Fwd: Live ISOs that don't fit on CDs

[Ruediger Landmann]

We're going to need to keep an eye on this issue -- if the F13 live 
image will no longer fit on a CD, we need to note it in the RN, plus 
other docs too (readme-live-image, readme-burning-isos, 
installation-quick-start-guide, at least)

Just a heads up...

Rudi


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Live ISOs that don't fit on CDs
Date: 	Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:33:10 -0500
From: 	Christopher Beland <beland(a)alum.mit.edu&gt;
Reply-To: 	For testers of Fedora development releases 
<test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
To: 	test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org



So in the process of triaging Bug 557958, I have found a user with an
interest in lobbying against the decision to allow Live ISOs that are
too large to burn to CD.  (They can't boot off USB or DVD, and I think
is experiencing a bug with their network install.)

I'm not questioning the decision, but as more people discover that
things are too big to burn onto CD, it would be helpful to have
someplace to point them.

After poking around a bit in mailing list archives, I couldn't find any
official announcement, nor did I find the reference which I think which
was on this mailing list where I first learned about this myself.  Does
anyone know which group made this decision, and if there's an official
reasoning?  (Or for that matter if there's still a chance that it might
be reversed.)

It might be helpful to update:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLiveCD

with some explanation, for example:

* The vast majority of users can boot off USB, if not DVD, and so are
not affected by the change.  The larger size better serves the majority
by providing the software that most people need in a Live distribution.
* Non-Live installation methods are still available on CD, including
network install from a minimal image, or offline install from multiple
CDs.
* Users that can only boot off CD but still need a Live distribution can
use Revisor and published kickstart files to slim down the official
spins to include only the software they actually need.

-B.

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[Eli]

That is written into the Documentation Live Beat on the wiki already.
But like you said will need to be added to the other docs. 

Eli 



On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 08:19 +1000, Ruediger Landmann wrote:
>  We're going to need to keep an eye on this issue -- if the F13
> live 
>  image will no longer fit on a CD, we need to note it in the RN, plus 
>  other docs too (readme-live-image, readme-burning-isos, 
>  installation-quick-start-guide, at least)
>  
>  Just a heads up...
>  
>  Rudi
>  
>  
>  -------- Original Message --------
>  Subject: 	Live ISOs that don't fit on CDs
>  Date: 	Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:33:10 -0500
>  From: 	Christopher Beland <beland(a)alum.mit.edu&gt;
>  Reply-To: 	For testers of Fedora development releases 
>  <test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  To: 	test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  
>  
>  
>  So in the process of triaging Bug 557958, I have found a user with an
>  interest in lobbying against the decision to allow Live ISOs that are
>  too large to burn to CD.  (They can't boot off USB or DVD, and I think
>  is experiencing a bug with their network install.)
>  
>  I'm not questioning the decision, but as more people discover that
>  things are too big to burn onto CD, it would be helpful to have
>  someplace to point them.
>  
>  After poking around a bit in mailing list archives, I couldn't find any
>  official announcement, nor did I find the reference which I think which
>  was on this mailing list where I first learned about this myself.  Does
>  anyone know which group made this decision, and if there's an official
>  reasoning?  (Or for that matter if there's still a chance that it might
>  be reversed.)
>  
>  It might be helpful to update:
>  
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLiveCD
>  
>  with some explanation, for example:
>  
>  * The vast majority of users can boot off USB, if not DVD, and so are
>  not affected by the change.  The larger size better serves the majority
>  by providing the software that most people need in a Live distribution.
>  * Non-Live installation methods are still available on CD, including
>  network install from a minimal image, or offline install from multiple
>  CDs.
>  * Users that can only boot off CD but still need a Live distribution can
>  use Revisor and published kickstart files to slim down the official
>  spins to include only the software they actually need.
>  
>  -B.
>  
>  -- 
>  test mailing list
>  test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe:
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
>

[Toshio Kuratomi]

I have a couple comments inside the forwarded message:

