2:06 p.m.
Hello everyone,
After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised by the new Plasma update
notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the previous plasma-pk-updates
thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the most featureful of package
managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with Discover that make it
pretty much useless for me:
– There seems to be no way to select which updates to install. All I can see
is a list of available updates with a button to install all of them, but no
way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use commandline DNF with a
whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job done, but the point of a GUI is
to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
– I can't seem to find the description of individual package updates (the short
changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click a particular package,
together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again, getting these any other way
than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
– The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do anything directly, I have to
wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend a long while loading the
updates, which is much more disruptive than the few seconds needed to trigger
updating through plasma-pk-updates.
I can see how many people nowadays might prefer the "app store" feel of
Discover to more traditional package managers, so I'm not saying Discover
shouldn't be the default. However, can't we keep plasma-pk-updates as an
alternative for those whose needs aren't covered by Discover?
Right now, one can install f34 build of plasma-pk-updates from Koji and
everything works fine, but plasma-discover-notifier comes with Obsoletes:
plasma-pk-updates < 0.5, which I find a tad aggressive (forcing replacement of
not only any current version of plasma-pk-updates, but also any versions to
come). What about changing that to only obsolete whatever the highest version
is in F33 (so that everyone still gets the new default on upgrades), but still
letting people manually install plasma-pk-updates on F34? It's not like
plasma-pk-updates has a lot of dependencies or receives many new features, so
future maintenance burden should be minimal to negligible.
Unless there's a better solution, I'll just build plasma-pk-updates on Copr
with a bumped epoch (and Conflicts: plasma-discover-notifier). That should get
the job done, but it would be nicer (and more discoverable) to keep it in the
main repos.
2T
7:08 a.m.
On 5/6/21 4:06 PM, Tomáš Trnka wrote:
Hello everyone,
After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised by the new Plasma update
notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the previous plasma-pk-updates
thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the most featureful of package
managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with Discover that make it
pretty much useless for me:
– There seems to be no way to select which updates to install. All I can see
is a list of available updates with a button to install all of them, but no
way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use commandline DNF with a
whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job done, but the point of a GUI is
to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
– I can't seem to find the description of individual package updates (the short
changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click a particular package,
together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again, getting these any other way
than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
– The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do anything directly, I have to
wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend a long while loading the
updates, which is much more disruptive than the few seconds needed to trigger
updating through plasma-pk-updates.
Even worse is that every single update requires a reboot. I just took a
fully updated system and then downgraded vlc. Updated with Discover and
even though it only had to update vlc-core-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 and
vlc-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 it still required a reboot.
<snip>
7:19 a.m.
On 5/9/21 9:08 AM, Patrick Boutilier wrote:
On 5/6/21 4:06 PM, Tomáš Trnka wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised by the new Plasma
> update
> notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the previous
> plasma-pk-updates
> thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the most featureful of package
> managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with Discover that make it
> pretty much useless for me:
>
> – There seems to be no way to select which updates to install. All I
> can see
> is a list of available updates with a button to install all of them,
> but no
> way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use commandline DNF with a
> whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job done, but the point of a
> GUI is
> to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
> – I can't seem to find the description of individual package updates
> (the short
> changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click a particular
> package,
> together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again, getting these any other
> way
> than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
> – The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do anything directly, I
> have to
> wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend a long while
> loading the
> updates, which is much more disruptive than the few seconds needed to
> trigger
> updating through plasma-pk-updates.
>
Even worse is that every single update requires a reboot. I just took a
fully updated system and then downgraded vlc. Updated with Discover and
even though it only had to update vlc-core-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 and
vlc-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 it still required a reboot.
Looks like this will be an option in 5.22 .
https://invent.kde.org/plasma/discover/-/merge_requests/111
Although I am not sure how doing an online vlc update will cause an
"unstable system". It wouldn't be so bad if there were not almost daily
updates available.
<snip>
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8:10 a.m.
