Hi. A few seem to be interested in getting Kadischi-like stuff fused with Anaconda.
What we are looking from my point of view is this: Just enabling a checkbox for building a LiveCD, which would require an existing Ext2/3 partition to write to. In this LiveCD payload must include Anaconda which can also from the CD install to the HDD.
This makes little sense in my opinion, since rootpath doesn't do HDD partitioning e.g. to even allow partitioning of a drive, to get a LiveCD written. Can someone describe some ideas they may have for doing this? Is there some clarity we can establish here?
J. Hartline
--- "J. Hartline" jasperhartline@adelphia.net wrote:
Hi. A few seem to be interested in getting Kadischi-like stuff fused with Anaconda.
This sounds like me and one of my recent posts :) From what you wrote, I don't think you understood what I meant, but then, thats why you asked for clarity. So here is an attempt to outline what I meant, which actually covers a few different proposals which don't need to all be taken together.
*** proposal 1 *** *** integrating the current functionality of kadischi directly into anaconda
a) new commandline option --output-livecd=/path/to/destination.iso b) optionally, --livecd-config=/path/to/livecdkickstart.config
(b) is optional because the tokens/config/info contained there could also be put directly into the normal kickstart or additional anaconda gui installation steps
One way to implement this, would be to have anaconda create it's own temporary rootpath, and temporary kadischi build directories that the user needn't ever know exist, other than anaconda complaining about lack of disk space.
Only the absolute minimum of (kadischi like) post install scripts would be run by anaconda. Anything else could be user specified/provided by the livecd kickstart options.
the hard drive partitioning phase of anaconda would be skipped in this scenario, just as it currently is in kadischis --rootpath invocation
*** proposal 2 *** *** usage of kadischi, or anaconda+kadischi(proposal1), during a normal anaconda install.
The output of this, would be perhaps /root/anaconda-livecd.iso in a newly installed system. One which perhaps would ideally be identical to what would be produced by invoking kadischi with the /root/anaconda-ks.cfg which is currently left by anaconda during a normal install.
The user interface to this, for the first beta/development version of this, could depend on booting the fedora install cd/dvd with the flag livecdoption (i.e. isolinux boot: "linux livecdoption", as opposed to say "linux mediacheck")
If the user enabled this functionality in that way, they would be provided with an additional anaconda gui step/screen, which had a checkbox for "go ahead and create livecd image", as well as a selection for the output filename, where default was /root/anaconda-livecd.iso (or whatever).
Additionally, the user would then see the same additional livecd configuration steps listed in proposal 1, or would specify them in kickstart.
Implementation-wise, anaconda would go through and do the normal install, and then, just before rebooting, would use tmp space on the newly installed system to assemble the livecd iso.
This functionality would involve hdd partitioning, as it is a traditional fedora install onto harddisk (merely with livecd.iso bonus)
*** proposal 3 *** *** allow proposal 2 to work, with the normal system installation as an option
This was probably where I started to create confusion.
prop2 requires that anaconda use quite a bit of additional disk space on the installation system for the assembly, and output of the livecd image. It is also using the actual installed system as the image base to produce that livecd image.
One possibility, is that if sufficient free space exists on the system (say, on a vfat C:\ filesystem), then the whole process for creating the /root/anaconda-livecd.iso could be carried in temporary space on C:, and the output left in C:\anaconda-livecd.iso.
In this scenario, fedora is not really installed onto the target system. And as par the description, no hdd partitioning need ever be done. The only thing with the hdd that might need to be done is asking the users permission to use space on their C:\ partition (or their debian /usr partition, or temporarily using unpartitioned space, but leaving it that way, ...)
*** proposal 4 *** *** allow prop2 and/or prop3 to work, and to even burn a copy of the new iso before ever rebooting
If the user has a cd/dvd burner available that is unused by the installer, then the output iso could be burned immediately after it is created.
Additionally and optionally, steps could be taken to free up the burner if it was used to boot the install cd/dvd. I.e. cache the iso (or needed parts of it) to ram or disk, so it can be remounted from there, and freeing the drive.
