What is the easiest way to find an Ambassador near to oneself ?

[sankarshan]

We seem to be getting a few of such questions on a regular basis -
what is the easiest means to obtain an answer for this ?

~sankarshan

[susmit shannigrahi]

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:31 AM, sankarshan wrote:
> We seem to be getting a few of such questions on a regular basis -
> what is the easiest means to obtain an answer for this ?

There is no such way.

We have a map here[1] made specifically for this purpose, but people
don't care to update their locations. So far 19 out of over hundred
Indian Ambassadors has updated their location.

I started to doubt if most of the people are at all serious about the
position they hold.

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/membership-map/

[dilip khanolkar]

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:51 AM, susmit
shannigrahi wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:31 AM, sankarshan wrote:
> > We seem to be getting a few of such questions on a regular basis -
> > what is the easiest means to obtain an answer for this ?
>
> There is no such way.
>
> We have a map here[1] made specifically for this purpose, but people
> don't care to update their locations. So far 19 out of over hundred
> Indian Ambassadors has updated their location.
>
> I started to doubt if most of the people are at all serious about the
> position they hold.
>
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/membership-map/
>
> --
> Regards,
> Susmit.
>
> =============================================
> ssh
> 0x86DD170A
> http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit
> =============================================
>
> Fedora-india mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-india

I am sure about one thing if people cannot update there locations even
after giving N number of locations that surely means they are just not
any more interested in the project or even the position they hold

[Aditya Patawari]

I agree with susmit and dilip, but what I don't understand is why
ambassadors have not marked their locations. I mean what's the point
of being an ambassador if people can't contact you when needed. Can't
we make it mandatory to put up a broad working region, if not the
exact address? I think susmit should look into it.

[dilip khanolkar]

I think every ambassador should look into it.

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Aditya Patawari wrote:
> I agree with susmit and dilip, but what I don't understand is why
> ambassadors have not marked their locations. I mean what's the point
> of being an ambassador if people can't contact you when needed. Can't
> we make it mandatory to put up a broad working region, if not the
> exact address? I think susmit should look into it.
>
> --
> Aditya Patawari
> http://blog.adityapatawari.com/
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adimania
> Birla Institute of Technology, Mesra
> India
>
> Fedora-india mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-india

[sankarshan]

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:51 AM, susmit
shannigrahi wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:31 AM, sankarshan wrote:
> > We seem to be getting a few of such questions on a regular basis -
> > what is the easiest means to obtain an answer for this ?
>
> There is no such way.
>
> We have a map here[1] made specifically for this purpose, but people
> don't care to update their locations. So far 19 out of over hundred
> Indian Ambassadors has updated their location.

In an ideal world, I'd look for a way to input a location and, get a
list of Ambassadors nearest to me ordered in priority by location and,
then state etc. What should we do to make that happen ? A sort of
"reach out to the Ambassador near you" kind of application ?

~sankarshan

[susmit shannigrahi]

> In an ideal world, I'd look for a way to input a location and, get a
> list of Ambassadors nearest to me ordered in priority by location and,
> then state etc. What should we do to make that happen ? A sort of
> "reach out to the Ambassador near you" kind of application ?

I shall do it anyway.
Do you think people will reply when contacted?

[sankarshan]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 10:13 AM, susmit
shannigrahi wrote:
> > In an ideal world, I'd look for a way to input a location and, get a
> > list of Ambassadors nearest to me ordered in priority by location and,
> > then state etc. What should we do to make that happen ? A sort of
> > "reach out to the Ambassador near you" kind of application ?
>
> I shall do it anyway.

:) Thanks
> Do you think people will reply when contacted?

If they don't, that is always a good reason to review their Ambassador role.

~sankarshan

[dilip khanolkar]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 10:24 AM, sankarshan wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 10:13 AM, susmit
> shannigrahi wrote:
> > > In an ideal world, I'd look for a way to input a location and, get a
> > > list of Ambassadors nearest to me ordered in priority by location and,
> > > then state etc. What should we do to make that happen ? A sort of
> > > "reach out to the Ambassador near you" kind of application ?
> >
> > I shall do it anyway.
>
> :) Thanks
> > Do you think people will reply when contacted?
>
> If they don't, that is always a good reason to review their Ambassador role.
>
> ~sankarshan
>
> --
> http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published
> http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science
> http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work
>
> Sent from Pune, MH, India
>
> Fedora-india mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-india

I agree to sankarshan. Both the points are perfect.

[Aditya Patawari]

I bet even if we mail "If you are an ambassador then reply" to mailing
list most of the ambassadors won't even reply implying they don't even
look at the mails. This can be a small test for start.

