Fwd: FW: Tell Your Friends!

[Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan]

------------------------------
*From:* Siau, Swee Furn
*Sent:* 28 Julai 2009 1:08 PM
*Subject:* Tell Your Friends!

*Interview for Fresh Graduates (IT or IT-related studies)*

*1 & 2 August 2009*

*Organized by TSMY HR*

[Slaya Chronicles - Geeko Acolyte]

Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
promotion of FOSS? Thanks for screwing up the future of fresh grads by
chucking them in call centres. I am sure that will help them much.

I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
Raslan wrote:
> From: Siau, Swee Furn
> Sent: 28 Julai 2009 1:08 PM
> Subject: Tell Your Friends!
>
> Interview for Fresh Graduates (IT or IT-related studies)
>
> 1 & 2 August 2009
>
> Organized by TSMY HR
>
> --
> Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan]

You are so wrong, Eric.

This fresh grad is being hired as system engineers, trained for 6 month to
learn the real thing that enterprise Multinational company use.

Sorry if your mindset is still stuck in the small company region, but this
advertisement did not say that we are just supporting proprietary software.

Our environment is a healthy mix of Open Source software and proprietary
software, with Open Source is gaining rapid acceptance by our customer.

To state the fact, we have 5000+ Red Hat servers and desktop operational,
and more than 200 Suse servers being used daily. This kind of environment
need real people that understand real Open Source. And also people that are
not skeptic, or keep their mind under the coconut shell.

Welcome to the real world, Eric.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Eric Yeoh  wrote:
> Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
> promotion of FOSS? Thanks for screwing up the future of fresh grads by
> chucking them in call centres. I am sure that will help them much.
>
> I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
> software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
> Raslan wrote:
> > From: Siau, Swee Furn
> > Sent: 28 Julai 2009 1:08 PM
> > Subject: Tell Your Friends!
> >
> > Interview for Fresh Graduates (IT or IT-related studies)
> >
> > 1 & 2 August 2009
> >
> > Organized by TSMY HR
> >
> > --
> > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
> >
> > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Adli Azaddin]

experienced can apply :D

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan <
[e-mail]> wrote:
> You are so wrong, Eric.
>
> This fresh grad is being hired as system engineers, trained for 6 month to
> learn the real thing that enterprise Multinational company use.
>
> Sorry if your mindset is still stuck in the small company region, but this
> advertisement did not say that we are just supporting proprietary software.
>
> Our environment is a healthy mix of Open Source software and proprietary
> software, with Open Source is gaining rapid acceptance by our customer.
>
> To state the fact, we have 5000+ Red Hat servers and desktop operational,
> and more than 200 Suse servers being used daily. This kind of environment
> need real people that understand real Open Source. And also people that are
> not skeptic, or keep their mind under the coconut shell.
>
> Welcome to the real world, Eric.
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Eric Yeoh wrote:
> > Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
> > promotion of FOSS? Thanks for screwing up the future of fresh grads by
> > chucking them in call centres. I am sure that will help them much.
> >
> > I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
> > software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
> > Raslan wrote:
> > > From: Siau, Swee Furn
> > > Sent: 28 Julai 2009 1:08 PM
> > > Subject: Tell Your Friends!
> > >
> > > Interview for Fresh Graduates (IT or IT-related studies)
> > >
> > > 1 & 2 August 2009
> > >
> > > Organized by TSMY HR
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
> > >
> > > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
> >
> > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
>
> --
> Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail]

ad or no ad ..

please refrain from using HTML emails pls .. it causes mess in the archive ...

Use Plaintext!

Please read the mailing list guideline here :

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines

* No HTML mails please,
     : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines#No_HTML_Mail...

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Adli Azaddin wrote:
> experienced can apply :D
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
>  wrote:
> > You are so wrong, Eric.
> >
> > This fresh grad is being hired as system engineers, trained for 6 month to
> > learn the real thing that enterprise Multinational company use.
> >
> > Sorry if your mindset is still stuck in the small company region, but this
> > advertisement did not say that we are just supporting proprietary software.
> >
> > Our environment is a healthy mix of Open Source software and proprietary
> > software, with Open Source is gaining rapid acceptance by our customer.
> >
> > To state the fact, we have 5000+ Red Hat servers and desktop operational,
> > and more than 200 Suse servers being used daily. This kind of environment
> > need real people that understand real Open Source. And also people that are
> > not skeptic, or keep their mind under the coconut shell.
> >
> > Welcome to the real world, Eric.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Eric Yeoh 
> > wrote:
> > > Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
> > > promotion of FOSS? Thanks for screwing up the future of fresh grads by
> > > chucking them in call centres. I am sure that will help them much.
> > >
> > > I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
> > > software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
> > > Raslan wrote:
> > > > From: Siau, Swee Furn
> > > > Sent: 28 Julai 2009 1:08 PM
> > > > Subject: Tell Your Friends!
> > > >
> > > > Interview for Fresh Graduates (IT or IT-related studies)
> > > >
> > > > 1 & 2 August 2009
> > > >
> > > > Organized by TSMY HR
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
> > > >
> > > > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
> > >
> > > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
> >
> > --
> > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
> >
> > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Slaya Chronicles - Geeko Acolyte]

So working in a foreign outsourced company is working in the real
world? Man, you just insulted the majority of the IT workforce in the
country. Malaysia is a country which is mostly SMB/SMEs; so those IT
guys are in Never-Never Land? What about those who are on their own?
They don't do real work but you do?

