Hi
Are we still planning on doing a CD spin or just a DVD spin? IMO, a CD spin doesn't make much sense considering the size of the games but if anyone feels strongly that it would be useful, I could create a kickstart file for that.
In a previous discussion in #fedora-games, someone suggested that a games spin might disappoint folks since we don't provide proprietary drivers. One of the ideas that I came up to tackle this is a driver buddy. It won't install any drivers nor will it contain pointers but act more like a nudge for users to get cards that has open 3D drivers. So if you have a Nvidia card for example, you will get a message explaining the non-availability of open drives and link to cards that has one.
Fedora bookmarks has been separated from the browser in the last release. Do we want to have games specific bookmarks by default? Someone would have to create a package if this is desirable.
Do we want a special theme for the games spin? We could request the art team to be creative and come up with a distinctive background, look and feel.
Finally, is there any major good games that are possible to package or waiting on review that we need to have before we release this spin?
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hi
Are we still planning on doing a CD spin or just a DVD spin? IMO, a CD spin doesn't make much sense considering the size of the games but if anyone feels strongly that it would be useful, I could create a kickstart file for that.
Nah lets focus on the dvd, that will be enough work to get finished before launch
In a previous discussion in #fedora-games, someone suggested that a games spin might disappoint folks since we don't provide proprietary drivers. One of the ideas that I came up to tackle this is a driver buddy. It won't install any drivers nor will it contain pointers but act more like a nudge for users to get cards that has open 3D drivers. So if you have a Nvidia card for example, you will get a message explaining the non-availability of open drives and link to cards that has one.
I've been thinking about this, and I'm planning in writing a small bash script which uses zenity which can be used as wrapper around 3d games, this script will then first check for dri, and if that isn't available pop up a note (using zenity) saying that 3D hardware accel is needed (with explanation about no open source drivers, etc.) and then exit.
Fedora bookmarks has been separated from the browser in the last release. Do we want to have games specific bookmarks by default? Someone would have to create a package if this is desirable.
Maybe for Fedora 9, for now I would like to juist do the 3d wrapper, if there are others who want to do this thats ok.
Do we want a special theme for the games spin? We could request the art team to be creative and come up with a distinctive background, look and feel.
Again maybe Fedora 9.
Finally, is there any major good games that are possible to package or waiting on review that we need to have before we release this spin?
I would say that we would want to have the second live client, that would need someone to push the submitter of it, he is working on it but mostely doing upstream work. Alternatively we could suggest comaintaining to him and then one of us could get the packages through review, while he concentrates on improving it upstream.
Regards,
Hans
Hans de Goede wrote:
I've been thinking about this, and I'm planning in writing a small bash script which uses zenity which can be used as wrapper around 3d games, this script will then first check for dri, and if that isn't available pop up a note (using zenity) saying that 3D hardware accel is needed (with explanation about no open source drivers, etc.) and then exit.
Sounds good for the short-term alteast. I don't know if we need a "proper" app that uses libnotify instead. Notifications on the system tray are much better than dialog boxes IMO.
I would say that we would want to have the second live client, that would need someone to push the submitter of it, he is working on it but mostely doing upstream work. Alternatively we could suggest comaintaining to him and then one of us could get the packages through review, while he concentrates on improving it upstream.
Ok. Do you want to followup within the package review at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233946. I got interested enough to build this package locally and run it. It sort of connected once and has been continuously crashing everytime after that.
The upstream binary is more recent and more stable but I haven't managed to connect in that either which might be a network firewall block which I don't administrate. Upstream stills call the Linux client "alpha" so I am not too sure about pushing that in.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
I've been thinking about this, and I'm planning in writing a small bash script which uses zenity which can be used as wrapper around 3d games, this script will then first check for dri, and if that isn't available pop up a note (using zenity) saying that 3D hardware accel is needed (with explanation about no open source drivers, etc.) and then exit.
Sounds good for the short-term alteast. I don't know if we need a "proper" app that uses libnotify instead. Notifications on the system tray are much better than dialog boxes IMO.
Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown when the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu.
