> From: Gain Paolo Mureddu :
> I understand about this, but the problem is that printing houses don't.
> They mostly use PMS and especially down here (Mexico City) it is a
As someone that has been both a buyer of printing services and a
provider of printing services, the printer does not drive the accuracy
of color reproduction, the designer does. Some designers are willing to
accept what color accuracy a given printer provides by default. It is
my opinion that is a terrible thing to do. The print buyer is in a
position to refuse a job if color accuracy is not acceptable. The
tools used are not an excuse for poor project management.
> Even Adobe native formats have problems
I have never personally had a problem with the native formats of Adobe
graphic tools in over 16 years using them.
> as most print houses
> use Corel tools.
That is unfortunate, Corel tools are considered second rate in the
graphics industry for a reason. That is not to say you can't do good
design with Corel tools, or that they always cause problems. It is more
difficult to get consistent work from Corel tools in my experience.
> Inkscape 0.43-3.fc5, x86_64.
> The infinity symbol freshly opened, I get the following values (from
> RGBA to Hex):
> Background (bubble)
> RGBA: 5 43 97 255
> HSL: 152 230 51 255
> CYMK: 97 55 0 62 100
> Hex: 002b61ff
> Infinity symbol:
> RGBA: 10 87 164 255
> HSL: 149 226 87 255
> CYMK: 95 48 0 36 100
> Hex: 0856a4ff
> Freedom "f":
> RGBA: 255 255 255 255
> HSL: 0 0 255 255
> CYMK: 0 0 0 100
> Hex: ffffffff
Hmm, interesting. I know that Inkscape pulls in a color management
library when it is installed, perhaps there is a difference in the
configuration of that system between our two computers. I don't have
the time to research that right now.
> Still I found have some questions
> about background color and the symbol... As I noticed in the default
> splash screen, boot screen and wallpaper: The infinity symbol has both
> highlight and a white border to prevent it be lost in the darker blue
This is a separate issue from the format in which the logo is supplied.
> My question would be: For darker backgrounds, could we add a
> light/white border to better outline the symbol so it won't be lost and
> keep deffinition? That would be editing the symbol, true, but it would
> also make it more visible (or simply visible).
Doing that is technically against the usage guide. That is why I would
like to have only certain backgrounds be acceptable. Alternatively, it
should be specified how to handle backgrounds that can make the logo
unreadable, or a special logo that has a white outline or glow
>> Those are binary structures ( CDATA ) that are used instead of ( or in
>> addition to ) the SVG when the file is re-opened in Illustrator.
>> If you use a text editor to cut out those entries, InkScape is still
> But that would be editing the original files, which I thought was
> strictly forbidden by the guidelines...
Yes, I mentioned that not to suggest you do that, but to illustrate
that the CDATA is not a necessary part of the file to maintain its
compatibility with the SVG spec.
> let those who
> control the graphics politics for Fedora, handle this, remove those
> extra instructions, and may be provide two versions of the files: One
> native Adobe format, and one in "pure" SVG format.
Yes, I agree. Because the SVG was created in a way that included a
significant amount of data extraneous to the SVG specification, it
would be better for that file to be "cleaned up" for distribution.
Native program files would be a good idea too, as well as formats that
are better for some other common use cases, like EPS for print.
System Admin - Silver Oaks Communications
824 17th Street, Moline IL 61265
> Indeed the problem with CMYK in Inkscape seems to be that as the format
> does not support other color schemes than RGBA. Which ends up in the
> problems with CMYK and HSL, as the program will dynamicall convert
> between RGBA and CMYK/HSL as you move the handlers. So the problem is a
> format problem and not a program problem, per se...
If there was a standard way to map from one color space to another that
all programs could use, then it isn't a program problem either. Wait,
there is a standard way to do that ( color management using ICC
profiles ). However, as I mentioned in a previous post, there are
problems with that solution.
> Which pretty much
> ties our hands to proprietary software and formats.