HP also train "system engineers"; care to ask the HP alumni what they
think of HP? If you were ever worked for HP you would know what I
mean. What about CSC Malaysia? It's an MNC also; CSC Global used to
support the US Seventh Fleet. Ask your mates who have worked there.
EDS? IBM? ACS? DHL?

I started my career with working for and with MNCs for some years and
trust me, it's nothing more than taichi central; everyone's hiding
behind procedures and KPIs and what not. Just follow the procedure,
don't pay attentions to what is not in your JD, even if the server was
on fire.

Note, that was not cynical, about a year back, just for the heck of it
got myself interviewed by two interesting Managers from T-Systems who
actually said that I only needed to focus on the task list and
procedure I was to be given. Even if I know how to solve a problem but
it's not within my JD or task list, I should keep quiet. So keep your
head down, do your work and to heck with other departments, is that
it?

So as long everything look good on paper and nothing seriously is
wrong, hey job well done.

I have been in this line for many years now and when I was a
freelancer I used to be contracted by these IT MNCs to go in to solve
problems their talents could not. So those are the "real" trained
engineers?

The benefits in MNCs are good, no arguments there.

We are cheap, that's why they are here, plain and simple. Not because
we are more talented.

Eric

On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
Raslan wrote:
> You are so wrong, Eric.
>
> This fresh grad is being hired as system engineers, trained for 6 month to
> learn the real thing that enterprise Multinational company use.
>
> Sorry if your mindset is still stuck in the small company region, but this
> advertisement did not say that we are just supporting proprietary software.
>
> Our environment is a healthy mix of Open Source software and proprietary
> software, with Open Source is gaining rapid acceptance by our customer.
>
> To state the fact, we have 5000+ Red Hat servers and desktop operational,
> and more than 200 Suse servers being used daily. This kind of environment
> need real people that understand real Open Source. And also people that are
> not skeptic, or keep their mind under the coconut shell.
>
> Welcome to the real world, Eric.
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Eric Yeoh  wrote:
> > Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
> > promotion of FOSS? Thanks for screwing up the future of fresh grads by
> > chucking them in call centres. I am sure that will help them much.
> >
> > I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
> > software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
> > Raslan wrote:
> > > From: Siau, Swee Furn
> > > Sent: 28 Julai 2009 1:08 PM
> > > Subject: Tell Your Friends!
> > >
> > > Interview for Fresh Graduates (IT or IT-related studies)
> > >
> > > 1 & 2 August 2009
> > >
> > > Organized by TSMY HR
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
> > >
> > > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
> >
> > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
>
> --
> Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Johann Amin]

This seems to be the same case with a majority of our local graduates 
that I've had the "pleasure" of handling. Study what the teacher tells 
you to study (spot exam questions), don't pay attention to what is 
needed in the market, even if you have to sit around jobless leaching of 
the government, waiting for that RM10,000. So long as your results look 
good on paper, hey job well done.

I'm still trying to figure out if it is the MNC's that are operating in 
this manner because of our local talent or our local talent having this 
mindset because the MNC's operate in this manner. Chicken & egg; Egg & 
chicken.

