Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement

[Sudhir Khanger]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher  wrote:
> to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build

Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
1.8 as targets?

Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement

[Christopher]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger 
wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher 
> wrote:
> > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
>
> Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> 1.8 as targets?

Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the problem.
F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM, but
also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a
build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse
for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that prevents
it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java 7.
The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address
the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a
policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in
F21.

Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's any
point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually
downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be
built to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that
seems nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running
the build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely
pointless endeavor.

--
Christopher L Tubbs II
http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii

Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement

[Max Rydahl Andersen]

There are 3rd party plugins that won't just run on java 8 yet thus it is useful that eclipse can still be run on older java versions.

Eclipse from eclipse.org is targeted at java 7.

/max
http://about.me/maxandersen
> On 01 Nov 2014, at 05:43, Christopher  wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger  wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher  wrote:
> > > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
> >
> > Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> > 1.8 as targets?
>
> Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the problem. F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM, but also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that prevents it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java 7. The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in F21.
>
> Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's any point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be built to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that seems nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running the build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely pointless endeavor.
>
> --
> Christopher L Tubbs II
> http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
>
> --
> java-devel mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel

Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement

[Aleksandar Kurtakov]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Max Rydahl Andersen" 
> To: "Christopher" 
> Cc: "Fedora Java Development List" 
> Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 10:05:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
>
> There are 3rd party plugins that won't just run on java 8 yet thus it is
> useful that eclipse can still be run on older java versions.

And there are Fedora Eclipse plugins (eclipse-fedorapackager, eclipse-pkgkit) which require Java 8 so trying to target two Java versions when you don't even have them both in Fedora is just a waste with current resources.
> Eclipse from eclipse.org is targeted at java 7.

Upstream Eclipse will even run on Java 6, and so will Fedora's one as soon as you install your own Java 6 compatible eclipse dependencies. Note this is not something that is Eclipse specifics - every app that uses batik will now require Java 8 on Fedora. And I'm 99% sure it's not only batik that enforces it.

Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team
> /max
> http://about.me/maxandersen
>
> On 01 Nov 2014, at 05:43, Christopher < [e-mail] > wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger < [e-mail] >
> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher < [e-mail] >
> wrote:
> > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
>
> Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> 1.8 as targets?
>
> Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the problem.
> F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM, but
> also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
> weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a
> build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
> dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse
> for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that prevents
> it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java 7.
> The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address
> the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a
> policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in
> F21.
>
> Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's any
> point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually
> downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be built
> to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that seems
> nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running the
> build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely
> pointless endeavor.
>
> --
> Christopher L Tubbs II
> http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
>
> --
> java-devel mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel
>
> --
> java-devel mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel

Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement

[Aleksandar Kurtakov]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher" 
> To: "Sudhir Khanger" 
> Cc: "Fedora Java Development List" 
> Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 6:43:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement
>
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger < [e-mail] >
> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher < [e-mail] >
> wrote:
> > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
>
> Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> 1.8 as targets?
>
> Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the problem.
> F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM, but
> also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
> weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a
> build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
> dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse
> for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that prevents
> it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java 7.
> The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address
> the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a
> policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in
> F21.

Well, it's neither technical nor policy problem - it's resources problem. There is no policy stating that there can be only OpenJDK8. As soon as people join in with the ongoing maintenance of both upstream and downstream OpenJDK 7 the problem would be solved.
> Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's any
> point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually
> downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be built
> to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that seems
> nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running the
> build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely
> pointless endeavor.

Well, I think this is perfectly doable now. Install your own Java 7, add it as Installe JRE, target it with your project. Is there something I miss ?

Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team
> --
> Christopher L Tubbs II
> http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
>
> --
> java-devel mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel

Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement

[Christopher]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Aleksandar Kurtakov 
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Christopher" 
> > To: "Sudhir Khanger" 
> > Cc: "Fedora Java Development List" 
> > Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 6:43:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8
>
> requirement
> > On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger < [e-mail] >
> > wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher < [e-mail]
> >
> > wrote:
> > > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
> >
> > Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> > 1.8 as targets?
> >
> > Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the
>
> problem.
> > F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8 JVM,
>
> but
> > also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
> > weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented such a
> > build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
> > dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build Eclipse
> > for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that
>
> prevents
> > it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with Java
> > The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to address
> > the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much as a
> > policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8 in
> > F21.
>
> Well, it's neither technical nor policy problem - it's resources problem.
> There is no policy stating that there can be only OpenJDK8. As soon as
> people join in with the ongoing maintenance of both upstream and downstream
> OpenJDK 7 the problem would be solved.
>
> The explanation I've seen multiple times now is that there was a decision

to explicitly exclude OpenJDK7 from F21, because Oracle has Java 7
scheduled for EOL during the window of time where F21 is expected to be
supported. That sounds very much like policy. Both OpenJDK7 and OpenJDK8
lived side-by-side in F20 perfectly fine. It actually took effort to make
OpenJDK8 obsolete OpenJDK7, instead of just switching the default. I don't
know which would have taken greater effort, but it did sound to me like a
policy-based decision to do one vs. the other. It may only be a OpenJDK
package maintainer policy, not a Fedora or FESCo policy, though.
> > Even if you could build Eclipse targetted for 1.7, I'm not sure there's
>
> any
> > point, except to support running an older JRE that the user manually
> > downloaded. I'm not sure it should be a goal that Fedora's packages be
>
> built
> > to run on top of VMs that are older than the ones provided... that seems
> > nonsensical. Developing *for* those older VMs, sure, but not running the
> > build tools, like Eclipse, on them. It just seems like a completely
> > pointless endeavor.
>
> Well, I think this is perfectly doable now. Install your own Java 7, add
> it as Installe JRE, target it with your project. Is there something I miss ?
>
> Yes, building other projects against 7, within Eclipse, is doable, now

which is why I said I thought it was a pointless endeavor to rebuild
Eclipse such that it would run on Java 7. The only reason it might not be
pointless is if there are plugins that won't work in Eclipse if Eclipse
isn't running on 7... and somebody pointed out that that may be the case...
though I certainly wouldn't expect that to be the case with any Eclipse
plugins provided in Fedora.
> Alexander Kurtakov
> Red Hat Eclipse team
> > --
> > Christopher L Tubbs II
> > http://gravatar.com/ctubbsii
> >
> > --
> > java-devel mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/java-devel

Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8 requirement

[Mat Booth]

On 1 November 2014 18:09, Christopher  wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Aleksandar Kurtakov

wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Christopher" 
> > > To: "Sudhir Khanger" 
> > > Cc: "Fedora Java Development List" 
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2014 6:43:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [fedora-java] Eclipse Luna on Fedora 21 and JDK 8

requirement
> > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sudhir Khanger < [e-mail]
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 5:06 AM, Christopher <

[e-mail] >
> > > wrote:
> > > > to warrant the pursuit of -target 1.7 in its build
> > >
> > > Would it have caused technical problems to have included both 1.7 or
> > > 1.8 as targets?
> > >
> > > Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding the

problem.
> > > F21 could have built as -target 1.7 and run on the provided Java 8

JVM, but
> > > also could have run under a user-specified Java 7 JVM (assuming there
> > > weren't any bootstrap classpath problems that would have prevented

such a
> > > build, which there are... but it may not matter for Eclipse and its
> > > dependencies). I can't imagine there would be any reason to build

Eclipse
> > > for both, unless Eclipse itself has some internal restriction that

prevents
> > > it from building projects using Java 8, when itself was built with

Java 7.
> > > The fact that there isn't a 1.7 JDK to build against properly, to

address
> > > the bootstrap classpath problem, is not a technical problem, so much

as a
> > > policy that prevented OpenJDK7 from being packaged alongside OpenJDK8

in
> > > F21.
> >
> > Well, it's neither technical nor policy problem - it's resources

problem. There is no policy stating that there can be only OpenJDK8. As
soon as people join in with the ongoing maintenance of both upstream and
downstream OpenJDK 7 the problem would be solved.
> >
>
> The explanation I've seen multiple times now is that there was a decision

to explicitly exclude OpenJDK7 from F21, because Oracle has Java 7
scheduled for EOL during the window of time where F21 is expected to be
supported. That sounds very much like policy.

That is sounds like policy is purely co-incidental. There really is no-one
stepping up to maintain it or backport security fixes after Java 7 is EOL.

--
Mat Booth
http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora