OK, folks, where to now?

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

Thanks to the efforts of Darko Ilic and those who supported him / went 
before him, we now have a spiffy tool that creates Fedora-based Live CDs.

Now what?

Well, I think it's time to start using Kadischi to create some Live CDs,
and thinking about whether we can bless these Live CDs with the Fedora
name, that's what.

Any packages in Core+Extras for FC4 would probably be fair game, I would 
think.

Good idea or bad idea?  Let's hear it, folks.  I'm looking for opinions.  
I'm also looking for Live CDs to download.  :)

--g

_____________________  ____________________________________________
  Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
 Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
             Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
                     ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan

[Rahul Sundaram]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:

> Thanks to the efforts of Darko Ilic and those who supported him / went
>
> before him, we now have a spiffy tool that creates Fedora-based Live CDs.
>
> Now what?
>
> Well, I think it's time to start using Kadischi to create some Live CDs,
> and thinking about whether we can bless these Live CDs with the Fedora
> name, that's what.
>
> Any packages in Core+Extras for FC4 would probably be fair game, I would 
> think.
>
> Good idea or bad idea?  Let's hear it, folks.  I'm looking for opinions.  
> I'm also looking for Live CDs to download.  :)
>  
Here are some possibilities

* Different DE's - GNOME, KDE, XFCE, fluxbox
* Edutainment
* Games
* Security - SELinux strict, MCS, MLS
* Niche - Pro audio, RT etc

regards
Rahul

[Glen Eustace]

On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 16:34 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  Thanks to the efforts of Darko Ilic and those who supported him /
> went 
>  before him, we now have a spiffy tool that creates Fedora-based Live CDs.
>  
>  Now what? 
I would suggest that what has been produced is great but that it has a
way to go before I would call it ready for the masses.

>  Well, I think it's time to start using Kadischi to create some
> Live CDs,
>  and thinking about whether we can bless these Live CDs with the Fedora
>  name, that's what. 
If the tool is easy to use, then it is probably better to let people
simply build what they want.

>  Any packages in Core+Extras for FC4 would probably be fair game, I
> would 
>  think. 
This is an interesting one. As it stands, the build works from a single
repo. To add in Extras means changes either in the way either anaconda
and/or kadishi work.

But it is a good idea. At this time, I have had to manually merge
fedora, fedora-updates and some of my own rpms to produce a single repo
that the CD can be built from.

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Glen Eustace wrote:

>  On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 16:34 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  > Thanks to the efforts of Darko Ilic and those who supported him / went 
>  > before him, we now have a spiffy tool that creates Fedora-based Live CDs.
>  > 
>  > Now what?
>  
>  I would suggest that what has been produced is great but that it has a
>  way to go before I would call it ready for the masses. 
Ah.  Critique.  Excellent.  :)

But let's be specific.  Which component needs work, Kadischi or the Live 
CD that Kadischi produces, or both?  And are there bug reports in 
particular?
 
>  > Well, I think it's time to start using Kadischi to create
> some Live CDs,
>  > and thinking about whether we can bless these Live CDs with the Fedora
>  > name, that's what.
>  
>  If the tool is easy to use, then it is probably better to let people
>  simply build what they want. 
Oh, absolutely.  But having some "best in show" candidates is a good idea 
too, don't you think?

>  > Any packages in Core+Extras for FC4 would probably be fair game,
> I would 
>  > think.
>  
>  This is an interesting one. As it stands, the build works from a single
>  repo. To add in Extras means changes either in the way either anaconda
>  and/or kadishi work.
>  
>  But it is a good idea. At this time, I have had to manually merge
>  fedora, fedora-updates and some of my own rpms to produce a single repo
>  that the CD can be built from. 
And how did you do that?  Did you put together a nifty HOWTO?  :)

--g

_____________________  ____________________________________________
  Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
 Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
             Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
                     ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan

[Glen Eustace]

>  But let's be specific.  Which component needs work, Kadischi or
> the Live 
>  CD that Kadischi produces, or both?  And are there bug reports in 
>  particular? 
I have made a number of suggestions on this list, as have others about
things that might be improved. They aren't necessarily bugs.

