New Discover

[Jonathan Ryshpan]

When Discover reports an upgrade with system implications (say a new
kernel) and the user allows the upgrade (by clicking the appropriate
button):
   1. Discover downloads the files for the upgrade
   2. Discover requests a reboot.  After the user allows the reboot
   3. Discover reboots the system
   4. Discover installs the new kernel (or whatever)
   5. Discover reboots the system (again)
What is the reason for the additional reboot before installing the new
kernel (step 3)?

-- 
Sincerely Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt; Dance, as if nobody's
watching, Love, as if you've never been hurt, Sing, as if no one can
hear you, Work, as if you don't need the money, Live, as if heaven is
on earth. -- Rumi

[Rex Dieter]

That's just how PackageKit offline updates are implemented (not specific to
discover).

It is required, for example, to allow one to use newly installed kernels.

-- Rex

On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 2:36 PM Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt; wrote:

>  When Discover reports an upgrade with system implications (say a new
>  kernel) and the user allows the upgrade (by clicking the appropriate
>  button):
>
>     1. Discover downloads the files for the upgrade
>     2. Discover requests a reboot.  After the user allows the reboot
>     3. Discover reboots the system
>     4. Discover installs the new kernel (or whatever)
>     5. Discover reboots the system (again)
>
>  What is the reason for the additional reboot before installing the new
>  kernel (step 3)?
>
>  --
>
>  Sincerely Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt;
>
>  	Dance, as if nobody's watching,
>  	Love, as if you've never been hurt,
>  	Sing, as if no one can hear you,
>  	Work, as if you don't need the money,
>  	Live, as if heaven is on earth.
>  	-- Rumi
>
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>

Really? Discover seems to insist on reboot for *every* update. Apper,
on the other hand certainly doesn't, even for system updates. I
understand they don't get applied until rebooting.

However, Discover seems to list lots of things as "system" which really
aren't. I've just got notification of a SkypeForLinux update and sure
enough, after I install it, Discover says a reboot is required. I
understand I don't have to do it, but surely better to exclude poor
information than simply to know, which not veryone will, that it can be
ignored.

Slightly annoyed of the UK

On Thu, 2021-07-08 at 15:12 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
>  That's just how PackageKit offline updates are implemented (not
>  specific to discover).  
>  
>  It is required, for example, to allow one to use newly installed
>  kernels.
>  -- Rex
>  
>  On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 2:36 PM Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt;
>  wrote:
>  > When Discover reports an upgrade with system implications (say a
>  > new kernel) and the user allows the upgrade (by clicking the
>  > appropriate button):
>  >    1. Discover downloads the files for the upgrade
>  >    2. Discover requests a reboot.  After the user allows the reboot
>  >    3. Discover reboots the system
>  >    4. Discover installs the new kernel (or whatever)
>  >    5. Discover reboots the system (again)
>  > What is the reason for the additional reboot before installing the
>  > new kernel (step 3)?
>  > 
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > kde mailing list -- kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
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[Jonathan Ryshpan]

I'm still don't understand.  It's easy to see why one reboot is
necessary, but why two?

On Thu, 2021-07-08 at 15:12 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
>  That's just how PackageKit offline updates are implemented (not
>  specific to discover).  
>  
>  It is required, for example, to allow one to use newly installed
>  kernels.
>  
>  On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 2:36 PM Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt;
>  wrote:
>  > When Discover reports an upgrade with system implications (say a
>  > new kernel) and the user allows the upgrade (by clicking the
>  > appropriate button):
>  > 1. Discover downloads the files for the upgrade
>  > 2. Discover requests a reboot.  After the user allows the reboot
>  > 3. Discover reboots the system
>  > 4. Discover installs the new kernel (or whatever)
>  > 5. Discover reboots the system (again)
>  > What is the reason for the additional reboot before installing the
>  > new kernel (step 3)? 
-- 
Sincerely Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt; We are sorry, but the
number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90
degrees and try again.

[José Abílio Matos]

On Thursday, 8 July 2021 21.45.05 WEST Mark @ GMail wrote:
>  Really? Discover seems to insist on reboot for *every* update.
> Apper,
>  on the other hand certainly doesn't, even for system updates. I
>  understand they don't get applied until rebooting.
>  
>  However, Discover seems to list lots of things as "system" which really
>  aren't. I've just got notification of a SkypeForLinux update and sure
>  enough, after I install it, Discover says a reboot is required. I
>  understand I don't have to do it, but surely better to exclude poor
>  information than simply to know, which not veryone will, that it can be
>  ignored.
>  
>  Slightly annoyed of the UK 
To be completely safe you really need two reboots. You do not want to change 
the underlying environment using the upgrade, and precisely for that reason 
you want to reboot after installing the updates. In my book that means two 
reboots to be really, really safe.

Most of the times we can get away without rebooting.

Point in case, I do not use Discover, or any other, graphical application I 
usually update python3-dnf-plugin-tracer.

At the end of the update tell me what programs needs to be restarted. As an 
example in the morning I got:
....
You should restart:
  * Some applications using:
      sudo systemctl restart rngd
      sudo systemctl restart udisks2

For more information run:
    sudo tracer -iat 1625724447.206398

Another time I got (kernel update):
There are:
  - 1 processes requiring reboot

For more information run:
    sudo tracer -iat 1625774903.301882

BTW for Plasma 5.22 that will be optional:
https://pointieststick.com/2021/04/16/this-week-in-kde-offline-updates-ar...

