Wayland by default for Fedora 28

[Jan Grulich]

Hi,

I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and 
attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will have 
to switch soon or later anyway. With Plasma 5.12 and Qt 5.9+ the situation 
with wayland should be way better and given that Plasma 5.12 is an LTS 
release, then we have high chance that bugs we find are fixed within this 
release cycle. If we find out that wayland is still more unusable than usable 
and issues cannot be easily solved, then switching back is easy.
Fedora Workstation (Gnome) has switched long time ago, here [1] you can find 
their proposal and even they had tons of problems at the beginning, but given 
that people actually started using wayland (not just randomly testing it), 
then I think it really helped to speed up the whole development process as 
people were reporting issues for use cases which the devs couldn not think of 
or able to test.

I'm willing of course to do all the paperwork around, propose a change, write 
wiki page, contingency plan and so on and also attempt to help with fixing 
wayland issues.

What do you think about this idea?

[1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault

Regards,
Jan
-- 
Jan Grulich,
Software Engineer, Desktop Team
Red Hat

[Neal Gompa]

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:50 AM, Jan Grulich <jgrulich(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will have
>  to switch soon or later anyway. With Plasma 5.12 and Qt 5.9+ the situation
>  with wayland should be way better and given that Plasma 5.12 is an LTS
>  release, then we have high chance that bugs we find are fixed within this
>  release cycle. If we find out that wayland is still more unusable than usable
>  and issues cannot be easily solved, then switching back is easy.
>  Fedora Workstation (Gnome) has switched long time ago, here [1] you can find
>  their proposal and even they had tons of problems at the beginning, but given
>  that people actually started using wayland (not just randomly testing it),
>  then I think it really helped to speed up the whole development process as
>  people were reporting issues for use cases which the devs couldn not think of
>  or able to test.
>
>  I'm willing of course to do all the paperwork around, propose a change, write
>  wiki page, contingency plan and so on and also attempt to help with fixing
>  wayland issues.
>
>  What do you think about this idea?
>
>  [1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
>  
I think this is a fantastic idea. I've been wondering when we would do
this for a while now.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2018-01-08 at 13:50 +0100, Jan Grulich wrote:
>  Hi,
>  
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and 
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will have 
>  to switch soon or later anyway. With Plasma 5.12 and Qt 5.9+ the situation 
>  with wayland should be way better and given that Plasma 5.12 is an LTS 
>  release, then we have high chance that bugs we find are fixed within this 
>  release cycle. If we find out that wayland is still more unusable than usable 
>  and issues cannot be easily solved, then switching back is easy.
>  Fedora Workstation (Gnome) has switched long time ago, here [1] you can find 
>  their proposal and even they had tons of problems at the beginning, but given 
>  that people actually started using wayland (not just randomly testing it), 
>  then I think it really helped to speed up the whole development process as 
>  people were reporting issues for use cases which the devs couldn not think of 
>  or able to test.
>  
>  I'm willing of course to do all the paperwork around, propose a change, write 
>  wiki page, contingency plan and so on and also attempt to help with fixing 
>  wayland issues.
>  
>  What do you think about this idea? 
I'm in favour as long as reversion to X11 remains as an option for at
least a couple of release cycles.

poc

[Rex Dieter]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

>  I'm in favour as long as reversion to X11 remains as an option
> for at
>  least a couple of release cycles. 
X11 will remain an option indefinitely (at least as long as kde.org upstream 
supports it).

-- Rex

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2018-01-08 at 08:59 -0600, Rex Dieter wrote:
>  Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>  
>  > I'm in favour as long as reversion to X11 remains as an option for at
>  > least a couple of release cycles.
>  
>  X11 will remain an option indefinitely (at least as long as kde.org upstream 
>  supports it). 
OK

poc

[Kevin Kofler]

Jan Grulich wrote:
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward
> and
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. 
Yikes! Please NO!

>  We will have to switch soon or later anyway. 
Says who? Wayland is just not a suitable replacement for X11, and IMHO never 
will be.

        Kevin Kofler

[Reindl Harald]

Am 08.01.2018 um 14:40 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
>  Jan Grulich wrote:
> > I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
> > attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28.
>  
>  Yikes! Please NO!
>  
> > We will have to switch soon or later anyway.
>  
>  Says who? Wayland is just not a suitable replacement for X11, and IMHO never
>  will be 
sorry, but that is trolling

[Kevin Kofler]

Reindl Harald wrote:
>  Am 08.01.2018 um 14:40 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
> > Jan Grulich wrote:
> >> I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
> >> attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28.
> > 
> > Yikes! Please NO!
> > 
> >> We will have to switch soon or later anyway.
> > 
> > Says who? Wayland is just not a suitable replacement for X11, and IMHO
> > never will be
>  
>  sorry, but that is trolling 
Trolling? Even things as basic as middle-click paste don't work under
KWin-Wayland:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373907

And the lack of application forwarding over SSH is also a dealbreaker.

        Kevin Kofler

[Reindl Harald]

Am 10.01.2018 um 01:57 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
>  Reindl Harald wrote:
> > Am 08.01.2018 um 14:40 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
> >> Jan Grulich wrote:
> >>> I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
> >>> attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28.
> >>
> >> Yikes! Please NO!
> >>
> >>> We will have to switch soon or later anyway.
> >>
> >> Says who? Wayland is just not a suitable replacement for X11, and IMHO
> >> never will be
> >
> > sorry, but that is trolling
>  
>  Trolling? Even things as basic as middle-click paste don't work under
>  KWin-Wayland:
>  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373907
>  
>  And the lack of application forwarding over SSH is also a dealbreaker 
"IMHO never will be" is trolling

since most KDE applications got worser and worser over X11-SSH and are 
now mostly useless in that context makes at least that dealbreaker 
irrelevant - i remeber days where a complete KDE desktop over FreeNX was 
a fine thing even with small bandwidth - now even a single application 
with 25 Mbit is unuesable because it's faster to take the underground 
rail, drive home and look what happened than wait that a simple 
operation becomes visible on the remote end

[Reindl Harald]

Am 10.01.2018 um 02:06 schrieb Reindl Harald:
>  Am 10.01.2018 um 01:57 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
> > Trolling? Even things as basic as middle-click paste don't work under
> > KWin-Wayland:
> > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373907
> >
> > And the lack of application forwarding over SSH is also a dealbreaker
>  
>  "IMHO never will be" is trolling
>  
>  since most KDE applications got worser and worser over X11-SSH and are 
>  now mostly useless in that context makes at least that dealbreaker 
>  irrelevant - i remeber days where a complete KDE desktop over FreeNX was 
>  a fine thing even with small bandwidth - now even a single application 
>  with 25 Mbit is unuesable because it's faster to take the underground 
>  rail, drive home and look what happened than wait that a simple 
>  operation becomes visible on the remote end 
middle click is also fucked up for
years in KDE while it worked in the 
past as two different clipboards where i was even able to have CTRL+V 
and middle click paste intened different things

now most of the time your selection ends in the normal clipboard which 
is a first class usability shit when you want to replace the selction 
with the clipbard content by press CTRL+V but end due selection replace 
the clipboard

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373907#c5

"has it never happened to you that you copied from the wrong clipboard? 
You selected something and then pasted with ctrl+v? That?s part of the 
usability problem" - yeah, that bullshit happens now for years regulary 
and i don't care who fucked up KDE that terrible in the past - it's fact now

[Ed Greshko]

On 01/08/18 20:50, Jan Grulich wrote:
>  Hi,
>
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and 
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will have 
>  to switch soon or later anyway. With Plasma 5.12 and Qt 5.9+ the situation 
>  with wayland should be way better and given that Plasma 5.12 is an LTS 
>  release, then we have high chance that bugs we find are fixed within this 
>  release cycle. If we find out that wayland is still more unusable than usable 
>  and issues cannot be easily solved, then switching back is easy.
>  Fedora Workstation (Gnome) has switched long time ago, here [1] you can find 
>  their proposal and even they had tons of problems at the beginning, but given 
>  that people actually started using wayland (not just randomly testing it), 
>  then I think it really helped to speed up the whole development process as 
>  people were reporting issues for use cases which the devs couldn not think of 
>  or able to test.
>
>  I'm willing of course to do all the paperwork around, propose a change, write 
>  wiki page, contingency plan and so on and also attempt to help with fixing 
>  wayland issues.
>
>  What do you think about this idea?
>
>  [1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
>  
I will just say that nouveau doesn't play well with my nVidia HW.  So, unless Wayland
works well with the binary nVidia drivers I'm not going to be very interested in
switching.