On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
On 5/9/21 9:08 AM, Patrick Boutilier wrote:
> On 5/6/21 4:06 PM, Tomáš Trnka wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised by the new Plasma
>> update
>> notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the previous
>> plasma-pk-updates
>> thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the most featureful of package
>> managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with Discover that make it
>> pretty much useless for me:
>>
>> – There seems to be no way to select which updates to install. All I
>> can see
>> is a list of available updates with a button to install all of them,
>> but no
>> way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use commandline DNF with a
>> whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job done, but the point of a
>> GUI is
>> to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
>> – I can't seem to find the description of individual package updates
>> (the short
>> changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click a particular
>> package,
>> together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again, getting these any other
>> way
>> than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
>> – The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do anything directly, I
>> have to
>> wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend a long while
>> loading the
>> updates, which is much more disruptive than the few seconds needed to
>> trigger
>> updating through plasma-pk-updates.
>>
>
> Even worse is that every single update requires a reboot. I just took a
> fully updated system and then downgraded vlc. Updated with Discover and
> even though it only had to update vlc-core-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 and
> vlc-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 it still required a reboot.
>
Looks like this will be an option in 5.22 .
https://invent.kde.org/plasma/discover/-/merge_requests/111
Although I am not sure how doing an online vlc update will cause an
"unstable system". It wouldn't be so bad if there were not almost daily
updates available.
We don't have a heuristic for differentiating what a "safe update" and
an "unsafe update" would be. In the VLC case, it would be "safe" as
long as the phonon-vlc backend was not used for KDE Plasma (we don't
use it by default, but someone could swap it in from a third-party
build).
It can get fairly complicated, and it's always been a bad idea to
update the desktop software while it's running from within the
terminal of the said desktop, because you can lead to a scenario where
you've temporarily caused a broken state that would only be fixed by
rebooting anyway. For the majority of users, offline updates for
packages is the correct behavior.
That said, yes, Plasma 5.22 (coming in a month) will introduce a
user-accessible option to turn it off.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
8:19 a.m.
On 5/9/21 10:10 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:19 AM Patrick Boutilier
<boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 5/9/21 9:08 AM, Patrick Boutilier wrote:
>> On 5/6/21 4:06 PM, Tomáš Trnka wrote:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised by the new Plasma
>>> update
>>> notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the previous
>>> plasma-pk-updates
>>> thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the most featureful of
package
>>> managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with Discover that make it
>>> pretty much useless for me:
>>>
>>> – There seems to be no way to select which updates to install. All I
>>> can see
>>> is a list of available updates with a button to install all of them,
>>> but no
>>> way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use commandline DNF with a
>>> whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job done, but the point of
a
>>> GUI is
>>> to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
>>> – I can't seem to find the description of individual package updates
>>> (the short
>>> changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click a particular
>>> package,
>>> together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again, getting these any other
>>> way
>>> than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
>>> – The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do anything directly, I
>>> have to
>>> wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend a long while
>>> loading the
>>> updates, which is much more disruptive than the few seconds needed to
>>> trigger
>>> updating through plasma-pk-updates.
>>>
>>
>> Even worse is that every single update requires a reboot. I just took a
>> fully updated system and then downgraded vlc. Updated with Discover and
>> even though it only had to update vlc-core-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 and
>> vlc-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 it still required a reboot.
>>
>
> Looks like this will be an option in 5.22 .
> https://invent.kde.org/plasma/discover/-/merge_requests/111
>
> Although I am not sure how doing an online vlc update will cause an
> "unstable system". It wouldn't be so bad if there were not almost
daily
> updates available.
>
We don't have a heuristic for differentiating what a "safe update" and
an "unsafe update" would be. In the VLC case, it would be "safe" as
long as the phonon-vlc backend was not used for KDE Plasma (we don't
use it by default, but someone could swap it in from a third-party
build).
It can get fairly complicated, and it's always been a bad idea to
update the desktop software while it's running from within the
terminal of the said desktop, because you can lead to a scenario where
you've temporarily caused a broken state that would only be fixed by
rebooting anyway. For the majority of users, offline updates for
packages is the correct behavior.
That said, yes, Plasma 5.22 (coming in a month) will introduce a
user-accessible option to turn it off.
Is there any way for the packages themselves to "request" offline
updates? I agree that updating plasma, kf5-*, etc.. live is not a good
idea. But something like nano for instance shouldn't need to be updated
offline.
8:28 a.m.