On 07/29/2009 02:43 AM, Eric Yeoh wrote:
> So working in a foreign outsourced company is working in the real
> world? Man, you just insulted the majority of the IT workforce in the
> country. Malaysia is a country which is mostly SMB/SMEs; so those IT
> guys are in Never-Never Land? What about those who are on their own?
> They don't do real work but you do?
>
> HP also train "system engineers"; care to ask the HP alumni what they
> think of HP? If you were ever worked for HP you would know what I
> mean. What about CSC Malaysia? It's an MNC also; CSC Global used to
> support the US Seventh Fleet. Ask your mates who have worked there.
> EDS? IBM? ACS? DHL?
>
> I started my career with working for and with MNCs for some years and
> trust me, it's nothing more than taichi central; everyone's hiding
> behind procedures and KPIs and what not. Just follow the procedure,
> don't pay attentions to what is not in your JD, even if the server was
> on fire.
>
> Note, that was not cynical, about a year back, just for the heck of it
> got myself interviewed by two interesting Managers from T-Systems who
> actually said that I only needed to focus on the task list and
> procedure I was to be given. Even if I know how to solve a problem but
> it's not within my JD or task list, I should keep quiet. So keep your
> head down, do your work and to heck with other departments, is that
> it?
>
> So as long everything look good on paper and nothing seriously is
> wrong, hey job well done.
>
> I have been in this line for many years now and when I was a
> freelancer I used to be contracted by these IT MNCs to go in to solve
> problems their talents could not. So those are the "real" trained
> engineers?
>
> The benefits in MNCs are good, no arguments there.
>
> We are cheap, that's why they are here, plain and simple. Not because
> we are more talented.
>
> Eric
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
> Raslan  wrote:
> > You are so wrong, Eric.
> >
> > This fresh grad is being hired as system engineers, trained for 6 month to
> > learn the real thing that enterprise Multinational company use.
> >
> > Sorry if your mindset is still stuck in the small company region, but this
> > advertisement did not say that we are just supporting proprietary software.
> >
> > Our environment is a healthy mix of Open Source software and proprietary
> > software, with Open Source is gaining rapid acceptance by our customer.
> >
> > To state the fact, we have 5000+ Red Hat servers and desktop operational,
> > and more than 200 Suse servers being used daily. This kind of environment
> > need real people that understand real Open Source. And also people that are
> > not skeptic, or keep their mind under the coconut shell.
> >
> > Welcome to the real world, Eric.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Eric Yeoh  wrote:
> > > Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
> > > promotion of FOSS? Thanks for screwing up the future of fresh grads by
> > > chucking them in call centres. I am sure that will help them much.
> > >
> > > I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
> > > software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
> > > Raslan  wrote:
> > > > From: Siau, Swee Furn
> > > > Sent: 28 Julai 2009 1:08 PM
> > > > Subject: Tell Your Friends!
> > > >
> > > > Interview for Fresh Graduates (IT or IT-related studies)
> > > >
> > > > 1&  2 August 2009
> > > >
> > > > Organized by TSMY HR
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan

[Slaya Chronicles - Geeko Acolyte]

The local education system stresses conformity and obdience more than
any thing else. For many years my idea of Mathematics and the general
education system boils down to this, follow what the teachers'
ways/solving methods, coz if you don't you will not pass the exam,
although your methods would have been sound.

This blind obedience bred nothing but timid introverted people. Those
stidents of history will know that is the best way to stay in power,
make your people essentially sheeps to be herded around. But I
digress.

It was not until I studied under my fine college professors that my
eyes were finally opened. They stressed research, encouraged voicing
your opinions, discussions and essentially I got an education on
research, self-reliance and forming my opinions. The studying part was
secondary, as you can easily get hard skills from books. The
edurcation part was priceless. The discussion sessions I had with my
professors were some of the best hours of my life.

Anyone here worked with local lecturers before? I have and I will have
to say, save for a few bright sparks, mostly are just sliders. The
read from the slides and only know the stuff within the slides.

Sad.
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Johann Amin wrote:
> This seems to be the same case with a majority of our local graduates that
> I've had the "pleasure" of handling. Study what the teacher tells you to
> study (spot exam questions), don't pay attention to what is needed in the
> market, even if you have to sit around jobless leaching of the government,
> waiting for that RM10,000. So long as your results look good on paper, hey
> job well done.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out if it is the MNC's that are operating in this
> manner because of our local talent or our local talent having this mindset
> because the MNC's operate in this manner. Chicken & egg; Egg & chicken.
>
> On 07/29/2009 02:43 AM, Eric Yeoh wrote:
> > So working in a foreign outsourced company is working in the real
> > world? Man, you just insulted the majority of the IT workforce in the
> > country. Malaysia is a country which is mostly SMB/SMEs; so those IT
> > guys are in Never-Never Land? What about those who are on their own?
> > They don't do real work but you do?
> >
> > HP also train "system engineers"; care to ask the HP alumni what they
> > think of HP? If you were ever worked for HP you would know what I
> > mean. What about CSC Malaysia? It's an MNC also; CSC Global used to
> > support the US Seventh Fleet. Ask your mates who have worked there.
> > EDS? IBM? ACS? DHL?
> >
> > I started my career with working for and with MNCs for some years and
> > trust me, it's nothing more than taichi central; everyone's hiding
> > behind procedures and KPIs and what not. Just follow the procedure,
> > don't pay attentions to what is not in your JD, even if the server was
> > on fire.
> >
> > Note, that was not cynical, about a year back, just for the heck of it
> > got myself interviewed by two interesting Managers from T-Systems who
> > actually said that I only needed to focus on the task list and
> > procedure I was to be given. Even if I know how to solve a problem but
> > it's not within my JD or task list, I should keep quiet. So keep your
> > head down, do your work and to heck with other departments, is that
> > it?
> >
> > So as long everything look good on paper and nothing seriously is
> > wrong, hey job well done.
> >
> > I have been in this line for many years now and when I was a
> > freelancer I used to be contracted by these IT MNCs to go in to solve
> > problems their talents could not. So those are the "real" trained
> > engineers?
> >
> > The benefits in MNCs are good, no arguments there.
> >
> > We are cheap, that's why they are here, plain and simple. Not because
> > we are more talented.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
> > Raslan  wrote:
> > > You are so wrong, Eric.
> > >
> > > This fresh grad is being hired as system engineers, trained for 6 month
> > > to
> > > learn the real thing that enterprise Multinational company use.
> > >
> > > Sorry if your mindset is still stuck in the small company region, but
> > > this
> > > advertisement did not say that we are just supporting proprietary
> > > software.
> > >
> > > Our environment is a healthy mix of Open Source software and proprietary
> > > software, with Open Source is gaining rapid acceptance by our customer.
> > >
> > > To state the fact, we have 5000+ Red Hat servers and desktop operational,
> > > and more than 200 Suse servers being used daily. This kind of environment
> > > need real people that understand real Open Source. And also people that
> > > are
> > > not skeptic, or keep their mind under the coconut shell.
> > >
> > > Welcome to the real world, Eric.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Eric Yeoh
> > >  wrote:
> > > > Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
> > > > promotion of FOSS? Thanks for screwing up the future of fresh grads by
> > > > chucking them in call centres. I am sure that will help them much.
> > > >
> > > > I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
> > > > software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat
> > > > Raslan  wrote:
> > > > > From: Siau, Swee Furn
> > > > > Sent: 28 Julai 2009 1:08 PM
> > > > > Subject: Tell Your Friends!
> > > > >
> > > > > Interview for Fresh Graduates (IT or IT-related studies)
> > > > >
> > > > > 1&  2 August 2009
> > > > >
> > > > > Organized by TSMY HR
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Harisfazillah Jamel]

