Self-Introduction: Chris Savage

[Chris Savage]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to drop this in bullet-points or not, but
that feels weird.

My name is Chris Savage, most people just refer to me as Savage, I'm
(soon to be) living in Bradford in the UK and am a student at the
University of Bradford.

My goals? Well I really want to get involved in (and give something back
to) the community more than I am at present. I quite like writing
tutorials/HOWTOs as these help me remember (and learn) more as I go
along. I'm happy to edit for technical accuracy.

This will be my first community project, I've got a website over at
www.savagereactor.co.uk, and do volunteer work for a local charity.

Computing skills, I'm a general all rounder, but unqualified, I'm at an
average intermediate level with Linux, programming, servers, networking
etc. and more advanced with Windows. I've been using Fedora since just
before FC4.

Now I need to go read up on DocBook :)

Chris Savage


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[Karsten Wade]

On Wed, 2006-03-29 at 02:37 +0100, Chris Savage wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  I'm not sure if I'm supposed to drop this in bullet-points or not, but
>  that feels weird. 
Meh.  Let's fix that self-intro page so it doesn't feel onerous.  I like
your paragraph style, maybe that should be the New Way.

>  My name is Chris Savage, most people just refer to me as Savage,
> I'm
>  (soon to be) living in Bradford in the UK and am a student at the
>  University of Bradford.
>  
>  My goals? Well I really want to get involved in (and give something back
>  to) the community more than I am at present. I quite like writing
>  tutorials/HOWTOs as these help me remember (and learn) more as I go
>  along. I'm happy to edit for technical accuracy. 
Welcome then, this is definitely the place for you.  Obligatory first
question is, do you want:

A. Direction on where to start
B. Some guidance and some being left to your own devices
C. Answers whenever you ask questions

Also, as we're always trying to improve the contribution process *and*
know there are sticking points in that process, let us know what you
come across and help us fix it.

>  Now I need to go read up on DocBook :) 
Sure thing, but don't let that slow down your enthusiasm.  We do a ton
of work on the Wiki, you just need an account[1] and we can add you to
the EditGroup to get started.

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE *    Sr. Editor   * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject

Learn. Network. Experience open source.
Red Hat Summit Nashville  |  May 30 - June 2, 2006
Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/

[Chris Savage]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Karsten

>  Welcome then, this is definitely the place for you.  Obligatory
> first
>  question is, do you want:
>
>  A. Direction on where to start
>  B. Some guidance and some being left to your own devices
>  C. Answers whenever you ask questions 
All of the above would be good, I'm still new to the open-source
community way of life, I've been using Fedora for just under a year, and
have been helping out on fedoraforum.org and IRC, but thats about it.
I'm completely new to all of the processes involved in the project.

>  Also, as we're always trying to improve the contribution process
> *and*
>  know there are sticking points in that process, let us know what you
>  come across and help us fix it. 
I can't really speak for the contribution process as I have absolutely
zero experience of it. I will say that the registration process is
pretty long-winded and almost scared me off, it took me just over an
hour and a half to complete (setting up GPG etc). Thankfully some nice
folks on #fedora-social supported me through it :)

>  Sure thing, but don't let that slow down your enthusiasm.  We do
> a ton
>  of work on the Wiki, you just need an account[1] and we can add you to
>  the EditGroup to get started.
>
>  [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem 
I've already signed up for an account during the registration process
and returned the CLA which has been "completed successfully". Do you
need my username to add me to the EditGroup?

My first and possibly most important question is what kind of
documentation is required? I've written some Fedora tutorials [1]
although these don't follow the Fedora Doc Guidelines and are pretty
basic. They are based on topics like iptables, NFS etc. is that what is
required by Fedora-docs? or topics related specifically to Fedora?

I've also just finished writing a tutorial on Quotas [2], as I've just
set this up and had a rough time with it, I tried to follow the Fedora
Docs guidelines and would appreciate any feedback on the organization,
structure, writing technique etc.

