Fedora Core Ofiicial LiveCD and DVD media

[J. Hartline]

I'm willing to take the time out here to build anything the Fedora 
Project needs with kadischi, within
my bounds of course. If you need LiveCD and LiveDVD images, provide a 
package list or some sort of information
in what should be on it at least. A seemingly generic LiveCD to me I 
would think would be a Workstation type install, but I do believe that 
stretches the bounds of 650/700MB medias.

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

I think the Ambassadors are mostly concerned here. That is why im
forwarding this mail to the Ambassadors list.

If any ambassador has a Live CD created by Kadischi, please do spread
the word about "Kadischi". Ive noticed that in the slide there isn't
Kadischi.


On 1/11/06, J. Hartline <jasperhartline(a)adelphia.net&gt; wrote:
>  I'm willing to take the time out here to build anything the
> Fedora
>  Project needs with kadischi, within
>  my bounds of course. If you need LiveCD and LiveDVD images, provide a
>  package list or some sort of information
>  in what should be on it at least. A seemingly generic LiveCD to me I
>  would think would be a Workstation type install, but I do believe that
>  stretches the bounds of 650/700MB medias.
>
>  --
>  Fedora-livecd-list mailing list
>  Fedora-livecd-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list
>  

--
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com

[Jeremy Katz]

On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 11:17 -0600, J. Hartline wrote:
>  I'm willing to take the time out here to build anything the
> Fedora 
>  Project needs with kadischi, within
>  my bounds of course. If you need LiveCD and LiveDVD images, provide a 
>  package list or some sort of information
>  in what should be on it at least. A seemingly generic LiveCD to me I 
>  would think would be a Workstation type install, but I do believe that 
>  stretches the bounds of 650/700MB medias. 
Given the fact that the live CD uses a compressed filesystem, you
actually get more than it sounds like.  So it probably isn't impossible
to fit the majority of a desktop-y install.

Jeremy

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi Jeremy,

> Given the fact that the live CD uses a compressed filesystem, you
> actually get more than it sounds like.  So it probably isn't impossible
> to fit the majority of a desktop-y install.
>
> Jeremy
>   
>  
Can you confirm that we can use squashfs for the LiveCD now. I believe 
Anaconda uses it and how much would do you think it would take to enable 
the Kadischi tool to better integrate with Anaconda, provide a package 
as part of Fedora Extras and add in capability to do hard disk 
installations on demand.

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[J. Hartline]

Jeremy Katz wrote:

> >and how much would do you think it would take to enable 
> >the Kadischi tool to better integrate with Anaconda, provide a package 
> >as part of Fedora Extras and add in capability to do hard disk 
> >installations on demand.
> >    
> >
>
> I don't understand what you're asking here...
>
> Jeremy
>
>   
>  
I just wanted to say one thing, if running a built LiveCD, HDD installations
would have to use a network repository for packages. There wouldn't be 
room but on a DVD for a whole FC tree
which would work and only work for a DVD, consider 3.0GB for the tree, 
1.7GB left for the live system.

For any CD-to-HDD installs, you would need a network repository. Just my 
opinion.
If this is not what you meant disregard this mail. ;-)

J. Hartline

[Jeremy Katz]

On Tue, 2006-01-17 at 05:31 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  >Given the fact that the live CD uses a compressed filesystem,
> you
>  >actually get more than it sounds like.  So it probably isn't impossible
>  >to fit the majority of a desktop-y install.
>  >  
>  >
>  Can you confirm that we can use squashfs for the LiveCD now. I believe 
>  Anaconda uses it  
Yes, we're using squashfs for anaconda's second stage since we hit
unfixable problems in cramfs, so it should be reasonable to use squashfs
for the live CD.

>  and how much would do you think it would take to enable 
>  the Kadischi tool to better integrate with Anaconda, provide a package 
>  as part of Fedora Extras and add in capability to do hard disk 
>  installations on demand. 
I don't understand what you're asking here...

Jeremy

[J. Hartline]

Jeremy Katz wrote:

>  The problem is that for a live CD, you need to make changes to some
> of
>
> the stuff that's installed and you definitely want to, eg, nuke the
> rpmdb (because that's just wasted space).  
>
> I really don't see this as a convincingly interesting use case.
>
> Jeremy
>
>   
>  
You could remove it but, you lose the functionality of querying the 
rpmdb for anything.


J. Hartline

[Rahul Sundaram]

Jeremy Katz wrote:

> On Tue, 2006-01-17 at 05:31 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>   
>
> >>Given the fact that the live CD uses a compressed filesystem, you
> >>actually get more than it sounds like.  So it probably isn't impossible
> >>to fit the majority of a desktop-y install.
> >> 
> >>
> >>      
> >>
> >Can you confirm that we can use squashfs for the LiveCD now. I believe 
> >Anaconda uses it 
> >    
> >
>
> Yes, we're using squashfs for anaconda's second stage since we hit
> unfixable problems in cramfs, so it should be reasonable to use squashfs
> for the live CD.
>   
>  
Cool.

