I know when I brought this up almost exactly a year ago*, people weren't convinced. With the recent site re-org, and planned merge of Ask Fedora, I I'm going to try again to convince you. :)
As I look back at the traffic here from the last year, 95% of it is introductions. I think those could certainly be in https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/c/fun/8 instead — either as individual posts in the #introductions tag, or added to the https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/introduce-yourself/1875/ mega-thread. Or, we could start a new one _specifically_ for Fedora Join.
There are also several "what can I do"? posts. It _might_ be useful to have a separate tag (or even Team Workflows category) for that... but as I understand the workflow, that's really supposed to be supported by the Pagure ticket process.
And then there's been just a few "here's an easy thing to get involved in" annoucement messages. Honestly, I think these mostly get drowned in the noise of introductions. I like the idea of a "push" of these ideas to potentially interested people, and theoretically that's where mailing lists shine, but I think probably if people's traffic from the list is mostly _other_ things, they're unlikely to find these.
I wonder if those announcements would be better served by a revamped "Easyfix" process — there was some conversation about that here: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/lets-talk-about-easyfix/32759.
There is also the #join tag (https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tag/join), which I intended to be for topics like this one, about the team and process itself. Ideally, all the formal members of the SIG (the sponsors https://accounts.fedoraproject.org/group/fedora-join/, right?) would set that tag as "Watching" so they get notifications.
Personally, I think this will be a lot easier for onboarding new people.
* https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/fedora-join@lists.fedoraprojec...
Hi,
For what it’s worth, I found Fedora Discussion *long* before this list, even as someone who has a fair bit of experience in mailing lists so I think this is a great idea.
I think it’s far more discoverable over there, and a lot easier to find and follow the flow of previous posts, which might cut down on some of the repetitiveness of a list like this.
Just my two cents.
Best wishes to all, Alex
On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 20:40, Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I know when I brought this up almost exactly a year ago*, people weren't convinced. With the recent site re-org, and planned merge of Ask Fedora, I I'm going to try again to convince you. :)
As I look back at the traffic here from the last year, 95% of it is introductions. I think those could certainly be in https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/c/fun/8 instead — either as individual posts in the #introductions tag, or added to the https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/introduce-yourself/1875/ mega-thread. Or, we could start a new one _specifically_ for Fedora Join.
There are also several "what can I do"? posts. It _might_ be useful to have a separate tag (or even Team Workflows category) for that... but as I understand the workflow, that's really supposed to be supported by the Pagure ticket process.
And then there's been just a few "here's an easy thing to get involved in" annoucement messages. Honestly, I think these mostly get drowned in the noise of introductions. I like the idea of a "push" of these ideas to potentially interested people, and theoretically that's where mailing lists shine, but I think probably if people's traffic from the list is mostly _other_ things, they're unlikely to find these.
I wonder if those announcements would be better served by a revamped "Easyfix" process — there was some conversation about that here: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/lets-talk-about-easyfix/32759.
There is also the #join tag (https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tag/join), which I intended to be for topics like this one, about the team and process itself. Ideally, all the formal members of the SIG (the sponsors https://accounts.fedoraproject.org/group/fedora-join/, right?) would set that tag as "Watching" so they get notifications.
Personally, I think this will be a lot easier for onboarding new people.
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ fedora-join mailing list -- fedora-join@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to fedora-join-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/fedora-join@lists.fedoraprojec... Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On Sun, 2022-01-02 at 15:40 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
I know when I brought this up almost exactly a year ago*, people weren't convinced. With the recent site re-org, and planned merge of Ask Fedora, I I'm going to try again to convince you. :)
I'm still hesitant about the point of the "safe zone" that is this mailing list, compared to a forum. On the other hand I fear that an introduction sent to this mailing list is like a flyer attached behind the door instead of on the notice board. I mean, many community members will never read it.
Another point never solved is the involvement of other community/team members in the join/onboarding process that are not hanghing in this mailing list, or other Join SIG communication channels. The Join SIG maybe need help from other teams members. We are doing our best, and well, but more expertise in some specific facets of the project could be useful.
Maybe an introduction sent to discussion.f.o. has better visibility. All in all the mission of the Join workflow is: "Not the tasks, not the processes, the people. [...] So, we had a thought. Why not help Jen become part of the community - get to know the people - first? [...] Fedora is about hanging out with friends". Well, what a better place than a forum?
About the other purposes of this mailing list, well, Join SIG specific tasks and discussions are held on pagure tickets or on some chat.
And announcements for newcomers, easy tasks, well, again, discussion.f.o. could be a better channel.
