Report on Poster Competition

[A. Mani]

Added a brief report at

http://www.ilug-cal.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...

and

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Events/CFD-India%272013#Event_Report

Best

A. Mani

--
A. Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, CLC, CMS
http://www.logicamani.in

[Ankur Sinha]

On Thu, 2013-07-04 at 21:13 +0530, A. Mani wrote:
> Added a brief report at
>
> http://www.ilug-cal.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...
>
> and
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Events/CFD-India%272013#Event_Report

Please send the reports to the ambassadors list also. It'd be nice if
the mail itself had a summary, and your take on how well the event went
or could have gone.

[Kushal Das]

On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 9:13 PM, A. Mani  wrote:
> Added a brief report at
>
> http://www.ilug-cal.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...
>
> and
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Events/CFD-India%272013#Event_Report

So this means from now on Fedora is part of such hate text against India ?
I wonder about sanity of the people who approved this to be part of
Fedora event.

Kushal

On 5 July 2013 11:12, Kushal Das  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 9:13 PM, A. Mani  wrote:
> > Added a brief report at
>
> http://www.ilug-cal.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...
> > and
> >
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Events/CFD-India%272013#Event_Report
>
> So this means from now on Fedora is part of such hate text against India ?
> I wonder about sanity of the people who approved this to be part of
> Fedora event.

I am agree with Kushal.
I strongly against it.  Fedora as a community project should respect each
country, each region and each person.

I have removed abusive text from fedoraproject.org/wiki

With such an announcement text there is no wonder why number of participant
in competition were less than available prizes.

Regards,
Pravin Satpute
> Kushal
> _______________________________________________
> india mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/india

[Joerg Simon]

On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 9:13 PM, A. Mani  wrote:
> Added a brief report at
> http://www.ilug-cal.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...
> and
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Events/CFD-India%272013#Event_Report

All in all it is a very difficult and sensible topic to discuss - even
outside a geek world! Fedora is about Software, but also as a Community
Project it is dealing with people and values and about "doing the right
thing". We especially as Ambassadors have to be careful if a campaign
hurts people feelings with extreme statements - how good your intentions
might be - obviously there are feelings hurt.
And if you are using Fedora to co-brand a political campaign, please put
some extra brain in the preparation.

Why was this event a success? Because of the discussion started? I can
not say if the statements in the report are too extreme or just meant as
a provocation to get a discussion going on. At least - imho - the people
i met in your incredible country and the discussion around IPC section
377 to decriminalise LGBT people in India show a different picture to
the outside world.

cu Joerg

btw. where can i see the winner posters

[steve]

On Friday 05 July 2013 11:12 AM, Kushal Das wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 9:13 PM, A. Mani  wrote:
> > Added a brief report at
> >
> > http://www.ilug-cal.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...
> >
> > and
> >
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Events/CFD-India%272013#Event_Report
>
> So this means from now on Fedora is part of such hate text against India ?

erm, Hate text ? What are you speaking about ? ...ah, you confused it with the 
truth ! Just closing your eyes to the very real problems in this country doesn't 
automatically make them go away. Saying that we live in a great country where 
anything like what the text mentioned just doesn't exist or is false or hateful 
doesn't change jack s**t ! I, for one, applaud the direct 'un-minced' words in 
that announcement. That said ...
> I wonder about sanity of the people who approved this to be part of
> Fedora event.

..ehe, yeah, I think it stretched the shared causes notion a bit too far to 
bunch this with a Fedora event ...maybe having something similar to addressing 
the issue of Women in Tech or for that matter ever LGBT contribution to tech 
would've made sense ...this was a bit too random.

cheers,
- steve

[Anurag]

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:06 PM, steve  wrote:
[snip]
> maybe having something similar to addressing the issue of Women in Tech or
> for that matter ever LGBT contribution to tech would've made sense ...

contribution is contribution. how does lgbt contribution to tech make any
sense at all?

[steve]

On Friday 05 July 2013 07:13 PM, Anurag wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:06 PM, steve <[e-mail]
> > wrote:
> [snip]
> maybe having something similar to addressing the issue of Women in Tech or
> for that matter ever LGBT contribution to tech would've made sense ...
>
> contribution is contribution. how does lgbt contribution to tech make any sense
> at all?

What I intended to convey in the text that you snipped is that LGBT contribution 
to tech would've made more sense in this context (of the event) than just Issues 
around LGBT culture in India at a Fedora event !

cheers,
- steve

[Akshay Vyas]

| erm, Hate text ? What are you speaking about ? ...ah, you confused it
with the truth ! Just closing your eyes to the very real |problems in this
country doesn't automatically make them go away. Saying that we live in a
great country where anything like |what the text mentioned just doesn't
exist or is false or hateful doesn't change jack s**t ! I, for one, applaud
the direct 'un-minced' |words in that announcement. That said ...