*** proposal 5 *** *** add a --stateless option to anaconda, to produce output(installations) which make no assumptions about system hardware, and instead depend on runtime autoconfiguration of hardware.
Currently I've noticed by default that kadischi output enables firstboot. I'm guessing that this is what chitlesh's cd uses for hardware configuration. I.e. let the user boot the livecd, and then babysit the hardware configuration every time. As opposed to knoppix and other livecds, which attempt to autoconfigure hardware on every boot, and have stuff 'just work'.
One way to think of this proposal, is to view it as creating fedora installations that are "physically portable". I.e. the two big examples are a target media of a livecd, or a target media of a removable drive (usb thumbdrive, ipod, etc...). Then you take this physically portable media, and boot any system with it, and it autoconfigures hardware at runtime.
Basically the goal of this is to put your workstation on your ipod(or livecd+ipod, or livecd+thumbdrive), and take it around with you, turning any system in front of you into a "thick client".
On implementation detail, is that hardware configurations could be cached. I.e. no need to probe everything if you can identify the system (say with an lspci, or looking at the eth mac addr, or both), and have already done the HW config in the past, and saved that info (naturally wouldn't work on livecd only media). This is very much like the microsoft hardware profiles, if of course, microsoft included all the drivers for all the hardware and automatically installed and configured them every boot, and never needed to be rebooted to get drivers to work. (haha)
Another implementation detail, is that this may require tweaking individual packages, and not only anaconda. I currently have a bug outstanding with anaconda --rootpath causing my system to reconfigure it's network and timezone. It may be that some individual rpm's postinstall script is tweaking the system during install. I would suggest that all rpms obey a convention that if they see a file /stateless, that they install under the above assumptions. Actually this is confusing and should be 2 things. If they see /rootpath, they should assume that they are not in a native install, and perhaps are not even running on a system of the same release. (i.e. this might be an installation of a fc7 system running on a fc5, or even debian system, therefore they shouldn't try to do anything to the hardware). Then, seperate from the rpm being aware if it is a rootpath install, the rpm should be aware if it is a stateless install, and if so, should set itself up so that if any hardware configuration needs to be done, it should be done during every boot.
Note: this is a quite different (but not entirely) usage of the term 'stateless', from the official stateless project of fedora. It's extending the concept from the user and system data, into the hardware configuration data realm. Of course, note I haven't followed that project closely, so I could be wrong about that.
*** proposal 6 *** *** give livecd systems ability to install(or perhaps just cache) themselves to harddrive
I haven't looked at mandriva one, but they say they do this.
What I have done in the past, is to have linuxrc (early early boot), dump the iso from the cdrom drive onto temp space on the harddrive (say C:\dontmindme\foo.iso), and then remount from there. This frees up the cd drive for the user, and drastically speeds boot.
If you additionally dump some loadlin stuff in there (or even grub), then the livecd is now "installed/cached" on the harddrive, and the user can boot it again without the actual cdrom.
If you are careful, you could even "install/cache" it to a newly created ext3 fs on unpartitioned space, and have what appears to be (and in fact actually is) a normal installed fedora system. This is what I would guess mandriva one is doing.
*** proposal 7 *** *** use unionfs
This is completely seperate from all the above, and has many wonderous benefits in countless ways.
-jdog
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A few musings:
I've been considering how to create a LiveCD with an installer. I see two approaches:
(1) reconstruct rpms from the LiveCD filesystem, and do the usual one-at-a-time install. This is likely to be very slow, because of seeking.
(2) Group rpms into transaction groups by examining installation prerequisites and preinstall-scriptlet bounds, and then just apply pre-install scriptlets, copy files from the live filesystem and apply the post-install scriptlets. [ PyRPM might be a good starting point for doing this.]
On one FC5 x86_64 install, there are 72 pre-install scriptlets in 1511 packages. Most of these are of the useradd/groupadd variety. Many others are applicable when doing upgrades.
In order to do this, one would want the source filesystem that is being copied to represent the pristine file trees from the RPMS. That would argue in favor of using something like unionfs to layer LiveCD specific file customizations over a pristine tree.