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 08:19:28AM +1000, Ruediger Landmann wrote:
>  We're going to need to keep an eye on this issue -- if the F13
> live 
>  image will no longer fit on a CD, we need to note it in the RN, plus 
>  other docs too (readme-live-image, readme-burning-isos, 
>  installation-quick-start-guide, at least)
>  
>  
>  -------- Original Message --------
>  Subject: 	Live ISOs that don't fit on CDs
>  Date: 	Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:33:10 -0500
>  From: 	Christopher Beland <beland(a)alum.mit.edu&gt;
>  Reply-To: 	For testers of Fedora development releases 
>  <test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org&gt;
>  To: 	test(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  
>  
>  
>  So in the process of triaging Bug 557958, I have found a user with an
>  interest in lobbying against the decision to allow Live ISOs that are
>  too large to burn to CD.  (They can't boot off USB or DVD, and I think
>  is experiencing a bug with their network install.)
>  
>  I'm not questioning the decision, but as more people discover that
>  things are too big to burn onto CD, it would be helpful to have
>  someplace to point them.
>  
>  After poking around a bit in mailing list archives, I couldn't find any
>  official announcement, nor did I find the reference which I think which
>  was on this mailing list where I first learned about this myself.  Does
>  anyone know which group made this decision, and if there's an official
>  reasoning?  (Or for that matter if there's still a chance that it might
>  be reversed.)
>   
AFAIK, it was only announced on the fedora-desktop list near the beginning
of the development cycle.  I could just not be remembering it being
announced in other places but other people weren't able to find reference
elsewhere either.

>  It might be helpful to update:
>  
>  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLiveCD
>  
>  with some explanation, for example:
>  
>  * The vast majority of users can boot off USB, if not DVD, and so are
>  not affected by the change.  The larger size better serves the majority
>  by providing the software that most people need in a Live distribution.
>  * Non-Live installation methods are still available on CD, including
>  network install from a minimal image, or offline install from multiple
>  CDs.
>  * Users that can only boot off CD but still need a Live distribution can
>  use Revisor and published kickstart files to slim down the official
>  spins to include only the software they actually need.
>   
I believe that only the Fedora Desktop Live media is now larger than a CD.
The Fedora KDE spin, for instance, still fits on a CD for F-13.  So getting
a different spin from spins.fedoraproject.org is another thing to document
(may be easier than making your own custom spin.)

-Toshio

[Valent Turkovic]

It is finally time to switch from CD to DVD? Blank media are almost
the same price and should be available world wide. Any reasons not to
switch from CD to DVD?

[John J. McDonough]

On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 19:07 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  It is finally time to switch from CD to DVD? Blank media are almost
>  the same price and should be available world wide. Any reasons not to
>  switch from CD to DVD? 
I think we have.  A little unfortunate, though.  Those machines that
don't have DVD drives are probably the very same machines that can't
boot from USB, so a lot of older boxes are left out in the cold.

On the other hand, DVD drives are pretty cheap these days, and as you
point out, the difference in media price is negligible.

--McD

[Valent Turkovic]

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:21 PM, John J. McDonough <wb8rcr(a)arrl.net&gt; wrote:
>  On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 19:07 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > It is finally time to switch from CD to DVD? Blank media are almost
> > the same price and should be available world wide. Any reasons not to
> > switch from CD to DVD?
>
>  I think we have.  A little unfortunate, though.  Those machines that
>  don't have DVD drives are probably the very same machines that can't
>  boot from USB, so a lot of older boxes are left out in the cold.
>
>  On the other hand, DVD drives are pretty cheap these days, and as you
>  point out, the difference in media price is negligible.
>
>  --McD 
It's harder and harder for Fedora to keep iso under 700MB, when will
be the time to drop CD iso? Or provide mini destop live CD and
expanded desktop dvd version?

-- 
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[Misha Shnurapet]

>  On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:21 PM, John J. McDonough
> <wb8rcr(a)arrl.net&gt; wrote:
>  > Развернуть
>  > On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 19:07 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>  > > Развернуть
>  > > It is finally time to switch from CD to DVD? Blank media are almost
>  > > the same price and should be available world wide. Any reasons not to
>  > > switch from CD to DVD?
>  > I think we have.  A little unfortunate, though.  Those machines that
>  > don't have DVD drives are probably the very same machines that can't
>  > boot from USB, so a lot of older boxes are left out in the cold.
>  > 
>  > On the other hand, DVD drives are pretty cheap these days, and as you
>  > point out, the difference in media price is negligible.
>  > 
>  > --McD
>  It's harder and harder for Fedora to keep iso under 700MB, when will
>  be the time to drop CD iso? Or provide mini destop live CD and
>  expanded desktop dvd version?
>   
http://fedoraproject.org/ru/get-fedora-all

Eh? :)

--
Best regards,
Misha Shnurapet

[Draciron Smith]

There are still tons of machines out there which do not have a DVD and
especially in third world countries where older hardware is the norm
the price of a DVD reader is going to be as much as the machine they
want to put it into.