On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
On 5/9/21 10:10 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/9/21 9:08 AM, Patrick Boutilier wrote:
>>> On 5/6/21 4:06 PM, Tomáš Trnka wrote:
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>> After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised by the new Plasma
>>>> update
>>>> notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the previous
>>>> plasma-pk-updates
>>>> thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the most featureful of
package
>>>> managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with Discover that make
it
>>>> pretty much useless for me:
>>>>
>>>> – There seems to be no way to select which updates to install. All I
>>>> can see
>>>> is a list of available updates with a button to install all of them,
>>>> but no
>>>> way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use commandline DNF with
a
>>>> whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job done, but the
point of a
>>>> GUI is
>>>> to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
>>>> – I can't seem to find the description of individual package
updates
>>>> (the short
>>>> changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click a particular
>>>> package,
>>>> together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again, getting these any other
>>>> way
>>>> than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
>>>> – The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do anything directly, I
>>>> have to
>>>> wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend a long while
>>>> loading the
>>>> updates, which is much more disruptive than the few seconds needed to
>>>> trigger
>>>> updating through plasma-pk-updates.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Even worse is that every single update requires a reboot. I just took a
>>> fully updated system and then downgraded vlc. Updated with Discover and
>>> even though it only had to update vlc-core-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 and
>>> vlc-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 it still required a reboot.
>>>
>>
>> Looks like this will be an option in 5.22 .
>> https://invent.kde.org/plasma/discover/-/merge_requests/111
>>
>> Although I am not sure how doing an online vlc update will cause an
>> "unstable system". It wouldn't be so bad if there were not almost
daily
>> updates available.
>>
>
> We don't have a heuristic for differentiating what a "safe update"
and
> an "unsafe update" would be. In the VLC case, it would be "safe"
as
> long as the phonon-vlc backend was not used for KDE Plasma (we don't
> use it by default, but someone could swap it in from a third-party
> build).
>
> It can get fairly complicated, and it's always been a bad idea to
> update the desktop software while it's running from within the
> terminal of the said desktop, because you can lead to a scenario where
> you've temporarily caused a broken state that would only be fixed by
> rebooting anyway. For the majority of users, offline updates for
> packages is the correct behavior.
>
> That said, yes, Plasma 5.22 (coming in a month) will introduce a
> user-accessible option to turn it off.
>
>
Is there any way for the packages themselves to "request" offline
updates? I agree that updating plasma, kf5-*, etc.. live is not a good
idea. But something like nano for instance shouldn't need to be updated
offline.
It is possible, but basically none of the PackageKit backends tell
PackageKit this information, so the frontends are working blindly to
try to do the right thing. I'm trying to figure out if I can extend
the DNF backend to start offering that information.
Since Fedora has updateinfo and we (Fedora KDE team) set the value
correctly when we submit updates, it should be possible for me to
plumb this through. It looks like I'll need to extend libdnf's API
first to do it, so that's going to take some time.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
9:11 a.m.
On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 09:28 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <
boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 5/9/21 10:10 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <
> > boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/9/21 9:08 AM, Patrick Boutilier wrote:
> > > > On 5/6/21 4:06 PM, Tomáš Trnka wrote:
> > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > >
> > > > > After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised by the
> > > > > new Plasma
> > > > > update
> > > > > notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the previous
> > > > > plasma-pk-updates
> > > > > thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the most
> > > > > featureful of package
> > > > > managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with Discover
> > > > > that make it
> > > > > pretty much useless for me:
> > > > >
> > > > > – There seems to be no way to select which updates to
> > > > > install. All I
> > > > > can see
> > > > > is a list of available updates with a button to install all
> > > > > of them,
> > > > > but no
> > > > > way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use
> > > > > commandline DNF with a
> > > > > whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job done, but
the
> > > > > point of a
> > > > > GUI is
> > > > > to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
> > > > > – I can't seem to find the description of individual
package
> > > > > updates
> > > > > (the short
> > > > > changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click a
> > > > > particular
> > > > > package,
> > > > > together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again, getting these
> > > > > any other
> > > > > way
> > > > > than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
> > > > > – The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do anything
> > > > > directly, I
> > > > > have to
> > > > > wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend a long
> > > > > while
> > > > > loading the
> > > > > updates, which is much more disruptive than the few seconds
> > > > > needed to
> > > > > trigger
> > > > > updating through plasma-pk-updates.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Even worse is that every single update requires a reboot. I
> > > > just took a
> > > > fully updated system and then downgraded vlc. Updated with
> > > > Discover and
> > > > even though it only had to update vlc-core-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64
> > > > and
> > > > vlc-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 it still required a reboot.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Looks like this will be an option in 5.22 .