Also when searching for this link I got this:
https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=309&t=170775

From there it seems that running
kwriteconfig5 --file discoverrc --group Software --key UseOfflineUpdates \
--type bool false

Allows to disable that feature now.

Again IMHO the process of using two reboots in the only that will work in any 
situation although most of the times it is not really necessary. One example 
is when the updates only contain leaf applications that are not being used at 
the moment.

I guess that a general solution to work in all cases is very hard (because of 
the different indirections that can occur in the kernel/user space).

Regards,
-- 
José Abílio

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2021-07-08 at 22:51 +0100, José Abílio Matos wrote:
>  To be completely safe you really need two reboots. You do not want
> to
>  change 
>  the underlying environment using the upgrade, and precisely for that
>  reason 
>  you want to reboot after installing the updates. In my book that
>  means
>  two 
>  reboots to be really, really safe.
>   
Gnome does the same thing.

>  Most of the times we can get away without rebooting.
>  
>  Point in case, I do not use Discover, or any other, graphical
>  application I 
>  usually update python3-dnf-plugin-tracer. 
Me too.

poc

[Ed Greshko]

On 09/07/2021 05:51, José Abílio Matos wrote:
>  Point in case, I do not use Discover, or any other, graphical
> application I usually update python3-dnf-plugin-tracer. 
FWIW, I use dnf to update and then run tracer.  That is, I don't use the plugin.  It
has been a long time so I forgot
why I didn't like the plugin.

Anyway, with the running of tracer I can decide if I want to restart some processes,
logout/login, a combination of both,
or reboot.  And, at times, I did find that not following the advice of tracer strange
things could creep in.

-- 
Remind me to ignore comments which aren't germane to the thread.

[Barry]

>  On 8 Jul 2021, at 22:32, Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt;
> wrote:
>  
>  
>  I'm still don't understand.  It's easy to see why one reboot is necessary,
> but why two? 
I found that if I update from a logged in KDE session there was a good
chance that after dnf competed the update the desk top would stop working.
I could not log out or request a reboot.

This is why the first reboot is needed.

The 2nd reboot is needed after the kernel is installed.

Barry

>  
> > On Thu, 2021-07-08 at 15:12 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
> > That's just how PackageKit offline updates are implemented (not specific to
> discover).  
> > 
> > It is required, for example, to allow one to use newly installed kernels.
> > 
> >> On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 2:36 PM Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt;
> wrote:
> >> When Discover reports an upgrade with system implications (say a new kernel) and
> the user allows the upgrade (by clicking the appropriate button):
> >> Discover downloads the files for the upgrade
> >> Discover requests a reboot.  After the user allows the reboot
> >> Discover reboots the system
> >> Discover installs the new kernel (or whatever)
> >> Discover reboots the system (again)
> >> What is the reason for the additional reboot before installing the new kernel
> (step 3)?
>  
>  -- 
>  Sincerely Jonathan Ryshpan <jonrysh(a)pacbell.net&gt;
>  
>  	We are sorry, but the number you have dialed is
>  	imaginary.  Please rotate your phone 90 degrees
>  	and try again.
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If I could re-ignite this conversation.

I think Discover is at fault in some situations. It *always* asks for a
reboot after an update, even if it really isn't necessary.

I have just updated a single package, on request, via Discover and it
has, as always, said that a reboot is required.

That (single) package was Google Chrome.

I find it hard to believe that it really is a requirement to reboot in
this situation. Am I mistaken?

Mark
>

[Patrick Boutilier]

On 7/21/21 5:02 AM, Mark @ GMail wrote:
>  If I could re-ignite this conversation.
>  
>  I think Discover is at fault in some situations. It *always* asks for a
>  reboot after an update, even if it really isn't necessary.
>  
>  I have just updated a single package, on request, via Discover and it
>  has, as always, said that a reboot is required.
>  
>  That (single) package was Google Chrome.
>  
>  I find it hard to believe that it really is a requirement to reboot in
>  this situation. Am I mistaken? 
Wants a reboot for anything. For instance, take a fully updated system 
and run:

yum downgrade nano


Discover will want to reboot to upgrade nano.



>  
>  Mark
> >
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Bug report filed. Not sure if it helps to chime in or not.

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=440126

On Wed, 2021-07-21 at 07:38 -0300, Patrick Boutilier wrote:
>  On 7/21/21 5:02 AM, Mark @ GMail wrote:
>  > If I could re-ignite this conversation.
>  > 
>  > I think Discover is at fault in some situations. It *always* asks for
>  > a
>  > reboot after an update, even if it really isn't necessary.
>  > 
>  > I have just updated a single package, on request, via Discover and it
>  > has, as always, said that a reboot is required.
>  > 
>  > That (single) package was Google Chrome.
>  > 
>  > I find it hard to believe that it really is a requirement to reboot
>  > in
>  > this situation. Am I mistaken?
>  
>  Wants a reboot for anything. For instance, take a fully updated system 
>  and run:
>  
>  yum downgrade nano
>  
>  
>  Discover will want to reboot to upgrade nano.
>  
>  
>  
>  > 
>  > Mark
>  > > 
>  > _______________________________________________
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