8:32 a.m.
Does anyone know of an app that can implement xembed feature? My Pidgin
IM, DavMail Gateway, Audacious, and many other apps are annoyingly not
included in the systry because of KDE not supporting xembed. I figured
if there might be a widget that implements xembed? This is a major fail
for KDE, IMNSHO.
--
Thanks,
E. Recio
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8:16 p.m.
On Thursday 23 July 2015 13:32:58 Emilio Recio wrote:
Does anyone know of an app that can implement xembed feature?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/06/where-are-my-systray-icons/
Pidgin
https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/rvokal/pidgin-indicator/
This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications.
11:44 p.m.
Am 24.07.2015 um 03:16 schrieb Markus Slopianka:
On Thursday 23 July 2015 13:32:58 Emilio Recio wrote:
> Does anyone know of an app that can implement xembed feature?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/06/where-are-my-systray-icons/
> Pidgin
https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/rvokal/pidgin-indicator/
> This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications
strange attitude - if *non-kde* apps have problems with the systray and
did not before KDE5 it's hardly a failure of the application, it's
*again* a incompatible and ignorant regression as it happens every few
years so that i even start asking myself "am i right in my mind to use
linux desktop"
"fail for your applications" - WTF - the world of application developers
don't turn around KDE and broken desktops, i heard the same b**** with
the over a year flickering control bar with KDE 4.0 in combination with
nvidia cards - the same - it worked befor KDE3->KDE4, so KDE is the
problem and not the card and it's the job of a developer to handle it if
it has worked before AND NO "it's free" don't justify carelessly while
whine every year why linux desktops are a niche and how to change that
if developers like linux desktops no longer be a niche the just need to
stop user visible major changes and breaking things which worked and are
in use - that's it, no Fedora.next, just don't break the user
expierience once per year and you will stop lose existing ones and get
new ones which no longer need to fear that their workflow get broken
again and again
11:59 p.m.
Reindl, I bash on a lot of design decision from the KDE and GNOME camps
alike, but this wasn't one of them. Xembed had to go, it was a design
nightmare. As far as who's fault it is.. I really gotta go with the apps on
this one. They had four -years- of warning that the "traditional" xembed
way of sys tray icons was going away eventually. If they couldnt find time
to port over to Status Notifiers / App Indicators by then that that's their
problem / or the project is dead anyway.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net>
wrote:
Am 24.07.2015 um 03:16 schrieb Markus Slopianka:
> On Thursday 23 July 2015 13:32:58 Emilio Recio wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of an app that can implement xembed feature?
>>
>
> http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/06/where-are-my-systray-icons/
>
>
> Pidgin
>>
>
> https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/rvokal/pidgin-indicator/
>
>
> This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
>>
>
> Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications
>
strange attitude - if *non-kde* apps have problems with the systray and
did not before KDE5 it's hardly a failure of the application, it's *again*
a incompatible and ignorant regression as it happens every few years so
that i even start asking myself "am i right in my mind to use linux desktop"
"fail for your applications" - WTF - the world of application developers
don't turn around KDE and broken desktops, i heard the same b**** with the
over a year flickering control bar with KDE 4.0 in combination with nvidia
cards - the same - it worked befor KDE3->KDE4, so KDE is the problem and
not the card and it's the job of a developer to handle it if it has worked
before AND NO "it's free" don't justify carelessly while whine every
year
why linux desktops are a niche and how to change that
if developers like linux desktops no longer be a niche the just need to
stop user visible major changes and breaking things which worked and are in
use - that's it, no Fedora.next, just don't break the user expierience once
per year and you will stop lose existing ones and get new ones which no
longer need to fear that their workflow get broken again and again
_______________________________________________
kde mailing list
kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde
New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
12:12 a.m.
does the same application work on the Fedora default desktop (GNOME)?