No, as I mentioned in a previous post, EPS has wonderful support for
CMYK. It is not a proprietary format, the specification is open.
Several programs read and/or write EPS. This is why I recommended
supplying different formats specific to the end use instead of just one
format that essentially only covers one use case.
There are Linux graphics tools that will deal with EPS ( Inkscape can
export ). However because at my job I do not use Linux-based graphics
tools very often, I can't rattle off all the programs and how well they
PDF could work too, many layout programs can use PDF interchangeably
with EPS. It must be a _vector_ format, not a pixel format like PNG,
TIFF, or JPEG.
> Reading through some file format specifications from the W3C (the png
> spec, for instance) says that the CMYK color space is too
> device-dependent to be useful as portable image representation... I
> don't fully understand this. I thought RGBA was the one
> device-dependant, which had a great deal of variation from device to
This is true of _any_ device color space.
I personally think there is greater variation in RGB color than CMYK (
even if the PNG spec writers think the opposite ). Any time you adjust
the brightness, contrast, or any other setting on your monitor, you are
actually changing the colormetric value of all the colors displayed.
Beyond the capabilities of each monitor to display a given color, each
end users' adjustment of that monitor changes the color too. That is a
circus of variety.
As a further example, the color space of standard def NTSC television
signals is different from the color space for HD television. That means
the RGB values of a graphic will appear different when shown in
standard def verses high def, unless you take precautions to keep the
> This whole thing confuses the heck out o me, as I'm only an
> amateur with this stuff
Um, believe me, a lot of professionally trained designers are confused
too. Good designers are aware of the issues and problems associated
with reproducing a specific color on different devices, and work hard
to make sure the colors in an identity are consistent across all media
- web, print, TV, even ads on the side of a bus.
> (who would have thought that pretty graphics
> were filled with bureaucracy and XYZ standards?)
Well, me ;)
> Anyway, that's the
> state of things, and if I want to play in this field, I have to abide
> these rules...
It would be better to look at this site-
> I may be a total inexperienced user and complete amateur when it comes
> to graphics design and color theory, but unless I'm terribly wrong,
> that's why the Pantone® color numbers are used, isn't it?,
Without going into a long discussion on color reproduction, there are
some bad things about specifying a color via the PMS system. Simply
put, PMS was designed to use the Pantone inks only, so if you use any
other color space ( let's say some obscure ones like RGB or CMYK ), you
won't get what you specified. ( I'm surprised several people jumped up
and down about the free font issue, but no one mentions using a
proprietary, single vendor color system ;) Anyway, the big difficulty
is getting various output devices to reliably match a PMS color. Most
companies that print stuff work very hard to get that right behind the
scenes, it doesn't always come easy.
That said, PMS is considered a standard in the graphics/print industry,
so using PMS to specify the colors is not really a wrong move. But it
isn't a silver bullet that solves all color reproduction issues.
> I am using
> Inkscape, as I'm doing all in Linux with free software... One thing
> though... As you say, CMYK values are rather odd, however the
> hexadecimal values and the RGBA values DO correspond to those in the
The values reported by my version of Inkscape ( 0.43-3.fc5, PPC )
for PMS 2935
Hex : 0A57A4
RGB : R10, G87, B164
CMYK : C94, M47, Y0, K36
for PMS 541
Hex : 072B61
RGB : R6, G43, B97
CMYK : C93, M56, Y6, K62
I'd be interested if yours were different from these.
Those hex values above are what is in the SVG, but they don't match the
usage guide hex values.
> I would assume there is a problem with CMYK support in Inkscape,
> which might be worth to report to the mailing list.
I mentioned this previously, the SVG spec doesn't support CMYK or
PMS, so Inkscape makes some guesses to convert to those color spaces.
There is a way to save an SVG as an Inkscape-only SVG that maintains
those values, but those values won't get used by another program that
opens the file. Similar to the issue where Illustrator is able to get
the colors right if it opens the SVG, but Inkscape can't.