Eric,

You pick a wrong person to fight with.

Numbers of us including Sharuzzaman been through for what you had
written. That include freelancing
for many years, joining SMB and many more things.

Sharuzzaman has the right to write what he is saying
because he being through that.

I had work with ICT banking sector for 13 years.
You tell me of any shit that I had been through.

By doing all the bullshit of paper works, audit,
ISO and many procudures do you think I like it?

Do you like to be audit by two teams of audit every
month?

Every servers and jobs that you do will be check
and any different in your reports will be questions
and report to higher level.

What I want to tell you is this. If we want our
young generation to know and fell what, how and
where to get all the exposure let them join
the big companies and MNC. Let them know
office politics, tendang terajang and know new things
that SMB could not give.

at the end of the day, they will gain knowledge
that our country need....

Rather than making noise and keep blaming others
lets fix the problems.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Eric Yeoh wrote:
> So working in a foreign outsourced company is working in the real
> world? Man, you just insulted the majority of the IT workforce in the
> country. Malaysia is a country which is mostly SMB/SMEs; so those IT
> guys are in Never-Never Land? What about those who are on their own?
> They don't do real work but you do?

[Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail]

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Harisfazillah
Jamel wrote:
[..]
> Let them know
> office politics, tendang terajang and know new things
> that SMB could not give.
>
> at the end of the day, they will gain knowledge
> that our country need....

I disagree.

office politics is good? how does an environment where people are
trying hard to keep everyone behind them is defined as good?.

Politics: "social relations involving intrigue to gain authority or
power;" - princeton dictionary

"oh this guy is trying to be better than me, make life miserable  for him!!"
"this new guy is doing all these tech stuff .. pfft..  show off!! ..
make life miserable for him!!!"
"this new guy looks like a threat to our position.. make life
miserable for him!!"

those are basically the office politics that i've heard and seen .. I
know i dont want to be in such environment .. as it kills motivation
.. and if i hang around there too long .. i'll be infected by the
stupidity too .. its sad to see many people, come into companies with
great ideals, great visions, but end up demotivated, deteriorated, at
the end of the day.

young people should go for something which least restrict their
movements, so that they does not kill their own mind ... go for
adventures, learn the hard way through failures (not through people
preventing your movements) .. and fight to survive .. gain experience
on doing something different, something risky, while still young, as
once you get old, you wont have chances to do such thing anymore ...
especially those who thinks they want to have family, once you got a
family, i assure you, you'll be shit afraid of taking such risks...
> Rather than making noise and keep blaming others
> lets fix the problems.

one of the fix i see currently,

stop going to old companies which can't no longer change themselves,
go to young companies, which you can shape , and try your best to
shape the young company culture, to value creativity and flexibilty

Red Hat can do it, Google can do it .. why not we? .. in Inigo, thats
our goal :D ..

