John Poelstra said the following on 07/28/2009 02:47 PM Pacific Time:
Zikula Meeting Agenda
== Last Meeting ==
This meeting was cancelled because we did not have enough of the key
people. I've attached a short log of the discussion that did take place.
I need the key people interested in making Zikula happen tell me what if
anything we want to do before the next meeting. We still need to meet
to discuss the schedule. I can't build it out without more input from
If you can help with the schedule, please indicate your availability
14:59 < poelcat> #startmeeting Zikula
14:59 < zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 29 14:59:47 2009 UTC. The chair is poelcat.
Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
14:59 < zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00 * poelcat knows that ke4qqq and Sparks can't come so I'm not sure how much
there is going to be to discuss
15:00 < poelcat> is anyone else here to discuss zikula?
15:01 < stickster> I see that no one has arrived
15:01 * stickster sorry, was helping a friend with a bluez question
15:01 < stickster> poelcat: Is it just you and me here today?
15:01 < stickster> ianweller?
15:01 < ianweller> pong
15:01 * poelcat thinks it might be best to just call the meeting
15:02 < poelcat> but open to other suggestions
15:02 < stickster> Yeah, without ke4qqq and Sparks here we'll be suffering.
15:02 < ianweller> try pinging people? ;)
15:02 < stickster> ianweller: Those two folks already mentioned they can't make
it in email to the list
15:02 < ianweller> yeah.
15:02 < poelcat> ianweller: that's like knocking on someone's door hoping
that will make them come home ;-)
15:02 < ianweller> almost-shortest-meetinglog-ever
15:02 * onekopaka will be here for the fun of it.
15:02 * stickster notes that there's one thing we don't want to wait a week for,
which is moving on with packages by stripping out problematic licensing stuff
15:03 < ianweller> poelcat: i do that all the time!
15:03 < stickster> I think that's best hashed out on the list than by just a
couple people here.
15:03 * poelcat will wait 2 more minutes then call EOM
15:03 < stickster> poelcat: I think that's a good call.
15:03 * stickster mails the list with his concern
15:04 < onekopaka> this is almost like that one EPEL meeting then..
15:05 < stickster> onekopaka: It happens from time to time. :-) Volunteers
can't always be around on a schedule
15:06 * mchua pokes head in
15:06 < poelcat> #endmeeting
15:06 < zodbot> Meeting ended Wed Jul 29 15:06:20 2009 UTC. Information about
MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
15:06 < zodbot> Minutes:
15:06 < zodbot> Minutes (text):
15:06 < onekopaka> stickster: yeah.
15:06 < zodbot> Log:
15:06 < mchua> ...shoot.
15:06 < poelcat> mchua: hi
15:06 < mchua> poelcat: hey. sorry I missed the meeting
15:06 < poelcat> mchua: w/o the two key people we don't have a lot to discuss
15:06 < ricky> Darn, I missed it :-(
15:06 < mchua> 4am wakeup for 6am planeflight = Mel goes a little loopy on
15:07 < poelcat> if people have things we should discuss we can still meet
15:07 < poelcat> looking at the agenda... i'm not sure we have the right people
to do that
15:07 * mchua hunts for link to agenda
15:07 * poelcat just didn't want to "have a meeting for the sake of having a
15:08 < stickster> I agree
15:08 * stickster is proposing to the list that we assume from here on out we are going
to take necessary actions to resolve licensing ourselves wherever needed
15:09 < mchua> only question I had was whether there was a timeframe for when we
might expect test and final instances up that Marketing can use for Fedora Insight
15:09 < ricky> If I did make the meeting, I only had two things that I think would
be nice to have - a) Get the test instance into a shape that's slightly closer to what
the final product might look like and b) Get the l10n team onto the test instance so that
you guys can get started on translation workflow stuff ASAP
15:09 < mchua> (or if that's even the right question to be asking at this point
in the zikula saga - I'm joining the logistics list now and need to read some
archives, it would seem)
15:10 < mchua> then again, I'm also supposed to be asking stickster and
ianweller about these things since they're the Marketing delegates, so all is good :)
15:11 * mchua is simultaneously trying to be a good delegator and catch up on an
unexpectedly-acquired need to learn about the history of everything Marketing-related as
fast as possible...
