4:11 p.m.
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Summary: Idea for setting individual fallback language
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Summary: Idea for setting individual fallback language
Product: Fedora
Version: rawhide
Platform: All
OS/Version: Linux
Status: NEW
Severity: medium
Priority: low
Component: system-config-language
AssignedTo: psatpute(a)redhat.com
ReportedBy: ncfiedler(a)fedoraproject.org
QAContact: extras-qa(a)fedoraproject.org
CC: psatpute(a)redhat.com,
i18n-bugs(a)lists.fedoraproject.org, nkumar(a)redhat.com
Classification: Fedora
Description of problem:
system-config-language only sets one language, but does not give the user the
possibility to set an individual fallback language. But this would be
appreciated not to fall back to English per default. In the case of Low German
(nds) for example it does not make any sense to fallback to English but to
German (de).
An example for this functionality could be ubuntus language-selector for GNOME
desktops. (https://launchpad.net/language-selector)
Version-Release number of selected component (if applicable):
How reproducible:
Steps to Reproduce:
1.
2.
3.
Actual results:
Expected results:
It would be nice, if system-config-language would be able to set individual
fallback languages. (compare ubuntus language-selector)
Additional info:
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1:48 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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Pravin Satpute <psatpute(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AssignedTo|psatpute(a)redhat.com |nkumar(a)redhat.com
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12:45 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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Jens Petersen <petersen(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keywords| |FutureFeature, i18n
--- Comment #1 from Jens Petersen <petersen(a)redhat.com> 2010-08-19 01:45:16 EDT ---
Some thoughts:
- anaconda/gdm/system-config-language could set fallback
for gettext apps by setting LANGUAGE
- or maybe glibc could be improved to handle this fallback.
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5:35 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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Naveen Kumar <nkumar(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |iarlyy(a)gmail.com,
| |jonathan(a)jonmasters.org,
| |notting(a)redhat.com,
| |plautrba(a)redhat.com
Component|system-config-language |initscripts
AssignedTo|nkumar(a)redhat.com |notting(a)redhat.com
--- Comment #2 from Naveen Kumar <nkumar(a)redhat.com> 2010-10-05 06:35:15 EDT ---
After a lot of discussion within i18n, we came to the conclusion that this
could be handled better by initscripts and more specifically by lang.sh. So
reassigning the bug to initscripts. We also came up with a mechanism to do that
using lang.sh. I will submit that as a patch after this comment. I hope it gets
accepted.
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5:37 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
--- Comment #3 from Naveen Kumar <nkumar(a)redhat.com> 2010-10-05 06:37:23 EDT ---
Created attachment 451633
--> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=451633
patch for initscripts language-fallback
the patch should apply to a pkg git checkout
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7 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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--- Comment #4 from ncfiedler(a)fedoraproject.org 2010-10-05 08:00:12 EDT ---
Is it possible, that this patch itself already includes that Low German
fallback to German (nds to de) like nds_DE:de_DE ?
At the moment the patch actually does not mention Low German (nds_DE) at all.
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10:51 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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--- Comment #5 from Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> 2010-10-05 11:51:59 EDT
---
Some comments...
1) Having fallbacks listed that are just an identity transformation is
wasteful; eliding those is best
2) Fallbacks like:
ar_AE ar_AE:ar_SA
ar_BH ar_BH:ar_SA
ar_DZ ar_DZ:ar_SA
ar_EG ar_EG:ar_SA
ar_IN ar_IN:ar_SA:en_IN
ar_IQ ar_IQ:ar_SA
ar_JO ar_JO:ar_SA
ar_KW ar_KW:ar_SA
ar_LB ar_LB:ar_SA
ar_LY ar_LY:ar_SA
ar_MA ar_MA:ar_SA
ar_OM ar_OM:ar_SA
ar_QA ar_QA:ar_SA
ar_SA ar_SA:ar_SA
ar_SD ar_SD:ar_SA
ar_SY ar_SY:ar_SA
ar_TN ar_TN:ar_SA
ar_YE ar_YE:ar_SA
seem pointless, given that *nothing* ships country-specific Arabic
translations.
The approach could have some use, but I'm very concerned about the data
population for it, and how it would stay maintained.