-- 
Fedora Users List - The place to go to speculate endlessly

[Reindl Harald]

Am 08.01.2018 um 15:17 schrieb Ed Greshko:
>  I will just say that nouveau doesn't play well with my nVidia
> HW.  So, unless Wayland
>  works well with the binary nVidia drivers I'm not going to be very interested in
>  switching 
it's not about switching existing setups - it's about defaults

[Ed Greshko]

On 01/08/18 22:19, Reindl Harald wrote:
>  Am 08.01.2018 um 15:17 schrieb Ed Greshko:
> > I will just say that nouveau doesn't play well with my nVidia HW.  So, unless
> Wayland
> > works well with the binary nVidia drivers I'm not going to be very interested in
> > switching
>
>  it's not about switching existing setups - it's about defaults
>  
I know it is about "defaults".  I'm just indicating that some HW doesn't
work well
with nouveau.  So, unless Wayland works with the nVidia drivers *I* am not interested
in trying it.  Also, for folks that are new to Linux/KDE who may have similar HW they
may be put off by the difficulty getting things working if they first find they need
to ditch nouveau but then again run into more trouble with the defaults when they
switch to nVidia drivers.


-- 
Fedora Users List - The place to go to speculate endlessly

[Adam Batkin]

On 01/08/2018 07:50 AM, Jan Grulich wrote:
>  Hi,
>  
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will have
>  to switch soon or later anyway. With Plasma 5.12 and Qt 5.9+ the situation
>  with wayland should be way better and given that Plasma 5.12 is an LTS
>  release, then we have high chance that bugs we find are fixed within this
>  release cycle. If we find out that wayland is still more unusable than usable
>  and issues cannot be easily solved, then switching back is easy.
>  Fedora Workstation (Gnome) has switched long time ago, here [1] you can find
>  their proposal and even they had tons of problems at the beginning, but given
>  that people actually started using wayland (not just randomly testing it),
>  then I think it really helped to speed up the whole development process as
>  people were reporting issues for use cases which the devs couldn not think of
>  or able to test.
>  
>  I'm willing of course to do all the paperwork around, propose a change, write
>  wiki page, contingency plan and so on and also attempt to help with fixing
>  wayland issues.
>  
>  What do you think about this idea?
>  
>  [1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
>  
>  Regards,
>  Jan 
I'm curious about the status of Wayland + KDE/Plasma and the proprietary 
NVidia drivers. I know we shouldn't be beholden to a big closed-source 
blob, but at the same time we need a usable and productive system. I'm 
not against a small amount of discomfort as things stabilize, since more 
usage will obviously uncover uncharted behaviors, but we all have to be 
committed to working through that.

Thanks,

-Adam Batkin

[Kevin Kofler]

Adam Batkin wrote:
>  I'm curious about the status of Wayland + KDE/Plasma and the
> proprietary
>  NVidia drivers. 
Accelerated rendering on this combination remains completely unsupported,
though KWin 5.12 will support a software-only fallback and should thus at
least run on that driver:
https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2017/10/plasmawayland-and-nvidia-2...

I don't see this changing any time soon because both sides are insisting on
their idea of how the interaction should work and refusing to implement the
other side's API of choice.

I can also fully understand KWin's refusal to implement the EGLStreams API,
which no other driver uses and which is only supported by GNOME Shell /
Mutter at this time (only because the Red Hat Desktop Team is bending over
backwards to NVidia).

See also the position of the Sway developer, who is even less diplomatic
than the KWin one:
http://sircmpwn.github.io/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

        Kevin Kofler

[Reindl Harald]

Am 10.01.2018 um 02:19 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
>  I can also fully understand KWin's refusal to implement the
> EGLStreams API,
>  which no other driver uses and which is only supported by GNOME Shell /
>  Mutter at this time (only because the Red Hat Desktop Team is bending over
>  backwards to NVidia) 
while i don't use Nvidia any longer - this shitty attitude
"others bend 
over" is a problem only for the users - what grahpics card is 
recommended for KDE at all?