15:11 < stickster> I think the team assumed getting a running instance blocked on
15:12 < stickster> But I see that Toshio has mentioned that may not be a hard
blocker, and that we simply need to make progress on fixing things like licensing problems
as we go
15:12 < poelcat> ricky: if you have any suggestions for dates to add to the schedule
around that, please reply to my email
15:13 * stickster spells it out on the list, maybe for his own sanity
15:13 * ricky isn't very aware of the deadlines involved here, but that'd
definitely be nice to have somewhere before "get it into staging" in
15:13 * ricky looks for the right mail
15:13 < stickster> There is a publictest instance up now
15:13 < abadger1999> stickster: Yeah -- on the publictest, it would be good to
update to run with all the rpms we now have.
15:13 < abadger1999> That's the first step in getting it deployed to staging.
15:14 < abadger1999> poelcat: What information do you need from infrastructure WRT
15:14 < ricky> poelcat: Sorry, what's the difference between "Alpha Public
Availability" and "Test Instance 'Go Live'" ?
15:15 * quaid is lurking a bit now
15:15 < stickster> I think the Alpha public availability there means F12 Alpha,
15:15 < mchua> stickster: is the publictest instance stable enough for
"marketing should start thinking about putting FI content up with News to try out how
that workflow goes," or should we wait for the next iteration (is that staging?)
15:15 < onekopaka> how do you Zikula people get a staging instance and blog people
15:15 < ricky> stickster: Ah, that clears it up, I was thinking about zikula, not
15:15 * mchua hunts for logistics list
15:16 < mchua> ahh, https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/logistics
15:16 < ricky> onekopaka: Did you guys need one? All you had to do was ask for a
value1.stg to be built
15:16 < stickster> mchua: O! I'm sorry, I would have sent you that if I'd
known you needed it
15:16 < abadger1999> s/staging/publictest/ ?
15:16 < poelcat> abadger1999: whatever you think are realistic dates
15:17 < stickster> mchua: Probably a good list to be on -- most cross-team
initiatives will be coordinated on that list.
15:17 < ricky> One thing I wasn't quite clear about - will docs.fp.o be running
entirely on this for F12, or will that be slightly later?
15:17 < onekopaka> ricky: I'm pretty sure we asked for one and it didn't get
done. I am going to blame smooge.
15:17 < mchua> stickster: well technically I shouldn't *need* it, 'cause you
and ianweller are hanging out both here and around Marketing as interfaces... but yeah, i
should at least lurk
15:17 * mchua subscribeth
15:18 < stickster> mchua: lurking is good :-)
15:18 * mchua gets Yet More Email
15:18 < stickster> yay server-side filtering!
15:18 < mchua> stickster: I... may have to ask you about your setup for that someday
15:19 * mchua copes with the "I was offline for 12 hours and got *how* many
15:19 < ianweller> mchua: i get too much email by going to sleep. i found the answer
was "don't sleep" but that's problematic
15:20 * onekopaka wonders how many lists ianweller is on.
15:21 * stickster looks for publictest we're on now
15:21 < ricky> stickster: http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/cms/
15:21 < onekopaka> I knew it! 15!
15:21 < mchua> ianweller: I'm starting to get to the point where too much email
comes in even when I'm awake.
15:21 < ricky> Sorry if this got lost in the scroll back - will this be running
docs.fp.o completely for F12, or will that happen a bit later?