[Adli Azaddin]

izhar, that is real life working environment... soon you'll know

On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Izhar Firdaus wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Harisfazillah
> Jamel wrote:
> [..]
> > Let them know
> > office politics, tendang terajang and know new things
> > that SMB could not give.
> >
> > at the end of the day, they will gain knowledge
> > that our country need....
>
> I disagree.
>
> office politics is good? how does an environment where people are
> trying hard to keep everyone behind them is defined as good?.
>
> Politics: "social relations involving intrigue to gain authority or
> power;" - princeton dictionary
>
> "oh this guy is trying to be better than me, make life miserable  for
> him!!"
> "this new guy is doing all these tech stuff .. pfft..  show off!! ..
> make life miserable for him!!!"
> "this new guy looks like a threat to our position.. make life
> miserable for him!!"
>
> those are basically the office politics that i've heard and seen .. I
> know i dont want to be in such environment .. as it kills motivation
> .. and if i hang around there too long .. i'll be infected by the
> stupidity too .. its sad to see many people, come into companies with
> great ideals, great visions, but end up demotivated, deteriorated, at
> the end of the day.
>
> young people should go for something which least restrict their
> movements, so that they does not kill their own mind ... go for
> adventures, learn the hard way through failures (not through people
> preventing your movements) .. and fight to survive .. gain experience
> on doing something different, something risky, while still young, as
> once you get old, you wont have chances to do such thing anymore ...
> especially those who thinks they want to have family, once you got a
> family, i assure you, you'll be shit afraid of taking such risks...
> > Rather than making noise and keep blaming others
> > lets fix the problems.
>
> one of the fix i see currently,
>
> stop going to old companies which can't no longer change themselves,
> go to young companies, which you can shape , and try your best to
> shape the young company culture, to value creativity and flexibilty
>
> Red Hat can do it, Google can do it .. why not we? .. in Inigo, thats
> our goal :D ..
>
> --
> Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
> Amano Hikaru  天野晃 「あまの ひかる」
> Fedora Malaysia Contributor & Ambassador
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MohdIzharFirdaus
> http://blog.kagesenshi.org
> 92C2 B295 B40B B3DC 6866  5011 5BD2 584A 8A5D 7331
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Adli Azaddin wrote:
> izhar, that is real life working environment... soon you'll know

a real life at this point of time ..

i'll take over the world and change it .... muahahahahahahah ...
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Izhar Firdaus wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Harisfazillah
> > Jamel wrote:
> > [..]
> > > Let them know
> > > office politics, tendang terajang and know new things
> > > that SMB could not give.
> > >
> > > at the end of the day, they will gain knowledge
> > > that our country need....
> >
> > I disagree.
> >
> > office politics is good? how does an environment where people are
> > trying hard to keep everyone behind them is defined as good?.
> >
> > Politics: "social relations involving intrigue to gain authority or
> > power;" - princeton dictionary
> >
> > "oh this guy is trying to be better than me, make life miserable  for
> > him!!"
> > "this new guy is doing all these tech stuff .. pfft..  show off!! ..
> > make life miserable for him!!!"
> > "this new guy looks like a threat to our position.. make life
> > miserable for him!!"
> >
> > those are basically the office politics that i've heard and seen .. I
> > know i dont want to be in such environment .. as it kills motivation
> > .. and if i hang around there too long .. i'll be infected by the
> > stupidity too .. its sad to see many people, come into companies with
> > great ideals, great visions, but end up demotivated, deteriorated, at
> > the end of the day.
> >
> > young people should go for something which least restrict their
> > movements, so that they does not kill their own mind ... go for
> > adventures, learn the hard way through failures (not through people
> > preventing your movements) .. and fight to survive .. gain experience
> > on doing something different, something risky, while still young, as
> > once you get old, you wont have chances to do such thing anymore ...
> > especially those who thinks they want to have family, once you got a
> > family, i assure you, you'll be shit afraid of taking such risks...
> > > Rather than making noise and keep blaming others
> > > lets fix the problems.
> >
> > one of the fix i see currently,
> >
> > stop going to old companies which can't no longer change themselves,
> > go to young companies, which you can shape , and try your best to
> > shape the young company culture, to value creativity and flexibilty
> >
> > Red Hat can do it, Google can do it .. why not we? .. in Inigo, thats
> > our goal :D ..
> >
> > --
> > Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
> > Amano Hikaru  天野晃 「あまの ひかる」
> > Fedora Malaysia Contributor & Ambassador
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MohdIzharFirdaus
> > http://blog.kagesenshi.org
> > 92C2 B295 B40B B3DC 6866  5011 5BD2 584A 8A5D 7331
> >
> > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Izhar Firdaus wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Adli Azaddin wrote:
> > izhar, that is real life working environment... soon you'll know

your statement is a good example of a young person entered an industry
with great ideals, great goals to improve things .. but end up
deteriorated and demotivated, and started accepting something wrong,
as right, because they have given up trying to make a change .. due to
everybody keep on trying to kill each other in order to keep
themselves in higher political positions than others ...

what stopping mankinf from being  further developed to a galactic
society is not because we does not have the capability to do so .. but
its due to each of us are preventing each other from moving forward ..
> a real life at this point of time ..
>
> i'll take over the world and change it .... muahahahahahahah ...