i saw Martin also calling Intel drivers names so there is only AMD and 
when they have a new generation which isn't properly supported for 1,2,3 
years on Linux we have nothing at all because "we, the Linux desktop 
community don't want to bender over the reality of hardware our 
potential users could have"

for all-in-one devices you have not that much choices

frankly as i started with Fedora in 2006 all was perfect fine that days 
with my Nividia card, later then KDE4 came and my control bar started to 
flicker all day long with the Nvidia driver and the free driver was even 
too dumb to show correct colors auf the background image - over don#t 
how how many months KDE developers pointed in all directions while other 
desktops with the same hardware worked just fine

for me the problem of KDE is a invory tower full of developers with few 
to no connection to their userbase and KDE4->KDE5 disaster with no 
learning from KDE3->KDE4 has proven that where it took months to become 
barely useable again, alone wait some minutes fpr login instead a few 
seconds as it's now again was a joke and some of the issues are never gone

[Kevin Kofler]

Reindl Harald wrote:
>  frankly as i started with Fedora in 2006 all was perfect fine that
> days
>  with my Nividia card, later then KDE4 came and my control bar started to
>  flicker all day long with the Nvidia driver and the free driver was even
>  too dumb to show correct colors auf the background image - over don#t
>  how how many months KDE developers pointed in all directions while other
>  desktops with the same hardware worked just fine 
All those issues were driver bugs that were eventually fixed in the driver. 
There's not much you can do as a desktop programmer when the drawing 
primitives don't work as documented and as on all other graphics drivers.

        Kevin Kofler

[Reindl Harald]

Am 10.01.2018 um 04:21 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
>  Reindl Harald wrote:
> > frankly as i started with Fedora in 2006 all was perfect fine that days
> > with my Nividia card, later then KDE4 came and my control bar started to
> > flicker all day long with the Nvidia driver and the free driver was even
> > too dumb to show correct colors auf the background image - over don#t
> > how how many months KDE developers pointed in all directions while other
> > desktops with the same hardware worked just fine
>  
>  All those issues were driver bugs that were eventually fixed in the driver.
>  There's not much you can do as a desktop programmer when the drawing
>  primitives don't work as documented and as on all other graphics drivers 
when it only affects KDE and not other desktops that attitude is 
questionable

[Neal Becker]

Jan Grulich wrote:

>  Hi,
>  
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will
>  have to switch soon or later anyway. With Plasma 5.12 and Qt 5.9+ the
>  situation with wayland should be way better and given that Plasma 5.12 is
>  an LTS release, then we have high chance that bugs we find are fixed
>  within this release cycle. If we find out that wayland is still more
>  unusable than usable and issues cannot be easily solved, then switching
>  back is easy. Fedora Workstation (Gnome) has switched long time ago, here
>  [1] you can find their proposal and even they had tons of problems at the
>  beginning, but given that people actually started using wayland (not just
>  randomly testing it), then I think it really helped to speed up the whole
>  development process as people were reporting issues for use cases which
>  the devs couldn not think of or able to test.
>  
>  I'm willing of course to do all the paperwork around, propose a change,
>  write wiki page, contingency plan and so on and also attempt to help with
>  fixing wayland issues.
>  
>  What do you think about this idea?
>  
>  [1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
>  
>  Regards,
>  Jan
>  --
>  Jan Grulich,
>  Software Engineer, Desktop Team
>  Red Hat
>   
Would not produce a good first time user experience on my lenovo X1 carbon.  
plasma/wayland has never worked acceptably.  First it doesn't seem to 
understand the dpi, everything is ridiculously large.  When I try to logout, 
it locks the machine.

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:38 AM, Neal Becker <ndbecker2(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  Would not produce a good first time user experience on my lenovo X1 carbon.
>  plasma/wayland has never worked acceptably.  First it doesn't seem to
>  understand the dpi, everything is ridiculously large.  When I try to
>  logout,
>  it locks the machine.
>  
Did you open a bug?

[Neal Becker]

Gerald B. Cox wrote:

>  On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:38 AM, Neal Becker
>  <ndbecker2(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  
> >
> > Would not produce a good first time user experience on my lenovo X1
> > carbon.
> > plasma/wayland has never worked acceptably.  First it doesn't seem to
> > understand the dpi, everything is ridiculously large.  When I try to
> > logout,
> > it locks the machine.
> >
>  
>  Did you open a bug? 
No I didn't, because I don't know where to start.

Tried it again.  This time on start, fonts look awful.  I tried to open 
settings/display.  Unlike the old X version, this seems to just show my 2 
screens, but there are no controls to do anything.  Clicking on 1 screen 
(IIRC) then caused the screen to start flashing wildly.  That's when I gave 
up.  This time it did not lock the machine when I tried to logoff.  But it 
also took 2 tries to login - the first time just seemed to hang.