>   
>
> >and how much would do you think it would take to enable 
> >the Kadischi tool to better integrate with Anaconda, provide a package 
> >as part of Fedora Extras and add in capability to do hard disk 
> >installations on demand.
> >    
> >
>
> I don't understand what you're asking here...
>
> Jeremy
>  
Live CD's like Kanotix or Memphis allow direct installation to the hard 
disk from the Live CD. That would another way to do an Fedora 
Installation.Anyone can mix and match packages from Fedora Core ane 
Extras repositories and create a Live cd and distribute it as a formal 
installation of Fedora .  A specific use case would be for someone to 
create a Fedora SELinux MCS policy live cd for a security presentation 
and then a do installation to the hard disk if necessary.

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[J. Hartline]

Jeremy Katz wrote:

> And being able to get from something that's a live CD to a form
> that
> makes sense on an on-disk filesystem is difficult and error-prone.  It
> also means that you have to spend a lot of time maintaining yet another
> code base to set all this stuff up.  I can write up a detailed list of
> why it's bad, but you might as well trust me on this one ;-)
>
> Jeremy
>
>   
>  
With a bit of work, the kadischi package can be installed to the LiveCD 
system, and partition and install just as if Anaconda
had been run from a system disc. That is just my opinion.

[J. Hartline]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:

> One day, DVD readers will populate the world the way that CD readers
> do 
> now.
>
> I continue to believe that the cutting-edge work should be done in the DVD 
> universe.  The amount of work to put an image onto a CD ISO that is both 
> useful *and* installable is just prohibitive.
>
> --g
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org
> Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>   
>  
I'd have to concur, and suggest that a live system only reside on any CD 
images.
The installable/live DVD is much more practical.

[J. Hartline]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:

> One day, DVD readers will populate the world the way that CD readers
> do 
> now.
>
> I continue to believe that the cutting-edge work should be done in the DVD 
> universe.  The amount of work to put an image onto a CD ISO that is both 
> useful *and* installable is just prohibitive.
>
> --g
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org
> Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>   
>  
& would still be plausible, if using a network repository, not everyone 
has a DVDROM readers.

[Jeremy Katz]

On Tue, 2006-01-17 at 22:54 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Live CD's like Kanotix or Memphis allow direct installation to
> the hard 
>  disk from the Live CD. That would another way to do an Fedora 
>  Installation.Anyone can mix and match packages from Fedora Core ane 
>  Extras repositories and create a Live cd and distribute it as a formal 
>  installation of Fedora .  A specific use case would be for someone to 
>  create a Fedora SELinux MCS policy live cd for a security presentation 
>  and then a do installation to the hard disk if necessary. 
The problem is that for a live CD, you need to make changes to some of
the stuff that's installed and you definitely want to, eg, nuke the
rpmdb (because that's just wasted space).  

I really don't see this as a convincingly interesting use case.

Jeremy

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

> The problem is that for a live CD, you need to make changes to some
> of
> the stuff that's installed and you definitely want to, eg, nuke the
> rpmdb (because that's just wasted space).  
>
> I really don't see this as a convincingly interesting use case.
>
> Jeremy
>  
This is very good for promoting new users to test drive Fedora and 
immediately follow up with a installation if it's deemed good. It's 
significantly easier to combine a live cd and a installation disk into 
one for a typical desktop installation with only default packages. No 
package selection whatsoever.  It would a nice plus in promoting Fedora 
in various LUG's or conferences. I will write up a detailed set of use 
cases if required but you might as well as trust me on this one ;-).

-- 
Rahul 

Fedora Bug Triaging - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugZappers

[Jeremy Katz]

On Tue, 2006-01-17 at 11:39 -0500, J. Hartline wrote:
>  I just wanted to say one thing, if running a built LiveCD, HDD
> installations
>  would have to use a network repository for packages. There wouldn't be 
>  room but on a DVD for a whole FC tree
>  which would work and only work for a DVD, consider 3.0GB for the tree, 
>  1.7GB left for the live system. 
Actually, I think the combo installation DVD + a live system is possible
and somewhat interesting.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Katz]

On Tue, 2006-01-17 at 23:10 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  >The problem is that for a live CD, you need to make changes to
> some of
>  >the stuff that's installed and you definitely want to, eg, nuke the
>  >rpmdb (because that's just wasted space).  
>  >
>  >I really don't see this as a convincingly interesting use case.
>  >
>  This is very good for promoting new users to test drive Fedora and 
>  immediately follow up with a installation if it's deemed good. It's 
>  significantly easier to combine a live cd and a installation disk into 
>  one for a typical desktop installation with only default packages. No 
>  package selection whatsoever.  It would a nice plus in promoting Fedora 
>  in various LUG's or conferences. I will write up a detailed set of use 
>  cases if required but you might as well as trust me on this one ;-). 
Realistically, the difficult part of installation is partitioning.  The
package selection can be made to the point where it's really not the
hard part.

