[Bug 503430] New: Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Summary: Incorrect Kerning in some applications

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=503430

Summary: Incorrect Kerning in some applications
           Product: Fedora
           Version: rawhide
          Platform: All
        OS/Version: Linux
            Status: NEW
          Severity: medium
          Priority: low
         Component: liberation-fonts
        AssignedTo: [e-mail]
        ReportedBy: [e-mail]
         QAContact: [e-mail]
                CC: [e-mail], [e-mail],
                    [e-mail]
    Classification: Fedora

Description of problem: The kerning is incorrect in some applications.

How reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1. Install the Microsoft Corefonts for comparions (corefonts.sf.net)
2. Load Abiword and type "Test AV fi" on first and second line. Set first line
to Arial and second line to Liberation Sans.
3. Repeat step 2 in Openoffice

Actual results:
The kerning is incorrect in Openoffice

Expected results:
The kerning should match in Openoffice

Additional info:
The same problems occurs when using the Liberation fonts with Apache FOP
(http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/)

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Fyva  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

--- Comment #2 from Fyva   2009-06-26 00:33:40 EDT ---
The kerning of Liberation Serif font version 1.04 is not working neither on
Linux, nor on Windows. Tested with OpenOffice.org.
Liberation Serif Version 1.00 works OK on Linux.
Liberation Serif Version 1.03 works OK on Windows.
Liberation Serif Version 1.04 does not work neither on Linux nor on Windows.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #3 from Fyva   2009-06-26 00:44:54 EDT ---
Created an attachment (id=349507)
 --> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=349507)
1.04 in comparison with 1.00

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Fyva  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    External Bug ID|                            |OpenOffice.org 103157

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Caius 'kaio' Chance  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |CLOSED
         Resolution|                            |WONTFIX

--- Comment #4 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-06-30 22:52:21 EDT ---
Zap this bug. Please reopen if bug persists after testing on latest version.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Nicolas Mailhot  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           Keywords|                            |Reopened
             Status|CLOSED                      |ASSIGNED
         Resolution|WONTFIX                     |

--- Comment #5 from Nicolas Mailhot   2009-07-01 07:07:24 EDT ---
As an aside, OO.o devs posted on how to generate OO.o-compatible kerning in
fontforge here:

http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=103157

« Liberation 1.00 to 1.03 contained the traditional kern tables, but 1.04 did
neither contain them nor 
their newer GPOS.kern counterparts. Version 1.05 provides kerning details only
via GPOS, but not via 
the traditional tables. Since 1.05 onyl uses the "pair adjustment" type of
GPOS.kern there is no good 
reason they do not also provide the traditional tables.

Especially when considering the OpenType 1.06 specification, which is quite
clear on that topic: "Fonts 
intended for cross-platform use or for the Windows platform in general should
conform to the 'kern' 
table format". I support this notion.

@fyva: if you use fontforge to create your fonts please do not forget to enable
the "Traditional Kerning"
checkbox in File->GenerateFonts->Options->SFNT »

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #6 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-02 19:47:56 EDT ---
Thanks for info. I am redoing the conversion with your suggestions.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #7 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-06 01:19:38 EDT ---
Hi Nicolas, could you do me a favor for taking screenshot on "GenerationFonts
window" and "SFNT windows" so I could check correct options when generating the
font please? Thanks a lot!

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #8 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-06 02:09:32 EDT ---
Hi Fyva, could you test again with 1.05.1.20090706 please?

https://fedorahosted.org/releases/l/i/liberation-fonts/liberation-fonts-ttf-...

https://fedorahosted.org/releases/l/i/liberation-fonts/liberation-fonts-ttf-...

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #9 from Fyva   2009-07-07 03:10:37 EDT ---
Created an attachment (id=350739)
 --> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=350739)
1.05.1.20090706.zip on Linux with Abiword and OOo 3.1.0

Version 1.05.1.20090706.zip don't show kerning on Linux and Windows in
OpenOffice.org 3.1.0 for Liberation Serif.
Liberation-fonts-ttf-1.05.1.20090706.tar.gz is broken?
(liberation-fonts-ttf-1.05.1.20090630.tar.gz too?)
md5sum fb44d8d873d75ea21a8e34a752b33c59 
liberation-fonts-ttf-1.05.1.20090630.tar.gz
md5sum 20552f52883a8a1440e13526f3765313 
liberation-fonts-ttf-1.05.1.20090706.tar.gz
It gives this error when extracting with tar on Linux:
tar: Skipping to next header
tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors
7-zip on Linux and 7-zip on Windows can't open them too (can open gz, but can't
open tar)

On Windows the kerning do not work too for 1.05.1.20090706.zip in OOo 3.1.0.
(Liberation fonts in these archives opened with FontForge (or font preview on
Windows) show wrong version number 1.02.)

