Jul 07 19:03:17 <gregdek_home>	Okey doke.  Not many, but enough to start, I think.  We'll see if other people filter in.
Jul 07 19:03:29 <gregdek_home>	So, darko: what are you thinking so far?
Jul 07 19:04:17 <darkoilic>	well, I`ve just downloaded rookery..
Jul 07 19:04:30 <gregdek_home>	Had a chance to play with it yet?
Jul 07 19:04:36 <darkoilic>	want to try it a bit and to see if I like it for starting point
Jul 07 19:04:44 <gregdek_home>	OK.
Jul 07 19:05:10 <darkoilic>	I`ve tried to setup stateless, but it seems it doesnt work on fc4
Jul 07 19:05:13 <gregdek_home>	So to make the goal clear: we're shooting for an application that allows anyone to make their own LiveCD, with their own content, as easily as possible.  We all get that?
Jul 07 19:05:26 <tlisjac>	a lot of things aren't working with FC4
Jul 07 19:05:27 <gregdek_home>	Yeah, stateless decay doesn't surprise me... no one has been working on it for a few months.
Jul 07 19:06:17 <gregdek_home>	darkoilic: Have you already done LiveCD stuff?
Jul 07 19:06:19 <darkoilic>	my primary goal is to provide a tool that can be used for Fedora official live CDs
Jul 07 19:06:26 -->	sgrubb (~sgrubb@pool-70-19-234-48.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #fedora-livecd
Jul 07 19:06:36 <gregdek_home>	Ah, we have a steve.
Jul 07 19:06:38 <darkoilic>	no, I haven`t
Jul 07 19:06:45 <sgrubb>	hello
Jul 07 19:06:49 <darkoilic>	hi
Jul 07 19:06:56 <tlisjac>	greetings!
Jul 07 19:07:33 <gregdek_home>	sgrubb, darko is playing with rookery now.
Jul 07 19:07:49 <gregdek_home>	And apparently stateless stuff isn't working with fc4...
Jul 07 19:08:05 <sgrubb>	cool. Let me know if there's anything I can help with
Jul 07 19:08:07 <gregdek_home>	...which kinda takes that out of the running straightaway, if that's the case.
Jul 07 19:08:31 <gregdek_home>	The other possibility we have is the ADIOS stuff by Neville, but he doesn't appear to be joining us.  :)
Jul 07 19:08:47 <tlisjac>	I was hoping he would
Jul 07 19:09:03 <tlisjac>	perhaps he's teaching a class... it's still early "down under"
Jul 07 19:09:03 <darkoilic>	He is from australia, right?
Jul 07 19:09:09 <gregdek_home>	Yes, he is.
Jul 07 19:09:14 <tlisjac>	or NZ
Jul 07 19:09:17 <darkoilic>	is a bit early there
Jul 07 19:09:35 <darkoilic>	maybe he is still drinking his morning coffie
Jul 07 19:09:39 <gregdek_home>	But he never responded to the email (at least that I saw).  And we need a decision so that darko in particular can get started.
Jul 07 19:09:54 <gregdek_home>	Since his google clock is ticking.  ;-)
Jul 07 19:10:08 <tlisjac>	Adios has a LOT of really good ideas
Jul 07 19:10:12 <tlisjac>	it's worth a look
Jul 07 19:10:15 <gregdek_home>	Can you summarize them?
Jul 07 19:10:34 <tlisjac>	Neville has put a lot of load options into it
Jul 07 19:10:48 <tlisjac>	so you can tailor the performance to the type of machine you're running
Jul 07 19:11:17 <tlisjac>	there is a lot of good container handling in it that could apply here
Jul 07 19:11:20 <gregdek_home>	It uses squashfs too, right?
Jul 07 19:11:29 <tlisjac>	yes
Jul 07 19:11:30 <darkoilic>	yup
Jul 07 19:11:42 <tlisjac>	he also embeds UML... which is very interesting
Jul 07 19:11:52 <tlisjac>	but I'm not sure it's a generic enough feature for this project
Jul 07 19:11:55 <gregdek_home>	So since that appears to be on its way to acceptance upstream, we're agreed that we'll use squashfs?
