Hey all, question for the List:
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser? Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers. Is there any specific reason that Konqueror has stuck around as the default for so long?
--Eric--
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 12:06:03 -0400 Eric Griffith egriffith92@gmail.com wrote:
Hey all, question for the List:
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser? Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers. Is there any specific reason that Konqueror has stuck around as the default for so long?
--Eric--
*Unofically* Konqueror is officially part of KDE, "we" want what KDE provides, not sure about rekonq now I guess there are no new releases for a long time? Rekonq can be compared with features to konqueror + kwebkitpart (which is default on fedora) using qtwebkit instead of khtml, so I guess it doesn't provide much more (but possibly less without some non-critical features), there are people here who can tell you much more about differences.
Firefox is not integrated well with kde, it uses GTK+ (for some parts), it doesn't integrate with kwallet ...
I remember I was on one of the "recent" meetings (KDE SIG) (possibly few months ago), someone mentioned this about possible change of default browser.
Thanks for the reply BitLord.
I guess now I'm wondering what the goal of the KDE spin is then. Does the KDE SIG want to provide what upstream gives, or what they think is best for user experience with a KDE flair? If it's the former then why do we ship a non default KDE theme? Because that definitely isn't "what upstream provides." Upstream provides Breeze-- full stop.
If we want to provide best user experience with a KDE flair then swapping some applications around should be an easy yes/no vote, since we as a spin are already violating the "what upstream provides" idea.
Hell not even Suse or Kubuntu, who are far more KDE centric than us, ship with KDE fully stock. They voted for best user experience, even if that means some "KDE apps", like Konqueror, get binned. On Jul 24, 2015 14:53, "bitlord" bitlord0xff@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 12:06:03 -0400 Eric Griffith egriffith92@gmail.com wrote:
Hey all, question for the List:
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser? Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers. Is there any specific reason that Konqueror has stuck around as the default for so long?
--Eric--
*Unofically* Konqueror is officially part of KDE, "we" want what KDE provides, not sure about rekonq now I guess there are no new releases for a long time? Rekonq can be compared with features to konqueror + kwebkitpart (which is default on fedora) using qtwebkit instead of khtml, so I guess it doesn't provide much more (but possibly less without some non-critical features), there are people here who can tell you much more about differences.
Firefox is not integrated well with kde, it uses GTK+ (for some parts), it doesn't integrate with kwallet ...
I remember I was on one of the "recent" meetings (KDE SIG) (possibly few months ago), someone mentioned this about possible change of default browser. _______________________________________________ kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 15:08:07 -0400 Eric Griffith egriffith92@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the reply BitLord.
I guess now I'm wondering what the goal of the KDE spin is then. Does the KDE SIG want to provide what upstream gives, or what they think is best for user experience with a KDE flair? If it's the former then why do we ship a non default KDE theme? Because that definitely isn't "what upstream provides." Upstream provides Breeze-- full stop.
I guess it is mostly what upstream gives, but sometimes it is not possible to do it. Not sure what is wrong with the theme, some theme names (desktop/plasma theme ...) are named fedora*<release>, but they are mostly upstream theme/s with some minor changes to enable fedora branding or artwork/wallpaper (mostly minimal changes), also I guess "we" have specific sddm theme which is with "fedora branding".
If we want to provide best user experience with a KDE flair then swapping some applications around should be an easy yes/no vote, since we as a spin are already violating the "what upstream provides" idea.
Yes, it is possible to vote for/against some features/defaults, it is mostly done within KDESIG (by its members), on meetings ..., but for the browser I'm not sure is there any alternative which integrates well with KDE, and doesn't break the current experience. I like konqueror, I like some of its features, but I also admit it isn't perfect, and for "some" websites I also use alternatives, mostly firefox.
Hell not even Suse or Kubuntu, who are far more KDE centric than us, ship with KDE fully stock. They voted for best user experience, even if that means some "KDE apps", like Konqueror, get binned.
I understand, but it is very easy to install second web browser, and keep "~default" KDE experience with KDE spin. (what is currently provided by fedora KDE spin)
As I said before, there are other people also interested in changing default web browsers in Fedora-KDE, I don't see an alternative (good one), but I do understand them, because I also use other browser for some things konqueror doesn't work properly.
Eric Griffith composed on 2015-07-24 15:08 (UTC-0400):
I guess now I'm wondering what the goal of the KDE spin is then. Does the KDE SIG want to provide what upstream gives, or what they think is best for user experience with a KDE flair? If it's the former then why do we ship a non default KDE theme? Because that definitely isn't "what upstream provides."
Has there been anything in the default Fedora themes, other than starter icon, splash and wallpaper, that differs from upstream? If yes, I've not noticed.
Upstream provides Breeze-- full stop.
Full stop good! Breeze is KDE's first and only default theme I can remember objecting to. Its kaleidescope splash/wallpaper is childish & creepy, while its monochrome remainder is poor in A11Y/U7Y aspects, no white, and apparent black isn't even close to genuine black where used for text, emulating widespread awful current web styling.
http://www.nngroup.com/articles/low-contrast/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/roots-minimalism-web-design/
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
Upstream provides Breeze-- full stop.
Full stop good! Breeze is KDE's first and only default theme I can remember objecting to.
Well, it's a matter of personal preference. After using it awhile, I actually like it. It's not deleted from the Fedora distribution... it's quite easy to use it (I do) if you wish.
I don't view the default theme the same as browser default however. One is related to branding of the distribution, the other is related to DE application defaults. Konqueror for better or worse is it. It's quite easy to change that also. Probably would be better to discuss the defaults with upstream.
The issue I have with browsers other than Chrome or Firefox is that they just don't have a good selection of extensions; and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I've grown dependent on my gmail, calendar, lastpass, authy and aria2c integration.
Gerald B. Cox composed on 2015-07-24 17:43 (UTC-0700):
The issue I have with browsers other than Chrome or Firefox is that they just don't have a good selection of extensions; and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I've grown dependent on my gmail, calendar, lastpass, authy and aria2c integration.
Is it that much trouble for you to change your own default to the one you prefer? Is your preference for extensions, and the bloat and potential for bugs inherent in less well tested components in sync with a typical new Fedora/KDE user? Have you tried Qupzilla? Most popular extensions are already integrated in it, and yet it's a smaller package than other browsers.
Well the defaults matter quite a bit for new users... Defaults don't matter as much for existing users, they know what they want and how to get it. I know to just pull up apper or konsole and install Firefox. I don't care about me. I'm thinking of, and from the perspective of, new users. But new users? They're gonna know Firefox and Chrom(e/ium), anything else is gonna be an immediate moment of confusion. On Jul 24, 2015 8:56 PM, "Felix Miata" mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
Gerald B. Cox composed on 2015-07-24 17:43 (UTC-0700):
The issue I have with browsers other than Chrome or Firefox is that they just don't have a good selection of extensions; and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I've grown dependent on my gmail, calendar, lastpass, authy and aria2c integration.
Is it that much trouble for you to change your own default to the one you prefer? Is your preference for extensions, and the bloat and potential for bugs inherent in less well tested components in sync with a typical new Fedora/KDE user? Have you tried Qupzilla? Most popular extensions are already integrated in it, and yet it's a smaller package than other browsers. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
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Eric Griffith composed on 2015-07-24 21:06 (UTC-0400):
I'm thinking of, and from the perspective of, new users. But new users? They're gonna know Firefox and Chrom(e/ium), anything else is gonna be an immediate moment of confusion.
Probably depends on how one defines "new user". Confusion also occurs every few months when browsers change UI again. A really new user probably isn't going to be confused if he can find a back button, reload button, urlbar and search box, and sees results expected when clicking on a link in an email. Those who think they "need" particular extensions probably aren't really new at all.
Felix Miata wrote:
Probably depends on how one defines "new user". Confusion also occurs every few months when browsers change UI again.
I'll also point out that Konqueror is actually a browser that DOESN'T change UI all the time, and that's another reason I like it.
Kevin Kofler
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Eric Griffith egriffith92@gmail.com wrote:
Well the defaults matter quite a bit for new users... Defaults don't matter as much for existing users, they know what they want and how to get it. I know to just pull up apper or konsole and install Firefox. I don't care about me. I'm thinking of, and from the perspective of, new users. But new users? They're gonna know Firefox and Chrom(e/ium), anything else is gonna be an immediate moment of confusion.
I agree that defaults are important, but if you're running KDE in Fedora, you're not running the default; so you've made a explicit choice - that said, you should expect the default to be the KDE default (which is Konqueror).
On Friday 24 July 2015 18:43:36 Gerald B. Cox wrote:
I agree that defaults are important, but if you're running KDE in Fedora, you're not running the default; so you've made a explicit choice - that said, you should expect the default to be the KDE default (which is Konqueror).
The only web browser included with Plasma is the web browser widget, not Konqueror. Konqueror is just part of a bundle of random applications whose maintainers find it beneficial to ship on a coordinated release cycle. If being part of KDE Applications makes an app the default Fedora has to follow, you'd have to replace Amarok with Juk.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 5:56 PM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
The issue I have with browsers other than Chrome or Firefox is that they just don't have a good selection of extensions; and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I've grown dependent on my gmail, calendar, lastpass, authy and aria2c integration.
Is it that much trouble for you to change your own default to the one you prefer? Is your preference for extensions, and the bloat and potential for bugs inherent in less well tested components in sync with a typical new Fedora/KDE user? Have you tried Qupzilla? Most popular extensions are already integrated in it, and yet it's a smaller package than other browsers.
No it's not, and I do change the default from Konqueror. What I also said in the previous message was that since Konqueror is the default for the KDE DE, perhaps it would be better to have a discussion of changing it (if you are looking for that) upstream. I don't have any issue whatsoever with Konqueror being the KDE default; and I'm not wanting, expecting or asking the KDE defaults to be overridden by the Fedora KDE support team. They are fine as they are IMO. I was simply stating my opinion on the state of other open source browsers versus Firefox and Chrome. They just don't have the bells and whistles.
Gerald B. Cox composed on 2015-07-24 18:34 (UTC-0700):
I was simply stating my opinion on the state of other open source browsers versus Firefox and Chrome. They just don't have the bells and whistles.
Exactly. Less confusing for "new" people, if really less is the case. But IMO, Konq has some good bells and whistles that "new" people might never get a chance to notice if something else was default.