if the answer is yes KDE is to blame, period
Am 24.07.2015 um 06:59 schrieb Eric Griffith:
Reindl, I bash on a lot of design decision from the KDE and GNOME
camps
alike, but this wasn't one of them. Xembed had to go, it was a design
nightmare. As far as who's fault it is.. I really gotta go with the apps
on this one. They had four -years- of warning that the "traditional"
xembed way of sys tray icons was going away eventually. If they couldnt
find time to port over to Status Notifiers / App Indicators by then that
that's their problem / or the project is dead anyway.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net
<mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net>> wrote:
Am 24.07.2015 um 03:16 schrieb Markus Slopianka:
On Thursday 23 July 2015 13:32:58 Emilio Recio wrote:
Does anyone know of an app that can implement xembed feature?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/06/where-are-my-systray-icons/
Pidgin
https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/rvokal/pidgin-indicator/
This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications
strange attitude - if *non-kde* apps have problems with the systray
and did not before KDE5 it's hardly a failure of the application,
it's *again* a incompatible and ignorant regression as it happens
every few years so that i even start asking myself "am i right in my
mind to use linux desktop"
"fail for your applications" - WTF - the world of application
developers don't turn around KDE and broken desktops, i heard the
same b**** with the over a year flickering control bar with KDE 4.0
in combination with nvidia cards - the same - it worked befor
KDE3->KDE4, so KDE is the problem and not the card and it's the job
of a developer to handle it if it has worked before AND NO "it's
free" don't justify carelessly while whine every year why linux
desktops are a niche and how to change that
if developers like linux desktops no longer be a niche the just need
to stop user visible major changes and breaking things which worked
and are in use - that's it, no Fedora.next, just don't break the
user expierience once per year and you will stop lose existing ones
and get new ones which no longer need to fear that their workflow
get broken again and again
12:20 a.m.
Don't have my laptop in front of me to confirm but my guess is no. Moving
away from Xembed and dropping support for it in a too-be-decided future
version of the desktop environments was announced in 2011 with the advent
of Status Notifiers and libappindicator.
On Jul 24, 2015 01:12, "Reindl Harald" <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
does the same application work on the Fedora default desktop
(GNOME)?
if the answer is yes KDE is to blame, period
Am 24.07.2015 um 06:59 schrieb Eric Griffith:
> Reindl, I bash on a lot of design decision from the KDE and GNOME camps
> alike, but this wasn't one of them. Xembed had to go, it was a design
> nightmare. As far as who's fault it is.. I really gotta go with the apps
> on this one. They had four -years- of warning that the "traditional"
> xembed way of sys tray icons was going away eventually. If they couldnt
> find time to port over to Status Notifiers / App Indicators by then that
> that's their problem / or the project is dead anyway.
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net
> <mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net>> wrote:
>
>
> Am 24.07.2015 um 03:16 schrieb Markus Slopianka:
>
> On Thursday 23 July 2015 13:32:58 Emilio Recio wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of an app that can implement xembed feature?
>
>
>
> http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/06/where-are-my-systray-icons/
>
>
> Pidgin
>
>
> https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/rvokal/pidgin-indicator/
>
>
> This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
>
>
> Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications
>
>
> strange attitude - if *non-kde* apps have problems with the systray
> and did not before KDE5 it's hardly a failure of the application,
> it's *again* a incompatible and ignorant regression as it happens
> every few years so that i even start asking myself "am i right in my
> mind to use linux desktop"
>
> "fail for your applications" - WTF - the world of application
> developers don't turn around KDE and broken desktops, i heard the
> same b**** with the over a year flickering control bar with KDE 4.0
> in combination with nvidia cards - the same - it worked befor
> KDE3->KDE4, so KDE is the problem and not the card and it's the job
> of a developer to handle it if it has worked before AND NO "it's
> free" don't justify carelessly while whine every year why linux
> desktops are a niche and how to change that
>
> if developers like linux desktops no longer be a niche the just need
> to stop user visible major changes and breaking things which worked
> and are in use - that's it, no Fedora.next, just don't break the
> user expierience once per year and you will stop lose existing ones
> and get new ones which no longer need to fear that their workflow
> get broken again and again
>
_______________________________________________
kde mailing list
kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde
New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
12:22 a.m.
Quick Google search for "Gnome Shell Pidgin SysTray" had a fair few hits on
how to get a working icon back. So it would appear that Gnome also did
remove support for Xembed, likely even before KDE did.
On Jul 24, 2015 01:20, "Eric Griffith" <egriffith92(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Don't have my laptop in front of me to confirm but my guess is
no. Moving
away from Xembed and dropping support for it in a too-be-decided future
version of the desktop environments was announced in 2011 with the advent
of Status Notifiers and libappindicator.
