. I understand the problems with firstboot now, but this kind of function should be an independent program of some sort. Which means if anyone wants it, they will have to code it.
Take me off your mailing lists ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Paul W. Frields" stickster@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 10:26 +0200, Bart Couvreur wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Matthias Clasen schreef:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 17:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 17:18 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 21:17 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote:
Hi all,
I don't know if this is off topic, or even just wishful thinking, but has any sort of a welcome wizard been considered?
GNU/Linux (and Fedora) is different to what a lot of new users will have been used to, and some sort of a welcome wizard which just points them in the right direction for common items, i.e. software installer etc might be useful.
I have no idea if other people think this would be worthwhile, or how you might go about creating it! Thoughts?
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is kicked off by the completion of firstboot?
In other words, a firstboot module. These can be fairly rich in content.
Firstboot is NOT a good solution for this.
- it runs outside a regular session, so the user cannot actually see
what you explain to him
only the first user to start the machine after installation gets to see it
you cannot easily revisit it at a later time
What you want is a firstlogin that runs after the first login of every new user.
Yeah, firstboot wouldn't scale enough, to let new users come to an existing system and learn about it.
So something like "About Fedora" turned into an interactive, "this is how you do foo, bar"-type of program? More like a small tour of the system, which ends with a list of links to the other guides we've got lying around here.
Could be doable with firefox as Karsten mentioned earlier.
Again, firefox is not a good place for this. Some users will never see it if they install epiphany or konqueror instead. I understand the problems with firstboot now, but this kind of function should be an independent program of some sort. Which means if anyone wants it, they will have to code it.
Gregory Umukoro wrote:
Take me off your mailing lists
You subscribed on your own. You should be able to unsubscribe.
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
The instructions to do this are on the footer of every mail send to the lists.
Rahul
If we use the default browser and use clean HTML who cares what browser they install as long as at least one is installed and the window manager has some browser configured to handle HTML files. For the most part these will be new users who'll accept a default install anyway which will put Firefox (side note, why is 1.5 still the default for Firefox?) on the machine.
On 5/17/07, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 10:26 +0200, Bart Couvreur wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Matthias Clasen schreef:
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 17:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 17:18 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 21:17 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote:
Hi all,
I don't know if this is off topic, or even just wishful thinking,
but
has any sort of a welcome wizard been considered?
GNU/Linux (and Fedora) is different to what a lot of new users will have been used to, and some sort of a welcome wizard which just
points
them in the right direction for common items, i.e. software
installer
etc might be useful.
I have no idea if other people think this would be worthwhile, or
how
you might go about creating it! Thoughts?
You're thinking of a local/fat application? Something that is
kicked
off by the completion of firstboot?
In other words, a firstboot module. These can be fairly rich in content.
Firstboot is NOT a good solution for this.
- it runs outside a regular session, so the user cannot actually see
what you explain to him
only the first user to start the machine after installation gets to see it
you cannot easily revisit it at a later time
What you want is a firstlogin that runs after the first login of every new user.
Yeah, firstboot wouldn't scale enough, to let new users come to an existing system and learn about it.
So something like "About Fedora" turned into an interactive, "this is how you do foo, bar"-type of program? More like a small tour of the system, which ends with a list of links to the other guides we've got lying around here.
Could be doable with firefox as Karsten mentioned earlier.
Again, firefox is not a good place for this. Some users will never see it if they install epiphany or konqueror instead. I understand the problems with firstboot now, but this kind of function should be an independent program of some sort. Which means if anyone wants it, they will have to code it.
-- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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Gregory Umukoro -
Jonathan Roberts -
Karsten Wade -
Matthias Clasen -
Paul W. Frields -
Rahul Sundaram