The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file), I came to this idea cause we could add some generic applet saying that no hw 3D is available and that thus some games won't work properly. But how will a user know which games will be 3D? And quiting a game when its in software rendering mode can be quite painfull, so by adding this wrapper and making games throw an error when there is no hw 3D we avoid the hard to quit when in software rendering mode problem, and we also solve the problem of the user needing to know which games require 3d support, if he tries one which does require 3d support he will just get an error.
I would say that we would want to have the second live client, that would need someone to push the submitter of it, he is working on it but mostely doing upstream work. Alternatively we could suggest comaintaining to him and then one of us could get the packages through review, while he concentrates on improving it upstream.
Ok. Do you want to followup within the package review at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233946. I got interested enough to build this package locally and run it. It sort of connected once and has been continuously crashing everytime after that.
The upstream binary is more recent and more stable but I haven't managed to connect in that either which might be a network firewall block which I don't administrate. Upstream stills call the Linux client "alpha" so I am not too sure about pushing that in.
Hmm I didn't know it was _that_ bad. I'm not a second life user, I just thought having the client in F-8 and the games spin would be cool. In that case I guesswe better wait till F-9.
Regards,
Hans
Hans de Goede wrote:
Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown when the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu.
The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file)
I think this would way too annoying. I just want to provide a gentle nag. Not to frustrate users every time they try to launch 3D games which I suspect will happen if we modify all the related menu entries to launch a dialog box.
Hmm I didn't know it was _that_ bad. I'm not a second life user, I just thought having the client in F-8 and the games spin would be cool. In that case I guesswe better wait till F-9.
I am not a second life user either. I was basically checking it out when I began planning on a games spin and spend a few weeks researching the available ones. You might want to try out the client yourself. Doesn't take more than a few mins to create a user. I plan to write a few reviews shortly when I get more time.
Rahul
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown when the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu.
The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file)
I think this would way too annoying. I just want to provide a gentle nag. Not to frustrate users every time they try to launch 3D games which I suspect will happen if we modify all the related menu entries to launch a dialog box.
Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is not available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the game) the user would get a slide show (software rendering) and navigating a menu with the mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be quite annoying.
Alternatives are welcome. Notice that my plan means that users of the other spins who install an opengl game through yum will get the same dialog if they don't have direct rendering available. I believe this is a feature, but if others disagree then please say so, then I won't spend time on this.
Regards,
Hans
Hans de Goede wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown when the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu.
The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file)
I think this would way too annoying. I just want to provide a gentle nag. Not to frustrate users every time they try to launch 3D games which I suspect will happen if we modify all the related menu entries to launch a dialog box.
Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is not available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the game) the user would get a slide show (software rendering) and navigating a menu with the mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be quite annoying.
Here is a alternative solution:
Login time, check whether DRI is enabled and popup a message "Your system does not have open accelerated 3D drivers available or installed on your system. This means that you will not able to play 3D games efficiently. Click here for more information" and point them to a wiki link in Fedora with more information.
Have a check box below saying "Don't remind me, next time" or just bring this dialog box up only on first login for a new user.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown when the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu.
The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file)
I think this would way too annoying. I just want to provide a gentle nag. Not to frustrate users every time they try to launch 3D games which I suspect will happen if we modify all the related menu entries to launch a dialog box.
Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is not available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the game) the user would get a slide show (software rendering) and navigating a menu with the mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be quite annoying.
Here is a alternative solution:
Login time, check whether DRI is enabled and popup a message "Your system does not have open accelerated 3D drivers available or installed on your system. This means that you will not able to play 3D games efficiently. Click here for more information" and point them to a wiki link in Fedora with more information.
Have a check box below saying "Don't remind me, next time" or just bring this dialog box up only on first login for a new user.
The user then still won't know which games use opengl and which games he/she thus shouldn't try to start. Starting one of them will result in a slide show with very poor response to mouse keyboard events making it hard to quit the game again. This is IMHO not user friendly, so I believe its better to check for dri when a game is launched and refuse to launch, with a message dialog explaining why.
Regards,
Hans
On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 09:13 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote:
Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is not available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the game) the user would get a slide show (software rendering) and navigating a menu with the mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be quite annoying.