> > > https://invent.kde.org/plasma/discover/-/merge_requests/111
> > >
> > > Although I am not sure how doing an online vlc update will cause
> > > an
> > > "unstable system". It wouldn't be so bad if there were not
almost
> > > daily
> > > updates available.
> > >
> >
> > We don't have a heuristic for differentiating what a "safe
update"
> > and
> > an "unsafe update" would be. In the VLC case, it would be
"safe" as
> > long as the phonon-vlc backend was not used for KDE Plasma (we
> > don't
> > use it by default, but someone could swap it in from a third-party
> > build).
> >
> > It can get fairly complicated, and it's always been a bad idea to
> > update the desktop software while it's running from within the
> > terminal of the said desktop, because you can lead to a scenario
> > where
> > you've temporarily caused a broken state that would only be fixed
> > by
> > rebooting anyway. For the majority of users, offline updates for
> > packages is the correct behavior.
> >
> > That said, yes, Plasma 5.22 (coming in a month) will introduce a
> > user-accessible option to turn it off.
> >
> >
>
> Is there any way for the packages themselves to "request" offline
> updates? I agree that updating plasma, kf5-*, etc.. live is not a
> good
> idea. But something like nano for instance shouldn't need to be
> updated
> offline.
>
It is possible, but basically none of the PackageKit backends tell
PackageKit this information, so the frontends are working blindly to
try to do the right thing. I'm trying to figure out if I can extend
the DNF backend to start offering that information.
Since Fedora has updateinfo and we (Fedora KDE team) set the value
correctly when we submit updates, it should be possible for me to
plumb this through. It looks like I'll need to extend libdnf's API
first to do it, so that's going to take some time.
Hello,
Sorry I will ask a complete off-topic question.
I had remove packageKit of my system because it didn’t work well and
used a second database of rpms, today after reviewing the bugs opened
about 10 years ago, I found this one [1] that took 5 years to close but
they didn’t answer my question, the packagekit already uses the same
base of dnf data?
As far I'm concerned I would be happy if we drop packagekit
dependencies.
Best regards,
[1]
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1256108#c44
--
Sérgio M. B.
9:38 a.m.
On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 10:11 AM Sérgio Basto <sergio(a)serjux.com> wrote:
On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 09:28 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <
> boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/9/21 10:10 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <
> > > boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5/9/21 9:08 AM, Patrick Boutilier wrote:
> > > > > On 5/6/21 4:06 PM, Tomáš Trnka wrote:
> > > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised by the
> > > > > > new Plasma
> > > > > > update
> > > > > > notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the
previous
> > > > > > plasma-pk-updates
> > > > > > thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the most
> > > > > > featureful of package
> > > > > > managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with
Discover
> > > > > > that make it
> > > > > > pretty much useless for me:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > – There seems to be no way to select which updates to
> > > > > > install. All I
> > > > > > can see
> > > > > > is a list of available updates with a button to install
all
> > > > > > of them,
> > > > > > but no
> > > > > > way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use
> > > > > > commandline DNF with a
> > > > > > whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job
done, but the
> > > > > > point of a
> > > > > > GUI is
> > > > > > to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
> > > > > > – I can't seem to find the description of individual
package
> > > > > > updates
> > > > > > (the short
> > > > > > changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click a
> > > > > > particular
> > > > > > package,
> > > > > > together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again, getting
these
> > > > > > any other
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
> > > > > > – The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do
anything
> > > > > > directly, I
> > > > > > have to
> > > > > > wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend a
long
> > > > > > while
> > > > > > loading the
> > > > > > updates, which is much more disruptive than the few
seconds
> > > > > > needed to
> > > > > > trigger
> > > > > > updating through plasma-pk-updates.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Even worse is that every single update requires a reboot. I
> > > > > just took a
> > > > > fully updated system and then downgraded vlc. Updated with
> > > > > Discover and
> > > > > even though it only had to update vlc-core-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64
> > > > > and
> > > > > vlc-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 it still required a reboot.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Looks like this will be an option in 5.22 .