On another topic, removing the CD/DVD:
One could use (experimental?) dm-mirror to copy the CD contents in the background. One could use dm over loop, or there's an experimental dm-loop module that functions like loop, but requires dmsetup instead of losetup. Using the dm-mirror module, one could set up a mirror between a loop from the CD and a loop from some other filesystem; when the (squashfs) filesystem is done copying, the mirror can be broken, the CD loop removed, and the CD ejected.
-Bill
--- "Bill Rugolsky Jr." brugolsky@telemetry-investments.com wrote:
A few musings:
I've been considering how to create a LiveCD with an installer. I see two approaches:
(1) reconstruct rpms from the LiveCD filesystem, and do the usual one-at-a-time install. This is likely to be very slow, because of seeking.
(2) Group rpms into transaction groups by examining installation prerequisites and preinstall-scriptlet bounds, and then just apply pre-install scriptlets, copy files from the live filesystem and apply the post-install scriptlets. [ PyRPM might be a good starting point for doing this.]
On one FC5 x86_64 install, there are 72 pre-install scriptlets in 1511 packages. Most of these are of the useradd/groupadd variety. Many others are applicable when doing upgrades.
In order to do this, one would want the source filesystem that is being copied to represent the pristine file trees from the RPMS. That would argue in favor of using something like unionfs to layer LiveCD specific file customizations over a pristine tree.
Another brute force alternative is to just duplicate information, and store the rpms on the livecd. As we move to dvd and hd-dvd, this may not be so bad.
Expounding on your unionfs musing, one could have many layers in the union. At the bottom, you could have a pristine @minimal (lets pretend like that still exists) install, then livecd customizations, then an @desktop layer, etc. Just a musing though, as I vaguely recall there are signifigant performance penalties as you get more and more layers in the union.
On another topic, removing the CD/DVD:
One could use (experimental?) dm-mirror to copy the CD contents in the background. One could use dm over loop, or there's an experimental dm-loop module that functions like loop, but requires dmsetup instead of losetup. Using the dm-mirror module, one could set up a mirror between a loop from the CD and a loop from some other filesystem; when the (squashfs) filesystem is done copying, the mirror can be broken, the CD loop removed, and the CD ejected.
I do like this idea, though trying to do serious io multitasking with a cd gets pretty ugly with seek thrashing. I.e. try doing a dd dump of an iso while the cd is mounted and you are trying to use it (let alone run a system from it). Back when I did my early-boot caching, I had my mandrake-8 livecd image down to 135M, so waiting for it to copy wasn't so bad. But I do like the idea. I suppose if you could effectively renice the mirror so that it truly didn't slow down the foreground running system, it would work very nicely.
-jdog
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Jane Dogalt wrote:
*** proposal 1 *** *** integrating the current functionality of kadischi directly into anaconda
a) new commandline option --output-livecd=/path/to/destination.iso
It has been suggested to just use rootpath. What my personal focus is just: 1) Building Live media (CD or DVD) 2) Installing from Live media (CD or DVD)
This would require us to determine without intervention of the user if we are running from an installed system to build a LiveCD or running from a LiveCD to install a system. Rootpath can be used in both of these instances.. if and only if doing some conditionalizing enable or disable partitioning and bootloader installation.
The cosmetics of this are probably the touchy part. I can say myself, that doing some hackery I could determine if I were being run from an installed system and build a LiveCD, going through steps as normal, and also if I am being run from a LiveCD, and assuming I need to be installing to a system.
I am not so sure however "just doing" these things is going to be a targeted way of accomplishing this. I mentioned a check box, e.g not something you can pass to Anaconda to build the Live media.. as we wouldn't want this on a standard installation, say from Disc #1. Fedora Project already has plans to build and possibly release an Official LiveCD. This assures us the user is getting what they want. This requires a subset of menus however and other sections to be added to Anaconda besides just making the Squash image, the false root and rolling up an ISO.
On the other hand, detect if we are running from LiveCD media, and the LiveCD option shouldn't appear. Use rootpath, and conditionally do partitioning and bootloader setups.
In either case, to do anything that would confirm the operation we are doing would require some extra modules and options etc, to be within Anaconda. Otherwise no cosmetic changes need to be made and rootpath mode is used exclusively for CD builds, and from-CD installs, without intervention and with little options.