So... I'm inclined to foster your proposal.
Ciao, A.
My 2 cents. What happens. Whenever there is actually an email that gets recieved people like me do read them. As it gives concise information. But when it comes to forums. Many a times the notifications dont get sent. It also doesn't create the necessary invite for the busy people to get involved in the discussions.
Regards, Dilip Khanolkar, +91 9833018122
On Mon, 3 Jan, 2022, 3:21 am Alessio, alciregi@posteo.net wrote:
On Sun, 2022-01-02 at 15:40 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
I know when I brought this up almost exactly a year ago*, people weren't convinced. With the recent site re-org, and planned merge of Ask Fedora, I I'm going to try again to convince you. :)
I'm still hesitant about the point of the "safe zone" that is this mailing list, compared to a forum. On the other hand I fear that an introduction sent to this mailing list is like a flyer attached behind the door instead of on the notice board. I mean, many community members will never read it.
Another point never solved is the involvement of other community/team members in the join/onboarding process that are not hanghing in this mailing list, or other Join SIG communication channels. The Join SIG maybe need help from other teams members. We are doing our best, and well, but more expertise in some specific facets of the project could be useful.
Maybe an introduction sent to discussion.f.o. has better visibility. All in all the mission of the Join workflow is: "Not the tasks, not the processes, the people. [...] So, we had a thought. Why not help Jen become part of the community - get to know the people - first? [...] Fedora is about hanging out with friends". Well, what a better place than a forum?
About the other purposes of this mailing list, well, Join SIG specific tasks and discussions are held on pagure tickets or on some chat.
And announcements for newcomers, easy tasks, well, again, discussion.f.o. could be a better channel.
So... I'm inclined to foster your proposal.
Ciao, A.
fedora-join mailing list -- fedora-join@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to fedora-join-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/fedora-join@lists.fedoraprojec... Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On Mon, Jan 03, 2022 at 09:23:29AM +0530, beta tester wrote:
My 2 cents. What happens. Whenever there is actually an email that gets recieved people like me do read them. As it gives concise information. But when it comes to forums. Many a times the notifications dont get sent. It also doesn't create the necessary invite for the busy people to get involved in the discussions.
For Fedora Discussion, you can configure notifications so you always get an email for each one. See https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/guide-to-interacting-with-this-site-b... if that's what you prefer.
As I look back at the traffic here from the last year, 95% of it is introductions. I think those could certainly be in https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/c/fun/8 instead — either as individual posts in the #introductions tag, or added to the https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/introduce-yourself/1875/ mega-thread. Or, we could start a new one _specifically_ for Fedora Join.
+1 I'm in with your IDEA but some advice here:
we could start a new one _specifically_ for Fedora Join, has the same time for just say hey HELLO I'm here and I do this/that, is quite diferent to hey HELLO I would like to contribbute and I would like to be mentor in the community with the fedora newcomers workflow.
Regards.,
On Mon, Jan 03, 2022 12:55:20 -0000, Héctor H. Louzao P. wrote:
As I look back at the traffic here from the last year, 95% of it is introductions. I think those could certainly be in https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/c/fun/8 instead — either as individual posts in the #introductions tag, or added to the https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/introduce-yourself/1875/ mega-thread. Or, we could start a new one _specifically_ for Fedora Join.
+1 I'm in with your IDEA but some advice here:
we could start a new one _specifically_ for Fedora Join, has the same time for just say hey HELLO I'm here and I do this/that, is quite diferent to hey HELLO I would like to contribbute and I would like to be mentor in the community with the fedora newcomers workflow.
I was considering if we really need newcomers to send introductions as part of the welcome to Fedora process to a specific mailing list or forum at all. Folks can just do it on the ticket (most already do), and then once they find where in Fedora they want to start, we usually ask them to introduce themselves on the specific communication channel.
The current template was already modified to say this, and can be further tweaked to say "a list" instead of "the list" etc.:
"Next, when you're ready, could you please introduce yourself (preferably on the list) so that the community can get to know you? (interests, skills, anything you wish to say about yourself really)"
I continue to worry about moving the Fedora Join channel to Discourse because of the lack of separation between the communication channels for different teams there. The whole point of having a separate one for Fedora Join is to keep it isolated and away from the confusing jumble that is the Fedora community. Having a different category or tag just doesn't cut it. All the content there will still spook newcomers.