So I don't know what bug to report - seems nothing but bugs.

[Gerald B. Cox]

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 4:50 AM, Jan Grulich <jgrulich(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi,
>
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will
>  have
>  to switch soon or later anyway...
>
>  What do you think about this idea?
>  

You're correct... it's inevitable.  Enlarging the test pool is a good thing
- and if people have
issues - they can switch back.  In the meantime, the feedback will help
Wayland / KDE progress.

Go for it.

[Alex Thomas]

I will say the same thing I wish I had said when the gnome side did
this. Unless / until Wayland or its compositors support a remote
desktop solution, Wayland is a non-starter.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt; wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 4:50 AM, Jan Grulich <jgrulich(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
>> attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will
>> have
>> to switch soon or later anyway...
>>
>> What do you think about this idea?
>
>
>
> You're correct... it's inevitable.  Enlarging the test pool is a good thing
> - and if people have
> issues - they can switch back.  In the meantime, the feedback will help
> Wayland / KDE progress.
>
> Go for it.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> kde mailing list -- kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2018-01-08 at 08:50 -0600, Alex Thomas wrote:
>  I will say the same thing I wish I had said when the gnome side did
>  this. Unless / until Wayland or its compositors support a remote
>  desktop solution, Wayland is a non-starter. 
[Please don't top-post here]

I was under the impression that VNC was the way to go here. Am I wrong?

poc

[Reindl Harald]

Am 08.01.2018 um 17:00 schrieb Patrick O'Callaghan:
>  On Mon, 2018-01-08 at 08:50 -0600, Alex Thomas wrote:
> > I will say the same thing I wish I had said when the gnome side did
> > this. Unless / until Wayland or its compositors support a remote
> > desktop solution, Wayland is a non-starter.
>  
>  [Please don't top-post here]
>  
>  I was under the impression that VNC was the way to go here. Am I wrong? 
well, how do you VNC to a single application on a remote machine?

where i live X-forwarding over SSH works because with 25 Mbit upstream 
bandwidth it's no problem

[Matthew Miller]

On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 05:03:17PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
>  well, how do you VNC to a single application on a remote machine?
>  
>  where i live X-forwarding over SSH works because with 25 Mbit
>  upstream bandwidth it's no problem 
It's the latency that really hurts in my experience.

My favorite solution for single-app forwarding is Xpra
(https://xpra.org/). There's discussion of making that work directly
with Wayland (https://www.xpra.org/trac/ticket/387) but of course it
works just fine with X even in a Wayland session.

-- 
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;
Fedora Project Leader

[Reindl Harald]

Am 08.01.2018 um 17:09 schrieb Matthew Miller:
>  On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 05:03:17PM +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
> > well, how do you VNC to a single application on a remote machine?
> >
> > where i live X-forwarding over SSH works because with 25 Mbit
> > upstream bandwidth it's no problem
>  
>  It's the latency that really hurts in my experience. 
for things like gparted or a VMware installer running as root on a 
remote machine out of a terminal it's good enough with a 10 ms ping as 
well as to operate a VMware window to start, stop and edit virtual 
machines which run in backround and then are operated wioth the builtin 
native VNC console over a SSH tunnel which is pretty fast and hence used 
here even to act with local running virtual machines for consistency

> My favorite solution for single-app forwarding is Xpra
> (https://xpra.org/). There's discussion of making that work directly
> with Wayland (https://www.xpra.org/trac/ticket/387) but of course it
> works just fine with X even in a Wayland session

[Rex Dieter]

Alex Thomas wrote:

>  I will say the same thing I wish I had said when the gnome side did
>  this. Unless / until Wayland or its compositors support a remote
>  desktop solution, Wayland is a non-starter. 
Adding wayland support does not imply X11 session support will be removed 
(where remote desktop functionality is available).  Far from it. X11 session 
will remain pretty much indefinitely (ie, there are no plans to remove it)

-- Rex

[Jan Grulich]

On pondělí 8. ledna 2018 15:50:49 CET Alex Thomas wrote:
>  I will say the same thing I wish I had said when the gnome side did
>  this. Unless / until Wayland or its compositors support a remote
>  desktop solution, Wayland is a non-starter.
>   
There is PipeWire which should solve this problem, just someone has to 
implement support on KDE side. There will be a PipeWire hackfest in a month or 
so which I plan to attend, hopefully this will get all figured out soon.