I think these are the two major points in using Anaconda solely for both of these operations. J. Hartline
J. Hartline wrote:
Jane Dogalt wrote:
*** proposal 1 *** *** integrating the current functionality of kadischi directly into anaconda
I think these are the two major points in using Anaconda solely for both of these operations.
Take a look at this patch.. this is what I see as a possibility rather than trying to (Now) pretend to Anaconda as if we don't need rootpath in either case.
This will give you a better idea of what I think is plausible, but do not apply the patch. From here I think something can be written.
J. Hartline
--- "J. Hartline" jasperhartline@adelphia.net wrote:
Jane Dogalt wrote:
*** proposal 1 *** *** integrating the current functionality of kadischi directly into anaconda
a) new commandline option --output-livecd=/path/to/destination.iso
It has been suggested to just use rootpath.
I don't understand this. Currently kadischi is "just using rootpath", and then processing the results into a livecd iso.
I'm merely proposing folding kadischi's logic into anaconda.
What my personal focus is just:
- Building Live media (CD or DVD)
- Installing from Live media (CD or DVD)
This would require us to determine without intervention of the user if we are running from an installed system to build a LiveCD or running from a LiveCD to install a system.
I see your patch, and I see that it's looking at the host system, but I don't really understand why.
my proposal #1 (which I'm assuming is what your comments apply to), has nothing to do with running from a livecd to install a system. It is soley about running anaconda on some system (fc5 install, fc7 install, debian, customized knoppix, anything), and generating a livecd .iso output from the input of a fc5.iso, user-input, and optionally a kickstart and/or user payload. (just like kadischi does now)
Rootpath can be used in both of these instances.. if and only if doing some conditionalizing enable or disable partitioning and bootloader installation.
I'm not suggesting (even in the other props) using rootpath to install from livecd media. Currently rootpath is the conditional which disables partitioning.
Really, I'm not personally interested in my props 1-4, though I may try to implement them at some point. I mainly brought them up as a response to what the UI should be for kadischi. It seems to me that kadischi is already using anaconda for the majority of it's UI, and it seems only natural to me to merely extend anaconda a bit to cover the livecd specific options. I.e. anaconda is already this huge GUI infrastructure that seems very well suited to the task at hand. And having both pieces of the UI (traditional system installer, and new livecd configuration) be part of one seamless app is even more of a win.
Myself, I'm more intrested, at first at least, in my props 5-7, as I intend to use fully kickstarted GUIless installs for most of my own pursuits. Though a long long time down the road, when I want to gooify my stuff, anaconda seems like the obvious place to look to.
If you're still confused by what I'm aiming for, well, hopefully I can show you what I mean with an iso in the not too distant future.
-jdog
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Jane Dogalt wrote:
I see your patch, and I see that it's looking at the host system, but I don't really understand why.
Well, it was an example.
my proposal #1 (which I'm assuming is what your comments apply to), has nothing to do with running from a livecd to install a system. It is soley about running anaconda on some system (fc5 install, fc7 install, debian, customized knoppix, anything), and generating a livecd .iso output from the input of a fc5.iso, user-input, and optionally a kickstart and/or user payload. (just like kadischi does now)
The focus is to be able to kick out a LiveCD, and from a LiveCD do HDD installs. That is generally how Kadischi and Anaconda are related. I also don't think Debian or Knoppix package Anaconda, which would make running Anaconda from these systems a non-issue.
I seriously doubt running from a Debian system if they did package Anaconda is even a factor.
J. Hartline
--- "J. Hartline" jasperhartline@adelphia.net wrote:
I seriously doubt running from a Debian system if they did package Anaconda is even a factor.
Yeah, that was kind of a silly example. I was just trying to emphasize what IMO should be a clear distinction between the system hosting the livecd generator, and the system being created by it. Ideally I'd like to see the livecd generator run as a user (not-root), since if you think about it, generating the bits in the iso file shouldn't require root privs. But I admit it will be some time before that comes to bear.
-jdog
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Jane Dogalt wrote:
Ideally I'd like to see the livecd generator run as a user (not-root), since if you think about it, generating the bits in the iso file shouldn't require root privs. But I admit it will be some time before that comes to bear.