Dear Steve

I completely agree with what Kushal Das said, There is a need to rephrase
some part of it....

Lets take some part of report.....

*>India is a backward country*
*India is not a backward country...its developing Country*
*
*
*>**in which majority of the people are illiterate*
*
*
*Literacy** rate in India was 74.04 % in 2011 that leaves **25.96 %
**illiterate...now
is this a majority ?? ** *

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:20 PM, steve  wrote:
> On Friday 05 July 2013 07:13 PM, Anurag wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:06 PM, steve <[e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > [snip]
> > maybe having something similar to addressing the issue of Women in
> >
> > Tech or
> >     for that matter ever LGBT contribution to tech would've made sense ...
> >
> > contribution is contribution. how does lgbt contribution to tech make any
> > sense
> > at all?
>
> What I intended to convey in the text that you snipped is that LGBT
> contribution to tech would've made more sense in this context (of the
> event) than just Issues around LGBT culture in India at a Fedora event !
>
> cheers,
> steve
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> india mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/indiahttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/india

[A. Mani]

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:36 PM, Akshay Vyas  wrote:
> > India is a backward country
>
> India is not a backward country...its developing Country

This is subjective. What is the rank of India in human development
index in the world?
It is lower than that of poor African countries. Only the rich keep
developing themselves.
> > in which majority of the people are illiterate
>
> Literacy rate in India was 74.04 % in 2011 that leaves 25.96 %
> illiterate...now is this a majority ??

The criteria used for this is always disputed.
Literacy should mean a minimum level of education.
But it never gets implemented that way and surveys are extremely
politicized and unreliable.

Best

A. Mani

--
A. Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, CLC, CMS
http://www.logicamani.in

[Suchakra]

To the organizers of this event :

Drifting apart from the general discussion on whether India is such an
evil place (as mentioned in the writeup [1]) or not, I'd say that I do
not see any logic in associating this with Fedora as well as free
software moment. There are many social forums for that and talking to
NGOs, staging protests and creating a social awareness movement might
seriously help if you choose to feel so strongly about it.
> This is subjective. What is the rank of India in human development
> index in the world?
> It is lower than that of poor African countries. Only the rich keep
> developing themselves.

Again, HDI is not of importance here on the list for now. We surely lack
a lot of things and I too agree with that but dragging this in the FOSS
context is not fruitful in my opinion.

What is OK then? How about free software awareness campaigns in schools,
computer education lectures in schools, forming groups and encouraging
young tech-savvy women to be part of WFS-India (a good initiative),
generating awareness in rural environment/rural management about use of
foss tools, OLPC kind of stuff etc is much more valuable and can be
easily related with this.

"poster competition on women's, LGBT and gender-related issues in India
using free software tools as part of the extended Cultural Freedom Day
celebrations" is too long a shot to actually achieve anything valuable.
> > > in which majority of the people are illiterate
> >
> > Literacy rate in India was 74.04 % in 2011 that leaves 25.96 %
> > illiterate...now is this a majority ??
>
> The criteria used for this is always disputed.
> Literacy should mean a minimum level of education.
> But it never gets implemented that way and surveys are extremely
> politicized and unreliable.

If you say so and all results are disputed, how come the text at [1] says in black and white
that "India is a backward country in which majority of the people are
illiterate and most of those who are literate have no sex education."

It could have said that "we have quite some way to go in terms of
establishing better sex education and achieving high literacy targets in
India" This way we won't be wasting so many and electrons writing so
many mails on the lists

To conclude and keep your spirits high,

"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
you do it" ~MK Gandhi

Back to code! Au revoir :)

[1]
http://www.ilug-cal.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2...

--
Suchakra

[A. Mani]

On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Suchakra  wrote:
> To the organizers of this event :
>
> Drifting apart from the general discussion on whether India is such an
> evil place (as mentioned in the writeup [1]) or not, I'd say that I do
> not see any logic in associating this with Fedora as well as free
> software moment. There are many social forums for that and talking to
> NGOs, staging protests and creating a social awareness movement might
> seriously help if you choose to feel so strongly about it.

Ambassadors are allowed to reach out.
> > > > in which majority of the people are illiterate
> > >
> > > Literacy rate in India was 74.04 % in 2011 that leaves 25.96 %
> > > illiterate...now is this a majority ??
> >
> > The criteria used for this is always disputed.
> > Literacy should mean a minimum level of education.
> > But it never gets implemented that way and surveys are extremely
> > politicized and unreliable.
>
> If you say so and all results are disputed, how come the text at [1] says in black and white
> that "India is a backward country in which majority of the people are
> illiterate and most of those who are literate have no sex education."