Jul 07 19:12:11 <sgrubb>	I thought it was accepoted and in 2.6.12
Jul 07 19:12:17 <tlisjac>	compared to cloop and mkisofs, it's far superios
Jul 07 19:12:19 <tlisjac>	superior
Jul 07 19:12:24 <gregdek_home>	Oh, okay.
Jul 07 19:12:31 *	gregdek_home is behind on his reading then.  :)
Jul 07 19:12:32 <sgrubb>	cloop was a no go in my book
Jul 07 19:12:52 <tlisjac>	I saw some selinux policies for squashfs in the last update... so I think it is in the new kernel
Jul 07 19:13:05 <sgrubb>	I think we need to stay close to the real distribution and not get too far away from it
Jul 07 19:13:13 <gregdek_home>	Agreed.
Jul 07 19:13:17 <tlisjac>	right
Jul 07 19:13:54 <sgrubb>	The file system is a minor issue to me
Jul 07 19:13:57 <gregdek_home>	So Steve, any hints?  Do you have a laundry list of "issues I'd attack with rookery if only I had the time"?
Jul 07 19:14:07 <sgrubb>	We really need to figure out how to get the size down
Jul 07 19:14:19 <gregdek_home>	OK.  Some ideas that seemed to bubble up:
Jul 07 19:14:38 <gregdek_home>	* Stripping out languages.
Jul 07 19:14:50 <sgrubb>	big win there
Jul 07 19:14:59 <gregdek_home>	I know that knoppix makes different images per language.
Jul 07 19:15:22 <gregdek_home>	What's that entail?  Just pulling po files before building?
Jul 07 19:15:26 <sgrubb>	I put several things in rookery to try to lower size
Jul 07 19:15:29 <tlisjac>	you mean the locale and TZ stuff from glibc?
Jul 07 19:15:50 <sgrubb>	I'm looking
Jul 07 19:16:01 <gregdek_home>	Well, it's mostly that language support blows up the size of each individual package, right?
Jul 07 19:16:31 <tlisjac>	the locale and TZ stuff was about 100 megs in RH9
Jul 07 19:16:51 <sgrubb>	in livecd_3_finalize I pull out /usr/share/locale/ most languages
Jul 07 19:16:57 <tlisjac>	I stripped it out after I created the image in the little builder I made
Jul 07 19:17:32 <gregdek_home>	How tough would it be to allow easy selection of which languages to pull out at build time?
Jul 07 19:17:48 <sgrubb>	should be simple
Jul 07 19:18:06 <gregdek_home>	darkoilic: You following?
Jul 07 19:18:11 <darkoilic>	yup
Jul 07 19:18:26 <gregdek_home>	K.  sgrubb: What other big things on the list?
Jul 07 19:18:40 <sgrubb>	package selection
Jul 07 19:19:01 <sgrubb>	someone may want gnome only or server only
Jul 07 19:19:21 <gregdek_home>	Is the issue walking the dep tree>
Jul 07 19:19:21 <gregdek_home>	?
Jul 07 19:19:22 <sgrubb>	should be a way to suggest missing packages
Jul 07 19:19:36 <sgrubb>	yes
Jul 07 19:19:42 <tlisjac>	yum handles that
Jul 07 19:19:46 <sgrubb>	There are missing dependencies too
Jul 07 19:19:50 <tlisjac>	are we not talking builds from repositories?
Jul 07 19:19:50 <gregdek_home>	Indeed it does.
Jul 07 19:19:58 <gregdek_home>	Well, kinda.
Jul 07 19:20:10 <darkoilic>	deps are solved in rookery, right?
Jul 07 19:20:13 <gregdek_home>	I know that anaconda is being reworked to use the depsolving code from yum...
Jul 07 19:20:25 <sgrubb>	there's really 2 phases. Build packages and build livecd 
Jul 07 19:20:40 <sgrubb>	some people want to build their own, some don''t
Jul 07 19:20:54 <sgrubb>	rookery does have a way to find build dependencies
Jul 07 19:21:06 <tlisjac>	build packages?
Jul 07 19:21:14 <sgrubb>	I have a large patch to correct many dependency issues
Jul 07 19:21:19 *	gregdek_home thinks a sec...
Jul 07 19:21:38 <sgrubb>	but, I was working on way to get some of the missing dependencies caused by shell scripts
Jul 07 19:21:51 <gregdek_home>	OK, so the packages that are built for a Live CD.  Are they fundamentally different than a package that you just install on a standard FC box?