On 24 July 2015 at 19:53, bitlord bitlord0xff@gmail.com wrote:
*Unofically* Konqueror is officially part of KDE, "we" want what KDE provides, not sure about rekonq now I guess there are no new releases for a long time? Rekonq can be compared with features to konqueror + kwebkitpart (which is default on fedora) using qtwebkit instead of khtml, so I guess it doesn't provide much more (but possibly less without some non-critical features), there are people here who can tell you much more about differences.
Firefox is not integrated well with kde, it uses GTK+ (for some parts), it doesn't integrate with kwallet ...
I remember I was on one of the "recent" meetings (KDE SIG) (possibly few months ago), someone mentioned this about possible change of default browser.
From my point of view integration with kwallet is not something I
actually want, a browser that works is. This is why I'm happily using Firefox on KDE. I was *delighted* to find kwallet has integrated itself into git. Ah, wait, I mean, resigned. *resigned* to find kwallet has integrated itself into git.
On 28/07/15 10:36, Ian Malone wrote:
On 24 July 2015 at 19:53, bitlord bitlord0xff@gmail.com wrote:
*Unofically* Konqueror is officially part of KDE, "we" want what KDE provides, not sure about rekonq now I guess there are no new releases for a long time? Rekonq can be compared with features to konqueror + kwebkitpart (which is default on fedora) using qtwebkit instead of khtml, so I guess it doesn't provide much more (but possibly less without some non-critical features), there are people here who can tell you much more about differences.
Firefox is not integrated well with kde, it uses GTK+ (for some parts), it doesn't integrate with kwallet ...
I remember I was on one of the "recent" meetings (KDE SIG) (possibly few months ago), someone mentioned this about possible change of default browser.
From my point of view integration with kwallet is not something I actually want, a browser that works is. This is why I'm happily using Firefox on KDE. I was *delighted* to find kwallet has integrated itself into git. Ah, wait, I mean, resigned. *resigned* to find kwallet has integrated itself into git.
For years, without any deep investigation of the philosophy, I've used KDE, Firefox and Thunderbird, with Konqueror as file manager and viewer. It WFM; I think I would prefer to be able to restrict Konq to offline use, to avoid some confusion, but haven't found a way to do that.
John P
Am 28.07.2015 um 13:14 schrieb John Pilkington:
For years, without any deep investigation of the philosophy, I've used KDE, Firefox and Thunderbird, with Konqueror as file manager and viewer. It WFM; I think I would prefer to be able to restrict Konq to offline use, to avoid some confusion, but haven't found a way to do that
because that makes no sense at all
Konqueror as a file-manager is supposed to work with sftp and ftp out-of-the-box instead a crippled thing like Finder on OSX or the windows explorer
since the network protocols are implemented as kio-slave and http/https is just another kio-slave there is no "offline use", if you don't want to connect to a remote ressource just don't type the URL
On 28/07/15 12:38, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 28.07.2015 um 13:14 schrieb John Pilkington:
For years, without any deep investigation of the philosophy, I've used KDE, Firefox and Thunderbird, with Konqueror as file manager and viewer. It WFM; I think I would prefer to be able to restrict Konq to offline use, to avoid some confusion, but haven't found a way to do that
because that makes no sense at all
Konqueror as a file-manager is supposed to work with sftp and ftp out-of-the-box instead a crippled thing like Finder on OSX or the windows explorer
since the network protocols are implemented as kio-slave and http/https is just another kio-slave there is no "offline use", if you don't want to connect to a remote ressource just don't type the URL
OK, thanks for the explanation. The 'inconvenience' happens if I'm viewing a saved file that includes a link, but didn't want to reactivate it. The solution is to stay awake, I suppose.
On Friday 24 July 2015 12:06:03 Eric Griffith wrote:
Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers.
I think such a discussion makes more sense once the Fiber browser is out. Maybe it'll be a better candidate.
Markus Slopianka wrote:
I think such a discussion makes more sense once the Fiber browser is out. Maybe it'll be a better candidate.
Judging from https://kver.wordpress.com/ , no, it won't. At least not any time soon. It is an experiment by one person started approximately 1 month ago, and it is based on QtWebEngine, which is a problem rather than a solution.
Kevin Kofler
Eric Griffith composed on 2015-07-24 12:06 (UTC-0400):
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser? Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers. Is there any specific reason that Konqueror has stuck around as the default for so long?
Where is it you think it needs to go?
1-Its UI is mature (predictable, comfortable for those who need to get work done)
2-It incorporates a choice of two rendering engines, one matching the functionality of Chromium (WebKit), the other that enables using some web sites (largely older) as intended without any need for them to be restyled (KHTML; functionality discarded from all major name browsers: sizing in physical units that are accurate when logical display density matches display device density: pt, in, cm, mm; Geckos can so render if restyled using proprietary mozmm CSS units, but in others it's entirely impossible.).
On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 3:08 AM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
Eric Griffith composed on 2015-07-24 12:06 (UTC-0400):
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser? Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers. Is there any specific reason that Konqueror has stuck around as the default for so long?
Where is it you think it needs to go?
1-Its UI is mature (predictable, comfortable for those who need to get work done)
2-It incorporates a choice of two rendering engines, one matching the functionality of Chromium (WebKit),
It does NOT match the functionality of Chrome
http://html5test.com/ Konqueror with WebKit 355 out of 555 Chrome 526 out of 555 Firefox 467 out of 555
Chrome uses Blink, a fork of WebKit, even when Chrome used WebKit, it was faster and offered better HTML5 support (maybe kwebkitpart used an older version of WebKit).
I know that I talk about users I see, developers and new converts to Linux, but none of them uses Konqueror, the other two are much richer (HTML5, extensions, etc.) and intuitive. One basic thing in Konq, when I write google, I can't just press ctrl+enter to go to google.com, I know everything is customizable but defaults are important especially in first impressions.
the other that enables using some web sites (largely older) as intended without any need for them to be restyled (KHTML; functionality discarded from all major name browsers: sizing in physical units that are accurate when logical display density matches display device density: pt, in, cm, mm; Geckos can so render if restyled using proprietary mozmm CSS units, but in others it's entirely impossible.). -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ _______________________________________________ kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Mustafa Muhammad composed on 2015-07-25 08:40 (UTC+0300):
Felix Miata wrote:
1-Its UI is mature (predictable, comfortable for those who need to get work done)
2-It incorporates a choice of two rendering engines, one matching the functionality of Chromium (WebKit),
It does NOT match the functionality of Chrome
http://html5test.com/ Konqueror with WebKit 355 out of 555 Chrome 526 out of 555 Firefox 467 out of 555
Chrome uses Blink, a fork of WebKit, even when Chrome used WebKit, it was faster and offered better HTML5 support (maybe kwebkitpart used an older version of WebKit).
So Konq matches Safari rather than Chrom*. Big deal. HTML5 is a moving target, in constant development, with as yet no final spec. The browser engine developers are free to spend time implementing proposals and expectations as they see fit to justify spending time on a spec that may again change or might be more easily implemented by waiting and working it in alongside some expected upcoming change.
What really matters is not how many out of 555 or whatever the combination of locked-in and still mutable is met, but how well any engine syncs up with results from its competition on real web pages written and styled by real web stylists, so that special adaptations or workarounds directed to specific engines are not required to get results matching cross-browser. It also matters whether a browser can do what the user wants. Far behind as KHTML is behind the others, it can do things others cannot, and only Konq offers it.
On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 9:12 AM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad composed on 2015-07-25 08:40 (UTC+0300):
Felix Miata wrote:
1-Its UI is mature (predictable, comfortable for those who need to get work done)
2-It incorporates a choice of two rendering engines, one matching the functionality of Chromium (WebKit),
It does NOT match the functionality of Chrome
http://html5test.com/ Konqueror with WebKit 355 out of 555 Chrome 526 out of 555 Firefox 467 out of 555
Chrome uses Blink, a fork of WebKit, even when Chrome used WebKit, it was faster and offered better HTML5 support (maybe kwebkitpart used an older version of WebKit).
So Konq matches Safari rather than Chrom*. Big deal. HTML5 is a moving target, in constant development, with as yet no final spec.
HTML5 reached its final spec 9 months ago. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/10/html5-specification-fi...
The browser engine developers are free to spend time implementing proposals and expectations as they see fit to justify spending time on a spec that may again change or might be more easily implemented by waiting and working it in alongside some expected upcoming change.
What really matters is not how many out of 555 or whatever the combination of locked-in and still mutable is met, but how well any engine syncs up with results from its competition on real web pages written and styled by real web stylists, so that special adaptations or workarounds directed to specific engines are not required to get results matching cross-browser.
Again, HTML5 is final since October 2014
It also matters whether a browser can do what the user wants. Far behind as KHTML is behind the others, it can do things others cannot, and only Konq offers it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ _______________________________________________ kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Mustafa Muhammad composed on 2015-07-27 09:32 (UTC+0300):
Felix Miata wrote:
So Konq matches Safari rather than Chrom*. Big deal. HTML5 is a moving target, in constant development, with as yet no final spec.
HTML5 reached its final spec 9 months ago. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/10/html5-specification-fi...
Looking only at http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ that is an easily reached conclusion. However on a more in depth study of all the following
http://www.w3.org/TR/ http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/ http://html.spec.whatwg.org/
one might reach a different conclusion, particularly after reading ...master/ (HTML5.1), and then the following:
"Work on evolutions of this specification proceeds at http://www.w3.org/TR/html/. The HTML5 Recommendation represents a milestone in the development of HTML but far from being the end of the road and improvements are already well under way." http://www.w3.org/TR/html/
One conclusion might be that not only is HTML5 not complete, but also that it may never be complete.
On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Felix Miata mrmazda@earthlink.net wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad composed on 2015-07-27 09:32 (UTC+0300):
Felix Miata wrote:
So Konq matches Safari rather than Chrom*. Big deal. HTML5 is a moving target, in constant development, with as yet no final spec.
HTML5 reached its final spec 9 months ago. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/10/html5-specification-fi...
Looking only at http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ that is an easily reached conclusion. However on a more in depth study of all the following
http://www.w3.org/TR/ http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/ http://html.spec.whatwg.org/
one might reach a different conclusion, particularly after reading ...master/ (HTML5.1), and then the following:
"Work on evolutions of this specification proceeds at http://www.w3.org/TR/html/. The HTML5 Recommendation represents a milestone in the development of HTML but far from being the end of the road and improvements are already well under way." http://www.w3.org/TR/html/
One conclusion might be that not only is HTML5 not complete, but also that it may never be complete.