Yes that requires references, but putting them in a 'reaching out'
document is not a good idea.
second part is trivially true.
> It could have said that "we have quite some way to go in terms of
> establishing better sex education and achieving high literacy targets in
> India" This way we won't be wasting so many and electrons writing so
> many mails on the lists

Here is the 2nd revision which was on the site two days:

\quote
We hear a number of reports in the media about crimes against women
and minorities on a daily basis. We cannot really remain silent about
these because they stand to affect our lives and safety.

The cause of such a situation can be related to illiteracy of large
sections of the populations, absence of sex education in any form in
the education system, a patriarchal system that curtails the rights of
women and minorities, inadequate and poorly trained law enforcement
forces and inadequate laws. Activists will say that the problem of
dealing with the decadent patriarchy is hard because it has merged
itself with cultural, religious and business practices at the cost of
basic human values. More recently, even the minimalist recommendations
of the Verma commission have not been fully accepted by the Government
resulting in the laws remaining sub-human in nature.

It is no wonder that the human rights abuses of women and LGBT people
is the norm. If you reflect on the issues involved, then you will
realize that the progress of the entire society is affected as a
consequence.

This poster competition is for highlighting various facets of the
problem and possible egalitarian solutions.
\unquote

Best

A. Mani

--
A. Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, CLC, CMS
http://www.logicamani.in

[Kushal Das]

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:06 PM, steve  wrote:
> erm, Hate text ? What are you speaking about ? ...ah, you confused it with
> the truth ! Just closing your eyes to the very real problems in this country
> doesn't automatically make them go away. Saying that we live in a great
> country where anything like what the text mentioned just doesn't exist or is
> false or hateful doesn't change jack s**t ! I, for one, applaud the direct
> 'un-minced' words in that announcement. That said ...

This whole discussion is meaningless as a part of this mailing list.
You should also read the discussion on the Ambassador list [1]
> From the Fedora wiki: "Ambassadors are the representatives of Fedora.

Ambassadors ensure the public understand Fedora's principles and the
work that Fedora is doing. Additionally Ambassadors are responsible
for helping to grow the contributor base, and to act as a liaison
between other FLOSS projects and the Fedora community."

This event never matched to that description of work as an Ambassador.
> From [2] : "The Fedora Project is the name of a worldwide community of

people who love, use, and build free software. We want to lead in the
creation and spread of free code and content by working together as a
community."

Again I do not see any match.

[1] https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2013-July/021422.html
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/en/about-fedora

Kushal
--
http://fedoraproject.org
http://kushaldas.in

[steve]

Hi Kushal,

This part(*) ...

On Friday 05 July 2013 07:37 PM, Kushal Das wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:06 PM, steve  wrote:
> > erm, Hate text ? What are you speaking about ? ...ah, you confused it with
> > the truth ! Just closing your eyes to the very real problems in this country
> > doesn't automatically make them go away. Saying that we live in a great
> > country where anything like what the text mentioned just doesn't exist or is
> > false or hateful doesn't change jack s**t ! I, for one, applaud the direct
> > 'un-minced' words in that announcement. That said ...

Was simply a response to your statement.

I completely agree with this statement ...
> This whole discussion is meaningless as a part of this mailing list.
> You should also read the discussion on the Ambassador list [1]

and that's exactly what this part(*) of my reply meant :
> > > I wonder about sanity of the people who approved this to be part of
> > > Fedora event.
>
> ..ehe, yeah, I think it stretched the shared causes notion a bit too far to
> bunch this with a Fedora event ...maybe having something similar to addressing
> the issue of Women in Tech or for that matter ever LGBT contribution to tech
> would've made sense ...this was a bit too random.

In other words (since I think some people seem to be having trouble parsing my 
reply) my take on the whole thing was:

a. LGTB issues were completely unrelated to anything in a Fedora event.
b. Even if we were to stretch our imagination to include this, it would've been 
more sensible to focus on Women in Tech or for that matter LGTB in tech.

cheers,
- steve

(*) why are relevant parts of my reply being snipped in responses ? It 
completely distorts the context !!

[Kushal Das]

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 7:54 PM, steve  wrote:
> Hi Kushal,
>
> This part(*) ...

<snipped>
> (*) why are relevant parts of my reply being snipped in responses ? It
> completely distorts the context !!

My mistake, sorry :)

Kushal

[A. Mani]

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Kushal Das  wrote:
> >
>
> So this means from now on Fedora is part of such hate text against India ?
> I wonder about sanity of the people who approved this to be part of
> Fedora event.

It is not hate.
It is about the state of affairs

Hate should be like "We hate this country ... because ... "
Your understanding of hate is wrong.

In fact, it is about concern for the country.

The goal of the competition was to reach out to new communities.
Working within the community is not going to help in expansion.
It has been proven by different studies.

Best

A. Mani

--
A. Mani
CU, ASL, AMS, CLC, CMS
http://www.logicamani.in