Jul 07 19:22:01 <sgrubb>	rpm does not count shell script  when doing provides
Jul 07 19:22:13 <tlisjac>	you mean pre-install scripts?
Jul 07 19:22:16 <sgrubb>	doesn't have to be
Jul 07 19:22:32 <sgrubb>	In theory, you should be able to use FC4 repo
Jul 07 19:22:38 <gregdek_home>	OK.
Jul 07 19:22:47 <gregdek_home>	So that's probably the place to start, I would think.
Jul 07 19:22:50 <darkoilic>	I`ll try that tomorrow
Jul 07 19:22:59 <gregdek_home>	Simple selection of pre-built packages.
Jul 07 19:23:00 <sgrubb>	If it would be easier, we can pull the livecd stuff out of rookery
Jul 07 19:23:32 <gregdek_home>	Does the livecd stuff not require rookery?
Jul 07 19:23:34 <sgrubb>	and separate them so we don't get hung up on building
Jul 07 19:23:51 <sgrubb>	not really. I added the two as convenience
Jul 07 19:23:56 <gregdek_home>	Ah, ok.
Jul 07 19:24:03 <gregdek_home>	To use the same front-end?
Jul 07 19:24:31 <sgrubb>	No. Nalin said nothing serious should be created with dialog
Jul 07 19:24:43 <gregdek_home>	Ha!  OK.
Jul 07 19:24:46 <sgrubb>	It doesn't understand i18n
Jul 07 19:25:06 <darkoilic>	Grubb, how many changes you have made to linux4all scripts when creating your livecd scripts?
Jul 07 19:25:21 <sgrubb>	not a whole lot
Jul 07 19:25:35 <gregdek_home>	Ah.
Jul 07 19:25:38 <sgrubb>	I have solidified the proceedure
Jul 07 19:25:50 <gregdek_home>	So this is from the linux4all.de stuff originally, then?
Jul 07 19:25:52 <sgrubb>	It was mostlyundocumented
Jul 07 19:25:59 <sgrubb>	yes
Jul 07 19:26:01 <gregdek_home>	Gotcha.
Jul 07 19:26:09 <darkoilic>	I know :)
Jul 07 19:26:12 <sgrubb>	I can say that it works
Jul 07 19:26:30 <gregdek_home>	OK.  So: package selection.
Jul 07 19:26:31 <sgrubb>	Dirk should really be part of this
Jul 07 19:26:36 <gregdek_home>	Yes, he should.
Jul 07 19:26:51 <gregdek_home>	I sent him a note a few months back and never got a reply.  Do you have more direct contact with him?
Jul 07 19:27:09 <sgrubb>	He has several email addresses
Jul 07 19:27:15 <sgrubb>	I can try
Jul 07 19:27:17 <gregdek_home>	Does he check any of them?  :)
Jul 07 19:27:48 <sgrubb>	I think sometime the mail sever routes them to /dev/null
Jul 07 19:27:59 <gregdek_home>	He's clearly looking for a new host, too, from what it says on the site.
Jul 07 19:27:59 <sgrubb>	seriously
Jul 07 19:28:14 <sgrubb>	he was getting it from his employer
Jul 07 19:28:20 <gregdek_home>	???
Jul 07 19:28:23 <sgrubb>	maybe thats what changed
Jul 07 19:28:37 <sgrubb>	he worked for isp
Jul 07 19:28:39 <gregdek_home>	Well, let's make every attempt to drag him in asap.
Jul 07 19:29:10 <gregdek_home>	So: package selection.
Jul 07 19:29:26 <gregdek_home>	What are the issues?  Is it currently just a pain to get a happy set?
Jul 07 19:29:34 <sgrubb>	The only issue I had with Dirk's work was that he broke the technique into too many steps.