1. Splitting the process into phases like rpmbuild
2. Defining a customisation precedure/process.
3. Running prelink on the resulting CD before burn
4. I would add running depmod as well, I have added kernel modules.
5. Splitting the 'Base' rpm list into a 'Core' + others so that a
   minimal CD is easier to produce.
6. Maybe using squashfs instead of zisofs
7. Sorting files to better optimize the CD.

>  Oh, absolutely.  But having some "best in show" candidates
> is a good idea 
>  too, don't you think? 
Yes. My suggestions would include such things as;
Network Diagnostics/Toolbox
Quagga Router

>  > But it is a good idea. At this time, I have had to manually
> merge
>  > fedora, fedora-updates and some of my own rpms to produce a single repo
>  > that the CD can be built from.
>  
>  And how did you do that?  Did you put together a nifty HOWTO?  :) 
No, as I was hoping there was a better method than what I used. I
believe I have mentioned in an earlier email that managing the repo(s)
is something that possibly warrants more work. I haven't volunteered to
do it as I am sure that there a people who know more about such things
than I do.

Glen.

[Albert Strasheim]

Hello

I would like to propose a slightly different approach to implementing 
Kadischi.

Currently, Kadischi calls Anaconda from the command line. This is not 
very flexible. In fact, I would go so far as to say that is never going 
to be flexible enough (take a look at /usr/sbin/anaconda and you might 
agree that nobody wants to add any more code in there).

If Kadishi is built at the same level as /usr/sbin/anaconda, i.e. as a 
script that uses the Anaconda modules, I think it can be made much more 
flexible. The Xen folks are also looking for an installer, and if you 
replace the part where Kadischi makes an ISO and with something that 
makes an ext3 image, you have that.

Anaconda needs some work to make this easier to do. The main thing I 
can think about here is that the list of install steps are currently 
hardcoded. If an interface can be created to add install steps, Kadischi 
can do everything within the Anaconda framework.

Another potential problem with Kadischi is that it depends on the 
system Anaconda. This means that Kadischi on a Fedora Core 5 system can 
probably only make CDs (or USB images, or ext3 images) for Fedora Core 
5, especially if you take into account things like the yum backend 
changes that are currently ongoing.

USB images are especially interesting, since Kadischi offers a way 
(using some kickstart cleverness), to make installations that are only 
about 200 or 300 MB. This is very useful for embedded applications.

I think there are ways that the project can be organised so that it can 
be useful to a wider audience. Think CentOS CDs and RHEL 4 Xen images, 
etc. This would involve making a version of Kadischi available that 
includes a specific version of Anaconda. For example, if I download 
"kadischi-10.2", I get something that can install any bundle of RPMS 
that work with an Anaconda 10.2 installer (so that covers at least 
Fedora Core 3 and 4, CentOS 4 and RHEL 4).

I look forward to your comments.

Regards

Albert

P.S. I've attached some code I've been working on. This is basically 
/usr/sbin/anaconda with all the "physical hardware" installation stuff 
removed. I tested command line, text and graphical installation with 
Anaconda 10.2.1.5-2. There seems to be some issues with the graphical 
installation and pygtk2 2.4.2, so downgrade to 2.4.0 if you have any 
problems.

You might run the script as follows:

mkdir /tmp/sysimage
/opt/kadischi/usr/sbin/kadischi \
  --noselinux \
  --rootpath=/tmp/sysimage \
  -m nfs://foo/bar/fedora/4/i386/os \
  --logfile=/tmp/kadischi.log \
  --text \
  --kickstart /opt/kadischi/ks.cfg

You'll see that I've found a way to override some Anaconda modules. This 
will be useful if Kadischi requires changes to Anaconda that cannot 
be integrated into Anaconda immediately.