Of course it will continue evolving, everything is evolving, that's why we got 3 then 4 then 5, maybe the standard recommendation rate will be higher (because of minor versions to fix or evolve the major version)
As others pointed previously, there is almost no development upstream for Konqueror and Rekonq, compare this to Firefox.
Web browsers should support the latest HTML standard, this is the purpose of a web browser.
If a browser is slower than the competition, doesn't support extensions, and doesn't support latest HTML standards, being a KDE project doesn't make it the best browser.
I think the least we can do is to ship Firefox, even if Konqueror stays the default (which I think very bad default)
Mustafa Muhamad
P.S. I tried opening Youtube in Konqueror and the video did not play, how do you use Youtube? Flash?
-- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
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Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
P.S. I tried opening Youtube in Konqueror and the video did not play, how do you use Youtube? Flash?
Which did you try? KHTML or KWebKitPart? We install KWebKitPart by default on the KDE spin, and it sets itself as the preferred engine. And YouTube just works with KWebKitPart for me. Flash is not installed at all here. I explicitly opted in to YouTube HTML 5, you may have to do that too, though it should be the default these days. YouTube indeed does not work in KHTML (anymore – it did work at some point in the past), but KWebKitPart is the default we ship.
Kevin Kofler
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 2:05 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
P.S. I tried opening Youtube in Konqueror and the video did not play, how do you use Youtube? Flash?
Which did you try? KHTML or KWebKitPart? We install KWebKitPart by default on the KDE spin, and it sets itself as the preferred engine. And YouTube just works with KWebKitPart for me. Flash is not installed at all here. I explicitly opted in to YouTube HTML 5, you may have to do that too, though it should be the default these days. YouTube indeed does not work in KHTML (anymore – it did work at some point in the past), but KWebKitPart is the default we ship.
With both of them it does not work here (tried F22 and Rawhide), unless you installed h264 decoder, it should not work, YouTube service HTML5 videos as VP9, VP8, or mp4, you can see by right clicking the video then click "Stats For Nerds", can you please tell us what is working for you.
I think Konq does not support any free video codec (VP9 or VP8), Firefox supports BOTH (but now YouTube only runs VP8 on Firefox because Google wants 'Media Sources Extensions' available to run VP9, and MSE support in Firefox is still experimental)
Kevin Kofler
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
With both of them it does not work here (tried F22 and Rawhide), unless you installed h264 decoder, it should not work, YouTube service HTML5 videos as VP9, VP8, or mp4, you can see by right clicking the video then click "Stats For Nerds", can you please tell us what is working for you.
I think Konq does not support any free video codec (VP9 or VP8), Firefox supports BOTH (but now YouTube only runs VP8 on Firefox because Google wants 'Media Sources Extensions' available to run VP9, and MSE support in Firefox is still experimental)
KWebKitPart uses GStreamer to decode videos. WebM (VP8, VP9) is supposed to just work. https://www.youtube.com/html5 also tells me that WebM VP8 is supported. (As for VP9, unfortunately, as you wrote, they apparently use it only with Media Source Extensions, which is currently NOT supported. But even Firefox is not enabling it by default, as you wrote.)
And there are GStreamer plugins for H.264 in RPM Fusion. Unfortunately, you will need them for other sites anyway. A lot of the web still refuses to use patent-unencumbered formats. :-( For some reason, YouTube seems to send H.264 over VP8 if both are supported.
Kevin Kofler
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
With both of them it does not work here (tried F22 and Rawhide), unless you installed h264 decoder, it should not work, YouTube service HTML5 videos as VP9, VP8, or mp4, you can see by right clicking the video then click "Stats For Nerds", can you please tell us what is working for you.
I think Konq does not support any free video codec (VP9 or VP8), Firefox supports BOTH (but now YouTube only runs VP8 on Firefox because Google wants 'Media Sources Extensions' available to run VP9, and MSE support in Firefox is still experimental)
KWebKitPart uses GStreamer to decode videos. WebM (VP8, VP9) is supposed to just work. https://www.youtube.com/html5 also tells me that WebM VP8 is supported. (As for VP9, unfortunately, as you wrote, they apparently use it only with Media Source Extensions, which is currently NOT supported. But even Firefox is not enabling it by default, as you wrote.)
And there are GStreamer plugins for H.264 in RPM Fusion. Unfortunately, you will need them for other sites anyway. A lot of the web still refuses to use patent-unencumbered formats. :-( For some reason, YouTube seems to send H.264 over VP8 if both are supported.
I mean the net result is, when a user first boots Fedora Workstation, it works with YouTube (because they use Firefox), boot Fedora KDE, and you can't, you have to install rpmfusion repos, then install the required codec. Firefox is better in every aspect (except that it uses GTK+), and you know most people prefer it.
Please, make a public poll, e.g. on G+, see what users want. Don't feed the users Konqueror just because it is from KDE, I love KDE, it is the only Desktop I use, but I want a browser that works well.
A less than optimal solution is to just add it, not as default, but available.
Regards Mustafa Muhammad
Kevin Kofler
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Am 28.07.2015 um 15:55 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
Please, make a public poll, e.g. on G+, see what users want. Don't feed the users Konqueror just because it is from KDE, I love KDE, it is the only Desktop I use, but I want a browser that works well.
A less than optimal solution is to just add it, not as default, but available
jesus christ it is available and there is no other operating system which makes it easier to install software from the rpeos
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 28.07.2015 um 15:55 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
Please, make a public poll, e.g. on G+, see what users want. Don't feed the users Konqueror just because it is from KDE, I love KDE, it is the only Desktop I use, but I want a browser that works well.
A less than optimal solution is to just add it, not as default, but available
jesus christ it is available and there is no other operating system which makes it easier to install software from the rpeos
New users? First impressions?
Mustafa
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Am 28.07.2015 um 16:00 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 28.07.2015 um 15:55 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
Please, make a public poll, e.g. on G+, see what users want. Don't feed the users Konqueror just because it is from KDE, I love KDE, it is the only Desktop I use, but I want a browser that works well.
A less than optimal solution is to just add it, not as default, but available
jesus christ it is available and there is no other operating system which makes it easier to install software from the rpeos
New users? First impressions?
a new user coming from Apple OSX or Windows most likely was using Firefox already there and guess what: on both operating systems he needed to install it while it now comes at least from a central repo
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
I mean the net result is, when a user first boots Fedora Workstation, it works with YouTube (because they use Firefox), boot Fedora KDE, and you can't, you have to install rpmfusion repos, then install the required codec.
The H.264 codec is NOT required. VP8 is installed out of the box. If KWebKitPart/QtWebKit is claiming H.264 is supported even when the codec is not actually present (is that the issue? What does https://www.youtube.com/html5 list as supported for you?), and then failing to decode it, that's simply a bug in KWebKitPart/QtWebKit that needs to be fixed. Replacing the browser is the wrong fix.
Kevin Kofler
I wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
I mean the net result is, when a user first boots Fedora Workstation, it works with YouTube (because they use Firefox), boot Fedora KDE, and you can't, you have to install rpmfusion repos, then install the required codec.
The H.264 codec is NOT required. VP8 is installed out of the box. If KWebKitPart/QtWebKit is claiming H.264 is supported even when the codec is not actually present (is that the issue? What does https://www.youtube.com/html5 list as supported for you?), and then failing to decode it, that's simply a bug in KWebKitPart/QtWebKit that needs to be fixed. Replacing the browser is the wrong fix.
Indeed, I can reproduce this. It looks like I was right with my guess about what's going wrong. (It's claiming H.264 is supported even when it's not.) I filed this for now: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1248801
Kevin Kofler
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 11:10 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
I mean the net result is, when a user first boots Fedora Workstation, it works with YouTube (because they use Firefox), boot Fedora KDE, and you can't, you have to install rpmfusion repos, then install the required codec.
The H.264 codec is NOT required. VP8 is installed out of the box. If KWebKitPart/QtWebKit is claiming H.264 is supported even when the codec is not actually present (is that the issue? What does https://www.youtube.com/html5 list as supported for you?), and then failing to decode it, that's simply a bug in KWebKitPart/QtWebKit that needs to be fixed. Replacing the browser is the wrong fix.
This is not the main reason, I listed the reasons several times: 1) Almost dead upstream for Konq, vs thriving upstream for Firefox 2) Slower Konq (maybe qtwebkit to blame) 3) Not supporting the latest standards. 4) The video codecs issue, even if this bug get fixed, no foreseeable VP9 decoding in Konq, VP9 is about 60% the size of VP8 at the same quality and is supported in Firefox ans MSE is being worked on.
We can provide a better user experience for Fedora KDE users, but you refuse to make it happen because you hate Mozilla and want to support upstream KDE. Shipping inferior browser is hurting Fedora KDE, and hurting upstream KDE in general.
Mustafa Muhammad
Kevin Kofler
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 10:58 PM, Mustafa Muhammad mustafa1024m@gmail.com wrote:
We can provide a better user experience for Fedora KDE users, but you refuse to make it happen because you hate Mozilla and want to support upstream KDE. Shipping inferior browser is hurting Fedora KDE, and hurting upstream KDE in general.
You're missing the point here. KDE is a desktop environment; they have set their own defaults. Fedora is a linux distribution which packages KDE. When you choose to install the KDE environment, you should expect to get the upstream defaults. I would be a bit annoyed if that were not the case.
If you have an issue with the performance or capabilities of a KDE application, you should report that upstream.
If you don't like certain default KDE applications, it is extremely easy to use something else. I use chrome, copyq, qmmp and aria2. It's extremely easy...
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Gerald B. Cox gbcox@bzb.us wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 10:58 PM, Mustafa Muhammad <mustafa1024m@gmail.com
wrote:
We can provide a better user experience for Fedora KDE users, but you refuse to make it happen because you hate Mozilla and want to support upstream KDE. Shipping inferior browser is hurting Fedora KDE, and hurting upstream KDE in general.
You're missing the point here. KDE is a desktop environment; they have set their own defaults. Fedora is a linux distribution which packages KDE. When you choose to install the KDE environment, you should expect to get the upstream defaults. I would be a bit annoyed if that were not the case.
If you have an issue with the performance or capabilities of a KDE application, you should report that upstream.
If you don't like certain default KDE applications, it is extremely easy to use something else. I use chrome, copyq, qmmp and aria2. It's extremely easy...