Alternatives are welcome. Notice that my plan means that users of the other spins who install an opengl game through yum will get the same dialog if they don't have direct rendering available. I believe this is a feature, but if others disagree then please say so, then I won't spend time on this.
IMHO this is a very good idea and should be a distro-wide feature. If DRI is not available the user should be informed in an understandable manner and possibly linked to a wiki page for more information, rather than mysteriously failing or running real slow. The latter case usually results in "Fedora sux cuz its slow" threads in the forums.
Also consider the case of a user with supported hardware, but the driver just hasn't initialized DRI properly for whatever reason. Fast user switching, for one, seems to result in only the first session logged in getting DRI, later sessions are SOL.
Callum Lerwick wrote:
On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 09:13 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote:
Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is not available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the game) the user would get a slide show (software rendering) and navigating a menu with the mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be quite annoying.
Alternatives are welcome. Notice that my plan means that users of the other spins who install an opengl game through yum will get the same dialog if they don't have direct rendering available. I believe this is a feature, but if others disagree then please say so, then I won't spend time on this.
IMHO this is a very good idea and should be a distro-wide feature. If DRI is not available the user should be informed in an understandable manner and possibly linked to a wiki page for more information, rather than mysteriously failing or running real slow. The latter case usually results in "Fedora sux cuz its slow" threads in the forums.
Also consider the case of a user with supported hardware, but the driver just hasn't initialized DRI properly for whatever reason. Fast user switching, for one, seems to result in only the first session logged in getting DRI, later sessions are SOL.
Okay, I've written a small handy utility script for this and put it in a separate package, so that we don't get a zillion copies of the script that need updating when changes are needed.
It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571
The included README explains how to use it in your packages.
Regards,
Hans
Hans de Goede wrote:
Okay, I've written a small handy utility script for this and put it in a separate package, so that we don't get a zillion copies of the script that need updating when changes are needed.
It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571
The included README explains how to use it in your packages.
I just build this package and checked it out. Looks like you need to fix some typos. You might want to announce this more widely when this package is in the repository.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
Okay, I've written a small handy utility script for this and put it in a separate package, so that we don't get a zillion copies of the script that need updating when changes are needed.
It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571
The included README explains how to use it in your packages.
I just build this package and checked it out. Looks like you need to fix some typos.
Thanks for checking it out, feedback with regard to the typos much appreciated, English isn't my first language.
You might want to announce this more widely when this package is in the repository.
Erm, more widely then the games mailinglist?
Regards,
Hans
Hans de Goede wrote:
Thanks for checking it out, feedback with regard to the typos much appreciated, English isn't my first language.
Neither it is mine for that matter.
"Your system currently is not capabable of hardware accellerated 3D. Therefor $GAME cannot run."
capable and accelerated is misspelled.
"Usually the cause of this error is that there are no Free Software drivers for your graphicscard, please contact your graphicscard manufacturer and kindly ask them to provide Free Software support for your card."
You need space in between graphics and card. Also it might be better to point to a wiki page.
You might want to announce this more widely when this package is in the repository.
Erm, more widely then the games mailinglist?
Yeah unless all the game packagers are in this list and active watching discussions, dropping them a mail tends to get better attention. Despite all the activity on the license tag, only about 50% have fixed their packages for example. I guess the traffic is getting too much for people to keep track of all the discussions.
Also I noticed that you published your scripts under public domain. Atleast in the US, it is better to use a permissive license like MIT X11 license or 2 clause BSD license because they carry a warranty and avoid personal liability without causing any licensing issues. Just FYI.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
Thanks for checking it out, feedback with regard to the typos much appreciated, English isn't my first language.
Neither it is mine for that matter.
"Your system currently is not capabable of hardware accellerated 3D. Therefor $GAME cannot run."
capable and accelerated is misspelled.
"Usually the cause of this error is that there are no Free Software drivers for your graphicscard, please contact your graphicscard manufacturer and kindly ask them to provide Free Software support for your card."
You need space in between graphics and card. Also it might be better to point to a wiki page.