[1] http://www.savagereactor.co.uk/?page=computing/fc/default.php
[2] http://www.savagereactor.co.uk/?page=computing/fc/quota.php

Chris Savage

p.s. I like that [1] URLs, I've not seen that done before, it makes
e-mails a lot tidier :P

Karsten Wade wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-03-29 at 02:37 +0100, Chris Savage wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I'm not sure if I'm supposed to drop this in bullet-points or not, but
>> that feels weird.
> 
> Meh.  Let's fix that self-intro page so it doesn't feel onerous.  I like
> your paragraph style, maybe that should be the New Way.
> 
>> My name is Chris Savage, most people just refer to me as Savage, I'm
>> (soon to be) living in Bradford in the UK and am a student at the
>> University of Bradford.
>>
>> My goals? Well I really want to get involved in (and give something back
>> to) the community more than I am at present. I quite like writing
>> tutorials/HOWTOs as these help me remember (and learn) more as I go
>> along. I'm happy to edit for technical accuracy.
> 
> Welcome then, this is definitely the place for you.  Obligatory first
> question is, do you want:
> 
> A. Direction on where to start
> B. Some guidance and some being left to your own devices
> C. Answers whenever you ask questions
> 
>  Also, as we're always trying to improve the contribution process
> *and*
>  know there are sticking points in that process, let us know what you
>  come across and help us fix it. 
> 
>> Now I need to go read up on DocBook :)
> 
> Sure thing, but don't let that slow down your enthusiasm.  We do a ton
> of work on the Wiki, you just need an account[1] and we can add you to
> the EditGroup to get started.
> 
> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem
> 
> - Karsten
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Edward Haddock]

Aloha Chris,
    Welcome to the Documentation Project. I am an inexperienced new
Linux user and recently joined myself. I agree that the sign up process
does seem to be quite daunting. It was especially difficult for me to
get Thunderbird setup correctly so I switched over to Evolution as it
was easier to setup GnuPG to work with it. I am doing an outline on the
whole process and am trying to come up with a way to streamline it. If
you have any ideas there please let me know. I would sincerely
appreciate them. That goes for everyone as well. Getting in the door to
help should not be as difficult as it seems to be now. 
Mahalo,
Edward
On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 03:55 +0100, Chris Savage wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Hi Karsten
>  
>  > Welcome then, this is definitely the place for you.  Obligatory first
>  > question is, do you want:
>  >
>  > A. Direction on where to start
>  > B. Some guidance and some being left to your own devices
>  > C. Answers whenever you ask questions
>  
>  All of the above would be good, I'm still new to the open-source
>  community way of life, I've been using Fedora for just under a year, and
>  have been helping out on fedoraforum.org and IRC, but thats about it.
>  I'm completely new to all of the processes involved in the project.
>  
>  > Also, as we're always trying to improve the contribution process *and*
>  > know there are sticking points in that process, let us know what you
>  > come across and help us fix it.
>  
>  I can't really speak for the contribution process as I have absolutely
>  zero experience of it. I will say that the registration process is
>  pretty long-winded and almost scared me off, it took me just over an
>  hour and a half to complete (setting up GPG etc). Thankfully some nice
>  folks on #fedora-social supported me through it :)
>  
>  > Sure thing, but don't let that slow down your enthusiasm.  We do a ton
>  > of work on the Wiki, you just need an account[1] and we can add you to
>  > the EditGroup to get started.
>  >
>  > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem
>  
>  I've already signed up for an account during the registration process
>  and returned the CLA which has been "completed successfully". Do you
>  need my username to add me to the EditGroup?
>  
>  My first and possibly most important question is what kind of
>  documentation is required? I've written some Fedora tutorials [1]
>  although these don't follow the Fedora Doc Guidelines and are pretty
>  basic. They are based on topics like iptables, NFS etc. is that what is
>  required by Fedora-docs? or topics related specifically to Fedora?
>  
>  I've also just finished writing a tutorial on Quotas [2], as I've just
>  set this up and had a rough time with it, I tried to follow the Fedora
>  Docs guidelines and would appreciate any feedback on the organization,
>  structure, writing technique etc.
>  
>  [1] http://www.savagereactor.co.uk/?page=computing/fc/default.php
>  [2] http://www.savagereactor.co.uk/?page=computing/fc/quota.php
>  
>  Chris Savage
>  
>  p.s. I like that [1] URLs, I've not seen that done before, it makes
>  e-mails a lot tidier :P
>  
>  Karsten Wade wrote:
>  > On Wed, 2006-03-29 at 02:37 +0100, Chris Savage wrote:
>  >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  >> Hash: SHA1
>  >>
>  >> I'm not sure if I'm supposed to drop this in bullet-points or not, but
>  >> that feels weird.
>  > 
>  > Meh.  Let's fix that self-intro page so it doesn't feel onerous.  I like
>  > your paragraph style, maybe that should be the New Way.
>  > 
>  >> My name is Chris Savage, most people just refer to me as Savage, I'm
>  >> (soon to be) living in Bradford in the UK and am a student at the
>  >> University of Bradford.
>  >>
>  >> My goals? Well I really want to get involved in (and give something back
>  >> to) the community more than I am at present. I quite like writing
>  >> tutorials/HOWTOs as these help me remember (and learn) more as I go
>  >> along. I'm happy to edit for technical accuracy.
>  > 
>  > Welcome then, this is definitely the place for you.  Obligatory first
>  > question is, do you want:
>  > 
>  > A. Direction on where to start
>  > B. Some guidance and some being left to your own devices
>  > C. Answers whenever you ask questions
>  > 
>  > Also, as we're always trying to improve the contribution process *and*
>  > know there are sticking points in that process, let us know what you
>  > come across and help us fix it.
>  > 
>  >> Now I need to go read up on DocBook :)
>  > 
>  > Sure thing, but don't let that slow down your enthusiasm.  We do a ton
>  > of work on the Wiki, you just need an account[1] and we can add you to
>  > the EditGroup to get started.
>  > 
>  > [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/AccountSystem
>  > 
>  > - Karsten
>  > 
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> >  Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> >  
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> >  pse7d11qbTxE4S9tajxFy0w=
> >  =pGZz
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>