The included ks.cfg creates a 218 MB FC 4 install.

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:

>  On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Glen Eustace wrote:
>  
>  > On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 16:34 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  > > Thanks to the efforts of Darko Ilic and those who supported him / went 
>  > > before him, we now have a spiffy tool that creates Fedora-based Live CDs.
>  > > 
>  > > Now what?
>  > 
>  > I would suggest that what has been produced is great but that it has a
>  > way to go before I would call it ready for the masses.
>  
>  Ah.  Critique.  Excellent.  :)
>  
>  But let's be specific.  Which component needs work, Kadischi or the Live 
>  CD that Kadischi produces, or both?  And are there bug reports in 
>  particular?
>   
>  > > Well, I think it's time to start using Kadischi to create some Live CDs,
>  > > and thinking about whether we can bless these Live CDs with the Fedora
>  > > name, that's what.
>  > 
>  > If the tool is easy to use, then it is probably better to let people
>  > simply build what they want.
>  
>  Oh, absolutely.  But having some "best in show" candidates is a good idea 
>  too, don't you think?
>  
>  > > Any packages in Core+Extras for FC4 would probably be fair game, I would 
>  > > think.
>  > 
>  > This is an interesting one. As it stands, the build works from a single
>  > repo. To add in Extras means changes either in the way either anaconda
>  > and/or kadishi work.
>  > 
>  > But it is a good idea. At this time, I have had to manually merge
>  > fedora, fedora-updates and some of my own rpms to produce a single repo
>  > that the CD can be built from.
>  
>  And how did you do that?  Did you put together a nifty HOWTO?  :)
>  
>  --g
>  
>  _____________________  ____________________________________________
>    Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
>   Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
>               Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
>                       ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan
>  
>  --
>  Fedora-livecd-list mailing list
>  Fedora-livecd-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-livecd-list

[Steve Grubb]

On Thursday 08 September 2005 16:34, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  Well, I think it's time to start using Kadischi to create some
> Live CDs,
>  and thinking about whether we can bless these Live CDs with the Fedora
>  name, that's what.
>
>  Any packages in Core+Extras for FC4 would probably be fair game, I would
>  think.
>
>  Good idea or bad idea?  Let's hear it, folks.  I'm looking for opinions. 
Maybe this should be publicized on the fedora-devel mail list to get some more 
eyes looking at it.

I would envision that several livecd's be made oriented around certain themes: 
productivity/desktop, system recovery/forensics, server/console only, 
internet kiosk, firewall, scientific, games.  These would represent package 
selections that others could use as a starting point and further customize.

-Steve

[Axel Thimm]

On Thu, Sep 08, 2005 at 04:34:13PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  Thanks to the efforts of Darko Ilic and those who supported him /
> went 
>  before him, we now have a spiffy tool that creates Fedora-based Live CDs.
>  
>  Now what?
>  
>  Well, I think it's time to start using Kadischi to create some Live CDs,
>  and thinking about whether we can bless these Live CDs with the Fedora
>  name, that's what. 
Some (few) good show cases would be great. Something like

o a kiosk CD
o a CA CD
o an extended rescue/utilities CD

These are some cases, which IMHO make most sense for a live CD in
production/work. The other class of live CDs types is
try-before-buying^Winstalling aka demos, while there certainly is
overlap.

I guess a kiosk CD might also become very popular, the other two
address experts.

>  Any packages in Core+Extras for FC4 would probably be fair game, I
> would 
>  think.
>  
>  Good idea or bad idea?  Let's hear it, folks.  I'm looking for opinions.  
>  I'm also looking for Live CDs to download.  :)
>  
>  
>  _____________________  ____________________________________________
>    Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have
>   Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent.  the
>               Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the 
>                       ] [ dumb.  --mcluhan
>   
-- 
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net