And being able to get from something that's a live CD to a form that
makes sense on an on-disk filesystem is difficult and error-prone.  It
also means that you have to spend a lot of time maintaining yet another
code base to set all this stuff up.  I can write up a detailed list of
why it's bad, but you might as well trust me on this one ;-)

Jeremy

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

One day, DVD readers will populate the world the way that CD readers do 
now.

I continue to believe that the cutting-edge work should be done in the DVD 
universe.  The amount of work to put an image onto a CD ISO that is both 
useful *and* installable is just prohibitive.

--g

---------------------------------------------------------------
Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org
Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors
---------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote:

>  On Tue, 2006-01-17 at 11:39 -0500, J. Hartline wrote:
>  > I just wanted to say one thing, if running a built LiveCD, HDD installations
>  > would have to use a network repository for packages. There wouldn't be 
>  > room but on a DVD for a whole FC tree
>  > which would work and only work for a DVD, consider 3.0GB for the tree, 
>  > 1.7GB left for the live system.
>  
>  Actually, I think the combo installation DVD + a live system is possible
>  and somewhat interesting.
>  
>  Jeremy
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-livecd-list mailing list
>  Fedora-livecd-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list
>

[J. Hartline]

Chris Negus wrote:

> That's what I was thinking. Considering the compressed file
> system, I
> would think that you could get a lot of stuff in 1.7GB. This way you
> have a fairly complete live CD and a full FC5 install from the same
> medium. 
>
> Is there much more to it than just combining the contents of the install
> DVD and live CD and changing some isolinux files?
>
> -- Chris Negus
>
>   
>  
Complete is aroung 7GB :-P
besides that the fastest solution I can come up with in theory is 
Kadischi be installed to the medium
and utilize Anaconda as it would if on a rw HDD, writing all files 
needed by Anaconda in the ramfs.
As far as partitioning or not, is another story. I suppose Jeremy could 
tell you why or why Anaconda wouldn't
run from a standard CD media, and be able to install to selected HDD as 
prescribed by existing Anaconda code base.

The trouble I think I'm seeing is that Anaconda or Kadischi needs to 
distinguish between these, and skip or do
steps needed in that situation. From the looks of it.. --rootpath *does 
do* partitioning.
Good for installing from an existing live system, bad for making the 
live system in the beginning.

Also, emphasis will need to be put on how this tool should look in the 
long run..
Should kadischi in and of itself accomodate for users building custom 
live media, or just generic?
Sort of like it is now?

So we have a sort of double sided mirror, Kadischi, the custom 
LiveCD(DVD) tool.. or Fedora Core LiveCD(DVD) with kadischi and HDD 
installation methods, or both?
My vote is for both in the long run. I believe this is part of the 
robustness that it needs.

J. Hartline

[Chris Negus]

On Tue, 2006-01-17 at 13:03 -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
>  On Tue, 2006-01-17 at 11:39 -0500, J. Hartline wrote:
>  > I just wanted to say one thing, if running a built LiveCD, HDD installations
>  > would have to use a network repository for packages. There wouldn't be 
>  > room but on a DVD for a whole FC tree
>  > which would work and only work for a DVD, consider 3.0GB for the tree, 
>  > 1.7GB left for the live system.
>  
>  Actually, I think the combo installation DVD + a live system is possible
>  and somewhat interesting. 
That's what I was thinking. Considering the compressed file system, I
would think that you could get a lot of stuff in 1.7GB. This way you
have a fairly complete live CD and a full FC5 install from the same
medium. 

Is there much more to it than just combining the contents of the install
DVD and live CD and changing some isolinux files?

-- Chris Negus

[Thilo Pfennig]

2006/1/17, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt;:

>  I continue to believe that the cutting-edge work should be done in
> the DVD
>  universe.  The amount of work to put an image onto a CD ISO that is both
>  useful *and* installable is just prohibitive.
>  
That's what I think, too. But I think with Kadischi it is not such a
problem with an "official" Live-CD because we then will have a tool
that makes it easy to do many versions. That's why I love the idea
behind Kadischi. But I also think Fedora could make it into the news
ift it was the jorst MAJOR distribution that would come with a n
official LIve-DVD. maybe next time. But maybe another distribution
will be quicker, then.


Thilo

--
http://www.pfennigsolutions.de