2009-08-12 Attendees: John Poelstra, Jon Stanley, Paul Frields, Eric Christensen, Ian Weller, Susan Lauber
o Held on Gobby and FedoraTalk w/ bridge to global toll-free call-in facility
== Meeting Summary == o We were unable to reach any level of certainty or confidence that we can go live with Zikula for Fedora 12 due to the outstanding questions below. o No one at the meeting was opposed to the idea of postponing Zikula go-live until after GA of Fedora 12. o Meeting ended with next goal to complete all packaging by the end of Fedora 12. o Unclear whether we are going to continue to meet at regular Wednesday time slot.
== Outstanding Issues/Questions ==
1) What modules do we absolutely need to have to go live? --why do we need menutree?
2) Who can answer #1? --we need someone that has actually installed and admin'd a Zikula instance
3) We need at least one WYSIWYG editor that can be installed and used
4) Infrastructure freezes are coming up--when are they? - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Infrastructure_SOP#Change_Freeze - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Schedule
5) Zikula upstream folks are on holiday or hard to reach right now--how can we establish better contact?
6) Given all the uncertainty and unanswered questions can we really go-live for Fedora 12?
7) What about a FAD focused on getting Zikula live sometime after GA of Fedora 12?
8) Can Documentation team continue in stop-gap mode for Fedora 12 without adverse affects?
9) Do we have a formal requirements for each of the groups? If yes, where are they documented?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Schedule for now
Packaging Modules (only needed for go-live) Tue 2009-08-12 Tue 2009-11-03 (tracking in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula)
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 05:57:53PM -0700, John Poelstra wrote:
2009-08-12 Attendees: John Poelstra, Jon Stanley, Paul Frields, Eric Christensen, Ian Weller, Susan Lauber
o Held on Gobby and FedoraTalk w/ bridge to global toll-free call-in facility
== Meeting Summary == o We were unable to reach any level of certainty or confidence that we can go live with Zikula for Fedora 12 due to the outstanding questions below. o No one at the meeting was opposed to the idea of postponing Zikula go-live until after GA of Fedora 12. o Meeting ended with next goal to complete all packaging by the end of Fedora 12. o Unclear whether we are going to continue to meet at regular Wednesday time slot.
I would suggest that we can keep up regular contact on the logistics list but this meeting seems a bit premature until we get the underlying problems with licensing, order of work, etc. defined and/or fixed.
== Outstanding Issues/Questions ==
What modules do we absolutely need to have to go live? --why do we need menutree?
Who can answer #1? --we need someone that has actually installed and admin'd a Zikula
instance
We need at least one WYSIWYG editor that can be installed and used
Infrastructure freezes are coming up--when are they?
- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Infrastructure_SOP#Change_Freeze
- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Schedule
- Zikula upstream folks are on holiday or hard to reach right now--how
can we establish better contact?
- Given all the uncertainty and unanswered questions can we really
go-live for Fedora 12?
- What about a FAD focused on getting Zikula live sometime after GA of
Fedora 12?
- Can Documentation team continue in stop-gap mode for Fedora 12
without adverse affects?
- Do we have a formal requirements for each of the groups? If yes,
where are they documented?
I didn't get a chance to point this out in the meeting, but there are several contact points working on this. It's probably good that we'd have more time to equate requirements in the wish-list sense with actual functionality in the CMS. I don't doubt it can be done, we just need a bit more time to figure out, document, and understand how.
Schedule for now
Packaging Modules (only needed for go-live) Tue 2009-08-12 Tue 2009-11-03 (tracking in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula)
I think it's also incumbent upon the Zikula group (and I count myself in that group), including anyone who wants to make use of it, to help figure out a preliminary schedule for post-F12 work so we can hopefully stand up a working system during the time between F12 GA and F13 Alpha.
- Do we have a formal requirements for each of the groups? If yes,
where are they documented?
FWIW, the current specs for Fedora Insight (from Marketing) are always up at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight#Platform_specs.2Frequirements.
Note that these specs haven't been prioritized/triaged yet, so it's possible we might be able to work with a super-minimalist zikula that could do just these three things:
* post articles to a permanent human-readable URL (like http://whatever-domain-name.org/yyyy/mm/dd/title-of-article, or any other standard schema Infrastructure might like) * tag articles * spit out feeds of articles (preferably one feed per tag + one feed with everything)
(and a 4th one, "look pretty." But I'm assuming that it's skinnable no matter what.)
I'm not very familiar with what zikula can do and so I'm a bit hazy on following the discussion on why it's a no-(definite)-go for F12, but if some group actively using a minimalistic zikula setup during F12 would be useful as a stepping-stone to getting the full list of requirements for docs.fp.o (and other instances) going for F13, we're happy to serve as guinea pigs. Might this be an option, or are the blockers things that won't go away if we scale down to getting up a much much simpler instance?
--Mel
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 01:50:14AM -0400, Mel Chua wrote:
- Do we have a formal requirements for each of the groups? If yes,
where are they documented?
FWIW, the current specs for Fedora Insight (from Marketing) are always up at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight#Platform_specs.2Frequirements.
Note that these specs haven't been prioritized/triaged yet, so it's possible we might be able to work with a super-minimalist zikula that could do just these three things:
- post articles to a permanent human-readable URL (like
http://whatever-domain-name.org/yyyy/mm/dd/title-of-article, or any other standard schema Infrastructure might like)
- tag articles
- spit out feeds of articles (preferably one feed per tag + one feed
with everything)
(and a 4th one, "look pretty." But I'm assuming that it's skinnable no matter what.)