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11:06 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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--- Comment #6 from ncfiedler(a)fedoraproject.org 2010-10-05 12:06:38 EDT ---
Ok, so whats with just implementing really needfull/ usefull fallbacks per
default? Especially for Low German (nds) it doesnt make sense in any case to
fallback to English, but (normal) German (de).
Every Low German user will /has to set this fallback manually, because every
Low German speaker naturally can speak German, but probably not English.
The only exception are people, who speak a dialect of Low German, called
Plautdietsch. But this is not the same as the translations I do for Low German.
These are called Plattdeutsch, Plattdüütsch or Niederdeutsch.
So you see, an automated fallback would be appreciated, if one fix fallback
will not cause a data-size explosion.
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11:09 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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--- Comment #7 from ncfiedler(a)fedoraproject.org 2010-10-05 12:09:27 EDT ---
So and so, I would like to see an entry for Low German (nds_DE) in that list.
However an automated fallback can be in it or not.
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12:49 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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--- Comment #8 from Naveen Kumar <nkumar(a)redhat.com> 2010-10-06 01:49:45 EDT ---
(In reply to comment #5)
Some comments...
1) Having fallbacks listed that are just an identity transformation is
wasteful; eliding those is best
I agree to that. These can be removed...
2) Fallbacks like:
ar_AE ar_AE:ar_SA
ar_BH ar_BH:ar_SA
.................
.................
ar_SY ar_SY:ar_SA
ar_TN ar_TN:ar_SA
ar_YE ar_YE:ar_SA
seem pointless, given that *nothing* ships country-specific Arabic
translations.
I agree and these can be removed. only "ar" or "ar_SA" could exist.
The approach could have some use, but I'm very concerned about the data
population for it, and how it would stay maintained.
The language fallback order can be requested by individual language teams.
Hence an entry could be introduced through a bug/feature request. Or initially
one bulk entry for fallback orders which are apparent, which could later be
moderated through request.
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3:50 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] Idea for setting individual fallback language
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--- Comment #9 from Naveen Kumar <nkumar(a)redhat.com> 2010-10-06 04:50:00 EDT ---
Created attachment 451834
--> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=451834
modified patch for initscripts language-fallback
the patch should apply to a pkg git checkout
Changelog
- modified language-fallback
- add nds_DE
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4:43 a.m.
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Naveen Kumar <nkumar(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachment #451834|modified patch for |initscripts-9.21-3-LANGUAGE
description|initscripts |-fallback.patch
|language-fallback |
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--- Comment #10 from Jens Petersen <petersen(a)redhat.com> 2010-10-06 05:49:20 EDT
---
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=451834
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11:17 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
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Jens Petersen <petersen(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary|Idea for setting individual |[patch] locale fallback for
|fallback language |LANGUAGE
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11:19 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
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--- Comment #11 from Jens Petersen <petersen(a)redhat.com> 2010-12-09 00:19:58 EST
---
Any chance of including this in F15? :)
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12:13 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
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--- Comment #12 from Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> 2010-12-09 13:13:39 EST
---
My concern is I'd really prefer this be some sort of standard upstream data
source (like iso-codes).
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New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
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--- Comment #13 from Bill Nottingham <notting(a)redhat.com> 2010-12-09 13:43:39 EST
---
See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=636290 for a similar usage
case.
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New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
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Jens Petersen <petersen(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |dwayne(a)translate.org.za
--- Comment #14 from Jens Petersen <petersen(a)redhat.com> 2010-12-21 00:58:47 EST
---
*** Bug 246325 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
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10:50 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Abel Cheung <abelcheung(a)gmail.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |abelcheung(a)gmail.com
--- Comment #15 from Abel Cheung <abelcheung(a)gmail.com> ---
(In reply to comment #12)
My concern is I'd really prefer this be some sort of standard
upstream data
source (like iso-codes).
I beg to differ partially. Personally I'd also hope this fallback list under
maintenance of single entity and then make it usable across all distro if
somebody push it hard enough; but the nature of such language fallback is for
showing how much i18n love the distro has for local users of various languages,
instead of being some international standardization effort.
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7:27 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |awilliam(a)redhat.com
--- Comment #16 from Adam Williamson <awilliam(a)redhat.com> ---
Bill - the revival of this bug is due to
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=872282 , where we've found another
obvious case, Chinese-speaking locales.