I think it would be a bit before that is possible. There is too much within Anaconda (It's the installer, keep this in mind) that only root should be doing. A few examples of this are reading files in /proc/ mounting devices, making device nodes, making links in non world-writeable directories.. etc.
I'm sure it could be done really-quick-like hacking it all to pieces, but this will never make it into Anaconda as a single piece.
So.. anyhow I have kadischi.py now as a module within it contains definitions for fromStages1_2(), livecdFromSystem() and systemFromLivecd() which depend on the sysconfig file readonly-root and the file /.livecd to make these distinctions. In this can go most of the other functions that kadischi uses currently. To keep things "familiar" we also set "kadischi" as an installclass with it's respective gui and text modules called from gui.py and text.py.
The cosmetics of it I think are another issue. We shouldn't be seeing "Would you like a live CD" screens during normal installations, which we don't using kadischi.fromStages1_2().
Any suggestions?
J. Hartline
J. Hartline wrote:
The cosmetics of it I think are another issue. We shouldn't be seeing "Would you like a live CD" screens during normal installations, which we don't using kadischi.fromStages1_2().
Here are a few source files I have now, and some patches. This is bar far not a final draft, but if we can generate some heat with it now, it will save me or anyone time in who decides to contribute to making it happen.
I especially do not like iutil.py patch, albeit I am doing this trying to disrupt as little of Anaconda's code as possible. The two functions in kadischi.py fromStages1_2() and livecdFromSystem(),systemFromLivecd() could probably be better. Unfortunately I'm not certain that you have anything definite to look for except what I have there, to determine if we are in stage 2, in which we don't want to appear.
I also do not know Anaconda inside and out, therefore I'm sure I am replicating some functions it can do internally, like validifying the installation source exists.
I did change flc_log from Kadischi to rhpl.log though. kadischi_text.py and kadischi_gui.py still have yet to be forged. I really haven't put much thought in kadischi.installSystemFromLiveCD() since iutil uses /dev/ to create nodes that would already exist. Likewise we need to have a partitioned disk and it be mounted proper under say /mnt/sysimage which is why we don't skip the steps in rootpath for disk partitioning. Have a look.
Maybe someone can work off this same idea? Make it better no?
J. Hartline
On Sat, 2006-04-01 at 00:40 -0600, J. Hartline wrote:
I seriously doubt running from a Debian system if they did package Anaconda is even a factor.
Progeny ported Anaconda to run on Debian systems. Everything is possible.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
I seriously doubt running from a Debian system if they did package Anaconda is even a factor.
Progeny ported Anaconda to run on Debian systems. Everything is possible.
mm Ok. I still don't believe it is within the "namespace" if you will to cater to other operating systems. If for instance Debian packagers package new snapshots of Anaconda.. and Anaconda happens to have some Kadischi stuff built in if it doesn't work for Debian systems, I seriously doubt this is a priority.
On the other hand, yes.. anything is possible.
J. Hartline
Jane Dogalt wrote:
--- "J. Hartline" jasperhartline@adelphia.net wrote:
Hi. A few seem to be interested in getting Kadischi-like stuff fused with Anaconda.
This sounds like me and one of my recent posts :) From what you wrote, I don't think you understood what I meant, but then, thats why you asked for clarity. So here is an attempt to outline what I meant, which actually covers a few different proposals which don't need to all be taken together.
I think one of the proposals was something along the lines of providing "hd2iso" and "iso2hd" utilities. That would be a cool way to create bootable DVDs, bootable/restorable system backups, etc.
Just my 2 c.
--- John
--- Skunk Worx skunkworx@verizon.net wrote:
I think one of the proposals was something along the lines of providing "hd2iso" and "iso2hd" utilities. That would be a cool way to create bootable DVDs, bootable/restorable system backups, etc.
Actually that wasn't really one of my 7 props, or it was buried deep and not quite in that form. But I'll take the credit if you insist ;). Backups at least, I was not considering at all. But now that I look at your utility names, and think about writable hd-dvd capacities, I definately want those type of lightweight utilities (eventually).
-jdog
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