Spam problems ==> Even harder to be a contributor for translations...

[Jean-Baptiste]

Hi there,

because of spam, contributors need to be in one of the special groups to 
edit wiki (often annotated as CLA+1).

Most of the translation contributors aren't in those groups...

Localization team engagement is already difficult : create FAS, create 
bugzilla, register at trans, register at trans-LOCALE, introduce 
yourself, log in Zanata with FAS, as to be added. It can take days, if 
you do it right, because if you start register with zanata, then 
subscribe with your email to trans then create fas, then realise your 
login is already taken, you'll lose a lot of time...


Do someone have an idea about how to make this easier ?


All the details are here : 
https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/5398


At the moment, the only one we currently have dedicated to translators 
is cvsl10n. But I'm not sure the answer is to have every contributors in 
cvsl10n group or in cvsl10n-LOCALE would make it more simply.


-- 
Jean-Baptiste Holcroft

[Parag Nemade]

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft
<jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:
>  Hi there,
>
>  because of spam, contributors need to be in one of the special groups to
>  edit wiki (often annotated as CLA+1).
>
>  Most of the translation contributors aren't in those groups...
>
>  Localization team engagement is already difficult : create FAS, create
>  bugzilla, register at trans, register at trans-LOCALE, introduce yourself,
>  log in Zanata with FAS, as to be added. It can take days, if you do it
>  right, because if you start register with zanata, then subscribe with your
>  email to trans then create fas, then realise your login is already taken,
>  you'll lose a lot of time... 
Can you help to understand which part from above actually takes more
time? I think a new contributor can complete following things in a day
1) Create FAS and sign FPCA (say 5 min)
2) Create bugzilla with same email id that you used in FAS
registration (say 5 min)
3) register at trans and at trans-locale (no idea how much time it takes)
4) introduce yourself (I suppose this mean sending email on trans list
say 5 min)
5) if all above is already done, login to Zanata using FAS (instant access)

Above should be general workflow. Correct me if I am wrong as I am not
related to l10n group.

Where do you see it take more time?

>  Do someone have an idea about how to make this easier ? 
If you as a already existing or say new l10n contributor (who should
then complete above steps) then you should be in cvsl10n group. And
that makes your account (CLA+1).

>  All the details are here :
>  https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/5398
>
>
>  At the moment, the only one we currently have dedicated to translators is
>  cvsl10n. But I'm not sure the answer is to have every contributors in
>  cvsl10n group or in cvsl10n-LOCALE would make it more simply. 
This is totally a call for l10n group leaders to decide on. From my
view if you are a l10n contributor shouldn't you need to be in cvsl10n
group? Maybe I am not sure what exactly cvsl10n membership provides
but I think membership of cvsl10n is sufficient.

Regards,
Parag.

[Jean-Baptiste]

No offense, but you're a technical expert and used to Fedora's way of 
working ;)
Plus, you analyzed a process and did not experienced it as the target : 
newcomer who knows nothing about Fedora process/rules and would like to 
correct something or help translating something he likes.

I remember my registering last year and it is not as easy has it looks 
like. It was confirmed by two newcomers in french team.
If the wiki needs the contributor to be in a dedicated group, I think 
it's time to discuss process, make it easier and to document it.

I think nobody knows what "cvsl10n" means anymore and the vocable is 
changing a lot from Coordinator, Sponsor, Maintainer, Administrator (I 
discovered this one today). Now, you're talking about "Leaders", are 
they the same ?
How to we change responsibilities from one to another ? And what can we 
do if one coordinator/sponsor/leader/... don't answer anymore so we make 
sure no contributor is neglected ?

It's even harder for contributors to understand the limit between the 
translation platform we use as a tool and Zanata as a independent project.
Plus, it's hard for a coordinator to understand what tools does he have 
to manage something (not a lot actually).

All l10n groups looks out of date (names are very old, so are links and 
the percentage of unapproved subscription is very high, witch _may_ mean 
: no more management) :

cvsl10n 
<https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/cvsl10n?_csrf_token=a...

	Translation CVS Commit Group 	cvs 	cla_done
gitman-pages-l10n 
<https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/gitman-pages-l10n?_cs...

	gitman-pages-l10n 	git 	cla_done
l10n-admin 
<https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-admin?_csrf_toke...

	l10n Admin Group 	tracking 	cla_done
l10n-commits 
<https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-commits?_csrf_to...

	l10n Commit Group 	tracking 	None
l10n-editor 
<https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-editor?_csrf_tok...

	Localization (L10n) Editors 	tracking 	cla_done


Note that the "L10N/Guide" page says everyone has to be in cvsl10n but 
the "L10N maintainer" page may be understood that it is to be maintainer.

What's the purpose of creating a component in bugzilla if we have no 
mailing list to be warned ?
What makes a languages dead or alive ?