Thanks I'll make a -2 release with these spelling issues corrected and import that (the review just got approved).
About the wiki link, I thought about that, but where should it link to?
Regards,
Hans
Hans de Goede wrote:
Thanks I'll make a -2 release with these spelling issues corrected and import that (the review just got approved).
About the wiki link, I thought about that, but where should it link to?
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Games/Drivers? That's similar to what we planning to do with codec buddy FYI.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
Thanks I'll make a -2 release with these spelling issues corrected and import that (the review just got approved).
About the wiki link, I thought about that, but where should it link to?
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Games/Drivers? That's similar to what we planning to do with codec buddy FYI.
Hmm,
I was kinda hoping there would something that already existed to point to, I'll just leave it linkless for now then.
Regards,
Hans
Hans de Goede wrote:
It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571
The included README explains how to use it in your packages.
Another thing, is this dialog box going to popup before the game gets launched and would the end user have the choice of whether or not to launch and the game?
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Hans de Goede wrote:
It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571
The included README explains how to use it in your packages.
Another thing, is this dialog box going to popup before the game gets launched and would the end user have the choice of whether or not to launch and the game?
Yes it gets popped up, and no currently the user does not get a choice, if there is no direct rendering the game will not launch.
This can be changed or even made configurable on a per game basis, but I see little use in this. If there is no DRI _at_all_, then OpenGL apps will suck, they will suck to the point of being unusable. Notice that if there is any DRI, even if its s3 savage pseudo accelerated 3d, the game will launch just fine.
Regards,
Hans
On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 08:39 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote:
Ok. Do you want to followup within the package review at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233946. I got interested enough to build this package locally and run it. It sort of connected once and has been continuously crashing everytime after that.
The upstream binary is more recent and more stable but I haven't managed to connect in that either which might be a network firewall block which I don't administrate. Upstream stills call the Linux client "alpha" so I am not too sure about pushing that in.
Hmm I didn't know it was _that_ bad. I'm not a second life user, I just thought having the client in F-8 and the games spin would be cool. In that case I guesswe better wait till F-9.
I discovered some buffer under/overflows in OpenJPEG (Big nasty overrun in the vectorization patch, actually) which seemed to be the source of most of the crashyness. SL runs real stable for me now. :) Yes, I've been busy trying to work things upstream (and busy with life) so I've been rather distracted from packaging. I need to get a new OpenJPEG package out, I think I got SVN snapshots working the way the packaging guidelines want.
Note that upstream considers the Linux build "alpha" as long as it's not feature complete. Video streaming support via gstreamer was recently added, which was the last missing feature... until they added voice support. Which the Linux client is still missing. Sigh. (Voice support is implemented via a binary blob and uses a patent encumbered codec, so even if the Linux version of the binary blob turns up, Fedora users are still SOL until that changes. Trust me, I've chewed out upstream about this.)
Callum Lerwick wrote: Sigh. (Voice support
is implemented via a binary blob and uses a patent encumbered codec, so even if the Linux version of the binary blob turns up, Fedora users are still SOL until that changes. Trust me, I've chewed out upstream about this.)
(Thanks for the status info)
What has been their response on the codec issue?
Rahul
On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 22:10 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
(Thanks for the status info)
What has been their response on the codec issue?
"NDA prevents us from saying anything about it" basically.
They can't even tell me what the hangup really is. It appears the majority of the thing is open source libraries and standard SIP stuff, so seems to me they could just drop in Speex instead of Siren14 and everything would be swell. But... they can't comment on this.
I should note the binary blob is actually a completely independent executable from the SL client, the SL client controls it through a TCP socket, it makes its own connections to Vivox's servers and even outputs its own audio. (apparently using OpenAL...) So the viewer itself is still good for Fedora, we just don't get voice. (If you're really desperate to get voice you can run the daemon with Wine, or since its TCP, you can even run the voice daemon in VMware or a completely separate physical box...)
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Do we want a special theme for the games spin? We could request the art team to be creative and come up with a distinctive background, look and feel.
I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized version of the default background but still based on the default background.
Nicu Buculei wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Do we want a special theme for the games spin? We could request the art team to be creative and come up with a distinctive background, look and feel.