> > > > https://invent.kde.org/plasma/discover/-/merge_requests/111
> > > >
> > > > Although I am not sure how doing an online vlc update will cause
> > > > an
> > > > "unstable system". It wouldn't be so bad if there were
not almost
> > > > daily
> > > > updates available.
> > > >
> > >
> > > We don't have a heuristic for differentiating what a "safe
update"
> > > and
> > > an "unsafe update" would be. In the VLC case, it would be
"safe" as
> > > long as the phonon-vlc backend was not used for KDE Plasma (we
> > > don't
> > > use it by default, but someone could swap it in from a third-party
> > > build).
> > >
> > > It can get fairly complicated, and it's always been a bad idea to
> > > update the desktop software while it's running from within the
> > > terminal of the said desktop, because you can lead to a scenario
> > > where
> > > you've temporarily caused a broken state that would only be fixed
> > > by
> > > rebooting anyway. For the majority of users, offline updates for
> > > packages is the correct behavior.
> > >
> > > That said, yes, Plasma 5.22 (coming in a month) will introduce a
> > > user-accessible option to turn it off.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Is there any way for the packages themselves to "request" offline
> > updates? I agree that updating plasma, kf5-*, etc.. live is not a
> > good
> > idea. But something like nano for instance shouldn't need to be
> > updated
> > offline.
> >
>
> It is possible, but basically none of the PackageKit backends tell
> PackageKit this information, so the frontends are working blindly to
> try to do the right thing. I'm trying to figure out if I can extend
> the DNF backend to start offering that information.
>
> Since Fedora has updateinfo and we (Fedora KDE team) set the value
> correctly when we submit updates, it should be possible for me to
> plumb this through. It looks like I'll need to extend libdnf's API
> first to do it, so that's going to take some time.
Hello,
Sorry I will ask a complete off-topic question.
I had remove packageKit of my system because it didn’t work well and
used a second database of rpms, today after reviewing the bugs opened
about 10 years ago, I found this one [1] that took 5 years to close but
they didn’t answer my question, the packagekit already uses the same
base of dnf data?
As far I'm concerned I would be happy if we drop packagekit
dependencies.
It doesn't use a second RPM database. It uses the same one as DNF.
Over the past couple of years, the PackageKit DNF backend has been
reworked to respect more global settings and behaviors. There's still
more work to do, but it's at least being worked on.
If you don't like PackageKit based stuff, you're free to use dnfdragora instead.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
12:17 p.m.
On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 10:38 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 10:11 AM Sérgio Basto
<sergio(a)serjux.com>
wrote:
>
> On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 09:28 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <
> > boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/9/21 10:10 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 8:19 AM Patrick Boutilier <
> > > > boutilpj(a)ednet.ns.ca> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 5/9/21 9:08 AM, Patrick Boutilier wrote:
> > > > > > On 5/6/21 4:06 PM, Tomáš Trnka wrote:
> > > > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > After updating to F34, I was unpleasantly surprised
by
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > new Plasma
> > > > > > > update
> > > > > > > notifier (plasma-discover-notifier). Even though the
> > > > > > > previous
> > > > > > > plasma-pk-updates
> > > > > > > thing had its quirks and Apper also wasn't the
most
> > > > > > > featureful of package
> > > > > > > managers, I still ran into a handful of issues with
> > > > > > > Discover
> > > > > > > that make it
> > > > > > > pretty much useless for me:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > – There seems to be no way to select which updates to
> > > > > > > install. All I
> > > > > > > can see
> > > > > > > is a list of available updates with a button to
install
> > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > of them,
> > > > > > > but no
> > > > > > > way to pick and choose a subset. (Yes, I could use
> > > > > > > commandline DNF with a
> > > > > > > whole bunch of "-x" arguments to get the job
done, but
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > point of a
> > > > > > > GUI is
> > > > > > > to make things more user friendly, isn't it?)
> > > > > > > – I can't seem to find the description of
individual
> > > > > > > package
> > > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > (the short
> > > > > > > changelog that plasma-pk-updates shows when you click
a
> > > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > package,
> > > > > > > together with Bugzilla or Bodhi links). Again,
getting
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > any other
> > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > than through the GUI updater is a real hassle.