On Jul 24, 2015 01:12, "Reindl Harald" <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net> wrote:
> does the same application work on the Fedora default desktop (GNOME)?
> if the answer is yes KDE is to blame, period
>
> Am 24.07.2015 um 06:59 schrieb Eric Griffith:
>
>> Reindl, I bash on a lot of design decision from the KDE and GNOME camps
>> alike, but this wasn't one of them. Xembed had to go, it was a design
>> nightmare. As far as who's fault it is.. I really gotta go with the apps
>> on this one. They had four -years- of warning that the "traditional"
>> xembed way of sys tray icons was going away eventually. If they couldnt
>> find time to port over to Status Notifiers / App Indicators by then that
>> that's their problem / or the project is dead anyway.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net
>> <mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Am 24.07.2015 um 03:16 schrieb Markus Slopianka:
>>
>> On Thursday 23 July 2015 13:32:58 Emilio Recio wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of an app that can implement xembed feature?
>>
>>
>>
>> http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/06/where-are-my-systray-icons/
>>
>>
>> Pidgin
>>
>>
>> https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/rvokal/pidgin-indicator/
>>
>>
>> This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
>>
>>
>> Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications
>>
>>
>> strange attitude - if *non-kde* apps have problems with the systray
>> and did not before KDE5 it's hardly a failure of the application,
>> it's *again* a incompatible and ignorant regression as it happens
>> every few years so that i even start asking myself "am i right in my
>> mind to use linux desktop"
>>
>> "fail for your applications" - WTF - the world of application
>> developers don't turn around KDE and broken desktops, i heard the
>> same b**** with the over a year flickering control bar with KDE 4.0
>> in combination with nvidia cards - the same - it worked befor
>> KDE3->KDE4, so KDE is the problem and not the card and it's the job
>> of a developer to handle it if it has worked before AND NO "it's
>> free" don't justify carelessly while whine every year why linux
>> desktops are a niche and how to change that
>>
>> if developers like linux desktops no longer be a niche the just need
>> to stop user visible major changes and breaking things which worked
>> and are in use - that's it, no Fedora.next, just don't break the
>> user expierience once per year and you will stop lose existing ones
>> and get new ones which no longer need to fear that their workflow
>> get broken again and again
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kde mailing list
> kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde
> New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
>
7 p.m.
Eric Griffith wrote:
Quick Google search for "Gnome Shell Pidgin SysTray" had a
fair few hits
on how to get a working icon back. So it would appear that Gnome also did
remove support for Xembed, likely even before KDE did.
GNOME Shell actually has limited support for the old XEmbed-based protocol
(the icons end up hidden inside a popup menu, unless you install the
"Topicons" extension) and does not support the Status Notifier Protocol at
all (though there is now another third-party extension adding support for
it). So GNOME Shell is no incentive for developers to move to the new
protocol. (They'll end up with the same old protocol as before (through the
XEmbed fallback code all the client-side Status Notifier implementations so
far still carry) and the same crap support as before.)
The GNOME Shell developers refused to implement the Status Notifier
specification because they claimed that it was "unclear" and that it doesn't
fit their UI design goals. They just live in their own island and simply
don't give a darn about interoperability with software written for Plasma or
Unity.
Kevin Kofler
6:53 p.m.
Eric Griffith wrote:
Reindl, I bash on a lot of design decision from the KDE and GNOME
camps
alike, but this wasn't one of them. Xembed had to go, it was a design
nightmare. As far as who's fault it is.. I really gotta go with the apps
on this one. They had four -years- of warning that the "traditional"
xembed way of sys tray icons was going away eventually. If they couldnt
find time to port over to Status Notifiers / App Indicators by then that
that's their problem / or the project is dead anyway.
IMHO, the application is technically the wrong piece of software to blame,
though in the end it will be their effort to port to libappindicator. I
blame mainly the toolkit, i.e., GTK+. It is perfectly possible for the
toolkit to implement drop-in support for the new protocol requiring NO
application changes. Qt did it. (And kdelibs 4 has supported the new
protocol out of the box from day 1.) GTK+ refused to do it.