[Adli Azaddin]

hahaha btw.. happy system administrator day :D

http://www.sysadminday.com/

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Izhar Firdaus wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Izhar Firdaus
> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Adli Azaddin
>
> wrote:
> > > izhar, that is real life working environment... soon you'll know
>
> your statement is a good example of a young person entered an industry
> with great ideals, great goals to improve things .. but end up
> deteriorated and demotivated, and started accepting something wrong,
> as right, because they have given up trying to make a change .. due to
> everybody keep on trying to kill each other in order to keep
> themselves in higher political positions than others ...
>
> what stopping mankinf from being  further developed to a galactic
> society is not because we does not have the capability to do so .. but
> its due to each of us are preventing each other from moving forward ..
> > a real life at this point of time ..
> >
> > i'll take over the world and change it .... muahahahahahahah ...
>
> --
> Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
> Amano Hikaru  天野晃 「あまの ひかる」
> Fedora Malaysia Contributor & Ambassador
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MohdIzharFirdaus
> http://blog.kagesenshi.org
> 92C2 B295 B40B B3DC 6866  5011 5BD2 584A 8A5D 7331
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail]

2009/7/31 Adli Azaddin :
> hahaha btw.. happy system administrator day :D
>
> http://www.sysadminday.com/

haha .. yeah ... happy sysadmin day!!

celebrate it by reading BoFH :

http://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard_Indexes.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/odds/bofh/

[Slaya Chronicles - Geeko Acolyte]

Haris,

I am attacking the issue not the man. Yes, he has every right to voice
his opinions and so can I. But I strongly disagree with what he meant
by "the real world".

So after being through all the unfortunate events you have gone
through at the bank, you would still think it is a good idea to
demoralise youngsters so that they can learn "about working in the
real world"? And no; to answer your questions, I will not like the
audit and the reporting parts, but of course you are already aware of
my eventual answer. Who would?

Look, you know and I know the many silly things that happens within
MNCs. After all you have been through it. As you well said, I am
merely stating my point as much as your mate was.

And this hostility? I am unsure where it comes from. I make noise?

Hmmm...interesting.

Eric

On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Harisfazillah
Jamel wrote:
> Eric,
>
> You pick a wrong person to fight with.
>
> Numbers of us including Sharuzzaman been through for what you had
> written. That include freelancing
> for many years, joining SMB and many more things.
>
> Sharuzzaman has the right to write what he is saying
> because he being through that.
>
> I had work with ICT banking sector for 13 years.
> You tell me of any shit that I had been through.
>
> By doing all the bullshit of paper works, audit,
> ISO and many procudures do you think I like it?
>
> Do you like to be audit by two teams of audit every
> month?
>
> Every servers and jobs that you do will be check
> and any different in your reports will be questions
> and report to higher level.
>
> What I want to tell you is this. If we want our
> young generation to know and fell what, how and
> where to get all the exposure let them join
> the big companies and MNC. Let them know
> office politics, tendang terajang and know new things
> that SMB could not give.
>
> at the end of the day, they will gain knowledge
> that our country need....
>
> Rather than making noise and keep blaming others
> lets fix the problems.
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Eric Yeoh wrote:
> > So working in a foreign outsourced company is working in the real
> > world? Man, you just insulted the majority of the IT workforce in the
> > country. Malaysia is a country which is mostly SMB/SMEs; so those IT
> > guys are in Never-Never Land? What about those who are on their own?
> > They don't do real work but you do?
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Mohd Hanif]

Eric,

Following up on your banter towards Zaman's post earlier, I was wondering,
what is your point really?

You said:
*Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
promotion of FOSS?*

First and foremost, what is wrong with working as a Helpdesk? Can you not
promote FOSS while at the same time working as a Helpdesk? Even a cook can
promote FOSS(If they really want to, of course)

I, myself have 2-3 friends who used to be helpdesk a while ago are now
working as a System Engineer in MNC's company and even one of them are
starting his own IT-related business.

and ... After all, we need to start somewhere do we?*

*You said:*
I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!*

He was merely advertising a vacancy in his company where he works, I did not
see any logos or words that he said supporting proprietary software as you
mentioned?

Yes we are promoting FOSS, but, we do it the healthy way. I don't want to
slap my friend just because he uses Microsoft office instead of Open office.