[dilip khanolkar]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Aditya Patawari wrote:
> I bet even if we mail "If you are an ambassador then reply" to mailing
> list most of the ambassadors won't even reply implying they don't even
> look at the mails. This can be a small test for start.

I can bet many ambassadors have put the list email id in the spam box.

[Ankur Sinha]

On Sun, 2009-07-26 at 11:46 +0530, dilip khanolkar wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Aditya Patawari wrote:
> > I bet even if we mail "If you are an ambassador then reply" to mailing
> > list most of the ambassadors won't even reply implying they don't even
> > look at the mails. This can be a small test for start.
>
> I can bet many ambassadors have put the list email id in the spam box.

hi,

Whatever, the case might be. If an ambassador is inactive, his name
shouldn't show up on the list.

@ susmit,sankarshan, rahul : thoughts on my *long* mail? can anything be
done to increase accountability?

[Amit Pundir]

________________________________
From: Aditya Patawari 
To: [e-mail]
Sent: Sunday, 26 July, 2009 11:39:19 AM
Subject: Re: [fedora-india] What is the easiest way to find an Ambassador near to oneself ?
> I bet even if we mail "If you are an ambassador then reply" to mailing
> list most of the ambassadors won't even reply implying they don't even
> look at the mails. This can be a small test for start.

but last time lot of ambassadors responded to the mail [1]

[susmit shannigrahi]

> but last time lot of ambassadors responded to the mail [1]

That was send personally. :)

[Ankur Sinha]

On Sun, 2009-07-26 at 12:05 +0530, susmit shannigrahi wrote:
> > but last time lot of ambassadors responded to the mail [1]
>
> That was send personally. :)

hi,

how many of them do you see active susmit, offhand figure? even an
approx fraction would do?

[Aditya Patawari]

Retry sending these mails. Even if we are able to remove 10 inactive
ones it will be good for us. Additionally we can ask to put their
location on fedora map as a compulsory step for continuing as an
ambassador

[dilip khanolkar]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Aditya Patawari wrote:
> Retry sending these mails. Even if we are able to remove 10 inactive
> ones it will be good for us.

"Additionally we can ask to put their
 location on fedora map as a compulsory step for continuing as an
 ambassador "

I agree to that, that should be a compulsory step.No exclusions should be there

[susmit shannigrahi]

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Aditya Patawari wrote:
> Retry sending these mails. Even if we are able to remove 10 inactive
> ones it will be good for us. Additionally we can ask to put their
> location on fedora map as a compulsory step for continuing as an
> ambassador

Let me put my foot down and say NO.
That was a bad experience, I won't repeat it.

Ankur, what you suggested is (most part of it)  already implemented
with the new membership process. And I am not for making any
assumption for number of active ambassadors. Whoever wants to work,
will do it, if someone does not work will be eventually cleaned up. I
don't think we need to worry  about it. Last week, we cleaned up 210
inactive ambassadors.

[Ankur Sinha]

On Sun, 2009-07-26 at 12:18 +0530, susmit shannigrahi wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Aditya Patawari wrote:
> > Retry sending these mails. Even if we are able to remove 10 inactive
> > ones it will be good for us. Additionally we can ask to put their
> > location on fedora map as a compulsory step for continuing as an
> > ambassador
>
> Let me put my foot down and say NO.
> That was a bad experience, I won't repeat it.

+1

Replying to mails or putting yourself on the map makes no difference
whatsoever . That is no measure of whether a person will work or not.
> Ankur, what you suggested is (most part of it)  already implemented
> with the new membership process. And I am not for making any
> assumption for number of active ambassadors. Whoever wants to work,
> will do it, if someone does not work will be eventually cleaned up. I
> don't think we need to worry  about it. Last week, we cleaned up 210
> inactive ambassadors.

hi,

That's great. I didn't know a clean up was already ongoing. Is there a
wiki page or something for us to know more?

I'd suggest a quarterly "What I'm doing" report as mandatory for all
ambassadors:

All you've got to do is mail to the list, with relevant info and
links(some way of knowing that you are actually up to something).Also,
the work should be Fedora oriented. Just being part of an LUG isn't
enough for a Fedora ambassador.

comments folks?

@ Rangeen etc?

[Rangeen Basu]

On 7/26/09, Ankur Sinha  wrote:
> hi,
>
> That's great. I didn't know a clean up was already ongoing. Is there a
> wiki page or something for us to know more?
>
> I'd suggest a quarterly "What I'm doing" report as mandatory for all
> ambassadors:
>
> All you've got to do is mail to the list, with relevant info and
> links(some way of knowing that you are actually up to something).Also,
> the work should be Fedora oriented. Just being part of an LUG isn't
> enough for a Fedora ambassador.