Any user familiar with Fedora can do: dnf erase -y firefox
But new users should have a familiar environment on the live session, and the best UX possible using KDE, I only use KDE as a DE, but some KDE apps are simply not competitive.
Mustafa
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Mustafa Muhammad mustafa1024m@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Gerald B. Cox gbcox@bzb.us wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 10:58 PM, Mustafa Muhammad < mustafa1024m@gmail.com> wrote:
We can provide a better user experience for Fedora KDE users, but you refuse to make it happen because you hate Mozilla and want to support upstream KDE. Shipping inferior browser is hurting Fedora KDE, and hurting upstream KDE in general.
You're missing the point here. KDE is a desktop environment; they have set their own defaults. Fedora is a linux distribution which packages KDE. When you choose to install the KDE environment, you should expect to get the upstream defaults. I would be a bit annoyed if that were not the case.
If you have an issue with the performance or capabilities of a KDE application, you should report that upstream.
If you don't like certain default KDE applications, it is extremely easy to use something else. I use chrome, copyq, qmmp and aria2. It's extremely easy...
Any user familiar with Fedora can do: dnf erase -y firefox
But new users should have a familiar environment on the live session, and the best UX possible using KDE, I only use KDE as a DE, but some KDE apps are simply not competitive.
I meant Plasme :)
Mustafa
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
Any user familiar with Fedora can do: dnf erase -y firefox
That does not necessarily remove the full set of extra dependencies the firefox package dragged in.
But new users should have a familiar environment on the live session, and the best UX possible using KDE, I only use KDE as a DE, but some KDE apps are simply not competitive.
The point is there, hidden inside your long sentence: Our spin is NOT about "only us[ing] KDE [Plasma] as a DE", but about shipping a complete KDE experience. You are looking for a different product, which the Fedora KDE Spin is not and should not become.
Kevin Kofler
On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 1:48 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
Any user familiar with Fedora can do: dnf erase -y firefox
That does not necessarily remove the full set of extra dependencies the firefox package dragged in.
Actually it does, this is the default for dnf, remove the unneeded dependencies. And the "full set of extra dependencies" over Fedora KDE is only two "bookmark" packages, about 10K. I do this on every install, please "dnf install firefox" on a clean installation.
But new users should have a familiar environment on the live session, and the best UX possible using KDE, I only use KDE as a DE, but some KDE apps are simply not competitive.
The point is there, hidden inside your long sentence: Our spin is NOT about "only us[ing] KDE [Plasma] as a DE", but about shipping a complete KDE experience. You are looking for a different product, which the Fedora KDE Spin is not and should not become.
So we should cripple our spin to make it pure? it already have full and lots of other dependencies.
Mustafa Muhammad
Kevin Kofler
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
Actually it does, this is the default for dnf, remove the unneeded dependencies.
I don't trust the autoremove feature to do the right thing. It may be removing too little or too much. And it can be disabled. Which is why I wrote "not necessarily".
And the "full set of extra dependencies" over Fedora KDE is only two "bookmark" packages, about 10K.
Last I checked, at least libnotify was also dragged in. Either the dependencies changed recently or you have more GNOME/GTK+ packages installed.
And I'd like to see GTK+ eventually gone from the KDE spin too.
So we should cripple our spin to make it pure? it already have full and lots of other dependencies.
Because a unified look&feel is essential to a properly integrated distribution. Firefox looks like from another planet. Partly like a GNOME application, partly not even that.
Kevin Kofler
On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
Actually it does, this is the default for dnf, remove the unneeded dependencies.
I don't trust the autoremove feature to do the right thing. It may be removing too little or too much. And it can be disabled. Which is why I wrote "not necessarily".
And the "full set of extra dependencies" over Fedora KDE is only two "bookmark" packages, about 10K.
Last I checked, at least libnotify was also dragged in. Either the dependencies changed recently or you have more GNOME/GTK+ packages installed.
On a clean F22 KDE, firefox only drags:
astronomy-bookmarks 6 kB startup-notification 43kB
And I'd like to see GTK+ eventually gone from the KDE spin too.
So we should cripple our spin to make it pure? it already have full and lots of other dependencies.
Because a unified look&feel is essential to a properly integrated distribution. Firefox looks like from another planet. Partly like a GNOME application, partly not even that.
Kevin Kofler
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Saturday 01 August 2015 00:28:15 Gerald B. Cox wrote:
You're missing the point here.
Actually you are.
KDE is a desktop environment;
No, it's not. Plasma is.
they have set their own defaults.
Plasma does not ship any web browsers: http://download.kde.org/stable/plasma/5.3.2/
Fedora is a linux distribution which packages KDE.
You confuse the DE with the applications released by KDE. Just because the KDE community makes one or in many cases even more than one application of a certain kind (e.g. several music and media players), any of them is a default anywhere.
When you choose to install the KDE environment, you should expect to get the upstream defaults. I would be a bit annoyed if that were not the case.
So, Juk instead of Amarok then and phonon-vlc instead of phonon-gstreamer? No. It's the distributor's responsibility to pick defaults best suited for its user base. Consistent themes from boot splash to the desktop wallpaper is a very common area of distro customization and Fedora does that as well. If you don't like customizations by the distributor, maybe Gentoo or Arch are better suited for you..
Am 01.08.2015 um 16:28 schrieb Markus Slopianka:
On Saturday 01 August 2015 00:28:15 Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Fedora is a linux distribution which packages KDE.
You confuse the DE with the applications released by KDE. Just because the KDE community makes one or in many cases even more than one application of a certain kind (e.g. several music and media players), any of them is a default anywhere
bla
for the majority of users KDE and it's software is a desktop environemnt and they don't care about all the renamings of the past few years - that said from a user which was here as KDE 1.0 came out
KDE, KDE SC, Plasma -> leave me in piece with all that "i try to find myself each year gain" crap
Reindl Harald ha scritto:
Am 01.08.2015 um 16:28 schrieb Markus Slopianka:
On Saturday 01 August 2015 00:28:15 Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Fedora is a linux distribution which packages KDE.
You confuse the DE with the applications released by KDE. Just because the KDE community makes one or in many cases even more than one application of a certain kind (e.g. several music and media players), any of them is a default anywhere
bla
for the majority of users KDE and it's software is a desktop environemnt and they don't care about all the renamings of the past few years - that said from a user which was here as KDE 1.0 came out
As long as people continue spreading this information, it will continue to exist. KDE is not a Desktop Environment, full stop, whatever you like or think. Interesting to notice that one side you don't care about what upstream says about Plasma and KDE, and on the other side you want to exactly follow what upstream ships in some of the many products. Konqueror is not part of of the releases of the desktop anyway.
My point is: even upstream does not really want to push for a browser or another right now. There is a (maybe just prototype) of new browser investigated, but really really an experiment. No one in KDE community will complain if the default browser of a "KDE-based distribution" is not Konqueror.
Ciao
Luigi Toscano composed on 2015-08-01 18:33 (UTC+0200):
KDE is not a Desktop Environment, full stop, whatever you like or think.
That kind of nonsense is what happens as a result of renames that obfuscate etymology:
K = K
D = Desktop
E = Environment
Thus, KDE it is, still from kde.org.
"The name KDE was intended as a wordplay on the existing Common Desktop Environment, available for Unix systems. CDE is an X11-based user environment jointly developed by HP, IBM, and Sun through the X/Open consortium, with an interface and productivity tools based on the Motif graphical widget toolkit. It was supposed to be an intuitively easy-to-use desktop computer environment.[5] The K was originally suggested to stand for "Kool", but it was quickly decided that the K should stand for nothing in particular. The KDE initialism is therefore expanded to "K Desktop Environment"."
Felix Miata ha scritto:
Luigi Toscano composed on 2015-08-01 18:33 (UTC+0200):
KDE is not a Desktop Environment, full stop, whatever you like or think.
That kind of nonsense is what happens as a result of renames that obfuscate etymology:
K = K
D = Desktop
E = Environment
Thus, KDE it is, still from kde.org.
We all know the history here, I guess. Things change, this was changed at least 9 years ago, see the keynote of Akademy 2006, Dublin. As you mention kde.org, the website clearly says (in the first available link of the page, under "Experience Freedom!", which brings to https://www.kde.org/community/whatiskde/).
"KDE is an international team co-operating on development and distribution of Free, Open Source Software for desktop and portable computing. Our community has developed a wide variety of applications for communication, work, education and entertainment. We have a strong focus on finding innovative solutions to old and new problems, creating a vibrant, open atmosphere for experimentation."
Ciao
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Luigi Toscano luigi.toscano@tiscali.it wrote:
As long as people continue spreading this information, it will continue to exist. KDE is not a Desktop Environment, full stop, whatever you like or think.
I think the point was that many people just don't care... their eyes simply glaze over when you get into the minutiae of it all. In any event, it's really amusing if you do a Google search, the first hit says:
"KDE is a powerful graphical desktop environment for Unix workstations."
Here is a screenshot for your amusement: https://goo.gl/photos/smu2Zem1So2pD9669 So if you're concerned about misinformation, someone needs to work on that.
Interesting to notice that one side you don't care about what upstream says about Plasma and KDE, and on the other side you want to exactly follow what upstream ships in some of the many products. Konqueror is not part of of the releases of the desktop anyway.
The thread was about changing default applications. To change a default, you need a compelling reason.
My point is: even upstream does not really want to push for a browser or another right now. There is a (maybe just prototype) of new browser investigated, but really really an experiment. No one in KDE community will complain if the default browser of a "KDE-based distribution" is not Konqueror.
I haven't seen anything that implies that Konqueror isn't the designated browser for KDE; just the opposite - there is a dearth of information on the web that implies otherwise. However, if upstream wants to clarify that, I would think they would just put out a notice here: https://www.kde.org/applications/internet/konqueror/
In any event, I still believe if one has an issue with the performance or capabilities of a particular application, the place to discuss that is with upstream.
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Gerald B. Cox gbcox@bzb.us wrote:
there is a dearth of information on the web that implies otherwise.
I meant just the opposite... typo
Gerald B. Cox ha scritto:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Luigi Toscano <luigi.toscano@tiscali.it mailto:luigi.toscano@tiscali.it> wrote:
As long as people continue spreading this information, it will continue to exist. KDE is not a Desktop Environment, full stop, whatever you like or think.I think the point was that many people just don't care... their eyes simply glaze over when you get into the minutiae of it all. In any event, it's really amusing if you do a Google search, the first hit says:
"KDE is a powerful graphical desktop environment for Unix workstations."