So my worry is that by moving this to Discourse, we become another channel in the jumble there and no longer function as a protected area for newcomers. :/
On Mon, Jan 03, 2022 at 02:32:57PM +0000, Ankur Sinha wrote:
I was considering if we really need newcomers to send introductions as part of the welcome to Fedora process to a specific mailing list or forum at all. Folks can just do it on the ticket (most already do), and then once they find where in Fedora they want to start, we usually ask them to introduce themselves on the specific communication channel.
The current template was already modified to say this, and can be further tweaked to say "a list" instead of "the list" etc.:
"Next, when you're ready, could you please introduce yourself (preferably on the list) so that the community can get to know you? (interests, skills, anything you wish to say about yourself really)"
Can we make this be "on the team's mailing list or on Fedora Discussion with the team's tag", with the latter linked to
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/new-topic?category=project&tags=int...
I continue to worry about moving the Fedora Join channel to Discourse because of the lack of separation between the communication channels for different teams there. The whole point of having a separate one for Fedora Join is to keep it isolated and away from the confusing jumble that is the Fedora community. Having a different category or tag just doesn't cut it. All the content there will still spook newcomers.
Well, let me back up a bit then. What is the list for, and who is it for? We just covered that it shouldn't be for introductions (although like I said, that's mostly what it seems to be). To me, that leaves three possibilities:
* Team discussion about the team's process, work, etc. I think this mostly happens in the chat channel, really? But, like, this thread. :)
For this, I think https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tags/c/project/7/join would really be ideal. (We could even configure the Matrix integration to send new topics to that chat room.)
* Announcements of opportunities — this is a whole big topic, but I guess the main thing is I don't see that happening very much here, and also I think it's something wider than just for newcomers. I'm not saying that's not right, just I'm not sure that this is doing it (and I think we actually can do that on Discourse if we want).
That leaves this:
So my worry is that by moving this to Discourse, we become another channel in the jumble there and no longer function as a protected area for newcomers. :/
... which I will take only mock offense at — I've been working hard to make it NOT a jumble! But I do take your point. There's a lot going on. I think it's probably true that a tag isn't enough isolation, but I'm not sure why a category set up to be separate couldn't provide that. But I am a little bit unsure on the _what_ for this — how would that area (or this list even) be different from those welcome-workflow tickets?
On Mon, Jan 03, 2022 15:04:23 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Mon, Jan 03, 2022 at 02:32:57PM +0000, Ankur Sinha wrote:
I was considering if we really need newcomers to send introductions as part of the welcome to Fedora process to a specific mailing list or forum at all. Folks can just do it on the ticket (most already do), and then once they find where in Fedora they want to start, we usually ask them to introduce themselves on the specific communication channel.
The current template was already modified to say this, and can be further tweaked to say "a list" instead of "the list" etc.:
"Next, when you're ready, could you please introduce yourself (preferably on the list) so that the community can get to know you? (interests, skills, anything you wish to say about yourself really)"
Can we make this be "on the team's mailing list or on Fedora Discussion with the team's tag", with the latter linked to
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/new-topic?category=project&tags=int...
Yeh, something of the lines of "when you're ready, go ahead and introduce yourself to the team". The links we provide in the ticket should have information on where each team can be found.
The introduction task was added there to familiarise folks with the mailing lists, just as the pagure ticket is also intended to familiarise folks with a ticketing workflow.
I continue to worry about moving the Fedora Join channel to Discourse because of the lack of separation between the communication channels for different teams there. The whole point of having a separate one for Fedora Join is to keep it isolated and away from the confusing jumble that is the Fedora community. Having a different category or tag just doesn't cut it. All the content there will still spook newcomers.
Well, let me back up a bit then. What is the list for, and who is it for? We just covered that it shouldn't be for introductions (although like I said, that's mostly what it seems to be). To me, that leaves three possibilities:
Team discussion about the team's process, work, etc. I think this mostly happens in the chat channel, really? But, like, this thread. :)
For this, I think https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tags/c/project/7/join would really be ideal. (We could even configure the Matrix integration to send new topics to that chat room.)
+1, a place there for our team discussion would work well.
- Announcements of opportunities — this is a whole big topic, but I guess the main thing is I don't see that happening very much here, and also I think it's something wider than just for newcomers. I'm not saying that's not right, just I'm not sure that this is doing it (and I think we actually can do that on Discourse if we want).
I think the idea for this one is that tasks sent here are hand-picked for being ones that newcomers can start their Fedora contributions with, (but it isn't yet automated and there's a whole discussion about Easyfix on discussion.fp.o too.)
