[Bug 1005780] New: Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

Bug ID: 1005780
           Summary: Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification
                    needed for "l" Character
           Product: Fedora
           Version: 19
         Component: liberation-fonts
          Severity: low
          Assignee: [e-mail]
          Reporter: [e-mail]
        QA Contact: [e-mail]
                CC: [e-mail],
                    [e-mail],
                    [e-mail], [e-mail]

Description of problem: 
Lowercase "l" character very closely resembles the "1" character from many
other typefaces, especially at smaller point sizes, and even more so in the
italic style.

Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable): 
2.00.1

How reproducible:
Type an italic "l" at 8 point size. Print alongside "1" also at 8 point size
from some other monospaced fonts, such as DejaVu Sans Mono and notice the
similarity.

Additional info:
I have found Liberation Mono to be the best Free typeface for my coding
purposes. I particularly love how readable yet compact it is at small sizes.
I've had difficultly though with the "l" character. I find that this character
seems to me to be indistinguishable from the "1" character from many other
typefaces. The problem is even more apparent when the font is used in the
italic style. To my perception, an "l" formed more similar to that of the
DejaVu Sans Mono, Source Code Pro, or Ubuntu Mono would fit better with the
overall design approach of the typeface by being clearly readable at all
sizes--it could no longer be confused with any other character. This would
include a leftward serif at the top of the letter, and a rightward curvature at
the bottom of the character. To my eye, DejaVu Sans Mono's "l" would be the
best model.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #1 from Pravin Satpute  ---
Created attachment 796295
  --> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=796295&action=edit
screenshot of comparison between dejavu mono and liberation mono l character

Thanks for appreciation for Liberation. After looking at the attached
screenshot i am agree with you for confusion at lower size between 1 and l.

Looks like Dejavu has taken extra care while designing l shape. I will try for
that in next version.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #2 from [e-mail] ---
(In reply to Pravin Satpute from comment #1)
> Created attachment 796295 [details]
> screenshot of comparison between dejavu mono and liberation mono l character
>
> Thanks for appreciation for Liberation. After looking at the attached
> screenshot i am agree with you for confusion at lower size between 1 and l.
>
> Looks like Dejavu has taken extra care while designing l shape. I will try
> for that in next version.

Thank you so much! I look forward to seeing it.

Is there a schedule for the next release?

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

Lijun Li  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
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           Keywords|                            |i18n
                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

Pravin Satpute  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
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             Status|NEW                         |ASSIGNED

--- Comment #3 from Pravin Satpute  ---
I will do this it by this month end.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #4 from Pravin Satpute  ---
We can definitely fix this but i am more concerned regarding if we update shape
we will lose the bytecode hinting instruction for this shape.

Though i can instruct fontforge for autohinting this but still it does not give
100% accurate behaviour.

So may be we can try this out but if some bugs came up, we can simply restore
original shape or try to fix hinting instructions.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #5 from Pravin Satpute  ---
Created attachment 831954
  --> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=831954&action=edit
working image of "l" shape

Does this looks good? Minimal approach to resolve confusion :)

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #6 from [e-mail] ---
It certainly is less confusing and I would consider it an improvement, though a
rounded curvature at the bottom would be still better in my mind. Rounding the
bottom would make it more recognizable as a lowercase "l". Your working image
could possibly be confused as a capital "L".

I've attached an image of how things currently look in DejaVu Sans Mono, Source
Code Pro, Ubuntu Mono, and Liberation Mono. An "l" shaped like one of the first
three would be ideal to my perception, though admittedly I don't fully
understand all of the technical implications of adopting such a design.

Thanks!

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #7 from [e-mail] ---
Created attachment 832085
  --> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=832085&action=edit
Comparison of "l" in text

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #8 from Pravin Satpute  ---
Yes agree, round shape at bottom required to avoid confusion with capital "L"

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #9 from [e-mail] ---
Is a fix for this still being considered for inclusion in the next release, and
is there any timeframe in mind for this?

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #10 from Pravin Satpute  ---
Problem here is, if we modify this shape we will lost the hinting instruction
for this shape.

Definitely same time we can do auto hinting but it will not give as sharp
outline as given by present hinting instruction.

Will do one thing, i will modify and provide test file, please test those and
update me on same.

will do it this week.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #11 from [e-mail] ---
I would be love to see an updated file when it's available and would be happy
to give feedback.

Thank you!

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

LiberationLove  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

--- Comment #12 from LiberationLove  ---
Can I download update somewhere? Bug with 1 VS l is blocking for me.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #13 from Pravin Satpute  ---
Hi, 
  Nice username :) 
  Just give me one week. i am working on fixing #1072095, hoping to fix this
bug as well with it.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #14 from [e-mail] ---
Is there a status update on this?

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #15 from Pravin Satpute  ---
Not yet..looking forward to complete it this month.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

Spiderhunter  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

--- Comment #16 from Spiderhunter  ---
No updates? Any problems?

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #17 from Pravin Satpute  ---
I am working on liberation fonts from last 2 weeks, soon will touch this issue.

In between Liberation fonts version 2 also available on github now
https://github.com/pravins/liberation-fonts

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #18 from Pravin Satpute  ---
first of all apologies for taking so much time for this.

I have updated 'l' shape in mono all relevant files are available @

http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation-mono/

Please test .ttf and update me whether any issue or more required.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #19 from Reed Kerr  ---
I love the new shape! Thank you so much.

It does seem to render oddly at the 12 point size on my system. I'm attaching a
screenshot of how it's rendering at 11, 12, and 13 sizes. the leftward serif at
the top seems unproportionally wide at 12, though the other sizes seem fine.

I took the screenshot in MS Word, but I've confirmed that it does the same in
other applications on my system as well. Is that a problem on my system, or
something in the font file?

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #20 from Reed Kerr  ---
Created attachment 895130
  --> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=895130&action=edit
Showing new character at 11, 12, and 13

Notice the width of the leftward serif at the top of the character at 12. It
does not appear proportional to the 11 and 13 sizes. This screenshot was taken
in MS Word 2013 on Windows 7.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #21 from Reed Kerr  ---
Created attachment 895135
  --> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=895135&action=edit
Showing new character at various sizes

This screenshot was taken on the same Windows 7 system in LibreOffice Writer
4.2.2.1. It shows the 'l' character at all the common sizes, and highlights the
inconsistencies in the leftward serif at the top of the character.

12, 14 and 15 seem unusually wide, while 13, 16 and 18 seem significantly more
narrow. As I noted if my earlier comment though, the 12 size seems the most
problematic to my perception.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

--- Comment #22 from Pravin Satpute  ---
I was waiting to fix this issue before next upstream release. Just update to
shape will not work, we need to add correct hinting instructions as well to fix
this.

I will do next release with other fix and keep this pending for next one.

[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

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[Bug 1005780] Liberation Sans Mono Enhancement Request: Modification needed for "l" Character

[Red Hat Bugzilla]

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005780

Fedora End Of Life  changed:

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        Last Closed|                            |2015-02-18 06:26:34

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