The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on the games spin.
For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable.
Spins will now not be features. I need to create a spin page with a slightly different format and move over all of my data from the feature page. This won't be done tonight, but I will send another update when it is complete that includes the new URL.
I plan to continue testing livecd-creator patches to allow larger spins to make sure this feature is in place and provides an option for larger spins.
I am still having problems with X on F11, which limits the amount of testing I can do.
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on the games spin.
For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable.
Openarena is one of the few truly free and open source 3D shooters on relatively recent engine. It is also quite popular. Which ones are you comparing it too?
Rahul
Battle of Wesnoth FlightGear Hedgewar Tremulous Alien Arena
You can see some games in DJL. Is an app about news and release of lots linux games.
2009/1/20, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org:
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on the games spin.
For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable.
Openarena is one of the few truly free and open source 3D shooters on relatively recent engine. It is also quite popular. Which ones are you comparing it too?
Rahul
Fedora-games-list mailing list Fedora-games-list@redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 14:09:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram sundaram@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on the games spin.
For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable.
Openarena is one of the few truly free and open source 3D shooters on relatively recent engine. It is also quite popular. Which ones are you comparing it too?
I needed to drop about 160 MB from the iso. I got a list of the installed rpms and sorted them by size. Everything above about 10 or 20 MB was a game or a dependency of a game. Trying to remove stuff that wasn't a game but pulled in as part of the desktop was going to require removing at least 10 packages and whatever depended on them. Most likely it would have ended up being many smaller packages. Of the top games in size it appeared to be less unique than some others. I also had the option to remove several smaller games, but that also seemed like a bad option.
I don't have the sorted package list handy, but I'll look at sending out the top part of the list so people can comment on it.
I think a better approach is convincing the Spins SIG that the benefit of being able to go to 4.7 GB as more important than the cost of going over 4 GiB.
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
I needed to drop about 160 MB from the iso. I got a list of the installed rpms and sorted them by size. Everything above about 10 or 20 MB was a game or a dependency of a game. Trying to remove stuff that wasn't a game but pulled in as part of the desktop was going to require removing at least 10 packages and whatever depended on them. Most likely it would have ended up being many smaller packages. Of the top games in size it appeared to be less unique than some others. I also had the option to remove several smaller games, but that also seemed like a bad option.
Not sure if it helps, but revisor allows for reporting the sizes of the packages used; --report-sizes
Bear in mind though livecd-tools is used for the official compose, and naturally there's a difference in how revisor or livecd-tools composes the media.
-Jeroen
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on the games spin.
For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable.
A new version of livecd-tools was built yesterday, 021-1, and it has the patch for supporting UDF in it.
Spins will now not be features. I need to create a spin page with a slightly different format and move over all of my data from the feature page. This won't be done tonight, but I will send another update when it is complete that includes the new URL.
I plan to continue testing livecd-creator patches to allow larger spins to make sure this feature is in place and provides an option for larger spins.
I am still having problems with X on F11, which limits the amount of testing I can do.
(side-note)
This can be a dependency for the Games Spin, as obviously most games need X to work properly.
(/side-note)
Kind regards,
Jeroen van Meeuwen
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:28:58 +0100, Jeroen van Meeuwen kanarip@kanarip.com wrote:
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
A new version of livecd-tools was built yesterday, 021-1, and it has the patch for supporting UDF in it.
Thanks, I look for it. I have been testing stuff in the git repo, but koji is easier.
I am still having problems with X on F11, which limits the amount of testing I can do.
This can be a dependency for the Games Spin, as obviously most games need X to work properly.
This is probably somewhat specific to my hardware otherwise there would be a lot of screaming. Airlie is pretty busy right now with his new kid, though he did do an F10 kernel build with graphics related changes last night, and old ATI hardware isn't his highest priority.
Mostly I have been working on testing the builds and getting bugs that block building and that affect games reported.
It would be nice to have people here try out the alpha spin when it is ready and file bugs about problems. You can cc me in the bugs to make it easier for me to track things. I'll do some limited jaw boning for ones that aren't getting fixed and appear to be important.
Below is the top 100 packages based on rpm size. The number is the size in 1024 byte blocks. PersonalCopy-Lite-patches was a dependency of a lot of stuff including some games.
If the restriction holds for the beta I'll look more carefully at what gets added using the desktop ks as a base over the base ks. That would give me a better idea of what was removable. But I might still end up pulling one of the larger games.