If we have to create one or many groups, can we take benefit of it ? In 
knowing who are the contacts, responsibilities, reach them, sync with 
fedora.zanata ?

BTW, why do we have private mailing lists ? It already sounds weir as 
open-source contribution/discussions should be public by default and 
private by exception, but even more since hyperkitty can't register 
anymore, you may try with trans-pl being registered or not : 
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/?count=200&sort=name&page=3


It's a lot of questions and I think we should admit it isn't easy to 
come and contribute Fedora translations and to understand how does it works.
This spam issue looks like a good opportunity to make it easier (maybe 
not by deleting steps, but by making it smoother, more consistent).

-- 
Jean-Baptiste Holcroft

[Parag Nemade]

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 11:46 PM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft
<jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:
>  No offense, but you're a technical expert and used to
> Fedora's way of
>  working ;) 
Sure, being a technical expert I know the things so I may see them easy.

>  Plus, you analyzed a process and did not experienced it as the target
> :
>  newcomer who knows nothing about Fedora process/rules and would like to
>  correct something or help translating something he likes. 
Yes I analysed to give you overview and want to understand which exact
part it takes time. There are 2 things here one from fedora-infra and
other from L10N group.

>  I remember my registering last year and it is not as easy has it looks like.
>  It was confirmed by two newcomers in french team.
>  If the wiki needs the contributor to be in a dedicated group, I think it's
>  time to discuss process, make it easier and to document it. 
So here I feel you found issues in L10N process and not related to
fedora-infra fas creation, bugzilla account creation etc.

>  I think nobody knows what "cvsl10n" means anymore and the vocable is
>  changing a lot from Coordinator, Sponsor, Maintainer, Administrator (I
>  discovered this one today). Now, you're talking about "Leaders", are they
>  the same ? 

Yes. They are same. Here I meant by Leaders mean people who have
powers to sponsor in a cvsl10n group, people who are active
(maintainers/co-ordinators) and work together currently for L10N only
these people know what is happening currently in L10N.

>  How to we change responsibilities from one to another ? And what can
> we do
>  if one coordinator/sponsor/leader/... don't answer anymore so we make sure
>  no contributor is neglected ?
>
>  It's even harder for contributors to understand the limit between the
>  translation platform we use as a tool and Zanata as a independent project.
>  Plus, it's hard for a coordinator to understand what tools does he have to
>  manage something (not a lot actually).
>
>  All l10n groups looks out of date (names are very old, so are links and the
>  percentage of unapproved subscription is very high, witch _may_ mean : no
>  more management) :
>
>  cvsl10n
>
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/cvsl10n?_csrf_token=a...
>  Translation CVS Commit Group    cvs     cla_done
>  gitman-pages-l10n
>
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/gitman-pages-l10n?_cs...
>  gitman-pages-l10n       git     cla_done
>  l10n-admin
>
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-admin?_csrf_toke...
>  l10n Admin Group        tracking        cla_done
>  l10n-commits
>
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-commits?_csrf_to...
>  l10n Commit Group       tracking        None
>  l10n-editor
>
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-editor?_csrf_tok...
>  Localization (L10n) Editors     tracking        cla_done
>
>
>  Note that the "L10N/Guide" page says everyone has to be in cvsl10n but the
>  "L10N maintainer" page may be understood that it is to be maintainer.
>
>  What's the purpose of creating a component in bugzilla if we have no mailing
>  list to be warned ?
>  What makes a languages dead or alive ?
>
>  If we have to create one or many groups, can we take benefit of it ? In
>  knowing who are the contacts, responsibilities, reach them, sync with
>  fedora.zanata ?
>
>  BTW, why do we have private mailing lists ? It already sounds weir as
>  open-source contribution/discussions should be public by default and private
>  by exception, but even more since hyperkitty can't register anymore, you may
>  try with trans-pl being registered or not :
>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/?count=200&sort=name&page=3
>
>
>  It's a lot of questions and I think we should admit it isn't easy to come
>  and contribute Fedora translations and to understand how does it works.
>  This spam issue looks like a good opportunity to make it easier (maybe not
>  by deleting steps, but by making it smoother, more consistent). 

Sounds like a many question which really need answers from L10N group.
I am not the person who can reply for this. Let's wait for someone
from L10N to reply.

Regards,
Parag.