Here is a screenshot for your amusement: https://goo.gl/photos/smu2Zem1So2pD9669 So if you're concerned about misinformation, someone needs to work on that.
Yes, Google Search. That string is only available from those pages: https://www.kde.org/announcements/beta2announce.php https://www.kde.org/announcements/beta3announce.php https://www.kde.org/announcements/beta4announce.php
You can check it yourself by checking out the source of the www website and running grep there: http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/www/sites/www/
Maybe it's possible to force Google to change this information, I will ping KDE sysadmins. If you check any other page around on kde.org you will find the correct definition (the one I mentioned before).
Interesting to notice that one side you don't care about what upstream says about Plasma and KDE, and on the other side you want to exactly follow what upstream ships in some of the many products. Konqueror is not part of of the releases of the desktop anyway.The thread was about changing default applications. To change a default, you need a compelling reason.
It depends on the set of default. There is no default browser for Plasma.
My point is: even upstream does not really want to push for a browser or another right now. There is a (maybe just prototype) of new browser investigated, but really really an experiment. No one in KDE community will complain if the default browser of a "KDE-based distribution" is not Konqueror.I haven't seen anything that implies that Konqueror isn't the designated browser for KDE; just the opposite - there is a dearth of information on the web that implies otherwise.
It's a browser shipped with KDE Applications. Can you find anywhere that it's the default browser for Plasma?
However, if upstream wants to clarify that, I would think they would just put out a notice here: https://www.kde.org/applications/internet/konqueror/
In any event, I still believe if one has an issue with the performance or capabilities of a particular application, the place to discuss that is with upstream.
A browser is unfortunately a really important component of the system nowadays and even talking with upstream won't magically make it appears, even if I really would like it.
Ciao
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Luigi Toscano luigi.toscano@tiscali.it wrote:
Maybe it's possible to force Google to change this information, I will ping KDE sysadmins. If you check any other page around on kde.org you will find the correct definition (the one I mentioned before).
My point was simply there is still quite a bit of information out there,
and if the KDE team is sensitive to KDE being referred to as a Desktop Environment, they need to realize it's going to take a massive PR push to change that mindset. Most people could care less.
It depends on the set of default. There is no default browser for Plasma.
It's a browser shipped with KDE Applications. Can you find anywhere that it's the default browser for Plasma?
Again, that is a bit pedantic. Anyone who has used KDE or whatever it's
name du jour associate Konqueror with KDE.
A browser is unfortunately a really important component of the system nowadays and even talking with upstream won't magically make it appears, even if I really would like it.
Agreed, and it would be nice if upstream would share it's roadmap concerning that. Again, I haven't read anything that says Konqueror is going away; to the contrary it is described as a key application. If KDE (or again whatever it's called) wants to get out of the browser business, that's fine; but it needs to be stated and not on some mailing list. Put it on the webpage for Konqueror.
That all said, I get the point about KDE Plasma Workspaces and KDE Applications; for the purposes of this thread however, it's a distinction without a difference.
Gerald B. Cox ha scritto:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Luigi Toscano <luigi.toscano@tiscali.it mailto:luigi.toscano@tiscali.it> wrote:
Maybe it's possible to force Google to change this information, I will ping KDE sysadmins. If you check any other page around on kde.org <http://kde.org> you will find the correct definition (the one I mentioned before).My point was simply there is still quite a bit of information out there, and if the KDE team is sensitive to KDE being referred to as a Desktop Environment, they need to realize it's going to take a massive PR push to change that mindset. Most people could care less.
Any and each dot/kdenews article, any release announcement in the last >5 years clearly states this. You use as a counterexample an automatic generated tagline from google, which is not a source. Which other massive PR action do you want to do, apart from stating again and again this as it was done in the last years?
It depends on the set of default. There is no default browser for Plasma. It's a browser shipped with KDE Applications. Can you find anywhere that it's the default browser for Plasma?Again, that is a bit pedantic. Anyone who has used KDE or whatever it's name du jour associate Konqueror with KDE.
Anyone who comes from Windows used to associate Internet with a blue E. Many Kubuntu users (which are not so few in the world of Linux-based distributions) had rekonq as default browser for a long time.
A browser is unfortunately a really important component of the system nowadays and even talking with upstream won't magically make it appears, even if I really would like it.Agreed, and it would be nice if upstream would share it's roadmap concerning that. Again, I haven't read anything that says Konqueror is going away; to the contrary it is described as a key application.
There is no maintainer right now: https://blogs.kde.org/2014/08/16/konqueror-looking-maintainer
Konqueror (kdelibs4-based) is released as part of KDE Applications. No Frameworks versions are planned until someone complete the port (the same as any other application ported to Frameworks). The Plasma team has not stated anything about the default browser or the browser with good integration with Plasma 5, which even the current Konqueror is not (as it is not ported yet).
If KDE (or again whatever it's called) wants to get out of the browser business, that's fine; but it needs to be stated and not on some mailing list. Put it on the webpage for Konqueror.
This is not about going out of browser business.
That all said, I get the point about KDE Plasma Workspaces and KDE Applications; for the purposes of this thread however, it's a distinction without a difference.
I disagree; if you want the best desktop, so Plasma, experience, the current kdelibs4 Konqueror is not so different from Firefox or rekonq.
Ciao
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Luigi Toscano luigi.toscano@tiscali.it wrote:
The Plasma team has not stated anything about the default browser or the browser with good integration with Plasma 5, which even the current Konqueror is not (as it is not ported yet).
I thought by what you were saying Plasma is completely separate from the applications, so why would they have anything to say about defaults for KDE Applications? If you check out KDE Applications, Konqueror is the only browser listed. If it's the only choice, it's the default.
Luigi Toscano composed on 2015-08-01 20:32 (UTC+0200):
Gerald B. Cox composed:
My point was simply there is still quite a bit of information out there, and if the KDE team is sensitive to KDE being referred to as a Desktop Environment, they need to realize it's going to take a massive PR push to change that mindset. Most people could care less.
Any and each dot/kdenews article, any release announcement in the last >5 years clearly states this. You use as a counterexample an automatic generated tagline from google, which is not a source. Which other massive PR action do you want to do, apart from stating again and again this as it was done in the last years?
I doubt there is a solution. Upstream wanted a name change, so tried to give it one. Users reject using it. The new isn't improved, only complicated.
Probably few users care about release announcements enough to read them. That's why users who don't participate in development and blindly upgrade to latest version as soon as discovered often ask how to revert, especially with F22 and Kubuntu 15.04, due to first Plasma5 exposure, which sadly mimics the migration from KDE3 to KDE4 with WONTFIX[1] or buck-passed upstream to QT[2] features lost and/or dysfunction[3].
[1] e.g. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=343246 [2] e.g. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340982 [3] e.g. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=346059
Hi all, i am just a new user, but about this topic, i would like to suggest(as someone did before) Qupzilla as a competitive browser for Plasma 5.
The others browsers are not good enough and the User Experience would improve a lot forma Fedora KDE.
I discovered it first in KaOS and since, it made me back to use a Qt-based browser.
It's pretty cool, almost at the level of Firefox/Chommium.
Probably few users care about release announcements enough to read them. That's why users who don't participate in development and blindly upgrade
to
latest version as soon as discovered often ask how to revert, especially
with
F22 and Kubuntu 15.04, due to first Plasma5 exposure, which sadly mimics
the
migration from KDE3 to KDE4.
According yo Kubuntu's expectations they are using 15.04 and 15.10, to improve Plasma 5.3 so Kubuntu 16.04 LTS will use a good Plasma 5.6 or may be the 5.7 release.
_______________________________________________
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On Saturday 01 August 2015 14:20:28 Hernán Ramírez wrote:
Hi all, i am just a new user, but about this topic, i would like to suggest(as someone did before) Qupzilla as a competitive browser for Plasma 5.
The problem is that the current release uses QtWebKit, i.e. is as insecure as Konqueror. The upcoming version will use a Chromium-based engine. Currently Fedora is unwilling to bundle that engine.
On 1 August 2015 at 19:32, Luigi Toscano luigi.toscano@tiscali.it wrote:
Gerald B. Cox ha scritto:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Luigi Toscano <luigi.toscano@tiscali.it mailto:luigi.toscano@tiscali.it> wrote:
If KDE (or again whatever it's called) wants to get out of the browser business, that's fine; but it needs to be stated and not on some mailing list. Put it on the webpage for Konqueror.
This is not about going out of browser business.
That all said, I get the point about KDE Plasma Workspaces and KDE Applications; for the purposes of this thread however, it's a distinction without a difference.
I disagree; if you want the best desktop, so Plasma, experience, the current kdelibs4 Konqueror is not so different from Firefox or rekonq.
While we decide what exactly constitutes a desktop environment (which in linux has traditionally meant a suite of applications as well as the window manager), I went back to konqueror to see why I stopped using it and was reminded that even https://start.fedoraproject.org/ renders wrongly.
Am 02.08.2015 um 13:27 schrieb Ian Malone:
On 1 August 2015 at 19:32, Luigi Toscano luigi.toscano@tiscali.it wrote:
Gerald B. Cox ha scritto:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Luigi Toscano <luigi.toscano@tiscali.it mailto:luigi.toscano@tiscali.it> wrote:
If KDE (or again whatever it's called) wants to get out of the browser business, that's fine; but it needs to be stated and not on some mailing list. Put it on the webpage for Konqueror.
This is not about going out of browser business.
That all said, I get the point about KDE Plasma Workspaces and KDE Applications; for the purposes of this thread however, it's a distinction without a difference.
I disagree; if you want the best desktop, so Plasma, experience, the current kdelibs4 Konqueror is not so different from Firefox or rekonq.