368736 nexuiz-data-2.4.2-1.fc10.noarch.rpm 274100 openarena-0.7.7-2.fc10.noarch.rpm 273088 alienarena-data-20081016-1.fc10.noarch.rpm 245184 FlightGear-data-1.9.0-1.fc11.noarch.rpm 142912 wesnoth-data-1.4.7-1.fc11.noarch.rpm 124444 freedroidrpg-0.11.1-2.fc11.i386.rpm 101248 fillets-ng-data-0.8.0-2.noarch.rpm 99280 tremulous-data-1.1.0-4.fc8.noarch.rpm 75276 astromenace-data-1.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 67840 beneath-a-steel-sky-cd-0.0372-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 63844 glest-data-3.1.2-1.fc9.noarch.rpm 62884 egoboo-data-2.7.5-3.fc11.noarch.rpm 62380 boswars-2.5-1.fc9.i386.rpm 61816 widelands-0-0.13.Build13.fc11.i386.rpm 59192 supertuxkart-0.5-2.fc10.i386.rpm 58712 scorched3d-41.3-4.fc11.i386.rpm 55920 torcs-data-tracks-road-1.3.0-2.noarch.rpm 50272 wormux-data-0.8.2-3.fc11.i386.rpm 49700 openlierox-0.57-0.11.beta8.fc11.i386.rpm 49656 gcompris-8.4.8-2.fc11.i386.rpm 45752 PersonalCopy-Lite-patches-4.1-3.fc9.noarch.rpm 44124 warzone2100-2.1.0-1.fc11.i386.rpm 44004 supertux-0.3.1-4.fc11.i386.rpm 38640 nethack-vultures-2.1.0-15.fc11.i386.rpm 38268 lincity-ng-data-1.97-0.3.beta.fc11.i386.rpm 36264 flight-of-the-amazon-queen-cd-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 35588 blobAndConquer-1.0-1.fc10.i386.rpm 33220 nogravity-data-2.00-4.fc9.noarch.rpm 32920 kdegames-4.1.96-1.fc11.i386.rpm 32908 hedgewars-0.9.8-2.fc11.i386.rpm 32428 java-1.6.0-openjdk-1.6.0.0-8.b14.fc11.i386.rpm 32368 stellarium-0.10.0-3.fc11.i386.rpm 30508 OpenSceneGraph-libs-2.6.0-1.fc10.i386.rpm 29888 tuxpaint-stamps-2008.06.30-1.fc10.noarch.rpm 29344 asc-2.2.0.0-2.fc11.i386.rpm 27852 maniadrive-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 27816 extremetuxracer-0.4-1.fc9.i386.rpm 23692 celestia-1.5.0-1.fc9.i386.rpm 22548 glibc-common-2.9.90-2.i386.rpm 21864 raidem-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 20836 xmoto-0.5.0-3.fc11.i386.rpm 20268 kernel-2.6.29-0.41.rc2.fc11.i686.rpm 20212 trackballs-music-1.2-4.fc8.noarch.rpm 20040 frozen-bubble-2.1.0-9.fc10.i386.rpm 19532 foomatic-4.0.0-1.fc11.i386.rpm 19420 auriferous-1.0.1-5.fc9.i386.rpm 19296 libgcj-4.3.2-7.i386.rpm 18712 Ri-li-2.0.1-3.fc9.i386.rpm 18180 torcs-data-1.3.0-2.noarch.rpm 17816 kdelibs3-3.5.10-3.fc11.i386.rpm 16824 magicor-1.1-2.fc11.noarch.rpm 16156 maniadrive-data-1.2-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 16088 ultimatestunts-0.7.5-2.fc11.i386.rpm 15412 gimp-2.6.4-3.fc11.i386.rpm 15056 oxygen-icon-theme-4.1.96-2.fc11.noarch.rpm 14740 gnubg-0.9.0.1-5.fc11.i386.rpm 14344 neverball-1.4.0-14.fc11.i386.rpm 14144 perl-5.10.0-53.fc11.i386.rpm 13608 kdelibs-4.1.96-9.fc11.i386.rpm 13448 libgweather-2.25.4-1.fc11.i386.rpm 12880 solar-backgrounds-0.92.0-1.fc10.noarch.rpm 12496 qt-x11-4.4.3-11.fc11.i386.rpm 12368 evolution-2.25.4-1.fc11.i386.rpm 11920 bzflag-2.0.12-4.fc11.i386.rpm 11768 pingus-0.7.2-4.fc11.i386.rpm 11664 wxPython-2.8.9.1-2.fc11.i386.rpm 11540 netpanzer-0.8.2-4.fc11.i386.rpm 11168 samba-common-3.2.5-0.23.fc11.i386.rpm 10640 glob2-0.9.3-2.fc11.i386.rpm 10552 xulrunner-1.9.1-0.6.beta2.fc11.i386.rpm 10532 asc-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 10428 powermanga-0.90-4.i386.rpm 10368 cjkunifonts-uming-0.2.20080216.1-13.fc11.noarch.rpm 9860 xblast-data-2.10.0-4.fc11.noarch.rpm 9612 torcs-data-cars-extra-1.3.0-2.noarch.rpm 9600 freeciv-2.1.8-1.fc11.i386.rpm 9580 gnome-backgrounds-2.24.0-2.fc10.noarch.rpm 9412 enigma-1.01-7.1.i386.rpm 9356 amoebax-0.2.0-3.fc9.i386.rpm 8536 wordwarvi-0.24-1.fc11.i386.rpm 8148 tuxpaint-0.9.20-2.fc11.i386.rpm 8100 freecol-0.7.4-4.fc11.noarch.rpm 8072 xerces-j2-2.7.1-10.2.fc10.i386.rpm 7552 libpurple-2.5.4-1.fc11.i386.rpm 7436 libabiword-2.6.6-9.fc11.i386.rpm 7220 freedoom-0.6.2-2.fc11.noarch.rpm 6992 tuxtype2-1.5.17-1.fc10.i386.rpm 6840 rocksndiamonds-3.2.6.0-1.fc11.i386.rpm 6816 libicu-4.0.1-1.fc11.i386.rpm 6796 trackballs-1.1.4-7.fc11.i386.rpm 6744 ghostscript-8.63-4.fc10.i386.rpm 6600 alienblaster-1.1.0-4.fc9.i386.rpm 6320 blobwars-1.09b2-2.fc10.i386.rpm 6268 gnome-applets-2.25.3-3.fc11.i386.rpm 5960 gnome-utils-2.25.2-1.fc11.i386.rpm 5940 worminator-data-3.0R2.1-4.fc8.noarch.rpm 5840 glibc-2.9.90-2.i686.rpm 5832 nautilus-2.25.2-6.fc11.i386.rpm 5820 python-2.6-4.fc11.i386.rpm 5796 anaconda-11.5.0.9-1.i386.rpm