[Tommy Reynolds]

Uttered Edward Haddock <edward.haddock(a)verizon.net&gt;, spake thus:

>  It was especially difficult for me to
>  get Thunderbird setup correctly so I switched over to Evolution as it
>  was easier to setup GnuPG to work with it.  
Edward, you may be working too hard ;-)

Why struggle with GPG for the emails?  What suggests that you need to
sign your emails with GPG?

AFAICT, the GPG is only used to grant CVS access privileges.

-- 
I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have
every intention of dying an abuse!

[Edward Haddock]

Tommy,
On the page, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters it
states that "1. You should have a GPG key, and are encouraged to use it
to sign your e-mails. This enables everyone to guarantee the
authenticity of the e-mails that are sent. A GPG key is also a
requirement for gaining access to the CVS system where documents are
maintained. See DocsProject/UsingGpg/CreatingKeys for help and
instructions if you don't already have a GPG key." so I set up GnuPG. I
am glad I did as it taught me something new about Fedora and I now use
it to sign my emails and use KGpg to manage them. :) Perhaps that is a
little much to just join the email list and correspond but it was a good
learning experience. Maybe we could streamline the join procedures for
the Documentation Project by taking that requirement out? Or maybe we
need more than just Writers and Editors? Any thoughts?
Mahalo,
Edward
On Thu, 2006-03-30 at 22:15 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote:
>  Uttered Edward Haddock <edward.haddock(a)verizon.net&gt;, spake
> thus:
>  
>  > It was especially difficult for me to
>  > get Thunderbird setup correctly so I switched over to Evolution as it
>  > was easier to setup GnuPG to work with it. 
>  
>  Edward, you may be working too hard ;-)
>  
>  Why struggle with GPG for the emails?  What suggests that you need to
>  sign your emails with GPG?
>  
>  AFAICT, the GPG is only used to grant CVS access privileges.
>  
>  -- 
>  fedora-docs-list mailing list
>  fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: 
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list

[Tommy Reynolds]

Uttered Edward Haddock <edward.haddock(a)verizon.net&gt;, spake thus:

>  On the page, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters it
>  states that "1. You should have a GPG key, and are encouraged to use it
>  to sign your e-mails. This enables everyone to guarantee the
>  authenticity of the e-mails that are sent. 
Edward,

Thanks for gently reminding me of this ;-)

-- 
I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have
every intention of dying an abuse!