Jul 07 19:29:52 <tlisjac>	gotta go... have good evening
Jul 07 19:29:58 <--	tlisjac has quit ("Leaving")
Jul 07 19:30:02 <gregdek_home>	Bye, tom.  :)
Jul 07 19:30:05 <sgrubb>	The scripts in the rookery that really count are in /opt/livecd/scripts
Jul 07 19:30:27 <sgrubb>	it breaks it into 3 steps
Jul 07 19:31:00 <sgrubb>	someone could create a package selection & config script in python without affecting the scripts here
Jul 07 19:31:21 <sgrubb>	step 1 was getting the image created
Jul 07 19:31:38 <sgrubb>	step 2 is installing the packages...which is tricky
Jul 07 19:31:54 <sgrubb>	I have some ideas about how to make that better
Jul 07 19:32:12 <sgrubb>	right now it copies all packagesd into image
Jul 07 19:32:19 <sgrubb>	and then does chroot install
Jul 07 19:32:35 <sgrubb>	it could mount another oartition
Jul 07 19:32:48 <sgrubb>	and read packages from there
Jul 07 19:33:04 <gregdek_home>	So how should the python script work?  "Pick your packages, and then click 'resolve!'"  And, "these packages require these other 10 packages!"  Or, "these packages work fine!"
Jul 07 19:33:11 <sgrubb>	The biggest problem is what to do when you run out of space
Jul 07 19:33:34 <sgrubb>	gregdek, I would suggest making it like anaconda
Jul 07 19:34:14 <sgrubb>	I think rookery does test also
Jul 07 19:34:19 <gregdek_home>	What does anaconda do?  I usually just install groups -- seldom do individual package selection in anaconda...
Jul 07 19:34:36 <sgrubb>	I always do custom install from anaconda
Jul 07 19:35:05 <gregdek_home>	And what happens if you pick packages that have missing deps?
Jul 07 19:35:11 <sgrubb>	I think rpm -ivh --test
Jul 07 19:35:58 <sgrubb>	The pythin script should write to config file
Jul 07 19:36:19 <sgrubb>	Then one of these other scripts can pickup the config and do the install
Jul 07 19:36:43 <gregdek_home>	darkoilic: making sense to you?
Jul 07 19:36:51 <darkoilic>	yes
Jul 07 19:37:18 <darkoilic>	actualy, it is something like I was intended to do
Jul 07 19:37:25 <sgrubb>	in /opt/livecd-devl/conf
Jul 07 19:37:34 <gregdek_home>	Cool.
Jul 07 19:37:38 <sgrubb>	is buildroot.config
Jul 07 19:37:55 <sgrubb>	This is what needs to be filled in
Jul 07 19:38:34 <sgrubb>	language selection would be new
Jul 07 19:39:08 <sgrubb>	we can rename some of these vars
Jul 07 19:39:18 <sgrubb>	but anyways it would be a starting point
Jul 07 19:39:20 <gregdek_home>	So the big issues so far:
Jul 07 19:39:43 <gregdek_home>	1. Strip down size by stripping out languages, allowing selectable locales;
Jul 07 19:40:02 <gregdek_home>	2. Package selection script to build out the buildroot.config properly.
Jul 07 19:40:08 <gregdek_home>	That about it to start?
Jul 07 19:40:22 <sgrubb>	pretty much
Jul 07 19:40:30 <sgrubb>	I'd do the config part first
Jul 07 19:40:53 <sgrubb>	The scripts in rookery are good enough to start with
Jul 07 19:41:05 <darkoilic>	I wanted to use anaconda code base to create anaconda-like app for package selection
Jul 07 19:41:15 <sgrubb>	in terms of doing the actual moving around of files
Jul 07 19:41:25 <gregdek_home>	And then there's the question of where the code lives.
Jul 07 19:41:38 <sgrubb>	darkoilic, that would be good. This makes people feel comfortable
Jul 07 19:41:50 <sgrubb>	in what way?
Jul 07 19:41:56 <sgrubb>	cvs?
Jul 07 19:41:59 <gregdek_home>	Yep.
Jul 07 19:42:00 <sgrubb>	directory?
Jul 07 19:42:14 <gregdek_home>	We just need to get cvs set up, I think.
Jul 07 19:42:28 <gregdek_home>	I've talked to Sopwith about that, but it may take him a bit to get everything set up.
Jul 07 19:42:50 <gregdek_home>	In the meantime, I suppose we can do without it for a little while...?