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
Below is the top 100 packages based on rpm size. The number is the size in 1024 byte blocks. PersonalCopy-Lite-patches was a dependency of a lot of stuff including some games.
If the restriction holds for the beta I'll look more carefully at what gets added using the desktop ks as a base over the base ks. That would give me a better idea of what was removable. But I might still end up pulling one of the larger games.
27852 maniadrive-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 21864 raidem-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 20212 trackballs-music-1.2-4.fc8.noarch.rpm 10532 asc-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm
I would suggest cutting the *-music packages first. That cleans up ~80GB with no real loss in playability.
--Wart
FYI there has been a thread (http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/fedora-spins/2009-January/000420.ht...) started to discuss whether or not published DVD iso's will be allowed to be over 4 GiB. Since this affects the games spin I thought I would mention it here, since some of you seem to have opinions on this.
It would be especially useful to hear from people that have estimates on how many Windows users that are likely to try out Fedora spins are likely to be using vfat on their C: drive.
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
It would be especially useful to hear from people that have estimates on how many Windows users that are likely to try out Fedora spins are likely to be using vfat on their C: drive.
According to the latest Steam hardware survey:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
97.33% of users are using NTFS. (Click "Other settings" on the bottom)
Really the only worry I see is that 4GB+ images probably won't work for Live USB. USB sticks are usually FAT, and I think the Live USB system requires it, as it uses syslinux. Booting Live USB off NTFS or ext2 should be possible to implement. NTFS patches for GRUB exist, but Fedora's GRUB doesn't seem to have them:
This is pretty useful, I am going to try to tie this into a thread on the spins list which might end up looking weird for threading.
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 14:10:55 -0600, Callum Lerwick seg@haxxed.com wrote:
On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Bruno Wolff III bruno@wolff.to wrote:
It would be especially useful to hear from people that have estimates on how many Windows users that are likely to try out Fedora spins are likely to be using vfat on their C: drive.
According to the latest Steam hardware survey:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
97.33% of users are using NTFS. (Click "Other settings" on the bottom)
Really the only worry I see is that 4GB+ images probably won't work for Live USB. USB sticks are usually FAT, and I think the Live USB system requires it, as it uses syslinux. Booting Live USB off NTFS or ext2 should be possible to implement. NTFS patches for GRUB exist, but Fedora's GRUB doesn't seem to have them:
Grub also allows its files to be referenced by block numbers. That could be used to work around loading the grub config file.
I don't think getting people to reformat their usb drives is that big of a deal. They can copy stuff off, format it, and then copy stuff back. The issue is getting it to work both as liveusb and still letting it be used under windows for moving files around.
-
Bruno Wolff III -
Callum Lerwick -
Guido -
Jeroen van Meeuwen -
Michael Thomas -
Rahul Sundaram