KDE Live can be installed without creating a regular user - correct/wrong?

[Kamil Paral]

KDE Live can be installed without creating a regular user, only root. All
you need to do is to not create a regular user in anaconda (only root), and
then not create a regular user in the first boot utility (just click
Finish). In SSDM, it is then possible to log in using the root account (not
a good idea in general, to be sure).

Is this intentional, or a bug? Should KDE require creating a regular user,
similarly to Workstation?

[Troy Dawson]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 3:24 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  KDE Live can be installed without creating a regular user, only root.
> All
>  you need to do is to not create a regular user in anaconda (only root), and
>  then not create a regular user in the first boot utility (just click
>  Finish). In SSDM, it is then possible to log in using the root account (not
>  a good idea in general, to be sure).
>
>  Is this intentional, or a bug? Should KDE require creating a regular user,
>  similarly to Workstation?
>  
I believe this is part of the fundamental difference between KDE and GNOME.
GNOME locks you into things and you have no control over alot of things.
KDE allows you much for flexibility and lets you create your machine your
way.

The Fedora Workstation Live CD install has modified the installer so you
have a very limited set of things you can do. (3 things)
The KDE Live CD allows you to configure your machine more how you want (6
things)/

I love the "all you need to do" in your wording.
In reality, you have to create a root user during install (which is not
default), and not create a user.  So you've made a choice there.
You then have to not create a user on startup, it is literally right
there.  It is easier to click the create user than the Finish button.
Again, another choice.
When you get to the SDDM login screen, root is not listed.  No user is
listed.  So you have to know to put in 'root' and the password.
At this point, you have shown that you know who root is, and have
deliberately setup your machine to run only as root.

So in reality the question you are asking is this.
"Is it ok for root to login and run graphically?"
I'm not saying this question is not important, it is important.
But, this is a very old question, and one that GNOME and KDE diverged on
years ago.
Currently, KDE allows you to login graphically as root.
That is intentional.

Troy
p.s. I'm not saying it won't change, that's what I said "currently"

[Troy Dawson]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 7:12 AM Troy Dawson <tdawson(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 3:24 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>
> > KDE Live can be installed without creating a regular user, only root. All
> > you need to do is to not create a regular user in anaconda (only root), and
> > then not create a regular user in the first boot utility (just click
> > Finish). In SSDM, it is then possible to log in using the root account (not
> > a good idea in general, to be sure).
> >
> > Is this intentional, or a bug? Should KDE require creating a regular
> > user, similarly to Workstation?
> >
>
>  I believe this is part of the fundamental difference between KDE and GNOME.
>  GNOME locks you into things and you have no control over alot of things.
>  KDE allows you much for flexibility and lets you create your machine your
>  way.
>
>  The Fedora Workstation Live CD install has modified the installer so you
>  have a very limited set of things you can do. (3 things)
>  The KDE Live CD allows you to configure your machine more how you want (6
>  things)/
>
>  I love the "all you need to do" in your wording.
>  In reality, you have to create a root user during install (which is not
>  default), and not create a user.  So you've made a choice there.
>  You then have to not create a user on startup, it is literally right
>  there.  It is easier to click the create user than the Finish button.
>  Again, another choice.
>  When you get to the SDDM login screen, root is not listed.  No user is
>  listed.  So you have to know to put in 'root' and the password.
>  At this point, you have shown that you know who root is, and have
>  deliberately setup your machine to run only as root.
>
>  So in reality the question you are asking is this.
>  "Is it ok for root to login and run graphically?"
>  I'm not saying this question is not important, it is important.
>  But, this is a very old question, and one that GNOME and KDE diverged on
>  years ago.
>  Currently, KDE allows you to login graphically as root.
>  That is intentional.
>
>  Troy
>  p.s. I'm not saying it won't change, that's what I said
> "currently"
>  
I'm sorry, I hadn't done enough testing before I wrote everything above.
GNOME (and gdm) does allow you to log in graphically as root.
Do a normal workstation install.
Set the root password.
Log-out or reboot.
Click "not-listed" - then login as root, and it comes up.
I do like that when you login to GNOME, a notification says that you are
running as a privileged user.
I didn't see that notification in KDE, or at least it wasn't as prominent
as GNOME's was.

Troy

[Ben Cotton]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:25 AM Troy Dawson <tdawson(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  I believe this is part of the fundamental difference between KDE and GNOME.
>  GNOME locks you into things and you have no control over alot of things.
>  KDE allows you much for flexibility and lets you create your machine your way. 
This is, IMO, less about the philosophy of the upstream projects and
more about what Fedora wants to present to our users. The question is
"does Fedora want to support creating root-only installations via the
KDE Plasma live image's normal installation path?" (Wording
intentionally specific to acknowledge the fact that other mechanisms,
e.g. kickstart, exist)

This is an area where it makes sense for a distro to be opinionated,
even if that opinion is divergent from upstream.