>  On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Gerald B. Cox <gbcox(a)bzb.us&gt;
> wrote:
>  
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 4:50 AM, Jan Grulich <jgrulich(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  > 
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> Hi,
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
>  >> attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will
>  >> have
>  >> to switch soon or later anyway...
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> What do you think about this idea?
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > You're correct... it's inevitable.  Enlarging the test pool is a good
>  > thing 
 - and if people have
>  > issues - they can switch back.  In the meantime, the feedback
> will help
>  > Wayland / KDE progress.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Go for it.
>  >

[Frédéric]

If I understand correctly wayland is not currently the default for the
KDE spin. Why then when I upgraded from F25 KDE spin to F27 with dnf
system-upgrade did I see a lot of wayland in the package names? Is it
possible that I switched to wayland automatically?
F

[Reindl Harald]

Am 08.01.2018 um 15:44 schrieb Frédéric:
>  If I understand correctly wayland is not currently the default for
> the
>  KDE spin. Why then when I upgraded from F25 KDE spin to F27 with dnf
>  system-upgrade did I see a lot of wayland in the package names?  
because otherwise packages which are linked against wayland could not be 
installed - that's how software and packages works

[harry@srv-rhsoft:~]$ rpm -qa | grep wayland
libwayland-server-1.13.0-3.fc26.x86_64
mesa-libwayland-egl-17.2.4-2.fc26.x86_64
libwayland-client-1.13.0-3.fc26.x86_64
kf5-kwayland-5.41.0-1.fc26.x86_64
libwayland-cursor-1.13.0-3.fc26.x86_64

>  Is it
>  possible that I switched to wayland automatically? 
unlikely, my machine was installed with F14 and is upgraded since then 
to F26 with "dnf --releasever=xx distro-sync" and is running anything as 
before

[Frédéric]

>  unlikely, my machine was installed with F14 and is upgraded since
> then to
>  F26 with "dnf --releasever=xx distro-sync" and is running anything as before
I did slightly differently: dnf system-upgrade

how can I check if I am running wayland or X?

[Alex Gurenko]

 I am supporting the idea, but I think minimum stability/feature level
needs to be achieved. I have not tried Wayland for few Plasma releases with
Intel graphics, but the main issue I can see is nVidia hardware.
Proprietary nVidia drivers do not support Wayland and don't plan at this
moment. Noveau does not support re-clocking for last 2 generations of
hardware already (and I'm not sure the state of wayland support), so it
leaves out a lot of people.
 Overall I think it will generate a lot of feedback that will push forward
the development, but I'm not sure if KDE is moving fast enough to provide
good user experience. It's a tough and not obvious call in my opinion. If
it is going to be the default, it needs to be well tested and limitations
need to be well understood.

*---*

*Yours truly, Alex*


On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Jan Grulich <jgrulich(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Hi,
>
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28. We will
>  have
>  to switch soon or later anyway. With Plasma 5.12 and Qt 5.9+ the situation
>  with wayland should be way better and given that Plasma 5.12 is an LTS
>  release, then we have high chance that bugs we find are fixed within this
>  release cycle. If we find out that wayland is still more unusable than
>  usable
>  and issues cannot be easily solved, then switching back is easy.
>  Fedora Workstation (Gnome) has switched long time ago, here [1] you can
>  find
>  their proposal and even they had tons of problems at the beginning, but
>  given
>  that people actually started using wayland (not just randomly testing it),
>  then I think it really helped to speed up the whole development process as
>  people were reporting issues for use cases which the devs couldn not think
>  of
>  or able to test.
>
>  I'm willing of course to do all the paperwork around, propose a change,
>  write
>  wiki page, contingency plan and so on and also attempt to help with fixing
>  wayland issues.
>
>  What do you think about this idea?
>
>  [1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault
>
>  Regards,
>  Jan
>  --
>  Jan Grulich,
>  Software Engineer, Desktop Team
>  Red Hat
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  kde mailing list -- kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>

[Rex Dieter]

Jan Grulich wrote:

>  Hi,
>  
>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward and
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28....
>  What do you think about this idea? 
...
>  [1] - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefault 
I think it's very ambitious, but at least worth trying.

Even if using wayland by default doesn't work out, we can take the baby step 
of including wayland session support in the kde spin now.