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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[e-mail] changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

--- Comment #10 from [e-mail]  2009-07-07 07:11:48 EDT ---
The new fonts do not contain the traditional kern tables either. I will attach
the fontforge screenshots to guide you how to generate them.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #11 from hdu   2009-07-07 09:03:33 EDT ---
Created an attachment (id=350791)
 --> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=350791)
generating fonts with traditional kerning in fontforge, step one

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #12 from hdu   2009-07-07 09:04:22 EDT ---
Created an attachment (id=350792)
 --> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=350792)
generating fonts with traditional kerning in fontforge, step two

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #13 from hdu   2009-07-07 09:05:13 EDT ---
Created an attachment (id=350793)
 --> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=350793)
generating fonts with traditional kerning in fontforge, step three

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #14 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-07 20:20:27 EDT ---
(In reply to comment #9)
> On Windows the kerning do not work too for 1.05.1.20090706.zip in OOo 3.1.0.
> (Liberation fonts in these archives opened with FontForge (or font preview on
> Windows) show wrong version number 1.02.)

Hi, thanks for info.

a. I am doing repack now.
b. I have this one acknowledged. Will file another bug for record.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #15 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-07 20:20:54 EDT ---
(In reply to comment #10)
> The new fonts do not contain the traditional kern tables either. I will attach
> the fontforge screenshots to guide you how to generate them.

Thanks for screenshot!

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #16 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-07 20:25:08 EDT ---
(In reply to comment #13)
> Created an attachment (id=350793)

--> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=350793) [details]
> generating fonts with traditional kerning in fontforge, step three

Is all other checkboxes correct on the screenshot of step three?

I used scripts to utilize fontforge to create TTFs from SFDs. Am I supposed to
add 'Old Style kern' in the scripts also?

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Caius 'kaio' Chance  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Blocks|                            |508899

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Caius 'kaio' Chance  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Blocks|                            |463036

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Caius 'kaio' Chance  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Blocks|                            |487581

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Caius 'kaio' Chance  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Blocks|                            |510174

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #17 from hdu   2009-07-08 02:59:20 EDT ---
> Is all other checkboxes correct on the screenshot of step three?

You seem to use *sfd files for editing+managing the fonts and then generate the
font files from them? If this is so then it makes sense to keep the checkboxes
regarding "PfaEdit Tables" disabled.

If fontforge didn't default to enable the checkbox for "PS Glyph Names" I
wouldn't have enabled it either. They only cost a few KB though and maybe other
apps have some use for them.
> I used scripts to utilize fontforge to create TTFs from SFDs. Am I supposed to add 'Old Style kern' in the scripts also?

I guess so.

Since you are targeting the fonts also for Windows please be aware of the
problem I outlined in
http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=102911#desc16
Just make sure that all glyphs references in kerning pairs have a codepoint
inside the unicode baseplane assigned.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #18 from Nicolas Mailhot   2009-07-08 03:47:52 EDT ---
(In reply to comment #17)
> > I used scripts to utilize fontforge to create TTFs from SFDs. Am I supposed
> > to add 'Old Style kern' in the scripts also?
>
> I guess so.

It seems best practice to include old tables for now as some software does not
work properly otherwise (though said software should also fix its font support
bugs, we can't make sure every possible font in the distro respects this even
if we do try to improve their overall quality)

I don't have the faintest idea how it works scripts-wise. Asking on fontforge
lists is probably the right channel (if you need a specific fontforge version
for it to work I'm sure our fontforge maintainer will be happy to update it)

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #19 from Nicolas Mailhot   2009-07-08 03:51:46 EDT ---
(In reply to comment #17)
> > Is all other checkboxes correct on the screenshot of step three?
> Since you are targeting the fonts also for Windows please be aware of the
> problem I outlined in
> http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=102911#desc16
> Just make sure that all glyphs references in kerning pairs have a codepoint
> inside the unicode baseplane assigned.

@hdu please open DejaVu bugs at DejaVu upstream. Also, is this a problem for
FLOSS windows apps that go through cairo and fontconfig (as they should
nowadays?)

http://behdad.org/text/

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #20 from hdu   2009-07-10 08:01:40 EDT ---
> @hdu please open DejaVu bugs at DejaVu upstream

Here we are working on getting the liberation fonts into good shape. Testing
them for common problems seen in related fonts (like DejaVu) should be
considered to be a valid concern. Else there is that easily avoidable risk that
new releases fail on windows with exactly the same symptoms.
> Also, is this a problem for FLOSS windows apps that go through cairo and fontconfig (as they should
> nowadays?)

AFAIK most applications on Windows are not yet ported to to go through cairo or
fontconfig for their graphics needs. These could be considered obsolete
irrelevant by some but this is probably quite hard to convicnenot the consensus
of the users on that platform. If these other apps depend on the Windows GDI
call GetKerningPairs() instead they have the same problem. I'm sorry I cannot
provide the exact list of every app (be it FLOSS or traditional) and the exact
versions that are affected. If somebody else can provide such a list this would
be most appreciated. All I'm saying is that this problem would affect every
application that relies on the GetKerningPairs() call.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #21 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-13 02:35:21 EDT ---
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/taskinfo?taskID=1470687

Tried added fmflags in fontforge script, to include old style kern table during
generation from SFDs to TTFs.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #22 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-13 02:41:46 EDT ---
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=114049

http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/packages/liberation-fonts/1.05.1.20090713/...

Please check if traditional kern table is are there. Could anyone kindly share
procedures of test?

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #23 from hdu   2009-07-13 09:47:45 EDT ---
> Please check if traditional kern table is are there

Sorry, they are not.
> Could anyone kindly share procedures of test?

The quickest way to check if the table is there is by just doing
   hexdump -C LiberationSans-Regular.ttf 
which will result in something like
00000000  00 01 00 00 00 12 01 00  00 04 00 20 46 46 54 4d  |........... FFTM|
00000010  49 21 dd a2 00 02 0f b0  00 00 00 1c 47 44 45 46  |I!..........GDEF|
00000020  00 27 02 a5 00 01 fe 8c  00 00 00 1e 47 50 4f 53  |.'..........GPOS|
00000030  ec 90 e4 de 00 01 fe fc  00 00 10 b4 47 53 55 42  |............GSUB|
00000040  93 3c 82 4b 00 01 fe ac  00 00 00 50 4f 53 2f 32  |.<.K.......POS/2|
00000050  f7 1a 8b 76 00 00 01 a8  00 00 00 60 63 6d 61 70  |...v.......`cmap|
00000060  1d c3 05 9f 00 00 0c 84  00 00 0b b6 63 76 74 20  |............cvt |
00000070  41 f4 43 ea 00 00 22 1c  00 00 02 14 66 70 67 6d  |A.C...".....fpgm|
00000080  73 d3 23 b0 00 00 18 3c  00 00 07 05 67 61 73 70  |s.#....<....gasp|
00000090  00 18 00 09 00 01 fe 7c  00 00 00 10 67 6c 79 66  |.......|....glyf|
000000a0  93 48 ad 96 00 00 29 70  00 01 b8 f4 68 65 61 64  |.H....)p....head|
000000b0  f2 fb 5b ca 00 00 01 2c  00 00 00 36 68 68 65 61  |..[....,...6hhea|
000000c0  0e 4b 08 a2 00 00 01 64  00 00 00 24 68 6d 74 78  |.K.....d...$hmtx|
000000d0  2e dd 09 42 00 00 02 08  00 00 0a 7c 6c 6f 63 61  |...B.......|loca|
000000e0  50 0f c1 1e 00 00 24 30  00 00 05 40 6d 61 78 70  |P.....$0...@maxp|
000000f0  07 04 07 d0 00 00 01 88  00 00 00 20 6e 61 6d 65  |........... name|
00000100  23 57 ab c2 00 01 e2 64  00 00 07 fb 70 6f 73 74  |#W.....d....post|
00000110  5a cf 99 96 00 01 ea 60  00 00 14 19 70 72 65 70  |Z......`....prep|

The table-name-tags are easily visible in the hexdump. Please note that the
"kern" tag is missing in this example as the traditional kern table is missing
in the font file.

Try TTX (from http://sourceforge.net/projects/fonttools/) if you don't like the
hexdump-method.

Another method to check if the font is directly usable on Windows is to use the
GetKerningPairs() API for this font and check the result.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #24 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-13 19:40:56 EDT ---
I generated from the SFD to the TTF manually with fontforge (on Fedora 11) and
the kern table is there:

$ hexdump -C LiberationSans.ttf |grep kern
000000d0  2e dd 09 42 00 00 02 18  00 00 0a 7c 6b 65 72 6e  |...B.......|kern|

However, I could not make it with my fontforge script. Need to confirm if the
fmflags are only working on specific later versions of fontforge.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #25 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-13 21:14:39 EDT ---
Used the fontforge 20090408 to generate:

http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org/packages/liberation-fonts/1.05.1.20090713/...

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #26 from hdu   2009-07-14 03:22:54 EDT ---
These fonts have the same problem...

Seeing that the related question regarding fontforge-scripting has been
answered in fontforge-devel
(http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20090714045412.GA45...)
we're getting close though.

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #27 from Caius 'kaio' Chance   2009-07-21 00:36:42 EDT ---
Redone the conversion script:

https://fedorahosted.org/releases/l/i/liberation-fonts/liberation-fonts-ttf-...

https://fedorahosted.org/releases/l/i/liberation-fonts/liberation-fonts-ttf-...

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Caius 'kaio' Chance  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           Keywords|                            |i18n

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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--- Comment #28 from Fyva   2009-07-21 01:36:31 EDT ---
Created an attachment (id=354434)
 --> (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=354434)
kerning for Liberation Serif in liberation-fonts-ttf-1.05.1.20090721.zip

It seems that these fonts work properly (see picture, tested on Linux with
OOo310m11).

(BTW, the archives tar.gz are apparently OK. I get the error due to my time
settings:
tar: ttf/LiberationMono-BoldItalic.ttf: time stamp 2009-07-21 05:48:21 is
9045.718828424 s in the future )

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Caius 'kaio' Chance  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|ASSIGNED                    |CLOSED
         Resolution|                            |RAWHIDE

[Bug 503430] Incorrect Kerning in some applications

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Kevin Kofler  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Blocks|508899                      |