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Karsten Wade]

On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 08:45 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote:
>  Uttered Edward Haddock <edward.haddock(a)verizon.net&gt;, spake
> thus:
>  
>  > On the page, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters it
>  > states that "1. You should have a GPG key, and are encouraged to use it
>  > to sign your e-mails. This enables everyone to guarantee the
>  > authenticity of the e-mails that are sent.
>  
>  Edward,
>  
>  Thanks for gently reminding me of this ;-) 
But it is noteworthy that signing emails is "encouraged", which is not
even a "recommendation" and certainly not a "requirement".

Edward -- when streamlining this, perhaps we could move that signing
email part to a footnote or something.  Or just make it a different part
of the NewWriters page, so we don't fool people into chasing down a
difficult path.

We definitely need the GPG key for the Fedora account, which causes you
to do the CLA, and grants Wiki, CVS, etc.

What would be nice, and I have no idea if it is feasible, is to have a
route to just-Wiki that is almost like a click-through CLA.  But is that
advisable?  Enforceable?  How do you prove that the person who agreed to
the CLA is anyone in particular?  It could have been a friend, "Just
click through this, you need that to get the EditGroup permissions."

Click-throughs are passive, people can do them without thought.  The
sign-the-CLA-with-GPG is active.

Hmm ...

Ideas?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, RHCE *    Sr. Editor   * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/
gpg fingerprint:  2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115    5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41   
Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject

Learn. Network. Experience open source.
Red Hat Summit Nashville  |  May 30 - June 2, 2006
Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Paul W. Frields]

On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 09:55 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote:
>  What would be nice, and I have no idea if it is feasible, is to have
> a
>  route to just-Wiki that is almost like a click-through CLA.  But is that
>  advisable?  Enforceable?  How do you prove that the person who agreed to
>  the CLA is anyone in particular?  It could have been a friend, "Just
>  click through this, you need that to get the EditGroup permissions." 
I think you may have answered your own question here.  If you want an
agreement to be legally binding and enforceable, you have to be able to
prove that both parties entered into it.

>  Click-throughs are passive, people can do them without thought.  The
>  sign-the-CLA-with-GPG is active. 
But I agree that GPG signing emails is just frills compared with the
CLA.  No reason people should go through that pain if they don't care.
I've been using PGP/GPG so long that I don't, but it's obviously a
significant barrier to some people, and since it's not necessary outside
the CLA, we should remove or demote it like you said.  My ~$0.02.

-- 
Paul W. Frields, RHCE                          http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Stuart Ellis]

On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 13:27 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: 
>  > Click-throughs are passive, people can do them without thought. 
> The
>  > sign-the-CLA-with-GPG is active.
>  
>  But I agree that GPG signing emails is just frills compared with the
>  CLA.  No reason people should go through that pain if they don't care.
>  I've been using PGP/GPG so long that I don't, but it's obviously a
>  significant barrier to some people, and since it's not necessary outside
>  the CLA, we should remove or demote it like you said.  My ~$0.02. 
FWIW, when I wrote that line I had a couple of things in mind: 

1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute,
and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one
setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support
as well, I believe.

2) Doing the Right Thing: without some kind of signature, an e-mail just
isn't trustworthy, even though most people do assume the "From:" field
can be trusted. Which is slightly worrying, and something that I have to
explain semi-regularly as people receive infected or phish mails. With a
project like this, where contributors often only interact through IRC
and e-mail, signed mail is particularly valuable IMO.

Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions
of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with
Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the
Fedora repositories for Enigmail.

-- 

Stuart Ellis

stuart(a)elsn.org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Tommy Reynolds]

Uttered Stuart Ellis <stuart(a)elsn.org&gt;, spake thus:

>  1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to
> contribute,
>  and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one
>  setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support
>  as well, I believe. 
Originally correct, but now out-dated.

To be involved with the I18N support, one needs only a computer.
WinDoze users can use either CYGWIN or native M$ tools to provide a
translation .PO file.

-- 
I'm already an anomaly, I shall soon be an anachronism, and I have
every intention of dying an abuse!

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Stuart Ellis]

On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 08:07 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote:
>  Uttered Stuart Ellis <stuart(a)elsn.org&gt;, spake thus:
>  
>  > 1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute,
>  > and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one
>  > setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support
>  > as well, I believe.
>  
>  Originally correct, but now out-dated.
>  
>  To be involved with the I18N support, one needs only a computer.
>  WinDoze users can use either CYGWIN or native M$ tools to provide a
>  translation .PO file. 
Good point.