15:22 < stickster> ricky: Remains to be seen, but with every week that goes by I
think we're looking at slipping that to F13
15:22 < stickster> Does anyone have the administration information for this test
15:22 < ricky> Ah :-/
15:23 * ricky looks forward to the old CVS website stuff going away :-)
15:23 < ricky> As does all of the docs team, I'm sure :-)
15:23 < stickster> Me too
15:23 < quaid> stickster: umm ...
15:23 < onekopaka> yay CVS dying!
15:23 < stickster> abadger1999: ricky: Do either of you have the admin info for that
15:23 < quaid> docs.fp.o is not essential Infrastructure in the same way
15:23 < ricky> stickster: Nope, sorry :-/ ke4qqq might
15:24 < quaid> I think we need to just be a bit more risky here
15:24 < quaid> IMHO
15:24 < stickster> quaid: Care to spell that out?
15:24 < quaid> well, I have to look at the schedule more
15:24 < ricky> If it is going to be targetted for F12, one thing that I think is
vital is for people from l10n to be involved in some of these discussions, and ideally for
them and docs to test the translation workflow on the test instance.
15:24 < quaid> but why slip six months if we can't make it exactly within an F12
15:25 < quaid> ricky: sorry, what does L10n use? I thought they only needed Tx
15:25 < stickster> quaid: I didn't mean that F13 GA was a new target date,
simply that we might have to do the changeover during the F13 cycle
15:26 < quaid> oh, crap, mmcgrath_away just said we'd put in on the regular app
15:26 < ricky> quaid: Maybe I'm confused about exactly how much of what's
currently there will change.
15:26 < onekopaka> quaid: Tx only covers the actual website that's in the
fedora-web repo, AFAIK
15:26 < stickster> It's kind of hypothetical now, anyway -- remains to be seen
how close we are to actually being able to put up content and share package media on the
15:26 < quaid> meaning we are beholden to infra freezes ...
15:26 < ricky> Will translators will be working 100% on po files for docbook pages
like they do now?
15:26 < ricky> quaid: The freeze lifts 1 day after release though
15:27 < quaid> ricky: it's possible that we can have l10n handle pushing their
own translations via Zikula, but not required to start.
15:27 < quaid> the trans is still PO via Tx
15:27 < stickster> quaid: +1.
15:27 * mchua wonders if Fedora Insight might make a nice lightweight test case for
zikula, if the docs.fp.o stuff is a much bigger effort that will take a lot of time to
15:27 < ricky> Or will there be content not the current PO files on docs.fp.o that
will need to be translated?
15:27 < quaid> ricky: ok, yes, we may want to translate our zikula instance itself,
but that should probably be PO files via Tx, too, just as we do with fedora-web etc.
15:27 < mchua> (this is *not* a "work on marketing stuff instead of docs
stuff!" note - but a "if marketing working here on marketing stuff will help
docs stuff go faster, yay!" query.)
15:28 < stickster> mchua: You're right -- the docs.fp.o migration is not a
necessity for Zikula to be up and running, but it's part of where we want to end up
15:28 < ricky> If it's still PO + Tx, will the po files still be created by
xml2po from docbook files?
15:28 < stickster> Zikula is going to serve a bunch of needs. The first step is
getting the platform actually up and functioning, with a few people who are versed in
15:28 < quaid> ricky: for docs, using publican + SCM of each upstream doc; not sure
how zikula handles l10n
15:29 < ricky> Ah, OK. That makes me much better about l10n.
15:29 < stickster> Zikula doesn't yet have a full l10n capability but it's
something that upstream is working on
15:29 < stickster> In fact, we may end up being able to test-bed that work
15:29 < ricky> So just out of curiousity: how will docs be uploaded to the site once
it's running zikula?
15:29 < stickster> ricky: There are plugins for sharing media files of arbitrary
15:29 < mchua> Ok. Since the Fedora Insight materials are going to be pretty
time-sensitive, that means (1) we want to get Fedora Insight running asap, but also (2) we
can reboot the infrastructure underneath it *quite* frequently and easily, if needed
15:29 < ricky> Will they still be uploaded as static files maybe in a special
directory, or will it be in the zikula db?