While we decide what exactly constitutes a desktop environment (which in linux has traditionally meant a suite of applications as well as the window manager), I went back to konqueror to see why I stopped using it and was reminded that even https://start.fedoraproject.org/ renders wrongly
maybe because the one who wrote the HTML has no clue what he is doing and unable to just start a syntax validator - <h3> is a block element - inside a <a>-tag? seriously?
there is no correct rendering for invalid HTML by definition
line 62 column 58 - Fehler: there is no attribute "ALT" line 86 column 102 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 89 column 78 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 109 column 102 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 112 column 78 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 132 column 104 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 135 column 109 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 155 column 101 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 158 column 80 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 178 column 98 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 181 column 132 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 261 column 15 - Fehler: there is no attribute "ID" line 261 column 23 - Fehler: element "FOOTER" undefined
Am 02.08.2015 um 13:31 schrieb Reindl Harald:
Am 02.08.2015 um 13:27 schrieb Ian Malone:
While we decide what exactly constitutes a desktop environment (which in linux has traditionally meant a suite of applications as well as the window manager), I went back to konqueror to see why I stopped using it and was reminded that even https://start.fedoraproject.org/ renders wrongly
maybe because the one who wrote the HTML has no clue what he is doing and unable to just start a syntax validator - <h3> is a block element - inside a <a>-tag? seriously?
there is no correct rendering for invalid HTML by definition
besides that - i have https://start.fedoraproject.org/ currently open in Firefox as well as in Konqueror - it's identical on both
line 62 column 58 - Fehler: there is no attribute "ALT" line 86 column 102 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 89 column 78 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 109 column 102 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 112 column 78 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 132 column 104 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 135 column 109 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 155 column 101 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 158 column 80 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 178 column 98 - Fehler: required attribute "ALT" not specified line 181 column 132 - Fehler: document type does not allow element "H3" here; missing one of "OBJECT", "MAP", "BUTTON" start-tag line 261 column 15 - Fehler: there is no attribute "ID" line 261 column 23 - Fehler: element "FOOTER" undefined
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For those who are interested I found this thread on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/3b3hrz/whats_the_future_of_konqueror/
Please don't construe this posting as an endorsement to change the Fedora KDE browser default. It's not.
I do wish however that KDE would be a bit more transparent on their roadmap for Konqueror. There comes a time where you need to fish or cut bait. With the amount of FUD circulating, I think that time has come.
Luigi Toscano wrote:
As long as people continue spreading this information, it will continue to exist. KDE is not a Desktop Environment, full stop, whatever you like or think.
Language is ultimately determined by the people who speak it. Let's face it: this rename has failed. It has simply not been accepted by the community (at large; I'm not talking specifically about the developer community, though even several developers still use the old nomenclature).
No one in KDE community will complain if the default browser of a "KDE- based distribution" is not Konqueror.
If that's true, this means the KDE community has failed. The goal has always been to offer a cohesive experience, not random foreign applications that stick out like a sore thumb.
(further down the thread:)
A browser is unfortunately a really important component of the system nowadays [...]
That's exactly why we should not replace it with an unintegrated non-KDE application.
(even further down:)
The Plasma team has not stated anything about the default browser or the browser with good integration with Plasma 5, which even the current Konqueror is not (as it is not ported yet).
A kdelibs4 application still uses the Breeze Qt style (it builds both for Qt 4 and 5), the Breeze icon theme, KIO (the kdelibs4 compatibility version, but still, it's KIO, and there are also other kdelibs4 applications needing KIO 4), file dialogs that look and feel very similar (if not identical) to the KF5 ones, etc. Firefox does none of that. So even an unported Konqueror integrates a lot better into Plasma 5 than Firefox ever will.
Kevin Kofler
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Markus Slopianka kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
So, Juk instead of Amarok then and phonon-vlc instead of phonon-gstreamer? No. It's the distributor's responsibility to pick defaults best suited for its user base. Consistent themes from boot splash to the desktop wallpaper is a very common area of distro customization and Fedora does that as well. If you don't like customizations by the distributor, maybe Gentoo or Arch are better suited for you.
Customizations are different than setting default applications. Themes are associated with branding. That's apples and oranges. Tweaks are also different, as the recent change that restored Konsole to the desktop pulldown. This thread was about Konqueror - and I mentioned the other applications I used as an example that I customize on my own. I have absolutely no issues with the chosen default applications - and know of no reason they should be changed.
But moving back from the lurch into the pedantic, my point was that it's extremely easy to install and use whatever applications you want - and if you're unhappy with the performance or capabilities of an application, that should be discussed upstream.
On Saturday 01 August 2015 08:58:44 Gerald B. Cox wrote:
But moving back from the lurch into the pedantic, my point was that it's extremely easy to install and use whatever applications you want - and if you're unhappy with the performance or capabilities of an application, that should be discussed upstream.
QtWebKit and KHTML are both unmaintained and insecure. I find it absolutely puzzling that some here argue for insecure defaults for web browsers but opening a few ports to make KDE Connect work out of the box is apparently out of the question security-wise...
Why are insecure and unmaintained browsers even on the table as defaults?
On Aug 1, 2015 14:02, "Markus Slopianka" kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
On Saturday 01 August 2015 08:58:44 Gerald B. Cox wrote:
But moving back from the lurch into the pedantic, my point was that it's extremely easy to install and use whatever applications you want - and if you're unhappy with the performance or capabilities of an application, that should be
discussed
upstream.
QtWebKit and KHTML are both unmaintained and insecure. I find it absolutely puzzling that some here argue for insecure defaults
for
web browsers but opening a few ports to make KDE Connect work out of the
box
is apparently out of the question security-wise...
Why are insecure and unmaintained browsers even on the table as defaults?
I don't know... as I suggested above, why don't you ask upstream.
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Markus Slopianka kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
On Saturday 01 August 2015 14:53:17 Gerald B. Cox wrote:
I don't know... as I suggested above, why don't you ask upstream.
Upstream deprecated both engines.
Konqueror is still listed as "a key application"; and it hasn't been deprecated.
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 5:46 PM, Markus Slopianka kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
QtWebKit is still deprecated in favor of Chromium-based Qt WebEngine. KDE has nothing to do with this decision by Digia.
Ok... so?
On Saturday 01 August 2015 18:39:15 Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 5:46 PM, Markus Slopianka kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
QtWebKit is still deprecated in favor of Chromium-based Qt WebEngine. KDE has nothing to do with this decision by Digia.
Ok... so?
Don't play dumb. No browser using a deprecated, insecure engine should ever be default. There is no excuse to do it anyway.
Markus Slopianka composed on 2015-08-02 04:07 (UTC+0200):
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Markus Slopianka wrote:
QtWebKit is still deprecated in favor of Chromium-based Qt WebEngine. KDE has nothing to do with this decision by Digia.
Ok... so?
Don't play dumb. No browser using a deprecated, insecure engine should ever be default. There is no excuse to do it anyway.
You'd think not, but be realistic. Resources in upstream KDE chronically fall short of what its ambitious and optimistic view developer pool is realistically capable of producing, while employing a myopic view of what loyal KDE users care about.
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Markus Slopianka kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
Don't play dumb. No browser using a deprecated, insecure engine should ever be default. There is no excuse to do it anyway.
That's why I suggested you question upstream. They are still referencing Konqueror as a key application, and it's their default browser.
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Gerald B. Cox gbcox@bzb.us wrote:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Markus Slopianka kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
Don't play dumb. No browser using a deprecated, insecure engine should ever be default. There is no excuse to do it anyway.
That's why I suggested you question upstream. They are still referencing Konqueror as a key application, and it's their default browser.
"If" it is their default, it doesn't need to be our default, if we let a "deprecated, insecure engine" based browser be our default, we are betraying our users.
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Am 03.08.2015 um 16:41 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Gerald B. Cox <gbcox@bzb.us mailto:gbcox@bzb.us> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Markus Slopianka <kamikazow@gmx.de <mailto:kamikazow@gmx.de>> wrote: Don't play dumb. No browser using a deprecated, insecure engine should ever be default. There is no excuse to do it anyway. That's why I suggested you question upstream. They are still referencing Konqueror as a key application, and it's their default browser."If" it is their default, it doesn't need to be our default, if we let a "deprecated, insecure engine" based browser be our default, we are betraying our users.
the next time you are repeating this post a link with CVE's or just refrain to repeat it - NO not a CVE for a random fork of the engine which may or may not have the same bugs
until then try to understand that maybe one of the features you are missing that bad introduced a CVE which is not present
and finally: LEAVE ME IN PEACE with the broken idea ship GTK/GNOME apps with a KDE live-image which results in BLOATWARE in case you create a live usb-stick with rw-overlay
On Monday 03 August 2015 16:48:24 Reindl Harald wrote:
the next time you are repeating this post a link with CVE's or just refrain to repeat it - NO not a CVE for a random fork of the engine which may or may not have the same bugs
Ask Red Hat why QtWebKit is not part of RHEL.
and finally: LEAVE ME IN PEACE with the broken idea ship GTK/GNOME apps with a KDE live-image which results in BLOATWARE in case you create a live usb-stick with rw-overlay
This discussion is regarding upcoming releases. Considering that you are a troll who despises anything related to Plasma 5 anyway, this whole discussion is nothing that matters to you on any technological level. You're just participating to spread hate.
Am 03.08.2015 um 17:40 schrieb Markus Slopianka:
On Monday 03 August 2015 16:48:24 Reindl Harald wrote:
the next time you are repeating this post a link with CVE's or just refrain to repeat it - NO not a CVE for a random fork of the engine which may or may not have the same bugs
Ask Red Hat why QtWebKit is not part of RHEL.
ask redhat why OpenVPN and a ton of other packages is not part of RHEL
this part of your argumentation is completly broken, RHEL don't ship *a lot* packages which are in Fedora and only a part of the missing ones is available via EPEL - but to know that somebody needs to understand the differences between Fedora / RHEL / CentOS
and finally: LEAVE ME IN PEACE with the broken idea ship GTK/GNOME apps with a KDE live-image which results in BLOATWARE in case you create a live usb-stick with rw-overlay
This discussion is regarding upcoming releases. Considering that you are a troll who despises anything related to Plasma 5 anyway, this whole discussion is nothing that matters to you on any technological level. You're just participating to spread hate.
besides that despise Plasma 5 (in the current state) i do that much more for GNOME and so will have to chew it sooner or later when F21 is EOL the discussion make a GTK browser to a default for the KDE live image *matters* to me
what's your damned problem with people not agree with you?
just because somebody hates the idea to pull GTK/GNOME deps into a KDE spin does not make him to a troll - just because somebody hates that the same as KDE3->KDE4 (to soon made the default in Fedora) happens again doe snot make him to a troll
On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 8:40 AM, Markus Slopianka kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
Considering that you are a troll who despises anything related to Plasma 5
No need for personal attacks. I think thread has played itself out. Time to move on.
Markus Slopianka wrote:
QtWebKit is still deprecated in favor of Chromium-based Qt WebEngine. KDE has nothing to do with this decision by Digia.