> > > > > > > – The tray notifier doesn't let me actually do
anything
> > > > > > > directly, I
> > > > > > > have to
> > > > > > > wait for it to open a full Discover window and spend
a
> > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > while
> > > > > > > loading the
> > > > > > > updates, which is much more disruptive than the few
> > > > > > > seconds
> > > > > > > needed to
> > > > > > > trigger
> > > > > > > updating through plasma-pk-updates.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even worse is that every single update requires a reboot.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > just took a
> > > > > > fully updated system and then downgraded vlc. Updated
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > Discover and
> > > > > > even though it only had to update vlc-core-3.0.13-
> > > > > > 1.fc34.x86_64
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > vlc-3.0.13-1.fc34.x86_64 it still required a reboot.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Looks like this will be an option in 5.22 .
> > > > > https://invent.kde.org/plasma/discover/-/merge_requests/111
> > > > >
> > > > > Although I am not sure how doing an online vlc update will
> > > > > cause
> > > > > an
> > > > > "unstable system". It wouldn't be so bad if there
were not
> > > > > almost
> > > > > daily
> > > > > updates available.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We don't have a heuristic for differentiating what a "safe
> > > > update"
> > > > and
> > > > an "unsafe update" would be. In the VLC case, it would be
> > > > "safe" as
> > > > long as the phonon-vlc backend was not used for KDE Plasma
> > > > (we
> > > > don't
> > > > use it by default, but someone could swap it in from a third-
> > > > party
> > > > build).
> > > >
> > > > It can get fairly complicated, and it's always been a bad
> > > > idea to
> > > > update the desktop software while it's running from within
> > > > the
> > > > terminal of the said desktop, because you can lead to a
> > > > scenario
> > > > where
> > > > you've temporarily caused a broken state that would only be
> > > > fixed
> > > > by
> > > > rebooting anyway. For the majority of users, offline updates
> > > > for
> > > > packages is the correct behavior.
> > > >
> > > > That said, yes, Plasma 5.22 (coming in a month) will
> > > > introduce a
> > > > user-accessible option to turn it off.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Is there any way for the packages themselves to "request"
> > > offline
> > > updates? I agree that updating plasma, kf5-*, etc.. live is not
> > > a
> > > good
> > > idea. But something like nano for instance shouldn't need to be
> > > updated
> > > offline.
> > >
> >
> > It is possible, but basically none of the PackageKit backends
> > tell
> > PackageKit this information, so the frontends are working blindly
> > to
> > try to do the right thing. I'm trying to figure out if I can
> > extend
> > the DNF backend to start offering that information.
> >
> > Since Fedora has updateinfo and we (Fedora KDE team) set the
> > value
> > correctly when we submit updates, it should be possible for me to
> > plumb this through. It looks like I'll need to extend libdnf's
> > API
> > first to do it, so that's going to take some time.
>
> Hello,
> Sorry I will ask a complete off-topic question.
> I had remove packageKit of my system because it didn’t work well
> and
> used a second database of rpms, today after reviewing the bugs
> opened
> about 10 years ago, I found this one [1] that took 5 years to close
> but
> they didn’t answer my question, the packagekit already uses the
> same
> base of dnf data?
> As far I'm concerned I would be happy if we drop packagekit
> dependencies.
>
It doesn't use a second RPM database. It uses the same one as DNF.
Over the past couple of years, the PackageKit DNF backend has been
reworked to respect more global settings and behaviors. There's still
more work to do, but it's at least being worked on.
If you don't like PackageKit based stuff, you're free to use
dnfdragora instead.
It is not about not liking the PackageKit, I felt that the packagekit
never worked well and nobody cares, for many years, so I give up on use
it (around 2015). I started not having notifications of updates and I
don't even dislike it, now I update when I remember to check it :D .
Best regards,
--
Sérgio M. B.
8:53 a.m.
On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 09:10 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
That said, yes, Plasma 5.22 (coming in a month) will introduce a
user-accessible option to turn it off.
This morning I did my regular system update with dnf and rebooted the
machine. Almost immediately Discover told me there were over 30 pending
updates. I checked again with dnf and there were actually 4.
I just removed Discover. Nothing else seemed to depend on it. I'll also
note that I had previously removed it in F33, but the upgrade to F34
re-installed it for some reason.
poc
1076
days inactive
1079
days old
9 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Neal Gompa -
Patrick Boutilier -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Sérgio Basto -
Tomáš Trnka