FWIW, the Enigmail site has a fairly thorough tutorial on setting up
GnuPG on Windows, for those that way want to handle GPG-signed mail on
that OS:

http://enigmail.mozdev.org/gpgconf.html

I didn't add that link to the Wiki, since it's not at all
Fedora-specific.

-- 

Stuart Ellis

stuart(a)elsn.org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Paul W. Frields]

On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 11:29 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote:
>  On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 13:27 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: 
>  > > Click-throughs are passive, people can do them without thought.  The
>  > > sign-the-CLA-with-GPG is active.
>  > 
>  > But I agree that GPG signing emails is just frills compared with the
>  > CLA.  No reason people should go through that pain if they don't care.
>  > I've been using PGP/GPG so long that I don't, but it's obviously a
>  > significant barrier to some people, and since it's not necessary outside
>  > the CLA, we should remove or demote it like you said.  My ~$0.02.
>  
>  FWIW, when I wrote that line I had a couple of things in mind: 
>  
>  1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute,
>  and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one
>  setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support
>  as well, I believe. 
Yes, those are both low-drag apps as far as GPG goes.

>  2) Doing the Right Thing: without some kind of signature, an e-mail
> just
>  isn't trustworthy, even though most people do assume the "From:" field
>  can be trusted. Which is slightly worrying, and something that I have to
>  explain semi-regularly as people receive infected or phish mails. With a
>  project like this, where contributors often only interact through IRC
>  and e-mail, signed mail is particularly valuable IMO. 
Don't get me wrong, I prefer GPG, I just don't want it to be a sticking
point for new contributors.

>  Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the
> versions
>  of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with
>  Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the
>  Fedora repositories for Enigmail. 
I looked into this too and discovered the same thing.  I wonder why no
one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful?  Anyone interested in
doing so?

-- 
Paul W. Frields, RHCE                          http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Rahul Sundaram]

On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 10:36 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:

>  > Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that
> the versions
>  > of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with
>  > Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the
>  > Fedora repositories for Enigmail.
>  
>  I looked into this too and discovered the same thing.  I wonder why no
>  one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful?  Anyone interested in
>  doing so? 
Does it require repackaging in Fedora? Its is a trivially easy extension
to install. What we need is not packages but better documentation on
using GPG. write up a outline and post to the list and see if any of the
contributors listed
(http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors) would be
interested in writing the document. We really need to focus on getting
simple documents done better.

Rahul

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Paul W. Frields]

On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 21:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 10:36 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  
>  > > Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions
>  > > of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with
>  > > Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the
>  > > Fedora repositories for Enigmail.
>  > 
>  > I looked into this too and discovered the same thing.  I wonder why no
>  > one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful?  Anyone interested in
>  > doing so?
>  
>  Does it require repackaging in Fedora? Its is a trivially easy extension
>  to install. What we need is not packages but better documentation on
>  using GPG. write up a outline and post to the list and see if any of the
>  contributors listed
>  (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors) would be
>  interested in writing the document. We really need to focus on getting
>  simple documents done better. 
Does it *require* repackaging?  I'm not sure.  Look at the instructions
at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/WithThunderbird
and you tell me.  These have been up for some time.  I'd say being able
to use yum or pirut would be a big help here for beginners.

Somebody out there on this list has to be using Thunderbird.  Got a few
minutes to contribute?  Then try these instructions, AS WRITTEN, and let
us know if they're not working.  Better yet, edit the wiki page shown
here.  We'll see the results and handle any editing, so don't worry
about getting your spelling or grammar perfect.  Step right up folks!