> I have had some
> trouble manipulating the files in Inkscape (only tried with the
> symbol, though), but I had to resort to the XML editor to be able to
> select the different four elements of the drawing, when trying to
> with the mouse, only a grouped selection is possible..
There are two selection tools in Inkscape, you might have been using
the one that doesn't let you select objects within a group. I didn't
have a problem.
> I suppose this
> is what the original designer intended, and (compared to a "pure" SVG
> made with Inkscape),
Yes, mere mortals should really not be poking around within these
files, as per the guidelines they shouldn't be modified. I opened them
because I wanted to verify how the files would open and work in several
different graphics programs.
> the file has two additional images (one in jpeg
I believe that is a thumbnail used to preview files in the Adobe "Open
File" dialog box. It's not useful for much else.
> and one in PGF [for whatever that is]) which I have been unable
> to export
Those are binary structures ( CDATA ) that are used instead of ( or in
addition to ) the SVG when the file is re-opened in Illustrator.
If you use a text editor to cut out those entries, InkScape is still
" All SVG colors are specified in the sRGB color space "
ICC color profiles can be used to specify other color spaces.
Of course, the "one distribution" has changed over time. It used to be
SuSE, then when I switched to PowerPC it was YellowDog, then when Fedora
did a PPC version I switched to that (so that I could have the same
thing on my G5 desktop and my regular x86 laptop).
So right now it happens to be FC5."
>>> Please be sure not to violate any of the guidelines.
>> Repercussions are ?
> One of the clauses for approval is revocability. That means, if you
> violate the guidelines outrageously and refuse to comply with
> requests to get the mark in line, we tell you to take it down. Go far
> enough down that line and lawyers would probably get involved, I
> but I can't see that happening more than once or twice.
Very reasonable. I think it is good that this short description is
available for public reference.
> The new logo guidelines are out!
I am glad to see the guidelines are simple, short, and easy to
understand, at least from the perspective of someone used to looking at
this type of document. Some comments:
The color of the guides used to delineate the clear space reserved
around the graphics is difficult to read, and is too similar to the
color choices of the graphics. As someone that has created bluelines in
the past, I understand why light blue was chosen, but I think gray or
black may have been a better choice.
I would recommend that acceptable background colors be specifically
listed, and all others prohibited. This is common in other graphic
standards documents I have been exposed to. I think the "whitelist" for
backgrounds should be white or the listed PMS 2935. It isn't hard for
me to close my eyes and imagine some rather distasteful or problematic
background colors used, but maybe that's my problem. For example, the
logo on a background of PMS 541 ( the dark blue ) would make the symbol
almost disappear, but that is not prohibited by the document. The logo
on black would lose the symbol in the darkness ( logotype in white ),
although it would not be as bad as a background of PMS 541.
Perhaps the clear space around the logo if it is placed on a
non-acceptable background could have rounded edges similar to the
backgrounds used in the usage guide. This would make a "badge" of
sorts. Of course, a radius for the corners relating to the x-height
shown would be a good idea.
The link for the recommended font should be clickable in the document.
I understand that the document was exported out of InDesign 3.0.1,
where that is not easy to do. I can do that for you if the originator
of the document is not able to.
There is no other contact information in the document. I think there
should be a URL listed where designer could go to check for the latest
version of the document, or for links to the graphics files. PDF files
tend to get stored locally on hard drives. Once the usage guide is
separated from the web site, there are no internal references to make
it back to from where the document came.
The RGB and CMYK colors should be listed as approximate, since how
devices render those values varies considerably. However without using
LAB values, what you have is probably the best you can do.
Although many people assume all RGB values are specified on a scale of
0-255, there are several graphics programs that use 0-100. The scale of
RGB values is not mentioned in the document.
Curiously, if I open the SVG files in InkScape, not the originating
program ( Illustrator 11 ), the color values are much different from
those specified in the usage document ( in _all_ color spaces ). In my
tests, if I used Illustrator 11 or 12, the colors are specified
correctly ( but not in Illustrator 10 ). However, it is likely that
someone will use InkScape ( or Xara LX ) to open these graphics files.