-- Rex

[Rex Dieter]

Jan Grulich wrote:

>  I would like to discuss and propose that we as KDE SIG move forward
> and
>  attempt to use Wayland as default for our KDE Spin in Fedora 28.  
Discussed in today's kde-sig meeting, and all present agreed to move forward 
with this proposal,

https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2018-01-09/kde-sig.2018-...

We'll have more to discuss and refine once we have a concrete change 
proposal to review (which Jan will work on).

-- Rex

[Germano Massullo]

I am not in KDE SIG, but as person who has been testing Plasma on
Wayland since many months, my opinion is that Plasma is not ready at all
for Wayland as default option. The concrete risk is that this decision
will push a lot of Fedora users away from Fedora KDE Spin, seriously.
Forcing Wayland as default session only for innovation sake, is not a
good decision.

Some of problems I experienced:
- **very, very** frequent plasma crashes;
- **very** frequent crashes of applications, even KDE applications like
Konsole, Konversation, etc.
- Qt and Gtk applications have two different copy&paste stacks;
- virtual desktops are not working;
- mouse pointer has an insane dimension (it got bigger);
- misplaced notification popups;
- sometimes when shutting down the system, the system does not poweroff,
forcing the user to unplug the power cable or use Magic Sys Req if the
user is so lucky to have it enabled. I have heard this has been fixed
but I haven't tested it yet;
- odd behaviour of various applications.

*Some* bugreport references:

Plasma crash: Crash in wl_proxy_create_wrapper in QtWayland after window
destruction
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=381630

[Wayland] Konversation crash -
QVector<KWayland::Client::ConnectionThread*>::reallocData
(this=this@entry=0x7fffde8016b0
<KWayland::Client::ConnectionThread::Private::connections>, asize=21845
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387448

[Wayland] Konversation crash
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=386998

QtWaylandClient::QWaylandDisplay::exitWithError()
(this=this@entry=0x555555f294b0) at qwaylanddisplay.cpp:200
https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-60170

[Wayland] Qt and Gtk applications have two different copy&paste stacks
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=378711

[Reindl Harald]

Am 09.01.2018 um 18:15 schrieb Germano Massullo:
>  - sometimes when shutting down the system, the system does not
> poweroff,
>  forcing the user to unplug the power cable or use Magic Sys Req if the
>  user is so lucky to have it enabled 
at least that is nonsense - every machine built within the last 15 years 
reacts to a short press of the power button which signals the kernel to 
do a shutdown which can't be changed from any user space application

frankly "unplug the power cable" shows that you clearly have not much 
clue about computers - a long press of the power-button *always* powers 
off the machine without touch any cable

[Jason L Tibbitts III]

> >>>> "RH" == Reindl Harald
> <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net&gt; writes: 
RH> at least that is nonsense - every machine built within the last 15
RH> years reacts to a short press of the power button which signals the
RH> kernel to do a shutdown which can't be changed from any user space
RH> application

Off topic, I know, but that's incorrect.  In fact, for all of my user
desktops, I configure the power button to simply log out all local
sessions.  (I also disconnect the reset buttons.)  If you tell systemd
not to handle the power button it passes control to acpid, and you can
tell acpid to run any executable you like.

Of course the long-press of the power button is done in hardware and
can't be controlled by the OS.

 - J<

[Reindl Harald]

Am 09.01.2018 um 20:07 schrieb Jason L Tibbitts III:
> >>>>> "RH" == Reindl Harald
> <h.reindl(a)thelounge.net&gt; writes:
>  
>  RH> at least that is nonsense - every machine built within the last 15
>  RH> years reacts to a short press of the power button which signals the
>  RH> kernel to do a shutdown which can't be changed from any user space
>  RH> application
>  
>  Off topic, I know, but that's incorrect.  In fact, for all of my user
>  desktops, I configure the power button to simply log out all local
>  sessions.  (I also disconnect the reset buttons.)  If you tell systemd
>  not to handle the power button it passes control to acpid, and you can
>  tell acpid to run any executable you like. 
PEBCAK - if you decide to shoot yourself in the foot, well...

default is a controlled shutdown and so a fucked up userland process 
don't force you to do a hard power-off

[Germano Massullo]

Il 09/01/2018 18:30, Reindl Harald ha scritto:
>  Am 09.01.2018 um 18:15 schrieb Germano Massullo:
> > - sometimes when shutting down the system, the system does not poweroff,
> > forcing the user to unplug the power cable or use Magic Sys Req if the
> > user is so lucky to have it enabled
>
>  at least that is nonsense - every machine built within the last 15
>  years reacts to a short press of the power button which signals the
>  kernel to do a shutdown which can't be changed from any user space
>  application 
Then come to my home and ask my Lenovo Thinkpad X220 why it does not
know that it should shutdown with a short press of power button. It is
such a baaad boooy!