-- 
Paul W. Frields, RHCE                          http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Stuart Ellis]

On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 13:45 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 21:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 10:36 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  > 
>  > > > Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the
> versions
>  > > > of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with
>  > > > Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in
> the
>  > > > Fedora repositories for Enigmail.
>  > > 
>  > > I looked into this too and discovered the same thing.  I wonder why no
>  > > one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful?  Anyone interested in
>  > > doing so?
>  > 
>  > Does it require repackaging in Fedora? Its is a trivially easy extension
>  > to install. What we need is not packages but better documentation on
>  > using GPG. write up a outline and post to the list and see if any of the
>  > contributors listed
>  > (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors) would be
>  > interested in writing the document. We really need to focus on getting
>  > simple documents done better.
>  
>  Does it *require* repackaging?  I'm not sure.  Look at the instructions
>  at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/WithThunderbird
>  and you tell me.  These have been up for some time.  I'd say being able
>  to use yum or pirut would be a big help here for beginners.
>  
>  Somebody out there on this list has to be using Thunderbird.  Got a few
>  minutes to contribute?  Then try these instructions, AS WRITTEN, and let
>  us know if they're not working.  Better yet, edit the wiki page shown
>  here.  We'll see the results and handle any editing, so don't worry
>  about getting your spelling or grammar perfect.  Step right up folks! 
I've been looking into this, and have replaced the content on that page
with instructions for FC5. They work for me, but I'm not a regular
Thunderbird user, so anybody who is should feel free to edit.

-- 

Stuart Ellis

stuart(a)elsn.org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Chris Savage]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am using Thunderbird, I installed Enigmail from the
Firefox/Thunderbird extensions site a while back, it installed without
problems, then recently, I followed the tutorial at:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/CreatingKeys

to create the keys, I choose OpenPGP > Sign Message the menu in
"Compose" it let me select key I'd just created and away it went.

I'm using TB 1.5 on FC5.

Chris Savage

Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 21:14 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 10:36 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >
> >>> Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions
> >>> of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with
> >>> Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the
> >>> Fedora repositories for Enigmail.
> >> I looked into this too and discovered the same thing.  I wonder why no
> >> one has packaged it, seeing as how it's so useful?  Anyone interested in
> >> doing so?
> > Does it require repackaging in Fedora? Its is a trivially easy extension
> > to install. What we need is not packages but better documentation on
> > using GPG. write up a outline and post to the list and see if any of the
> > contributors listed
> > (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Contributors) would be
> > interested in writing the document. We really need to focus on getting
> > simple documents done better.
>  
>  Does it *require* repackaging?  I'm not sure.  Look at the instructions
>  at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/UsingGpg/WithThunderbird
>  and you tell me.  These have been up for some time.  I'd say being able
>  to use yum or pirut would be a big help here for beginners.
>  
>  Somebody out there on this list has to be using Thunderbird.  Got a few
>  minutes to contribute?  Then try these instructions, AS WRITTEN, and let
>  us know if they're not working.  Better yet, edit the wiki page shown
>  here.  We'll see the results and handle any editing, so don't worry
>  about getting your spelling or grammar perfect.  Step right up folks!
>  
> >   
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFELxOHyswxNkg9GHcRAovTAJ9OyGtdVRwSHH+lmXVMeeenJCA5lQCeProJ
> nDm04wBTGXTw1FV9XUCBYAk=
> =rn4b
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Edward Haddock]

Aloha,
    I agree that signing emails is a good idea. In the doc I am writing
I have kept it in and am using the instructions on how to set it up from
the website. 
Mahalo,
Edward
On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 11:29 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote:
>  On Fri, 2006-03-31 at 13:27 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: 
>  > > Click-throughs are passive, people can do them without thought.  The
>  > > sign-the-CLA-with-GPG is active.
>  > 
>  > But I agree that GPG signing emails is just frills compared with the
>  > CLA.  No reason people should go through that pain if they don't care.
>  > I've been using PGP/GPG so long that I don't, but it's obviously a
>  > significant barrier to some people, and since it's not necessary outside
>  > the CLA, we should remove or demote it like you said.  My ~$0.02.
>  
>  FWIW, when I wrote that line I had a couple of things in mind: 
>  
>  1) Since in practice you need a GPG key and a Linux box to contribute,
>  and the default GNOME mail client (Evolution) enables GPG with one
>  setting, signed e-mail is almost free (I thought). Kmail has GPG support
>  as well, I believe.
>  
>  2) Doing the Right Thing: without some kind of signature, an e-mail just
>  isn't trustworthy, even though most people do assume the "From:" field
>  can be trusted. Which is slightly worrying, and something that I have to
>  explain semi-regularly as people receive infected or phish mails. With a
>  project like this, where contributors often only interact through IRC
>  and e-mail, signed mail is particularly valuable IMO.
>  
>  Of course I hadn't looked at Thunderbird... It appears that the versions
>  of Enigmail provided by the developer are often incompatible with
>  Thunderbird builds provided by Fedora, and there isn't a package in the
>  Fedora repositories for Enigmail.
>  
>  -- 
>  fedora-docs-list mailing list
>  fedora-docs-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: 
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Stuart Ellis]