That leaves this:
So my worry is that by moving this to Discourse, we become another channel in the jumble there and no longer function as a protected area for newcomers. :/
... which I will take only mock offense at — I've been working hard to make it NOT a jumble! But I do take your point. There's a lot going on. I think it's probably true that a tag isn't enough isolation, but I'm not sure why a category set up to be separate couldn't provide that. But I am a little bit unsure on the _what_ for this — how would that area (or this list even) be different from those welcome-workflow tickets?
The list is just an asynchronous counterpart to the Telegram/Matrix channel because the channels are not/cannot be always monitored. Anything that happens on the channels can happen here. That includes the cases you've covered but with an important addition---it is a dedicated space for newcomers to ask *whatever they wish*. But, it is not like any other community team channel---it is a protected space. "Newcomer? Not feeling confident enough to post to the team's channel? No problem! Post here! We're here specifically to answer your questions!" (Even if people are not using it for this purpose much, we do need to have it in place.)
I don't think Discourse lets us keep this communication channel isolated/protected in the same way. For one, irrespective of whether it is a category or a tag, a user sees posts from *all* of Discourse on their landing page on discussion.fp.o. Even if we send folks to a category/tag, it's really easy to navigate away to other parts of the universe there. So, the excellent navigation features of Discourse are a good thing for users that want to keep up with multiple tags/categories, but not necessarily for newcomers who may find the large amount of info it exposes them to confusing/overwhelming to begin with.
A dedicated limited/filtered "view" that limits newcomers to our tag/category only would be ideal, but I'm not aware of a way that this can be done (without affecting other users and so on).
Neither the list nor the channel are replacements for the "Welcome to Fedora" ticket system. That needs to stay separate because that's the main and only door that we want to funnel people to, and they'll find out about the rest of the community through that process.
PS: one of my few issues with Discourse for multi project/team discussion is that it isn't opt-in in the same way as mailing lists are. Even before I decide to "watch" some and "mute" other things, I'm already seeing everything. I still need to "watch" (subscribe) bits as I do in mailing lists, and additionally, now I also need to spend time on "muting" (unsubscribing) others. I wonder if there is a way of somehow starting with everything muted (a clean slate!) so that I can then unmute/watch only bits I am interested in.
On Mon, Jan 03, 2022 at 10:21:38PM +0000, Ankur Sinha wrote:
The introduction task was added there to familiarise folks with the mailing lists, just as the pagure ticket is also intended to familiarise folks with a ticketing workflow.
Okay, that makes sense. I'll wear my agenda on my sleeve here: I'd like to get away from mailing lists being a requirement for Fedora participation. I know devel list is still the center of the universe, so it's gotta be in there, but... when is the last time _any_ of us saw an interesting open source project and thought "yes, another mailing list to sign up for!"?
My kids don't even check their email unless I tell them to. It's like the equivalent of going down the rural lane to a mail-box two miles from the farmhouse or something. :)
would really be ideal. (We could even configure the Matrix integration to send new topics to that chat room.)
+1, a place there for our team discussion would work well.
So that's there and waiting :)
The list is just an asynchronous counterpart to the Telegram/Matrix channel because the channels are not/cannot be always monitored.
Right. I, for one, am a big fan of this. So much easier to interact at one's own life pace.
Anything that happens on the channels can happen here. That includes the cases you've covered but with an important addition---it is a dedicated space for newcomers to ask *whatever they wish*. But, it is not like any other community team channel---it is a protected space. "Newcomer? Not feeling confident enough to post to the team's channel? No problem! Post here! We're here specifically to answer your questions!" (Even if people are not using it for this purpose much, we do need to have it in place.)
I don't think Discourse lets us keep this communication channel isolated/protected in the same way. For one, irrespective of whether it is a category or a tag, a user sees posts from *all* of Discourse on their landing page on discussion.fp.o. Even if we send folks to a category/tag, it's really easy to navigate away to other parts of the universe there. So, the excellent navigation features of Discourse are a good thing for users that want to keep up with multiple tags/categories, but not necessarily for newcomers who may find the large amount of info it exposes them to confusing/overwhelming to begin with.
I'm pretty confident we could theme a category to feel a more protected in that way.
A dedicated limited/filtered "view" that limits newcomers to our tag/category only would be ideal, but I'm not aware of a way that this can be done (without affecting other users and so on).
Wait, I want to take this to Discussion because I want to include a screenshot. ... Please follow me to https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/creating-a-space-for-new-users-for-fe... to continue :)
I do agree with and understand the following part which I'm leaving here, though:
Neither the list nor the channel are replacements for the "Welcome to Fedora" ticket system. That needs to stay separate because that's the main and only door that we want to funnel people to, and they'll find out about the rest of the community through that process.