Jul 07 19:42:57 <sgrubb>	sure
Jul 07 19:43:00 <darkoilic>	fine by me
Jul 07 19:43:09 <sgrubb>	I promise not to do any pythin
Jul 07 19:43:14 <darkoilic>	:)
Jul 07 19:43:20 <gregdek_home>	Heh.
Jul 07 19:43:28 <gregdek_home>	darkoilic: Got enough to start?
Jul 07 19:43:31 <darkoilic>	I read somewere that you really don`t like it...
Jul 07 19:44:05 <sgrubb>	well you can only learn so many languages and they start bluring...
Jul 07 19:44:12 <gregdek_home>	jython!
Jul 07 19:44:19 <darkoilic>	well, I had a bit different plan, but I can chage it..
Jul 07 19:44:23 <gregdek_home>	*Literally* blurring!
Jul 07 19:44:38 <gregdek_home>	darkoilic: What was your plan?
Jul 07 19:45:11 <darkoilic>	I wanted to manualy create livecd, and then to write scripts that would do the same job
Jul 07 19:45:24 <darkoilic>	so, i wanted do solve some other problems first
Jul 07 19:45:33 <darkoilic>	like rw stuff
Jul 07 19:45:38 <darkoilic>	init changes
Jul 07 19:45:41 <darkoilic>	etc
Jul 07 19:46:13 <gregdek_home>	Have you already started much down that path?
Jul 07 19:46:53 <darkoilic>	Well, like I said, I had problems getting stateles to work..
Jul 07 19:47:04 <darkoilic>	now I`m looking at rookery
Jul 07 19:47:06 <gregdek_home>	Ah, ok.
Jul 07 19:47:23 <darkoilic>	and I`ll install fc3 tomorrow to make stateless work
Jul 07 19:47:32 <sgrubb>	darkoilic, There's really 5 stages
Jul 07 19:47:35 <sgrubb>	1) config
Jul 07 19:47:40 <sgrubb>	2) make image
Jul 07 19:47:45 <sgrubb>	3) install
Jul 07 19:47:51 <sgrubb>	5) finalize
Jul 07 19:47:59 <sgrubb>	5) boot
Jul 07 19:48:13 <sgrubb>	each have separate problems
Jul 07 19:48:23 <darkoilic>	yes
Jul 07 19:48:32 <sgrubb>	you can do 1,2,3&4 and still have the fun of boot
Jul 07 19:48:58 <sgrubb>	2 & 3 I think I have working
Jul 07 19:49:03 <darkoilic>	yes, you are right
Jul 07 19:49:09 <sgrubb>	 & 4
Jul 07 19:49:20 <sgrubb>	excpet for languages
Jul 07 19:49:32 <darkoilic>	so, I should start with 1
Jul 07 19:49:35 <sgrubb>	Some of the fun stuff you are talking about is step 5
Jul 07 19:49:35 <darkoilic>	python
Jul 07 19:49:58 <sgrubb>	I personally think that would be good
Jul 07 19:50:10 <sgrubb>	 We could use my stuff as is for 2,3,4
Jul 07 19:50:10 <darkoilic>	yes, I think you are right
Jul 07 19:50:15 <gregdek_home>	darkoilic: Do you blog, by any chance?
Jul 07 19:50:22 <darkoilic>	no
Jul 07 19:50:23 <sgrubb>	That takes us all the way to boot
Jul 07 19:50:30 <sgrubb>	quickly
Jul 07 19:50:40 <sgrubb>	That is where the hard problems are
Jul 07 19:51:01 <darkoilic>	but that`s the interesting part 
Jul 07 19:51:12 <gregdek_home>	Heh.
Jul 07 19:51:12 <darkoilic>	for me..
Jul 07 19:51:12 <sgrubb>	BTW, do you have re-writable CD
Jul 07 19:51:20 <darkoilic>	yup
Jul 07 19:51:43 <sgrubb>	good. Debugging gets expensive with normal CDs
Jul 07 19:51:53 <darkoilic>	not a problem
Jul 07 19:52:22 <gregdek_home>	OK.  Sounds like you're ready to run.
Jul 07 19:52:50 <gregdek_home>	Is this kind of scheduled irc meet useful?
Jul 07 19:53:02 <sgrubb>	I think so
Jul 07 19:53:13 <darkoilic>	yes, I think
Jul 07 19:53:23 <gregdek_home>	If we can get hold of Dirk, that'd be even better.