There are details in that bug, but to give a summary, there are four official
Chinese locales: zh_CN (China itself, the People's Republic), zh_SG
(Singapore), zh_TW (Taiwan/ROC), zh_HK (Hong Kong SAR).
We also noted that the case really exists in English too, except we don't
notice it, because the _default_ fallback is to English (well, C, which in
practice is English). So if you set en_UK and whatever you're reading doesn't
have a 'UK English' translation, you get English anyway.
Anyhow, the Chinese case is much like the Arabian or Low German cases or UK
English vs. U.S. English. There's really only two major variants of written
Chinese, traditional and simplified. China and Chinese-speaking Singaporeans
usually use simplified, and Hong Kong and Taiwan usually use traditional. zh_CN
is used as the universal 'simplified Chinese' locale - so Singaporean users
usually use the zh_CN locale - and Taiwan is used as the universal 'traditional
Chinese' locale - so HK users usually use the zh_TW locale. Translations
usually don't exist for the zh_HK and zh_SG locales. In the past we actually
labelled zh_CN as 'Chinese (Simplifed)' and zh_TW as 'Chinese
(Traditional)' in
the installer, with no reference to the actual place, and only offered those
choices.
Still, there may be other locale stuff that differs between Hong Kong and
Taiwan and between Singapore and China, and there _are_ a few cases where
written usage differs between the locales, so it would be good if we could
allow users to pick the actual place they live, and if they pick Hong Kong or
Singapore, use the locale info for those places and translations if actually
available, but fall back on zh_TW or zh_CN (respectively) translations if
'native' translations aren't available. Setting the LANGUAGE variable would
allow this.
It almost goes without saying, of course, that Chinese-speaking people are at
least _potentially_ a gigantic user base, so covering their use cases well
would be a good move.
I don't know if anything's changed in terms of there being a central canonical
upstream reference for providing the necessary relationship data in the last
couple of years, but it may be worth checking, and if there isn't, even trying
to kickstart one. Ubuntu is still using the LANGUAGE var, apparently, so
they're presumably maintaining the data somewhere.
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6:18 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
Product: Fedora
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
--- Comment #17 from Mathieu Bridon <bochecha(a)fedoraproject.org> ---
(In reply to comment #16)
I don't know if anything's changed in terms of there being a
central
canonical upstream reference for providing the necessary relationship data
in the last couple of years, but it may be worth checking, and if there
isn't, even trying to kickstart one. Ubuntu is still using the LANGUAGE var,
apparently, so they're presumably maintaining the data somewhere.
Didn't systemd take over this with localed?
This file gets set by localectl:
# cat /etc/locale.conf
LANG=en_HK.utf8
It even allows specifying the values following the fallback syntax from above:
# localectl set-locale "LANG=en_HK.utf8:en_GB.utf8"
# cat /etc/locale.conf
LANG=en_HK.utf8:en_GB.utf8
I'm not sure whether or not this works though...
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5:29 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
Product: Fedora
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Harald Hoyer <harald(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |harald(a)redhat.com
--- Comment #18 from Harald Hoyer <harald(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to comment #17)
(In reply to comment #16)
> I don't know if anything's changed in terms of there being a central
> canonical upstream reference for providing the necessary relationship data
> in the last couple of years, but it may be worth checking, and if there
> isn't, even trying to kickstart one. Ubuntu is still using the LANGUAGE var,
> apparently, so they're presumably maintaining the data somewhere.
Didn't systemd take over this with localed?
This file gets set by localectl:
# cat /etc/locale.conf
LANG=en_HK.utf8
It even allows specifying the values following the fallback syntax from
above:
# localectl set-locale "LANG=en_HK.utf8:en_GB.utf8"
# cat /etc/locale.conf
LANG=en_HK.utf8:en_GB.utf8
I'm not sure whether or not this works though...
yes, initscripts is not involved in this anymore.