On Tue, 2022-01-04 at 09:45 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
My kids don't even check their email unless I tell them to. It's like the equivalent of going down the rural lane to a mail-box two miles from the farmhouse or something. :)
Oh well, I think we should avoid an email vs something else war :-D My daughters don't even use a browser nowadays :-D (With all these tiktok, youtube and apps, but they are not interested in computers and information technology).
+1, a place there for our team discussion would work well.
Team discussion as far as I can see doesn't happen on the mailing list. We usually use tickets also for this, isn't it?
And sorry, I lost the point: apart introductions, what should be the purpose of a join tag on discussion.f.o. if we are not replacing the "Welcome to Fedora" ticket system? (That could also be an idea, eh).
A.
On Tue, Jan 04, 2022 at 08:58:38PM +0000, Alessio wrote:
Oh well, I think we should avoid an email vs something else war :-D My daughters don't even use a browser nowadays :-D (With all these tiktok, youtube and apps, but they are not interested in computers and information technology).
Alright, fair. :)
+1, a place there for our team discussion would work well.
Team discussion as far as I can see doesn't happen on the mailing list. We usually use tickets also for this, isn't it?
We can, but it's honestly something else I'm worried about. With each team using their separate tracker — sometimes Pagure, sometimes something somewhere else — it's hard for people outside of those teams to get a feel for what's going on.
And sorry, I lost the point: apart introductions, what should be the purpose of a join tag on discussion.f.o. if we are not replacing the "Welcome to Fedora" ticket system? (That could also be an idea, eh).
I'd like to replace this mailing list, and the step asking new users to sign up for it. (And this might mean several different ideas for what the list is for are in the future served by different things, not just that team tag.)
On Mon, 2022-01-10 at 14:11 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
+1, a place there for our team discussion would work well.
Team discussion as far as I can see doesn't happen on the mailing list. We usually use tickets also for this, isn't it?
We can, but it's honestly something else I'm worried about. With each team
I mean. Even now, for team discussions, ideas and so on, we use everything except this mailing list.
I'd like to replace this mailing list, and the step asking new users to sign up for it. (And this might mean several different ideas for what the list is for are in the future served by different things, not just that team tag.)
Well, we could maintain the mailing list and use it as an exercise for newcomers :-D I agree that nowadays mailing lists are a communication system used by old school bearded developers :-D But in your journey you will always encounter one (one mailing list, mmh maybe also a bearded developer). So it could be like a playground for people who have never seen one. (But for me, if there is a consensus, we can stop using this mailing list altogether).
A.
On 10/01/2022 20:47, Alessio wrote:
On Mon, 2022-01-10 at 14:11 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
I'd like to replace this mailing list, and the step asking new users to sign up for it. (And this might mean several different ideas for what the list is for are in the future served by different things, not just that team tag.)
Well, we could maintain the mailing list and use it as an exercise for newcomers :-D I agree that nowadays mailing lists are a communication system used by old school bearded developers :-D But in your journey you will always encounter one (one mailing list, mmh maybe also a bearded developer). So it could be like a playground for people who have never seen one. (But for me, if there is a consensus, we can stop using this mailing list altogether).
My humble two cents: I am an old bearded non-developer; I am aware of many non-bearded users of mailing lists.
my main point is however: having been on this list for +/- 2 weeks, I enjoy it as a way to getting a sense of people in the community. But, of course, that can also happen via introductions on discourse.
Of course, in terms of use logics, it is quite hidden (it took me years to stumble upon this welcome/intro space). I have no idea, whether ask/discussion platforms could be employed to automatically invite new users there to introduce themselves. I note that discourse seems to recognise new users as such.
i
Well. What is the outcome of this proposal? It seems that there is not a firm consensus.
- Can we try to direct new people to discussion.f.o. for their introductions and see how it goes? - We could also leave this list active (if there aren't other reasons to shutdown it) in order to allow people to perform propaedeutical activities with a mailing list. IMHO sooner or later, you will encounter a mailing list in your FOSS journey :-D - It is a fact that this mailing list is not used for team's management and discussions, well, apart this thread :-) And it is also a fact that this list is not used for announcements or to suggest easy tasks. And a #join tag is already active on discourse.
Then?
A.
fedora-join@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Alessio -
Alex Haydock -
Ankur Sinha -
beta tester -
Héctor H. Louzao P. -
Ingmar Lippert -
Matthew Miller