*
*

2009/7/31 Eric Yeoh
> Haris,
>
> I am attacking the issue not the man. Yes, he has every right to voice
> his opinions and so can I. But I strongly disagree with what he meant
> by "the real world".
>
> So after being through all the unfortunate events you have gone
> through at the bank, you would still think it is a good idea to
> demoralise youngsters so that they can learn "about working in the
> real world"? And no; to answer your questions, I will not like the
> audit and the reporting parts, but of course you are already aware of
> my eventual answer. Who would?
>
> Look, you know and I know the many silly things that happens within
> MNCs. After all you have been through it. As you well said, I am
> merely stating my point as much as your mate was.
>
> And this hostility? I am unsure where it comes from. I make noise?
>
> Hmmm...interesting.
>
> Eric
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Harisfazillah
> Jamel wrote:
> > Eric,
> >
> > You pick a wrong person to fight with.
> >
> > Numbers of us including Sharuzzaman been through for what you had
> > written. That include freelancing
> > for many years, joining SMB and many more things.
> >
> > Sharuzzaman has the right to write what he is saying
> > because he being through that.
> >
> > I had work with ICT banking sector for 13 years.
> > You tell me of any shit that I had been through.
> >
> > By doing all the bullshit of paper works, audit,
> > ISO and many procudures do you think I like it?
> >
> > Do you like to be audit by two teams of audit every
> > month?
> >
> > Every servers and jobs that you do will be check
> > and any different in your reports will be questions
> > and report to higher level.
> >
> > What I want to tell you is this. If we want our
> > young generation to know and fell what, how and
> > where to get all the exposure let them join
> > the big companies and MNC. Let them know
> > office politics, tendang terajang and know new things
> > that SMB could not give.
> >
> > at the end of the day, they will gain knowledge
> > that our country need....
> >
> > Rather than making noise and keep blaming others
> > lets fix the problems.
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Eric Yeoh
>
> wrote:
> > > So working in a foreign outsourced company is working in the real
> > > world? Man, you just insulted the majority of the IT workforce in the
> > > country. Malaysia is a country which is mostly SMB/SMEs; so those IT
> > > guys are in Never-Never Land? What about those who are on their own?
> > > They don't do real work but you do?
> >
> > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Johann Amin]

On 07/31/2009 11:24 AM, Mohd Hanif wrote:
> Eric,
>
> Following up on your banter towards Zaman's post earlier, I was wondering,
> what is your point really?
>
> You said:
> *Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
> promotion of FOSS?*
>
> First and foremost, what is wrong with working as a Helpdesk? Can you not
> promote FOSS while at the same time working as a Helpdesk? Even a cook can
> promote FOSS(If they really want to, of course)
>
> I, myself have 2-3 friends who used to be helpdesk a while ago are now
> working as a System Engineer in MNC's company and even one of them are
> starting his own IT-related business.
>
> and ... After all, we need to start somewhere do we?*
>
> *You said:*
> I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
> software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!*
>
> He was merely advertising a vacancy in his company where he works, I did not
> see any logos or words that he said supporting proprietary software as you
> mentioned?

I feel that job applications/advertising should not be posted on the 
mailing list unless it is specific to the topic of the mailing itself. 
For example, people posting job offers in the ffmpeg mailing list, are 
very specific (most of the time) about the prospect needing to fix 
certain bugs, extend functionality or to build new video filters _FOR_ 
ffmpeg. I don't see (or haven't seen) postings about needing "potential 
and aspiring graduates to join out team in delivering 
_VIDEO_ENCODING_SOLUTIONS_ to customers worldwide" . This advertisement 
doesn't specify anything related to either Fedora/Linux or FOSS.
> Yes we are promoting FOSS, but, we do it the healthy way. I don't want to
> slap my friend just because he uses Microsoft office instead of Open office.
>
> 2009/7/31 Eric Yeoh
> > Haris,
> >
> > I am attacking the issue not the man. Yes, he has every right to voice
> > his opinions and so can I. But I strongly disagree with what he meant
> > by "the real world".
> >
> > So after being through all the unfortunate events you have gone
> > through at the bank, you would still think it is a good idea to
> > demoralise youngsters so that they can learn "about working in the
> > real world"? And no; to answer your questions, I will not like the
> > audit and the reporting parts, but of course you are already aware of
> > my eventual answer. Who would?
> >
> > Look, you know and I know the many silly things that happens within
> > MNCs. After all you have been through it. As you well said, I am
> > merely stating my point as much as your mate was.
> >
> > And this hostility? I am unsure where it comes from. I make noise?
> >
> > Hmmm...interesting.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Harisfazillah
> > Jamel  wrote:
> > > Eric,
> > >
> > > You pick a wrong person to fight with.
> > >
> > > Numbers of us including Sharuzzaman been through for what you had
> > > written. That include freelancing
> > > for many years, joining SMB and many more things.
> > >
> > > Sharuzzaman has the right to write what he is saying
> > > because he being through that.
> > >
> > > I had work with ICT banking sector for 13 years.
> > > You tell me of any shit that I had been through.
> > >
> > > By doing all the bullshit of paper works, audit,
> > > ISO and many procudures do you think I like it?
> > >
> > > Do you like to be audit by two teams of audit every
> > > month?
> > >
> > > Every servers and jobs that you do will be check
> > > and any different in your reports will be questions
> > > and report to higher level.
> > >
> > > What I want to tell you is this. If we want our
> > > young generation to know and fell what, how and
> > > where to get all the exposure let them join
> > > the big companies and MNC. Let them know
> > > office politics, tendang terajang and know new things
> > > that SMB could not give.
> > >
> > > at the end of the day, they will gain knowledge
> > > that our country need....
> > >
> > > Rather than making noise and keep blaming others
> > > lets fix the problems.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Eric Yeoh
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > So working in a foreign outsourced company is working in the real
> > > > world? Man, you just insulted the majority of the IT workforce in the
> > > > country. Malaysia is a country which is mostly SMB/SMEs; so those IT
> > > > guys are in Never-Never Land? What about those who are on their own?
> > > > They don't do real work but you do?
> > >
> > > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
> >
> > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list

[Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Johann Amin wrote:
> I feel that job applications/advertising should not be posted on the mailing
> list unless it is specific to the topic of the mailing itself. For example,
> people posting job offers in the ffmpeg mailing list, are very specific
> (most of the time) about the prospect needing to fix certain bugs, extend
> functionality or to build new video filters _FOR_ ffmpeg. I don't see (or
> haven't seen) postings about needing "potential and aspiring graduates to
> join out team in delivering _VIDEO_ENCODING_SOLUTIONS_ to customers
> worldwide" . This advertisement doesn't specify anything related to either
> Fedora/Linux or FOSS.