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8:53 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
Product: Fedora
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Lukáš Nykrýn <lnykryn(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |johannbg(a)gmail.com,
| |lnykryn(a)redhat.com,
| |metherid(a)gmail.com,
| |msekleta(a)redhat.com,
| |systemd-maint(a)redhat.com,
| |vpavlin(a)redhat.com,
| |zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl
Component|initscripts |systemd
Assignee|notting(a)redhat.com |systemd-maint(a)redhat.com
--- Comment #19 from Lukáš Nykrýn <lnykryn(a)redhat.com> ---
This has to do nothing with initscripts anymore. Maybe we can do something with
it in systemd.
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2:34 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
--- Comment #20 from Mike FABIAN <mfabian(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to Mathieu Bridon from comment #17)
(In reply to comment #16)
> I don't know if anything's changed in terms of there being a central
> canonical upstream reference for providing the necessary relationship data
> in the last couple of years, but it may be worth checking, and if there
> isn't, even trying to kickstart one. Ubuntu is still using the LANGUAGE var,
> apparently, so they're presumably maintaining the data somewhere.
Didn't systemd take over this with localed?
This file gets set by localectl:
# cat /etc/locale.conf
LANG=en_HK.utf8
It even allows specifying the values following the fallback syntax from
above:
# localectl set-locale "LANG=en_HK.utf8:en_GB.utf8"
# cat /etc/locale.conf
LANG=en_HK.utf8:en_GB.utf8
I'm not sure whether or not this works though...
No, that does *not* work!:
mfabian@ari:~
$ LANG=en_HK.utf8:en_GB.utf8 locale charmap
locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory
locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory
locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory
ANSI_X3.4-1968
mfabian@ari:~
$
The correct way to specify a translation fallback from en_HK to en_GB is:
$ LANGUAGE=en_HK:en_GB LANG=en_HK.UTF-8 locale charmap
UTF-8
mfabian@ari:~
$
(assuming all LC_* variables are unset here)
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5:19 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assignee|systemd-maint(a)redhat.com |zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl
--- Comment #21 from Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> ---
Let's revive this thread...
tl;dr: I propose to add a new D-Bus method. Would this work for gnome/other
desktops and other interested parties?
localectl and localed allow setting multiple values for LANGUAGE. We could do
that, but I don't think that the current interface should be modified to
automatically expand language tags. After all, I someone tells localectl to set
LANGUAGE=x localed should obey. Instead, we could move the logic to all
consumers of the api, e.g. gnome-control-center, and have those consumers
append the fallbacks themselves. I don't like this because it would require
signficant extension in every consumer. So in the end I think this should be
implemented in localed, but as a new d-bus method:
org.freedesktop.locale1.SetLocaleWithFallback(
in as locale,
in b add_fallback,
in b user_interaction);
This would be like SetLocale, but if LANGUAGE is set, it would be extended with
fallback from a table carried by systemd-localed. If LANG was set, but not
LANGUAGE, LANGUAGE including fallbacks would be added.
All the clients would have to be modified. In case of localectl this would be
relatively simple patch to add --no-fallback and to flip set-locale to use
SetLocaleWithFallback by default, and SetLocale with the option.
Higher level like desktop environments would simply switch over to
SetLocaleWithFallback.
I'd be happy to implement this scheme, but I'd like to have some confirmation
that this would be useful from interested/knowledgeable people.
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11:23 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
--- Comment #22 from Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> ---
Looking at the overwhelming response, I think that people don't actually care
that much and I was overcomplicating things. So I'll modify
org.freedesktop.locale1.SetLocale() to provide LANGUAGE including fallbacks if
it was not provided in the args specified by the caller.
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11:57 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachment #451633|0 |1
is obsolete| |
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8:20 a.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Status|NEW |POST
--- Comment #23 from Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> ---
Applied upstream, will be in systemd 219.
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3:42 p.m.
New subject: [Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 624158] [patch] locale fallback for LANGUAGE
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Status|POST |CLOSED
Fixed In Version| |systemd-219-3.fc22
Resolution|--- |RAWHIDE
Last Closed| |2015-02-18 16:42:10
--- Comment #24 from Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek <zbyszek(a)in.waw.pl> ---
Table of fallbacks is maintained upstream at
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd/tree/src/locale/language-fall....
We intend to import the table from Ubuntu, but this hasn't happened yet. Bug
can be filed here or at freedesktop.org to add new languages or change the
table.
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