15:29 < ricky> Ah, cool
15:30 < stickster> ricky: The former, I believe, and the db handles the metadata and
page information surrounding the media
15:30 < ricky> So this is a lot less change in the docs workflow than I thought,
which is good from the l10n standpoint :-)
15:30 < mchua> stickster: yeah, that's what i was thinking, whether FI makes a
good zikula testbed so we make our mistakes there where it's more of a sandbox, and
less mistakes on docs once docs is up and running
15:30 < quaid> ricky: +1 that was a goal, I would think
15:31 < ricky> +1 to what mchua is saying - new sites are far easier to test on
15:31 < ricky> Cool :-)
15:31 < ricky> So in terms of the docs project, is zikula mostly replacing the beats
pages on the wiki as the step before docs are moved into publican?
15:31 < mchua> er, should we log this conversation?
15:32 < stickster> mchua: I have it logged locally on proxy and can publish it to
the list in lieu of meetbot, which we stopped earlier when it didn't seem clear that
anyone was showing up :-D
15:32 < stickster> ricky: to answer your question...
15:32 < quaid> ricky: perhaps over time, but for now, wiki beats are primary
15:32 < stickster> ricky: Eventually I think so
15:33 < ricky> Ah, OK - so then you'll be able to take advantage of the workflow
features and everything
15:33 < stickster> ricky: But a more immediate step is just to create a place where
people will be able to click-to-install any of the hundreds of RPMs created by publican
15:33 < stickster> per-language, per-guide, per-Fedora-release
15:34 < ricky> One other side note that just came up - should fedora infrastructure
be looking at deploying any of the docs sites via RPM instead of having a separate upload
15:34 < ianweller> i loev how we're having a meeting anyway. :)
15:34 < ianweller> love*
15:34 * mchua echoes ianweller
15:34 < ianweller> i'll get a log from zodbot/ricky at the end of our
"meeting" and email it.
15:35 < stickster> ricky: I'm not sure that creating an interim system that we
know we're going to replace anyway is worth it, but that depends on how much busy work
docs.fp.o is creating already
15:36 < ricky> Ah, that's true
15:38 * stickster checks one more time to make sure people understand that *we need more
help with PHP stuff*.
15:39 < stickster> There is some elbow-grease work to be done here, and I'm not
convinced that the few of us working on those problems can solve them all without help.
15:39 * stickster is certainly even lower than novice level on PHP
15:40 < stickster> Most of the remaining problems are related to stripping out
pieces that are not licensed compatibly, and replacing them with something that fulfills
the functional role but with a better license.
which is CC-2.5 licensed incompatibly with GPLv2+
15:41 < stickster> (LightboxXL is one of those scripts that, when you click a
picture, dims the rest of the web page and pops up a bigger or otherwise alternate
15:42 < ricky> By the way, a high five to the zikula guys for being so involved
here. I also took a look at the zikula code, and it looks a lot cleaner than most of the
PHP stuff I've seen :-)
15:44 < stickster> No doubt
15:44 < stickster> One thing I should add in that regard -- most modules are created
by the Zikula community at large, and in general they are very high quality. There are
simply some places where a full license audit has found problems. No different than when
Spot did Fedora's package licensing audit some time ago.
15:46 < ricky> Ah. Hopefully zikula upstream is benefitting a good amount from the
license scrutiny as well. It's not fun stuff, but it's great for all of that to
15:49 * stickster thinks the ur-meeting has petered out and sets about getting the log
15:50 < mchua> what needs to happen to have a FI-ready testbed up?
15:51 * mchua decides to ask on list instead
15:52 < ricky> OK, so are we done with this little meeting then :-)
15:52 < ricky> ianweller: Want logs to send?
15:52 < ianweller> ricky: that'd be lovely