Now, there is also the refusal by several application developers to support
libappindicator, and the refusal by several Fedora package maintainers to
enable libappindicator support where upstream optionally supports it or
where patches are available (from Ubuntu or elsewhere). All together, it is
a major fiasco, caused by GNOME developers' boycott of non-GNOME desktop
environments.
Kevin Kofler
12:46 p.m.
On Jul 24, 2015 10:09 AM, "Markus Slopianka" <kamikazow(a)gmx.de> wrote:
Go troll somewhere else.
Expressing an opinion isn't trolling. I understand the frustration, change
is usually challenging. In this case I believe that the application folks
dropped the ball. They had plenty of advanced notice. If you develop an
application and want it to run properly you need to keep up with changes.
5:40 a.m.
On 24 July 2015 at 02:16, Markus Slopianka <kamikazow(a)gmx.de> wrote:
> This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications.
How do you justify that remark? Is every "failing" app violating some
standard? Even if they are, what happened to Robustness Principle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle ?
poc
5:54 a.m.
Am 24.07.2015 um 12:40 schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
On 24 July 2015 at 02:16, Markus Slopianka <kamikazow(a)gmx.de
<mailto:kamikazow@gmx.de>> wrote:
> This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications.
How do you justify that remark? Is every "failing" app violating some
standard? Even if they are, what happened to Robustness Principle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle?
it's gone
we are in the age where everybody thinks that he must re-invent himself
each and every day and as soon as things are working properly throw the
stability away and start from scratch to make "all better"
when things are better (again) go back to "start from scratch"
all that hypocritical "we fixed this and optimized that" don't tell that
it already worked fine in the past by hoping people forget or new users
really buy that "wow this got better" because they don't know that it is
the third iteration of fix/optimize/break/rewrite
that may be nice for a developer but it's pure crap for users actually
try to do their stuff with computers and not interested seek all the
time how to get known behavior back or often wait months to get things
back to work which where not ready but replaced
11:03 a.m.
The robustness principle was fine for xembed. This isn't xembed. Xembed
could -not- exist going forward, it wouldn't even -usable- on future
systems considering the icons for xembed are hardcoded to be 22x22 pixels.
22x22 pixels looks like trash on my 1080p monitor, I don't want to think
about what it would look like on a 4K monitor in the future. Better to just
rip the bandaid off now when 4K is still gaining traction so that by the
time it comes around we are hiDPI ready across the board. For KDE
specifically trying to do an Xembed systray on a Wayland desktop via
XWayland is, by Martin Graesslin's own words, "not the most trivial task."
I get that annoyance and inconvenience of your app breaking on Gnome 3 and
KDE 4 systems, I have a few that broke too. But I was also there 4 years
ago when Ubuntu and Gnome said "We're bin'ing Xembed at some point in the
future. Move to Status Notifiers or AppIndicators or be left behind.
Pidgin, Audacious, DavMail, etc all had plenty of warning it was coming.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 6:54 AM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net>
wrote:
Am 24.07.2015 um 12:40 schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
>
> On 24 July 2015 at 02:16, Markus Slopianka <kamikazow(a)gmx.de
> <mailto:kamikazow@gmx.de>> wrote:
>
> > This is a major fail for KDE, IMNSHO.
>
> Wrong. It's a major fail for your applications.
>
>
> How do you justify that remark? Is every "failing" app violating some
> standard? Even if they are, what happened to Robustness Principle:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle?
>
it's gone
we are in the age where everybody thinks that he must re-invent himself
each and every day and as soon as things are working properly throw the
stability away and start from scratch to make "all better"
when things are better (again) go back to "start from scratch"
all that hypocritical "we fixed this and optimized that" don't tell that
it already worked fine in the past by hoping people forget or new users
really buy that "wow this got better" because they don't know that it is
the third iteration of fix/optimize/break/rewrite
that may be nice for a developer but it's pure crap for users actually try
to do their stuff with computers and not interested seek all the time how
to get known behavior back or often wait months to get things back to work
which where not ready but replaced
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13 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Emilio Recio -
Eric Griffith -
Gerald B. Cox -
Kevin Kofler -
Markus Slopianka -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Reindl Harald