[Noriko Mizumoto]

On 2016年07月18日 14:46, Parag Nemade wrote:
>  Hi,
>  
>  On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 11:46 PM, Jean-Baptiste Holcroft
>  <jean-baptiste(a)holcroft.fr&gt; wrote:
> > No offense, but you're a technical expert and used to Fedora's way of
> > working ;)
>  
>  Sure, being a technical expert I know the things so I may see them easy.
>  
> > Plus, you analyzed a process and did not experienced it as the target :
> > newcomer who knows nothing about Fedora process/rules and would like to
> > correct something or help translating something he likes.
>  
>  Yes I analysed to give you overview and want to understand which exact
>  part it takes time. There are 2 things here one from fedora-infra and
>  other from L10N group.
>  
> >
> > I remember my registering last year and it is not as easy has it looks like.
> > It was confirmed by two newcomers in french team.
> > If the wiki needs the contributor to be in a dedicated group, I think it's
> > time to discuss process, make it easier and to document it.
>  
>  So here I feel you found issues in L10N process and not related to
>  fedora-infra fas creation, bugzilla account creation etc. 
Hi, I added trans at list mailing list.
I understand the sentence as, if a translator wants to edit the wiki
page he/she is required to obtain certain FAS group membership. Please
correct me if I am misunderstanding.

This process involves fedora-infra or FAS. Btw I don't see any wrong in
this process...

>  
> >
> > I think nobody knows what "cvsl10n" means anymore and the vocable is
> > changing a lot from Coordinator, Sponsor, Maintainer, Administrator (I
> > discovered this one today). Now, you're talking about "Leaders", are
> they
> > the same ?
>  
>  
>  Yes. They are same. Here I meant by Leaders mean people who have
>  powers to sponsor in a cvsl10n group, people who are active
>  (maintainers/co-ordinators) and work together currently for L10N only
>  these people know what is happening currently in L10N. 
I see Parag has already given good information here. Just let me add
some information I know. 'Sponsor' is used in FAS. 'Coordinator' is used
widely in L10N team, referring a leader or senior who can support other
translators in the team. 'Maintainer' means same with 'Coordinator,
which would be obsolete term but can not be removed if it is the part of
page link.

>  
> > How to we change responsibilities from one to another ? And what can we do
> > if one coordinator/sponsor/leader/... don't answer anymore so we make sure
> > no contributor is neglected ? 
It would be best that current coordinator nominate new coordinator and
announce in trans at list when he wants to retire.

> >
> > It's even harder for contributors to understand the limit between the
> > translation platform we use as a tool and Zanata as a independent project.
> > Plus, it's hard for a coordinator to understand what tools does he have to
> > manage something (not a lot actually).
> >
> > All l10n groups looks out of date (names are very old, so are links and the
> > percentage of unapproved subscription is very high, witch _may_ mean : no
> > more management) :
> >
> > cvsl10n
> >
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/cvsl10n?_csrf_token=a...
> > Translation CVS Commit Group    cvs     cla_done 
This is valid, afaik, translator who likes to give a edit needs to join.

> > gitman-pages-l10n
> >
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/gitman-pages-l10n?_cs...
> > gitman-pages-l10n       git     cla_done 
The owner is Tagoh, please contact him for detail.

> > l10n-admin
> >
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-admin?_csrf_toke...
> > l10n Admin Group        tracking        cla_done 
Assuming that this group was used to manage transifex. I think this
group can be closed/removed.

> > l10n-commits
> >
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-commits?_csrf_to...
> > l10n Commit Group       tracking        None 
This group was for tracking some commits, but no longer valid.

> > l10n-editor
> >
> <https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/view/l10n-editor?_csrf_tok...
> > Localization (L10n) Editors     tracking        cla_done 
Again it seems transifex related, pls contact the owner.

> >
> >
> > Note that the "L10N/Guide" page says everyone has to be in cvsl10n but the
> > "L10N maintainer" page may be understood that it is to be maintainer.
This page is obsolete. Please refer new one updated by our community
translators.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Translate_on_Zanata

> >
> > What's the purpose of creating a component in bugzilla if we have no mailing
> > list to be warned ? 
For example, if one finds bad translation via QA test or daily use and
would like to report, he/she can choose the language component.

> > What makes a languages dead or alive ? 
What is the purpose to make a language dead, even it can possibly come
to life sometime later?

> >
> > If we have to create one or many groups, can we take benefit of it ? In
> > knowing who are the contacts, responsibilities, reach them, sync with
> > fedora.zanata ?
> >
> > BTW, why do we have private mailing lists ? It already sounds weir as
> > open-source contribution/discussions should be public by default and private
> > by exception, but even more since hyperkitty can't register anymore, you may
> > try with trans-pl being registered or not :
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/?count=200&sort=name&page=3 
Making a mailing list public or private depends on each team's decision.

> >
> >
> > It's a lot of questions and I think we should admit it isn't easy to come
> > and contribute Fedora translations and to understand how does it works.
> > This spam issue looks like a good opportunity to make it easier (maybe not
> > by deleting steps, but by making it smoother, more consistent).
>   
Sure, all good questions not spam at all :-)
noriko

>  
>  Sounds like a many question which really need answers from L10N group.
>  I am not the person who can reply for this. Let's wait for someone
>  from L10N to reply.
>  
>  Regards,
>  Parag.
>  _______________________________________________
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>  https://lists.fedoraproject.org/admin/lists/[e-mail]
>