+1

agree

[Slaya Chronicles - Geeko Acolyte]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Mohd Hanif wrote:
> Eric,
>
> Following up on your banter towards Zaman's post earlier, I was wondering,
> what is your point really?
>
> You said:
> *Nice, another ad for helpdesk. How is that going to further our
> promotion of FOSS?*
>
> First and foremost, what is wrong with working as a Helpdesk? Can you not
> promote FOSS while at the same time working as a Helpdesk? Even a cook can
> promote FOSS(If they really want to, of course)

Nothing wrong, clean and honest job, but how does that benefit FOSS? I
cannot say whether I know many cooks who can do FOSS, but it would be
awesome if they could.
> I, myself have 2-3 friends who used to be helpdesk a while ago are now
> working as a System Engineer in MNC's company and even one of them are
> starting his own IT-related business.

Good for them/him.
> and ... After all, we need to start somewhere do we?*

Indeed we do.
> *You said:*
> I am sorry but you are putting out an ad to support proprietary
> software in a FOSS mailing list. Do not expect to be treated kindly!*
>
> He was merely advertising a vacancy in his company where he works, I did not
> see any logos or words that he said supporting proprietary software as you
> mentioned?

Indeed I jumped the gun on that. I have spoken to T-Systems people and
they were adamant that they only do Windows. As I replied earlier on
the thread, the Managers I spoke to during my interview did not
inspire confidence either.
> Yes we are promoting FOSS, but, we do it the healthy way. I don't want to
> slap my friend just because he uses Microsoft office instead of Open office.

You don't need to slap him/her unless there is mutual consent.
>

I do admit I was git when I replied to his initial post. No excuses. I
was possibly in a bad mood and in retrospect I should have worded it
better. But possibly I lost it when he made assumptions of my
intelligence and degenerated to name calling.

Eric
> 2009/7/31 Eric Yeoh
> > Haris,
> >
> > I am attacking the issue not the man. Yes, he has every right to voice
> > his opinions and so can I. But I strongly disagree with what he meant
> > by "the real world".
> >
> > So after being through all the unfortunate events you have gone
> > through at the bank, you would still think it is a good idea to
> > demoralise youngsters so that they can learn "about working in the
> > real world"? And no; to answer your questions, I will not like the
> > audit and the reporting parts, but of course you are already aware of
> > my eventual answer. Who would?
> >
> > Look, you know and I know the many silly things that happens within
> > MNCs. After all you have been through it. As you well said, I am
> > merely stating my point as much as your mate was.
> >
> > And this hostility? I am unsure where it comes from. I make noise?
> >
> > Hmmm...interesting.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Harisfazillah
> > Jamel wrote:
> > > Eric,
> > >
> > > You pick a wrong person to fight with.
> > >
> > > Numbers of us including Sharuzzaman been through for what you had
> > > written. That include freelancing
> > > for many years, joining SMB and many more things.
> > >
> > > Sharuzzaman has the right to write what he is saying
> > > because he being through that.
> > >
> > > I had work with ICT banking sector for 13 years.
> > > You tell me of any shit that I had been through.
> > >
> > > By doing all the bullshit of paper works, audit,
> > > ISO and many procudures do you think I like it?
> > >
> > > Do you like to be audit by two teams of audit every
> > > month?
> > >
> > > Every servers and jobs that you do will be check
> > > and any different in your reports will be questions
> > > and report to higher level.
> > >
> > > What I want to tell you is this. If we want our
> > > young generation to know and fell what, how and
> > > where to get all the exposure let them join
> > > the big companies and MNC. Let them know
> > > office politics, tendang terajang and know new things
> > > that SMB could not give.
> > >
> > > at the end of the day, they will gain knowledge
> > > that our country need....
> > >
> > > Rather than making noise and keep blaming others
> > > lets fix the problems.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Eric Yeoh
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > So working in a foreign outsourced company is working in the real
> > > > world? Man, you just insulted the majority of the IT workforce in the
> > > > country. Malaysia is a country which is mostly SMB/SMEs; so those IT
> > > > guys are in Never-Never Land? What about those who are on their own?
> > > > They don't do real work but you do?
> > >
> > > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
> >
> > Fedora-my-list mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list
>
> Fedora-my-list mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-my-list