Jul 07 19:53:35 <sgrubb>	I'll track him down
Jul 07 19:53:47 <gregdek_home>	Is there another time that suits?  Doesn't look like we've had any Aussie participation...
Jul 07 19:53:50 <sgrubb>	He had another interesting problem solved
Jul 07 19:54:08 <sgrubb>	I like earlier
Jul 07 19:54:15 <gregdek_home>	darko, how about you?
Jul 07 19:54:21 <darkoilic>	I`m in GMT+2
Jul 07 19:54:33 <darkoilic>	so, it`s 2AM now
Jul 07 19:54:46 <gregdek_home>	Heh.  So yes, earlier is better for you too, I would guess.  :)
Jul 07 19:54:47 <darkoilic>	I could earlier, but not later
Jul 07 19:54:56 <darkoilic>	yes
Jul 07 19:55:20 <gregdek_home>	So how's 15:00 GMT?
Jul 07 19:55:23 <sgrubb>	5pm gmt might be nice
Jul 07 19:55:32 <gregdek_home>	Oh, yeah.
Jul 07 19:55:37 <darkoilic>	both are fine by me
Jul 07 19:56:00 <sgrubb>	5pm gmt would be right after lunch
Jul 07 19:56:23 <gregdek_home>	On Thursday, that conflicts with fedora-extras.
Jul 07 19:56:51 <sgrubb>	what else is good
Jul 07 19:57:02 *	gregdek_home goes to look at worldclock... timezones make my head hurt :)
Jul 07 19:57:32 <gregdek_home>	darkoilic: Where are you, exactly?
Jul 07 19:57:44 <darkoilic>	Serbia and Montenegro
Jul 07 19:57:55 <darkoilic>	Former yugoslavia
Jul 07 19:58:08 <darkoilic>	ring any bells ? :)
Jul 07 19:58:21 <gregdek_home>	Americans aren't so good at geography.  :)
Jul 07 19:58:26 <gregdek_home>	Belgrade in your TZ?
Jul 07 19:58:30 <darkoilic>	yes
Jul 07 19:59:51 <gregdek_home>	OK!  10am Eastern US time = 4pm CET = 1400 GMT!
Jul 07 19:59:51 <gregdek_home>	How's that?
Jul 07 20:00:06 <gregdek_home>	On Thursdays?
Jul 07 20:00:18 <darkoilic>	everything you say
Jul 07 20:00:55 <darkoilic>	And grubb, what is the interesting problem that you have mentioned?
Jul 07 20:01:21 <sgrubb>	getting the gui to work. :)
Jul 07 20:01:44 <gregdek_home>	Dammit.  Grr.
Jul 07 20:01:44 <darkoilic>	gui for what?
Jul 07 20:01:44 <sgrubb>	I think it has to do with reducing the image size
Jul 07 20:01:58 <sgrubb>	so that enough libraries fit
Jul 07 20:02:01 <gregdek_home>	How's Wednesday 1400 GMT instead of Thursday?
Jul 07 20:02:10 <darkoilic>	fine :)
Jul 07 20:02:16 <sgrubb>	sure]
Jul 07 20:02:41 <sgrubb>	The gui I'm talking about is gnome
Jul 07 20:02:55 <gregdek_home>	xfce :)
Jul 07 20:02:59 <sgrubb>	I only needed server implementation
Jul 07 20:03:16 <sgrubb>	that what I wonder
Jul 07 20:03:24 <sgrubb>	gnome is huge
Jul 07 20:03:32 <darkoilic>	I know
Jul 07 20:03:39 <gregdek_home>	How does gnome manage with the gnome livecd?
Jul 07 20:03:58 <sgrubb>	For Dirk, it works fine
Jul 07 20:04:56 <sgrubb>	well, I need to get going...
Jul 07 20:05:02 <gregdek_home>	I think we're done.
Jul 07 20:05:09 <darkoilic>	OK, yes
Jul 07 20:05:15 <sgrubb>	I'm around on #audit on freenode if something comes up
Jul 07 20:05:21 <gregdek_home>	Thanks, darko.  Holler if you need help.  :)
Jul 07 20:05:30 <darkoilic>	thanks a lot
Jul 07 20:05:35 <sgrubb>	see ya