On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 18:48 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote:
>  Aloha,
>      I agree that signing emails is a good idea. In the doc I am writing
>  I have kept it in and am using the instructions on how to set it up from
>  the website.  
OK, thanks. I don't think it would be reasonable for it to be mandatory,
but it's a good thing to do.

As mentioned on the previous mail, I've done instructions for
Thunderbird configuration. The Seahorse utility provides a graphical GPG
tool that integrates with GNOME, if you'd like to offer an alternative
to the command-line for users of that desktop.

BTW, it's common e-mail etiquette to post replies after the quoted mail,
and some people in UNIX circles can be quite sharp about "top-posting",
so watch out :).

-- 

Stuart Ellis

stuart(a)elsn.org

Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

GPG key ID: 7098ABEA
GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E  9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Paul W. Frields]

On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 10:33 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote:
>  On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 18:48 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote:
>  > Aloha,
>  >     I agree that signing emails is a good idea. In the doc I am writing
>  > I have kept it in and am using the instructions on how to set it up from
>  > the website. 
>  
>  OK, thanks. I don't think it would be reasonable for it to be mandatory,
>  but it's a good thing to do.
>  
>  As mentioned on the previous mail, I've done instructions for
>  Thunderbird configuration. The Seahorse utility provides a graphical GPG
>  tool that integrates with GNOME, if you'd like to offer an alternative
>  to the command-line for users of that desktop. 
I have Seahorse installed too, and it's very convenient, especially with
the Nautilus context menu "Encrypt/Decrypt File" functions it provides.

>  BTW, it's common e-mail etiquette to post replies after the
> quoted mail,
>  and some people in UNIX circles can be quite sharp about "top-posting",
>  so watch out :). 
We try not to slap any wrists around here, but sooner or later *someone*
was bound to say something. :-)  As you know, this is the "kindler,
gentler Fedora sub-project."

-- 
Paul W. Frields, RHCE                          http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Edward Haddock]

On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 11:01 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 10:33 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote:
>  > On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 18:48 -1000, Edward Haddock wrote:
>  > > Aloha,
>  > >     I agree that signing emails is a good idea. In the doc I am writing
>  > > I have kept it in and am using the instructions on how to set it up from
>  > > the website. 
>  > 
>  > OK, thanks. I don't think it would be reasonable for it to be mandatory,
>  > but it's a good thing to do.
>  > 
>  > As mentioned on the previous mail, I've done instructions for
>  > Thunderbird configuration. The Seahorse utility provides a graphical GPG
>  > tool that integrates with GNOME, if you'd like to offer an alternative
>  > to the command-line for users of that desktop.
>  
>  I have Seahorse installed too, and it's very convenient, especially with
>  the Nautilus context menu "Encrypt/Decrypt File" functions it provides.
>  
>  > BTW, it's common e-mail etiquette to post replies after the quoted mail,
>  > and some people in UNIX circles can be quite sharp about "top-posting",
>  > so watch out :).
>  
>  We try not to slap any wrists around here, but sooner or later *someone*
>  was bound to say something. :-)  As you know, this is the "kindler,
>  gentler Fedora sub-project." 
Aloha,
	I am very new to all of this and am thankful that you folks share with
me advice. I was not aware that bottom posting was the preferred way but
will do so from now on. ;)
	On a different note, I have not installed FC5 yet. I am waiting for the
nVidia stuff to get updated. I know there are ways around it but I want
it all to go smoothly. I also need to figure a way to move my /home to a
neutral location so I can recover all my files and such. As always this
is a learning experience for me but one I enjoy. I am trying to work a
way, in my head at the moment, of putting home on a separate partition
so that upgrading the OS will not affect things as much. Any advice
there would be also sincerely appreciated.
	As to the Documentation Guide I am working on I have an outline done
for the major steps I saw from the Wiki. Now that I have that down, I am
using the Wiki as a reference and rewriting the various steps. My goal,
if I can work it this way, is to have many smaller pages linked from the
main page. The main page will just be the steps and the links will be
for more detailed instructions so that it serves for advanced and new
users. I will be the first to say that I am not at all familiar with Doc
Book so everything I am doing at this time is in text. I will try to
learn Doc Book as I can. This is the outline so far:

1.) Subscribe to the fedora-docs-list, fedora-dsco-list and
fedora-announce-list
	a.) Visit the pages and fill in the needed information
	b.) An automated email message will be sent
	c.) Follow the link or respond to the email
2.) Ensure that the proper tool chain installed
	a.) Package Management
		I.) up2date
		II.) Yum
		III.) RPM
	b.) Privacy Guard Software and Management Utilities.
		I.) GnuPG
		II.) Seahorse
		III.) KGpg
	c.) Email
		I.) Evolution
		II.) Thunderbird
		III.) Kmail
		IV.) Pine
	d.) Editors
		1.) Vi
		II.) Emacs
		III.) OpenOffice.org Writer
	e.) Utilities
		I.) CVS
		II.) xmlto
		III.) Docbook files
3.) Generate a GPG key and setup your email client
	a.) Create a key Pair
	b.) Post public key at pgp.mit.edu
	c.) GPG key management utilities
		I.) KGPG
		II.) Seahorse
		III.) At the command line
	d.) Setup email client to work with GPG
		I.) Evolution
		II.) Thunderbird
		III.) Kmail
		IV.) Pine
4.) Create a Bugzilla account(Red Hat)
	a.) Fill out subscription page
	b.) Receive email
	c.) Respond to or follow link in email
	d.) Account done
5.) Create a Fedora Project Account (Not the same as a Bugzilla
Account.)
	a.) Apply for an account
		I.) Fill out Subscription page
		II.) Receive an email
		III.) Respond to or follow link in email
		IV.) Account setup.
	b.) Request and Complete a Contributor License Agreement(CLA)
		I.) Form the accounts page click to have it emailed to 	the account on
file.
		II.) Receive it and following the instructions in the email, fill it
out, sign it with your GPG key and return it.
		III.) Get confirmation email. Done.
	c.) Download and save the client-side certificate.
6.) Post a self-introduction to the fedora-docs-list
	a.) Subject
	b.) Body
	c.) Include Public GPG Key

	Feedback as always is welcomed. 
Mahalo,
Edward

Project barriers (was Re: Self-Introduction: Chris Savage)

[Rahul Sundaram]

>  sub-project."
>  Aloha,
>  	I am very new to all of this and am thankful that you folks share with
>  me advice. I was not aware that bottom posting was the preferred way but
>  will do so from now on. ;) 
Yes and quote only as much as necessary. 

>  	On a different note, I have not installed FC5 yet. I am waiting for
> the
>  nVidia stuff to get updated.  
The latest kernel update fixes this issue. 
>  
>  1.) Subscribe to the fedora-docs-list, fedora-dsco-list and
>  fedora-announce-list
>  	a.) Visit the pages and fill in the needed information
>  	b.) An automated email message will be sent
>  	c.) Follow the link or respond to the email
>  2.) Ensure that the proper tool chain installed
>  	a.) Package Management
>  		I.) up2date 
As far as Fedora is concerned, up2date is dead. 

>  		II.) Yum
>  		III.) RPM
>  	b.) Privacy Guard Software and Management Utilities.
>  		I.) GnuPG
>  		II.) Seahorse
>  		III.) KGpg
>  	c.) Email
>  		I.) Evolution
>  		II.) Thunderbird
>  		III.) Kmail
>  		IV.) Pine 
Pine is non-free software. We dont cover that. 

>  	d.) Editors
>  		1.) Vi
>  		II.) Emacs
>  		III.) OpenOffice.org Writer 

In general we need to define the audience better. If its the non
technical users, software that openoffice.org and Seahorse gets better
priority compared to GnuPG and Vi. Document default applications first.
Rest of the topic might need to be tuned depending on the content but
looks good at initial glance.


Rahul