Although I would expect there would be a huge scream about proprietary
formats, I would recommend providing the original .ai files for those
that _want_ to use Illustrator, .svg files exported from InkScape with
correct color values for thse that want to use that program, and CMYK
.eps files for use specifically in print. SVG is great, but it doesn't
support CMYK very well ( if at all ), so if you need to distribute
something specifically for print, EPS is the best format. You could
have 2 PMS color EPS files as well. Many modern color laser printers
support DeviceN color ( like at Kinko's ), so color matching is
generally better now using PMS specification rather than CMYK, a switch
from a few short years ago.
The recommended font could be shown in a range of sizes instead of just
one size to better illustrate the feel of the font.
Will there be a layout file/template so that printed information
distributed at LUG meeting would have a consistent look ?
( OOo, Scribus, InDesign, XPress )
A OOo Impress template ?
Otherwise, great job !
> Please be sure not to violate any of the guidelines.
Repercussions are ?
I've got a big steel ruler, but it doesn't stretch that far . . .
Good morning, all.
Pure Marketing stuff for you this morning! Sponsored Media is beginning
to pick up steam, but it could still use your help to get the word out
(the marketing part).
A couple of days ago, Sponsored Media was given some very valuable
webspace , and it's beginning to pay off.
We've shipped 6 sponsored discs in the last two days, which is just
about as many as we have done since the beginning of the program.
You can see from the May tracking page , that there are still many
requests that need to be filled to get us on track for continual
So, Please, continue to talk about Sponsored Media whenever you see a
slight opening. It doesn't have to be a sales pitch or anything
spectacular. Just toss the Sponsored Media link around  when you see
anyone saying anything about ways to contribute to Fedora.
You can also Digg the news about Sponsored Media.
There is an article about Sponsored Media  already on Digg.com and
could use some diggs to bring it out of obscurity.
If you're not familiar with Digg.com, it's a system by which the
community at large decides what's news and what's not.
Owner, Webpath Technologies
On the Web at:
> I still wonder why a proprietary font was used for the
> logo of a project like Fedora
What font is used in a logo really does not impact the choice of other
fonts used in a layout that includes that logo. In fact, it is my
opinion that using a font in a layout that is the _same_ as the font
used in a logo included in the layout dilutes the impact of the logo.
These other fonts certainly could be fonts that are free to use.
In other words, why would you want to use the font from the logo
anywhere else in a design ?
I would think the Fedora Project would want to control what other fonts
are used in any layouts or graphics, so a consistent image is presented
at all times. Is there any work being done on an identity style guide
for the Fedora Project ? If you are not sure what I am talking about,
Google "identity guide" and take a look how other organizations
document best practices on the use of their logos, and creating
documents or layouts to present a consistent visual identity.
> Fortunately, we have big images with the logo and is trivial to trace
> them (Inkscape, potrace, autotrace, etc.) and obtain a version in
> format, at least this is what i did for my own use
Most organizations prefer to keep the reproduction quality of the
graphics used in their visual identity at a high level. Re-processing (
as the above quote suggests ) or modifying original graphics can lead
to poor quality graphics, which can translate into a poor identity, or
a negative reaction to the graphics. That is generally accepted as a
Bad Thing. Most organizations that go through the effort to develop a
logo or other visual identity also make the effort to make sure every
use of their logo is up to a certain standard. I have heard the term
"logo cop" used for individuals with that responsibility.
Using a poor quality Fedora logo could hurt the Project more than it
would help promote it, if that poor quality logo degrades the visual
identity of the Project.
It is unfortunate that the usage guidelines have not considered all
possible usage cases, and that has caused delays in the ability for
some to use the logo. With visual identity, you only have the first
shot at making a good impression. Protecting the visual identity of the
Fedora Project is nearly as important as protecting your personal
identity, so I understand the care that must be taken here.
System Admin - Silver Oaks Communications
824 17th Street, Moline IL 61265