Me personally I have several ancient machines who don't even have EIDE
support and finding a just plain IDE DVD reader would be nearly
impossible. About all they are good for is playing around with and
using as data/print servers but if you require a DVD to install they
become scrap metal.

Sides if your going to use a DVD what's the point of using a live CD?
Why not just get the full install? Seems kinda pointless.

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Valent Turkovic
<valent.turkovic(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  It is finally time to switch from CD to DVD? Blank media are almost
>  the same price and should be available world wide. Any reasons not to
>  switch from CD to DVD?
>  --
>  docs mailing list
>  docs(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe:
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/docs
>

[Paul W. Frields]

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 09:18:28AM -0600, Draciron Smith wrote:
>  There are still tons of machines out there which do not have a DVD
> and
>  especially in third world countries where older hardware is the norm
>  the price of a DVD reader is going to be as much as the machine they
>  want to put it into.
>  
>  Me personally I have several ancient machines who don't even have EIDE
>  support and finding a just plain IDE DVD reader would be nearly
>  impossible. About all they are good for is playing around with and
>  using as data/print servers but if you require a DVD to install they
>  become scrap metal.
>  
>  Sides if your going to use a DVD what's the point of using a live CD?
>  Why not just get the full install? Seems kinda pointless. 
There's still a netinst.iso that's far less than CD sized -- something
like 175 MB, I think -- that can be used for a network based
installation on a box with only CD capacity available.

-- 
Paul W. Frields                                http://paul.frields.org/
  gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
  http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
          Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com

[Ruediger Landmann]

On 03/16/2010 02:31 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>  On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 09:18:28AM -0600, Draciron Smith wrote:
>     
> > There are still tons of machines out there which do not have a DVD and
> > especially in third world countries where older hardware is the norm
> > the price of a DVD reader is going to be as much as the machine they
> > want to put it into.
> >
> > Me personally I have several ancient machines who don't even have EIDE
> > support and finding a just plain IDE DVD reader would be nearly
> > impossible. About all they are good for is playing around with and
> > using as data/print servers but if you require a DVD to install they
> > become scrap metal.
> >
> > Sides if your going to use a DVD what's the point of using a live CD?
> > Why not just get the full install? Seems kinda pointless.
> >      
>  There's still a netinst.iso that's far less than CD sized -- something
>  like 175 MB, I think -- that can be used for a network based
>  installation on a box with only CD capacity available 
True, but the people who are going to be bit hardest by needing a DVD 
reader (people in "developing nations", people living under various 
types of socio-economic disadvantage in "developed nations") are the 
same people who are unlikely to have access to cheap, reliable, 
high-speed Internet connections.

[Toshio Kuratomi]

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 09:18:28AM -0600, Draciron Smith wrote:
>  There are still tons of machines out there which do not have a DVD
> and
>  especially in third world countries where older hardware is the norm
>  the price of a DVD reader is going to be as much as the machine they
>  want to put it into.
>  
>  Me personally I have several ancient machines who don't even have EIDE
>  support and finding a just plain IDE DVD reader would be nearly
>  impossible. About all they are good for is playing around with and
>  using as data/print servers but if you require a DVD to install they
>  become scrap metal.
>  
>  Sides if your going to use a DVD what's the point of using a live CD?
>  Why not just get the full install? Seems kinda pointless.
>   
Could some of you that have use cases for livecd images send some answers to
duffy's questions on this ticket? https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/351

She's looking into how/whether CD sized images (from the alternate spins)
need to be presented on get.fedoraproject.org somehow.  To do that, she
needs to know what they're actually being used for.

Thanks,
-Toshio

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 02:56:16 -0400,
  Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > 
>  Could some of you that have use cases for livecd images send some answers to
>  duffy's questions on this ticket? https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/351
>  
>  She's looking into how/whether CD sized images (from the alternate spins)
>  need to be presented on get.fedoraproject.org somehow.  To do that, she
>  needs to know what they're actually being used for. 
That doesn't look like the correct ticket?