This was a very bad decision by Digia, because QtWebEngine is not a suitable replacement for many reasons. A fork of QtWebKit is really needed, at the very least to bring it up to date with current upstream WebKit.
Kevin Kofler
Markus Slopianka wrote:
QtWebKit and KHTML are both unmaintained and insecure.
Blanket claims of "insecure" do not help anyone. Report concrete CVEs that affect QtWebKit and/or KHTML and we will backport the fixes. I backported CVE fixes even to kdelibs3's KHTML. I will also point out that many current Chrome CVEs DO NOT affect QtWebKit, let alone KHTML, because the code bases of the forks have diverged a lot, and each fork (WebKit first, now Blink/Chromium) has introduced huge amounts of additional code, which of course also means more security issues (because bug-free code does not exist).
Kevin Kofler
Markus Slopianka wrote:
Just because the KDE community makes one or in many cases even more than one application of a certain kind (e.g. several music and media players), any of them is a default anywhere.
The web browser is not a random application, but a very central part of a desktop operating system. It is vital that the web browser integrates properly into the desktop environment. Firefox does not integrate at all, it does not even honor the desktop's icon theme anymore (not even the GNOME setting, let alone the Plasma one).
Kevin Kofler
On Mon, 2015-08-03 at 00:53 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Markus Slopianka wrote:
Just because the KDE community makes one or in many cases even more than one application of a certain kind (e.g. several music and media players), any of them is a default anywhere.
The web browser is not a random application, but a very central part of a desktop operating system. It is vital that the web browser integrates properly into the desktop environment. Firefox does not integrate at all, it does not even honor the desktop's icon theme anymore (not even the GNOME setting, let alone the Plasma one).
Perhaps "vital" is the wrong word. I haven't use Konqueror in 10 years or so, despite using KDE almost exclusively. But then I never really bought into the whole "desktop environment" thing on Linux. If it's not going to be dictated from on high (viz. Apple or MS) then there is no hope of getting everyone aboard one DE, and therefore the whole selling point of a DE -- full integration with apps -- is never going to happen. I use KDE mainly as a window system, but I have FF and Chrome for browsing and Evolution for email, because each of them is better than the KDE equivalent for my purposes. I just don't care that much about honouring icon themes. (I do care a lot about incompatible keyring or wallet systems, but I don't want to turn this into another rant).
poc
On Monday 03 August 2015 00:53:01 Kevin Kofler wrote:
It is vital that the web browser integrates properly into the desktop environment.
No, it's not. It's vital that a web browser is actively maintained and supports the latest web standards. Neither is the case with Konqueror and unless anyone from the local Konqueror fanboys steps up to A) port Konqueror to KF5 and B) implements some kind of modern web engine (be it a modern WebKit version, Gecko with qtmozembed, or something else), Konqueror is simply an unsuitable default.
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
- The video codecs issue, even if this bug get fixed, no foreseeable VP9
decoding in Konq, VP9 is about 60% the size of VP8 at the same quality and is supported in Firefox ans MSE is being worked on.
Support of VP9 itself, if not already there, is a trivial one-line addition to the hardcoded codec list. (GStreamer support for it should already be there.)
Support for VP9 on YouTube is a different matter because Google arbitrarily decided to require MSE for it. There is nothing we can do about that decision. Complain to Google.
Kevin Kofler
Eric Griffith wrote:
Hey all, question for the List:
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser? Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers. Is there any specific reason that Konqueror has stuck around as the default for so long?
Oh, please, not this discussion AGAIN!
See: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/kde/2014-March/013298.html
Firefox has since continued on its freedom-unfriendly road by introducing restricted extensions, the browser version of restricted boot ("Secure Boot"): It will refuse to load any extensions not signed by Mozilla! How is this compatible with the spirit of Free Software?
But the main showstopper for the KDE spin is still the total lack of Plasma integration.
Rekonq is a more acceptable option, but the only real difference between Konqueror+KWebKitPart and Rekonq is the UI (they use the same engine), so it is mostly a matter of taste, also keeping in mind that the upstream default is Konqueror. But (even though I prefer Konqueror) I am not going to oppose a switch to Rekonq if the majority decides that way. It is Firefox that I have a problem with on a KDE spin.
Kevin Kofler
On Sunday 26 July 2015 23:48:07 Kevin Kofler wrote:
Rekonq is a more acceptable option
Rekonq is dead: http://quickgit.kde.org/?p=rekonq.git&a=log Last real development was done 18 months ago.
I'm afraid to even look up how many open CVEs QtWebKit and KHTML have. Neither are actively developed any longer.
Does a single contributor's attitude towards Mozilla really rank higher than security?
I don't know about CVE's specifically, but Konqueror's development ( https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/applications/kde-baseapps/repository/r...) last src/ update was 4 months ago for one specific file-- every other file hasn't been touched in a year or more. From a security standpoint.. I'm retracting my thoughts around "Firefox or Rekonq" and instead opting for "Firefox or Chromium", and im not even sure if Chromium ever made it into Fedora's repos. Plus, were Rekonq or Konqueror ever ported to Frameworks? If not then neither of them are Wayland-native
On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Markus Slopianka kamikazow@gmx.de wrote:
On Sunday 26 July 2015 23:48:07 Kevin Kofler wrote:
Rekonq is a more acceptable option
Rekonq is dead: http://quickgit.kde.org/?p=rekonq.git&a=log Last real development was done 18 months ago.
I'm afraid to even look up how many open CVEs QtWebKit and KHTML have. Neither are actively developed any longer.
Does a single contributor's attitude towards Mozilla really rank higher than security? _______________________________________________ kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Eric Griffith wrote:
Hey all, question for the List:
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser? Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers. Is there any specific reason that Konqueror has stuck around as the default for so long?
Oh, please, not this discussion AGAIN!
See: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/kde/2014-March/013298.html
Firefox has since continued on its freedom-unfriendly road by introducing restricted extensions, the browser version of restricted boot ("Secure Boot"): It will refuse to load any extensions not signed by Mozilla! How is this compatible with the spirit of Free Software?
This can be disabled, we can ship without this feature. And it IS a feature, to protect from malicious addons.
But the main showstopper for the KDE spin is still the total lack of Plasma integration.
There is some integration, I used it in openSUSE and in Tanglu, were using multiple repos but I think the final is here: https://github.com/plasmazilla
Rekonq is a more acceptable option, but the only real difference between Konqueror+KWebKitPart and Rekonq is the UI (they use the same engine), so it is mostly a matter of taste, also keeping in mind that the upstream default is Konqueror. But (even though I prefer Konqueror) I am not going to oppose a switch to Rekonq if the majority decides that way. It is Firefox that I have a problem with on a KDE spin.
Why not use a public poll, for Fedora KDE "users"
Kevin Kofler
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
This can be disabled, we can ship without this feature.
We (KDE SIG) can't, because Firefox is not maintained by us. This is another issue with it, we have no control whatsoever over its packaging. It is not even open to provenpackager! (The Mozilla stack is the ONLY set of packages not open to provenpackager in all of Fedora, because of the trademark nonsense.)
And it IS a feature, to protect from malicious addons.
Just like locking you into only installing M$ software "protects" you from malicious software. That doesn't mean it is compatible with Free Software. (It is obviously not.)
There is some integration, I used it in openSUSE and in Tanglu, were using multiple repos but I think the final is here: https://github.com/plasmazilla
That integration is not packaged in Fedora and will likely never be, because of the maintainership and trademark situation. So this is not an option for us.
Kevin Kofler
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
This can be disabled, we can ship without this feature.
We (KDE SIG) can't, because Firefox is not maintained by us. This is another issue with it, we have no control whatsoever over its packaging. It is not even open to provenpackager! (The Mozilla stack is the ONLY set of packages not open to provenpackager in all of Fedora, because of the trademark nonsense.)
So please give your new users the choice, they might not know how easy it is to install Firefox, and they will not install it in the live session.
And it IS a feature, to protect from malicious addons.
Just like locking you into only installing M$ software "protects" you from malicious software. That doesn't mean it is compatible with Free Software. (It is obviously not.)
For 99% of users it is, for the rest, they can disable it. Or they can submit the addon Mozilla Store.
There is some integration, I used it in openSUSE and in Tanglu, were using multiple repos but I think the final is here: https://github.com/plasmazilla
That integration is not packaged in Fedora and will likely never be, because of the maintainership and trademark situation. So this is not an option for us.
Maintainership and Trademark? for whom? It is used in openSUSE, Manjaro, Netrunner, Tanglu, and I think Kubuntu.
Kevin Kofler
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Am 28.07.2015 um 08:46 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
There is some integration, I used it in openSUSE and in Tanglu, were using multiple repos but I think the final is here: https://github.com/plasmazilla
That integration is not packaged in Fedora and will likely never be, because of the maintainership and trademark situation. So this is not an option for us.
Maintainership and Trademark? for whom? It is used in openSUSE, Manjaro, Netrunner, Tanglu, and I think Kubuntu
that don't change the fact that it needs an OK from "Redhat Legal" and if you don't understand the reasoning google for the history why debian no longer ships Firefox and Thunderbird with the original name
have fun with "So please give your new users the choice" if Fedora ends there too and well known applications have to be instaleld with special names..........
Redhat is an US company and hence has other implications than distributions outside the US or not driven by a company, look here for an example: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=319901
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 28.07.2015 um 08:46 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
There is some integration, I used it in openSUSE and in Tanglu, were using multiple repos but I think the final is here: https://github.com/plasmazilla
That integration is not packaged in Fedora and will likely never be, because of the maintainership and trademark situation. So this is not an option for us.
Maintainership and Trademark? for whom? It is used in openSUSE, Manjaro, Netrunner, Tanglu, and I think Kubuntu
that don't change the fact that it needs an OK from "Redhat Legal" and if you don't understand the reasoning google for the history why debian no longer ships Firefox and Thunderbird with the original name
I am aware of the debian-mozilla branding issue, I thought this is an addon, not a whole new build. Some integration is possible, see: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Firefox#KDE_integration
I use Firefox in Fedora regularly and I don't see the effect of no integration, maybe only kwallet (but there is an addon for that).
have fun with "So please give your new users the choice" if Fedora ends there too and well known applications have to be instaleld with special names..........
I meant ship Firefox and Konqueror with the default install of Fedora KDE and the users can choose what to use. :)
Mustafa
Redhat is an US company and hence has other implications than distributions outside the US or not driven by a company, look here for an example: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=319901
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Am 28.07.2015 um 11:19 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
have fun with "So please give your new users the choice" if Fedora ends there too and well known applications have to be instaleld with special names..........