-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:25 AM Ben Cotton <bcotton(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; wrote:
>  On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 10:25 AM Troy Dawson <tdawson(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  > I believe this is part of the fundamental difference between KDE and GNOME.
>  > GNOME locks you into things and you have no control over alot of things.
>  > KDE allows you much for flexibility and lets you create your machine your way.
>
>  This is, IMO, less about the philosophy of the upstream projects and
>  more about what Fedora wants to present to our users. The question is
>  "does Fedora want to support creating root-only installations via the
>  KDE Plasma live image's normal installation path?" (Wording
>  intentionally specific to acknowledge the fact that other mechanisms,
>  e.g. kickstart, exist)
>
>  This is an area where it makes sense for a distro to be opinionated,
>  even if that opinion is divergent from upstream.
>  
This will change once we have our own OOBE setup for KDE Plasma. For
now, we don't have it, so we're at the mercy of what the user sets
during installation.



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Kamil Paral]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 4:24 PM Troy Dawson <tdawson(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 3:24 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt;
> wrote:
>
> > KDE Live can be installed without creating a regular user, only root. All
> > you need to do is to not create a regular user in anaconda (only root), and
> > then not create a regular user in the first boot utility (just click
> > Finish). In SSDM, it is then possible to log in using the root account (not
> > a good idea in general, to be sure).
> >
> > Is this intentional, or a bug? Should KDE require creating a regular
> > user, similarly to Workstation?
> >
>
>  I believe this is part of the fundamental difference between KDE and GNOME.
>  
Sure, sure, I don't really need a lecture about philosophical differences
between the two environments. I just want people from KDE SIG to say
"that's fine" or "uhh, that's not a good idea, let's fix that
asap".

From your and Neal's reaction, it seems that you're fine with this, so I'm
not going to raise an alarm during the F37 release process.

[Kamil Paral]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 6:43 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  This will change once we have our own OOBE setup for KDE Plasma. For
>  now, we don't have it, so we're at the mercy of what the user sets
>  during installation.
>  
Not really. Workstation can set their own rules in anaconda, you can too. I
believe it wouldn't be that much work to force creation of a regular user
either in anaconda or in the initial setup. Furthermore, if you say you
want it, we can have a release criterion saying that desktop environments
must have a regular user account created. Our current criteria are weaker,
but they can be changed, of course:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Basic_Release_Criteria#expected-installed-...

(OT: Am I the only one who gets a "Delivery has failed to these recipients
or groups" response from postmaster(a)outlook.com each time I send an email
to this list? Perhaps it's a good idea to kick those people out of the
list?)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 3:50 AM Kamil Paral <kparal(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 6:43 PM Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > This will change once we have our own OOBE setup for KDE Plasma. For
> > now, we don't have it, so we're at the mercy of what the user sets
> > during installation.
>
>
>  Not really. Workstation can set their own rules in anaconda, you can too. I believe it
> wouldn't be that much work to force creation of a regular user either in anaconda or
> in the initial setup. Furthermore, if you say you want it, we can have a release criterion
> saying that desktop environments must have a regular user account created. Our current
> criteria are weaker, but they can be changed, of course:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Basic_Release_Criteria#expected-installed-...
>  
I do not want to support KDE Plasma through the root user. It's a bit
late for F37, but if we can tweak Anaconda for F38 to do this
(assuming we don't get out OOBE stuff in), that would be great.

Anaconda's initial setup is completely broken for us, which is why
we've been working with the KDE folks on a new one.

>  (OT: Am I the only one who gets a "Delivery has failed to these
> recipients or groups" response from postmaster(a)outlook.com each time I send an email
> to this list? Perhaps it's a good idea to kick those people out of the list?) 
I don't get that email, but yeah it probably needs pruning...



-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 11:58 +0200, Kamil Paral wrote:
>  KDE Live can be installed without creating a regular user, only root.
> All
>  you need to do is to not create a regular user in anaconda (only root), and
>  then not create a regular user in the first boot utility (just click
>  Finish). In SSDM, it is then possible to log in using the root account (not
>  a good idea in general, to be sure).
>  
>  Is this intentional, or a bug? Should KDE require creating a regular user,
>  similarly to Workstation? 
My memory is that we've discussed this before - we had a long period of
twiddling with those requirements - and it was decided this was
intended. I don't have the archives to hand, though, it was too long
ago...
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA
IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha
https://www.happyassassin.net