I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized version of the default background but still based on the default background.
Well the KDE and GNOME spins of Fedora have already different themes. I don't see why a games spin can't have a separate look and feel too. I am just of the opinion that spins shouldn't be just a collection of packages and shouldn't acquire their own "personality" on some small but highly visible changes.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized version of the default background but still based on the default background.
Well the KDE and GNOME spins of Fedora have already different themes. I don't see why a games spin can't have a separate look and feel too. I am just of the opinion that spins shouldn't be just a collection of packages and shouldn't acquire their own "personality" on some small but highly visible changes.
A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not interested working on.
On 9/20/07, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized version of the default background but still based on the default background.
Well the KDE and GNOME spins of Fedora have already different themes. I don't see why a games spin can't have a separate look and feel too. I am just of the opinion that spins shouldn't be just a collection of packages and shouldn't acquire their own "personality" on some small but highly visible changes.
A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not interested working on.
I havn't seen the default theme for Fedora 8, but if the Fedora artwork team can tweak it slightly to give a games feel, I think that would be cool. I would not be in favor of a completely different theme, but would support slight tweaks to the main theme.
Nicu Buculei wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized version of the default background but still based on the default background.
Well the KDE and GNOME spins of Fedora have already different themes. I don't see why a games spin can't have a separate look and feel too. I am just of the opinion that spins shouldn't be just a collection of packages and shouldn't acquire their own "personality" on some small but highly visible changes.
A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not interested working on.
Maybe not to such extend but would you be interested in working on a games flavor of infinity theme instead? I don't have much of an idea how that would look like though. I have seen games related websites looks dark and have contrasting colors and you have a taste for that. A basic desktop background and maybe a slightly different GDM theme can make quite a difference.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not interested working on.
Maybe not to such extend but would you be interested in working on a games flavor of infinity theme instead? I don't have much of an idea how that would look like though. I have seen games related websites looks dark and have contrasting colors and you have a taste for that. A basic desktop background and maybe a slightly different GDM theme can make quite a difference.
My current vision (it may change easily) is something like this: I believe everyone know the "Tux with Quake rocket launcher" image, is very common on the web - http://img.hexus.net/v2/features/linuxgaming/penguincomputing.jpg
I would like to have a general mascot for Fedora (we have quite a few proposals, but no one emerged) and a derivative of this for Fedora Games, just in the style of "Tux with Quake rocket launcher" so the graphics for the games spin could be like the default graphics with that personalized mascot added in a meaningful way.
Nicu Buculei wrote:
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Nicu Buculei wrote:
A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not interested working on.
Maybe not to such extend but would you be interested in working on a games flavor of infinity theme instead? I don't have much of an idea how that would look like though. I have seen games related websites looks dark and have contrasting colors and you have a taste for that. A basic desktop background and maybe a slightly different GDM theme can make quite a difference.
My current vision (it may change easily) is something like this: I believe everyone know the "Tux with Quake rocket launcher" image, is very common on the web - http://img.hexus.net/v2/features/linuxgaming/penguincomputing.jpg
I would like to have a general mascot for Fedora (we have quite a few proposals, but no one emerged) and a derivative of this for Fedora Games, just in the style of "Tux with Quake rocket launcher" so the graphics for the games spin could be like the default graphics with that personalized mascot added in a meaningful way.
A mascot is something I find desirable too if only to get the freedom to be creative with variants more than the Fedora logo but I was looking for something that can be done for test 3 or atleast the general release of Fedora 8 and the mascot is unlikely to be decided by then.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
A mascot is something I find desirable too if only to get the freedom to be creative with variants more than the Fedora logo but I was looking for something that can be done for test 3 or atleast the general release of Fedora 8 and the mascot is unlikely to be decided by then.
Considering the lack of enthusiasm about it, we may never have a mascot. But one can dream right? One of my "dreams" is about a "skin" for a game such as SuperTux where the main character is replaced with the Fedora mascot.
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Callum Lerwick -
Christopher Stone -
Hans de Goede -
Nicu Buculei -
Rahul Sundaram