I meant ship Firefox and Konqueror with the default install of Fedora KDE and the users can choose what to use. :)
nonsense - the user who cares will install whatever he wants to use and the ones just want to browse the web with no clue what a browsers will be only confused
you are doing only harm if you install 20 applications for everything, besides image space
* it leads in tons of updates for the users * it makes dependency problems more likely
and *no* you can't say "but only in case of webbrowsers" because which justification would apply to not do the same for word processing software, audio players, video players or whatever type of software after open that can of worms
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 28.07.2015 um 11:19 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
have fun with "So please give your new users the choice" if Fedora ends there too and well known applications have to be instaleld with special names..........
I meant ship Firefox and Konqueror with the default install of Fedora KDE and the users can choose what to use. :)
nonsense - the user who cares will install whatever he wants to use and the ones just want to browse the web with no clue what a browsers will be only confused
Browse the web without YouTube, because by default there is no rpmfusion, and with very bad support for latest HTML standard, and slower.
And any user can find the Internet submenu containing both Firefox and Konqueror, and trust me, the number of users who know Firefox are orders of magnitude the number of users who know Konqueror
you are doing only harm if you install 20 applications for everything, besides image space
- it leads in tons of updates for the users
- it makes dependency problems more likely
Add 70MB to the already 1.1G, what will happen? Dependency problems? when is the last time you saw this on stable Fedora?
I don't want two browsers, but you refuse to change the default from an almost dead upstream browser that is slow, doesn't support latest HTML well (and likely will not), does not support addons, to the second most popular desktop browser that is actively developed. I want it as and option to your default because this is better for Fedora and especially to the new users.
and *no* you can't say "but only in case of webbrowsers" because which justification would apply to not do the same for word processing software, audio players, video players or whatever type of software after open that can of worms
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Am 28.07.2015 um 15:48 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
I don't want two browsers, but you refuse to change the default from an almost dead upstream browser that is slow, doesn't support latest HTML well (and likely will not), does not support addons, to the second most popular desktop browser that is actively developed. I want it as and option to your default because this is better for Fedora and especially to the new users
i do not refuse anything because i am just a user as you but i have zero understanding for bloated default installs
"Browse the web without YouTube" is as ridiculous as "Add 70MB" because FF currently has 123 MB installed size not counting the GTK crosss-dependencies on a QT based desktop
a user which wants to use Firefox can install it as well as a user needs to install other applications since you can't pack the whole distribution in a default setup - period
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 28.07.2015 um 15:48 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
I don't want two browsers, but you refuse to change the default from an almost dead upstream browser that is slow, doesn't support latest HTML well (and likely will not), does not support addons, to the second most popular desktop browser that is actively developed. I want it as and option to your default because this is better for Fedora and especially to the new users
i do not refuse anything because i am just a user as you but i have zero understanding for bloated default installs
"Browse the web without YouTube" is as ridiculous as "Add 70MB" because FF currently has 123 MB installed size not counting the GTK crosss-dependencies on a QT based desktop
Adding only 70MB to the iso, try to install Firefox on a fresh Fedora KDE.
a user which wants to use Firefox can install it as well as a user needs to install other applications since you can't pack the whole distribution in a default setup - period
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Why does the 70mbs even matter? We're no where near the 4.7mb limit of a DVD, nor even the 4GB limit of the smallest USB I can find. Going for what the user is (more likely) familiar with and knows is much more user friendly than going with something they don't just because Konqueror happens to be the default upstream. That's even ignoring the dead project issue both Rekonq and Konq face. On Jul 28, 2015 9:59 AM, "Mustafa Muhammad" mustafaa.alhamdaani@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 28.07.2015 um 15:48 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
I don't want two browsers, but you refuse to change the default from an almost dead upstream browser that is slow, doesn't support latest HTML well (and likely will not), does not support addons, to the second most popular desktop browser that is actively developed. I want it as and option to your default because this is better for Fedora and especially to the new users
i do not refuse anything because i am just a user as you but i have zero understanding for bloated default installs
"Browse the web without YouTube" is as ridiculous as "Add 70MB" because
FF
currently has 123 MB installed size not counting the GTK
crosss-dependencies
on a QT based desktop
Adding only 70MB to the iso, try to install Firefox on a fresh Fedora KDE.
a user which wants to use Firefox can install it as well as a user needs
to
install other applications since you can't pack the whole distribution
in a
default setup - period
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Am 28.07.2015 um 16:05 schrieb Eric Griffith:
Why does the 70mbs even matter?
frankly i have enough of this sloppy attitude which is the reason that machines these days are magnitudes slower then they should be given 1000 times more ressources than machines with a 466 MHz PC and 192 MB RAM which was capable to run a Windows 2000 Advanced Server inclduing AD, running VMware with a Linux as well Photoshop and CorelDraw at the same time - people with your attitude got developers and are burning down careless ressources instead use them wisely
if somebody is not able to install Firefox or whatever package he wants to use he should honestly refrain to use computers because he most likely wants to run more than that not default installed packages from the repos
We have the resources. We may as well use them. I'm not denying that developers can get sloppy and should be more mindful of resources. But 70mb seems like a very small price to pay to ensure a user has some level of instant familiarity with a new system. Same reason why Apple put Safari, and used the Safari icon, when they made iOS and why Chrome has mostly replaced "Browser" on newer Android systems as the default web browser. Familiarity matters. On Jul 28, 2015 10:11 AM, "Reindl Harald" h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 28.07.2015 um 16:05 schrieb Eric Griffith:
Why does the 70mbs even matter?
frankly i have enough of this sloppy attitude which is the reason that machines these days are magnitudes slower then they should be given 1000 times more ressources than machines with a 466 MHz PC and 192 MB RAM which was capable to run a Windows 2000 Advanced Server inclduing AD, running VMware with a Linux as well Photoshop and CorelDraw at the same time - people with your attitude got developers and are burning down careless ressources instead use them wisely
if somebody is not able to install Firefox or whatever package he wants to use he should honestly refrain to use computers because he most likely wants to run more than that not default installed packages from the repos
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Reindl Harald wrote:
frankly i have enough of this sloppy attitude which is the reason that machines these days are magnitudes slower then they should be given 1000 times more ressources than machines with a 466 MHz PC and 192 MB RAM which was capable to run a Windows 2000 Advanced Server inclduing AD, running VMware with a Linux as well Photoshop and CorelDraw at the same time - people with your attitude got developers and are burning down careless ressources instead use them wisely
if somebody is not able to install Firefox or whatever package he wants to use he should honestly refrain to use computers because he most likely wants to run more than that not default installed packages from the repos
Full +1 to this!
Kevin Kofler
On Tuesday 28 July 2015 15:55:49 Reindl Harald wrote:
a user which wants to use Firefox can install it as well as a user needs to install other applications since you can't pack the whole distribution in a default setup - period
Based on this attitude, better don't ship any browser at all than the current insecure and buggy default...
A zero megabyte mock Firefox package with version 0.0 could be bundled. The full version would be pulled as normal update.
Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
Browse the web without YouTube, because by default there is no rpmfusion
YouTube is supposed to work without RPM Fusion. If that is not working, that is a bug that needs to be fixed in the browser we ship. It needs to be fixed in QtWebKit/KWebKitPart anyway, independently of what browser is the default.
Kevin Kofler
Eric Griffith wrote:
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser?
We can probably discuss it at the next kde-sig meeting, https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/location/fedora-meeting%40irc.freeno...
I know some have strong/unyielding opinions, but we can see if others can be swayed one way or the other.
-- Rex
I have never seen a debate in this mailing list take up so much energy before. Ever
Forgive me, but, along with the other short comings reported in this list regarding plasma 5. I would be remiss in not suggesting that perhaps this group is locked in group think and perhaps a paradigm shift is required.
I can speak for myself only. Konqueror has not been a concern of mine for a very very long time. Given the current state of plasma 5, I will not be switching to it and have begun to explore alternatives so that I can transition to Fedora 22.
Its very very commendable that KDE has made great effort into simplifying their lives. Unfortunately it makes my life harder.
Computers are supposed to my tool. I am not a tool of the machine.
Eli
On Friday 24 July 2015 12:06:03 Eric Griffith wrote:
Hey all, question for the List:
What would it take / whats the protocol to push forward the idea of replacing Konqueror as the default web browser? Konqueror doesn't seem like its going anywhere, and I really think that the user experience would be better served if either Rekonq, or ideally, Firefox were the default browsers. Is there any specific reason that Konqueror has stuck around as the default for so long?
--Eric--
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
I can speak for myself only. Konqueror has not been a concern of mine for a very very long time. Given the current state of plasma 5, I will not be switching to it and have begun to explore alternatives so that I can transition to Fedora 22.
Have you tried LXQt?
Kevin Kofler
On Sunday 02 August 2015 22:28:14 Kevin Kofler wrote:
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
I can speak for myself only. Konqueror has not been a concern of mine for a very very long time. Given the current state of plasma 5, I will not be switching to it and have begun to explore alternatives so that I can transition to Fedora 22.
Have you tried LXQt?
I have.. some time ago... I cannot remember why I did not like it, but... I didn't... Currently, I am favouring Cinnamon. It is not quite as polished as kde4, but most of the features of a desktop environment are there and it seems to be stable. But... because it is not KDE / Plasma / Qt based, I will be exploring alternative GTK based apps. My 2 biggest problems are KJots and quirks I have found with a game I am playing under Wine. Kjots can relatively easily be replaced with znots addon to Thunderbird. The game; I am some distance away from testing.
I write this with great regard to the superb work and devotion this team has always put into each release, but given the Fedora policy of not looking before you leap and KDE's almost total disregard for their user base I have been prompted to explore a possible shift. As Rex can attest, I have been with group since its inception with Redhat 8 which in computer terms is a very very very long time. It make me sad and somewhat angry that I find myself in this situation. But... I am tired of playing this game. I need to stop doing this.
Sincerely
Eli
Kevin Kofler
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-
Branko Grubic -
Eli Wapniarski -
Eric Griffith -
Felix Miata -
Gerald B. Cox -
Hernán Ramírez -
Ian Malone -
John Pilkington -
Kevin Kofler -
Luigi Toscano -
Markus Slopianka -
Mustafa Muhammad -
Mustafa Muhammad -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Reindl Harald -
Rex Dieter