I'm not very familiar with what zikula can do and so I'm a bit hazy on following the discussion on why it's a no-(definite)-go for F12, but if some group actively using a minimalistic zikula setup during F12 would be useful as a stepping-stone to getting the full list of requirements for docs.fp.o (and other instances) going for F13, we're happy to serve as guinea pigs. Might this be an option, or are the blockers things that won't go away if we scale down to getting up a much much simpler instance?
Great questions Mel.
As for the first point, -- why it's no-go for F12: Two months into the start of the project, we're still minus several things we must have, including licensing fixes for packages, and a small core group of people with the technical skills needed to do the integration and workflow development. We think the latter part will get better after summer ends, but that leaves us in a pinch as far as timing against our release. The former we can probably accomplish before F12 with some influx of help that we expect over the next few weeks.
However, the *test* instance can continue to move forward and even to rock by F12, so that we could plan for a deployment during the "lull" (I use the term *very* loosely) after F12 GA, when there's not so much release-specific activity going on involving the people who are working on the Zikula team. Unfortunately, the instance can only get so simple -- we need a certain amount of functionality to lift off, and without that it gets difficult to fulfill anyone's needs. The modules all exist, mind you; in some cases it's just a matter of resolving some niggling license problems, and getting upstream agreement to the changes so that we're not carrying these patches forevermore.
I think you offer of guinea pigs is on-point and we will definitely take you up on it at the appropriate time. And of course, you and anyone else is welcome to pitch in to any extent desired to help, as always!
There is a general page on the wiki at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zikula. There's a link on that page that will help get a sandbox set up on F11, if you know someone who's interested in looking at the core system.
- post articles to a permanent human-readable URL (like
http://whatever-domain-name.org/yyyy/mm/dd/title-of-article, or any other standard schema Infrastructure might like)
- tag articles
- spit out feeds of articles (preferably one feed per tag + one feed
with everything)
Zikula + the news module + crpTag can do this out of the box. That's about as minimalist as you'll get - and pretty simple to get up and running providing someone packages the latest version of the news module (I think crpTag may already have been done).
On 08/12/2009 05:57 PM, John Poelstra wrote:
- Infrastructure freezes are coming up--when are they?
Infrastructure freezes are two weeks before any planned release. When the release slips, the freeze is extended. We're in a change freeze right now for the alpha release. Note that change freeze doesn't affect publictest or staging. If performance testing is done so that we think that deploying it won't endanger the release, it can be deployed to the app servers during change freeze by requesting a change request. If we're thinking that we're not going to make F12, though, we probably aren't going to give mmcgrath sufficient time to load test the instance.
-Toshio
- What modules do we absolutely need to have to go live? --why do we need menutree?
You probably don't. It's a very-nice-to-have module - because it makes constructing a menu that much simpler. However, if you just want to replicate the current docs site in Zikula for release #1, then you don't need this module.
- Who can answer #1? --we need someone that has actually installed and admin'd a Zikula
instance
That's me. Unfortunately, your need for me has precisely coincided with my limited availability. I'll be around a little more next week, but I won't be truly available for a month.
- We need at least one WYSIWYG editor that can be installed and used
There are 4 that scribite supports. I hope at least one is GPLed
- Zikula upstream folks are on holiday or hard to reach right now--how
can we establish better contact?
This again is my fault, sorry. 'Camp Zikula' starts tomorrow - it's a get together of Zikula developers. I've arranged for a presentation on Fedora to be made that includes a call for help. You might get some volunteers from this, the most important Zikula devs tend to attend the camp. We will see...
I feel bad for disappearing on you at the vital time, but I am still working behind the scenes to sort things out. I'm also continually available via email if you contact me direct.
Simon
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 02:29:54AM +0100, Simon Birtwistle wrote:
I feel bad for disappearing on you at the vital time, but I am still working behind the scenes to sort things out. I'm also continually available via email if you contact me direct.
Simon, you and the Zikula team have been a great upstream and supporters of our effort. Timing can't be helped; and Fedora's release schedule is surprisingly quick when you are inside of it. This current frustration/disappointment you are seing is just the reality of cat herding in that fast-moving world; we really wanted to use Zikula for the Docs site to deliver our content for the Fedora 12 release.
If that's any incentive for folks, BTW, feel free to use it as a carrot. Reading between the lines of the last week's conversations, a magic rabbit could be pulled from the hat so we could be serving F12 docs from Zikula. But it requires more dedicated technical talent than we have available right now, all under the freeze schedule of the infrastructure systems. When it gets up, it's going to be a pretty visible site. I don't know off-hand the traffic the site has, but it has to be fairly high.
thx - Karsten
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:01:34PM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote:
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 02:29:54AM +0100, Simon Birtwistle wrote:
I feel bad for disappearing on you at the vital time, but I am still working behind the scenes to sort things out. I'm also continually available via email if you contact me direct.
Simon, you and the Zikula team have been a great upstream and supporters of our effort. Timing can't be helped; and Fedora's release schedule is surprisingly quick when you are inside of it. This current frustration/disappointment you are seing is just the reality of cat herding in that fast-moving world; we really wanted to use Zikula for the Docs site to deliver our content for the Fedora 12 release.
If that's any incentive for folks, BTW, feel free to use it as a carrot. Reading between the lines of the last week's conversations, a magic rabbit could be pulled from the hat so we could be serving F12 docs from Zikula. But it requires more dedicated technical talent than we have available right now, all under the freeze schedule of the infrastructure systems. When it gets up, it's going to be a pretty visible site. I don't know off-hand the traffic the site has, but it has to be fairly high.
I want to second what Karsten said as strongly as possible. We're trying to stay on track as much as possible, and make rational and impassionate decisions about how best to proceed. There's no flagging in our desire to see a Zikula CMS up and running, and we're very grateful for the time Simon and others have put into this effort and look forward to more of this very exciting collaboration!
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