>  frankly "unplug the power cable" shows that you clearly
> have not much
>  clue about computers - a long press of the power-button *always*
>  powers off the machine without touch any cable 
It was simply a metaphor for hard reset, does it really matter in this
discussion?.

Anyway, this is the bugreport reference to the mentioned problem
https://github.com/sddm/sddm/issues/897
<<[...]When logging out of a plasma wayland session the system is
completely frozen. There are no other solution than a hard reboot.[...]>>

[Luigi Toscano]

Germano Massullo ha scritto:
>  I am not in KDE SIG, but as person who has been testing Plasma on
>  Wayland since many months, my opinion is that Plasma is not ready at all
>  for Wayland as default option. The concrete risk is that this decision
>  will push a lot of Fedora users away from Fedora KDE Spin, seriously.
>  Forcing Wayland as default session only for innovation sake, is not a
>  good decision. 
I suggest to re-read the meeting minutes from today's meeting:
https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2018-01-09/kde-sig.2018-...

tl;dr the Wayland session (in parallel with the X11) will be provided anyway;
the status of the default will be evaluated at the proper time before the release.

-- 
Luigi

[Jaroslav Reznik]

On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Germano Massullo
<germano.massullo(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I am not in KDE SIG, but as person who has been testing Plasma on
>  Wayland since many months, my opinion is that Plasma is not ready at all
>  for Wayland as default option. The concrete risk is that this decision
>  will push a lot of Fedora users away from Fedora KDE Spin, seriously.
>  Forcing Wayland as default session only for innovation sake, is not a
>  good decision.
>
>  Some of problems I experienced:
>  - **very, very** frequent plasma crashes;
>  - **very** frequent crashes of applications, even KDE applications like
>  Konsole, Konversation, etc. 
I don't see many crashes but yes, it crashes time to time.

>  - Qt and Gtk applications have two different copy&paste stacks;
>  - virtual desktops are not working;
>  - mouse pointer has an insane dimension (it got bigger); 
Same here.

>  - misplaced notification popups; 
Same here.

>  - sometimes when shutting down the system, the system does not
> poweroff,
>  forcing the user to unplug the power cable or use Magic Sys Req if the
>  user is so lucky to have it enabled. I have heard this has been fixed
>  but I haven't tested it yet;
>  - odd behaviour of various applications. 
Most of my issues with Plasma & Wayland are somehow related to
external monitor setup. I switched from three screens to two screens
setup and it's a bit better but I can see crashes when second monitor
is disconnected, misplacements (krunner opens on second inactive
screen). On the other hand, on single screen setup it progressed a lot
and it's closer to be usable as a daily driver.

To be honest, I'm really not sure how to help with Wayland - I have no
idea how to debug things and a lot of issues are just some strange
behavior that's difficult to explain and reproduce :(.

One big missing feature is screen sharing - I already migrated a lot
of folks here using Red Hat to G-S X11 session...

I couldn't make Tuesday's meeting...

Jaroslav

>  *Some* bugreport references:
>
>  Plasma crash: Crash in wl_proxy_create_wrapper in QtWayland after window
>  destruction
>  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=381630
>
>  [Wayland] Konversation crash -
>  QVector<KWayland::Client::ConnectionThread*>::reallocData
>  (this=this@entry=0x7fffde8016b0
>  <KWayland::Client::ConnectionThread::Private::connections>, asize=21845
>  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387448
>
>  [Wayland] Konversation crash
>  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=386998
>
>  QtWaylandClient::QWaylandDisplay::exitWithError()
>  (this=this@entry=0x555555f294b0) at qwaylanddisplay.cpp:200
>  https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-60170
>
>  [Wayland] Qt and Gtk applications have two different copy&paste stacks
>  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=378711
>  _______________________________________________
>  kde mailing list -- kde(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  To unsubscribe send an email to kde-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org 


-- 
Jaroslav Řezník <jreznik(a)redhat.com&gt;
Engineering Program Manager

Office: [phone]
Mobile: [phone]
Red Hat, Inc.                               http://www.redhat.com/