That's one way but not the only way and neither is it a full proof
one. While reporting being an essential part of ambassador activity,
we can not entirely base the system upon this. A mix of the various
ways is a good choice rather. Active ambassadors must be tracked and a
record should be kept. That IMHO is a must. I have seen a lot of
discussion on this topic but no conclusions yet.
Coming to the end user, I have seen, some days back, someone mailed
every ambassador he could find but one who replied is not from his
location. Rather he helped him find the correct person. Remote
assistance is also an effectivve way. Think of Shakthi and me helping
out Agartala people to organize the event. What is important is to
know what the end user wants and acting accordingly. Still I agree
that locational advantage is good but IMHO it is not a must.
 My mail may sound a little incoherent cause I am having trouble
typing from a cafe keyboard which is givng me heel of a time,
literally.

[Ankur Sinha]

On Sun, 2009-07-26 at 10:13 +0530, susmit shannigrahi wrote:
> > In an ideal world, I'd look for a way to input a location and, get a
> > list of Ambassadors nearest to me ordered in priority by location and,
> > then state etc. What should we do to make that happen ? A sort of
> > "reach out to the Ambassador near you" kind of application ?
>
> I shall do it anyway.
> Do you think people will reply when contacted?

hi,

A lot of ambassadors lack accountability. I suggest a weeding process to
weed ones that are inactive. I know this has been done before, but
housekeeping is periodic, isn't it?

Since becoming a fedora ambassador is a voluntary activity,requiring no
qualification, a lot of folks join up just so they can call themselves
"Fedora Ambassador in India" without paying *any* respect to it's
duties.

As starters,for eg(s),

- IIRC, all ambassadors were required to post on their blogs (every 3
months atleast , I think?) regarding what work they've been doing?
- How many of them even take part in discussions on this list? 
- How many of them are helping spread Fedora or contributing otherwise?

There are a lot of other duties that need to be fulfilled which are
going *ignored*. As a side effect, *we* end up asking questions such
as,"If there are *so many* ambassadors, why isn't the LC program
working??"

Replying to a mail saying "Yes, I'm an ambassador and I've been doing
this recently."(which there is no way of confirming) is not enough to
"qualify" someone as an ambassador. Most folks only wake up to reply to
that one mail so they can keep the "FA in India".

It's better to have a bunch of *ACTIVE* ambassadors rather that 1 huge
pile of inactive ones. At least we'll know whose going to reply and
whose not.

The Ambassadors page should not be open for all to edit. Similar to the
Map page, which generates itself, it should generate itself depending
upon a group such as "Proven ambassador" which will need sponsorship
(like a proven packager). You get a "proven ambassador" if you're
working, else you don't get your name on the list to "show" people.  And
yes, if you stop working, "proven ambassador" sprouts wings and flies
away.

There was a "probation period" for new ambassadors too. I haven't quite
seen it implemented.

[sankarshan]

Here's an example from real-life. I took a fancy to a product from a
consumer goods company, checked up their websites for the nearest
stores, paid a visit to all of them and, found out that this
particular product is not launched for my region at all. That specific
bit of information was available at the larger store who pointed me to
the contact details for their head office. So, the question was - what
about my consumer experience (going round and round without getting
what I wanted) and, did I eventually buy it ?

I am sure that the answer would be fairly obvious.

Firstly, thank you Ankur for taking time out to write the concerns. As
much we have talked about it, having a single mail helps. This is much
appreciated.

On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Ankur Sinha wrote:
> A lot of ambassadors lack accountability. I suggest a weeding process to
> weed ones that are inactive. I know this has been done before, but
> housekeeping is periodic, isn't it?
>
> Since becoming a fedora ambassador is a voluntary activity,requiring no
> qualification, a lot of folks join up just so they can call themselves
> "Fedora Ambassador in India" without paying *any* respect to it's
> duties.

The decision to become a Fedora Ambassador is voluntary, but not for a
moment let us delude ourselves by thinking that it requires no
qualification. An Ambassador is an evangelist and, an evangelist is a
person who knows as much about the product/technology as do the
developers. That takes a lot of doing and, requires investing time. A
self-initiated disciplined approach towards becoming an excellent
Ambassador goes further than an externally imposed discipline coupled
with the stick of censure.

There can be many good reasons as to why a listed Ambassador might
choose to be silent and unresponsive. And, they are all valid reasons.
However, because he/she is an Ambassador, it is their duty to inform
the Ambassadors about their going on leave of absence so that the end
user experience is not hindered.

Susmit has worked hard within the FAmSCo to put in place a system
somewhat similar to what you describe which is aimed at a single
objective - ensuring that the listed Ambassadors are the "active"
Ambassadors. I would like to give the system some time to show
results. It does derive from the "provenpackager" model and, I believe
that it would help us grow a better community of Ambassadors.
> As starters,for eg(s),
> IIRC, all ambassadors were required to post on their blogs (every 3
>
> months atleast , I think?) regarding what work they've been doing?
> How many of them even take part in discussions on this list?
> How many of them are helping spread Fedora or contributing otherwise?

Good catch :) I haven't been that regular myself. I think I should
start putting out on blogs that discussions which are initiating
various good stuff.
> There are a lot of other duties that need to be fulfilled which are
> going *ignored*. As a side effect, *we* end up asking questions such
> as,"If there are *so many* ambassadors, why isn't the LC program
> working??"

The LC program has its own reasons for being the way it is and,
frankly, it has been one issue that we have been trying to grapple
without much apparent success.
> Replying to a mail saying "Yes, I'm an ambassador and I've been doing
> this recently."(which there is no way of confirming) is not enough to
> "qualify" someone as an ambassador. Most folks only wake up to reply to
> that one mail so they can keep the "FA in India".

I tend to follow the thumb-rule that the Ambassadors will not be
fibbing. Or, they will write about what they have been doing actually.
Of course, it turns out that now and then I do get pointed to tall
claims. Not much can be done besides the fact that the specific
Ambassador loses the currency of trust on my books.

The point is, if someone is doing, they are trying to solve problems
and, such things are best done through a discussion with the peer
group.

[snip]
> There was a "probation period" for new ambassadors too. I haven't quite
> seen it implemented.

Ahh ! That means we are doing a good job of implementing it :)

~sankarshan

[Ankit Patel]

sankarshan wrote:
> Here's an example from real-life. I took a fancy to a product from a
> consumer goods company, checked up their websites for the nearest
> stores, paid a visit to all of them and, found out that this
> particular product is not launched for my region at all. That specific
> bit of information was available at the larger store who pointed me to
> the contact details for their head office. So, the question was - what
> about my consumer experience (going round and round without getting
> what I wanted) and, did I eventually buy it ?
>
> I am sure that the answer would be fairly obvious.
>
> Firstly, thank you Ankur for taking time out to write the concerns. As
> much we have talked about it, having a single mail helps. This is much
> appreciated.

[snip]
> > There was a "probation period" for new ambassadors too. I haven't quite
> > seen it implemented.
>
> Ahh ! That means we are doing a good job of implementing it :)
>
> ~sankarshan

Hi,

I am not a Fedora ambassador, but I do contribute to Fedora (and various 
other) localization project since long time. One of the things I have 
learned from my localization experience is to always preserve the 
credits of previous translators. So, their credit is never getting lost 
irrespective of whether they are active currently or not. Similarly, if 
there is a way to preserve the credits of the previous ambassadors on 
the list, would be great I think.

I just figured out the link for the list of Fedora Ambassadors: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/CountryList , which might be 
a good place to list the previous ambassadors as well as current active 
ambassadors. while mapping provided here: 
https://fedoraproject.org/membership-map/ can work for listing active 
ambassadors.

just in case cleanup happens one can think over it...

[sankarshan]

On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Ankitkumar Rameshchandra
Patel wrote:
> I am not a Fedora ambassador, but I do contribute to Fedora (and various
> other) localization project since long time. One of the things I have
> learned from my localization experience is to always preserve the credits of
> previous translators. So, their credit is never getting lost irrespective of
> whether they are active currently or not. Similarly, if there is a way to
> preserve the credits of the previous ambassadors on the list, would be great
> I think.

There was a mail on the Ambassadors list (which I can't find now)
which put the statement below in a much nicer way:

[0] A Fedora Ambassador is an Ambassador-for-life unless he/she does
something that is so completely against the Foundations that we have
to review the situation

[1] Asking Ambassadors whether they wish to be listed as
active/inactive isn't taking credit away

I have been at the periphery of localization and, I guess I could pull
up a somewhat related example - infrequently we see that certain
locales/language teams request a change in leadership asking that a
more active member be entrusted with the responsibilities of getting
things done. Upon review, such requests are generally granted. I'd
guess such a thing happens because the system desires a degree of
accountability.

It is a valid point that you raise, and, I just wanted to make it
clear that this process isn't about erasing credit. I hope that this
illustration together with the anecdote I had provided clears the air.

~sankarshan