Good morning all,
Just a little note to say that I've just handed in my final piece of
work for this year, and am hoping to pick up little bits and pieces of
Fedora stuff over the summer. I've been keeping tabs on what's going
on, but wondered where help is most needed right now and how I can
make myself most useful for the project again?
On 06/24/2009 12:06 AM, Bryan Lunduke wrote:
> I appreciate that you're putting some thought into your replies.
> You have still not addressed one of the core issues here. That being
> that work is being done within Fedora to replace existing functionality
> with new software that provides no new functional gain (and is, in fact,
> nothing more than a clone of existing software).
The functional gain as I have already explained is less disk space and
less RAM usage on the Live CD. Remember, since the Live CD already
doesn't include Tomboy for the past couple of releases, the addition of
Gnote brings in the benefit of a nice note taking app by default and
indeed this has been one of the primary motivations in bringing in Gnote
Just in case, you think I am doing it because of anti Mono FUD or dumb
group thinking as Chris choose to put it, I filed and got a dependency
fixed in Mono only recently
(https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=506917) that will actually
reduce the size of Tomboy dependency. Fedora has been one of the most
innovative distributions in Linux and that didn't happen via group
thinking. Give us a little bit more credit than that.
> Even if the core development of the application in question is being
> done elsewhere, by individuals not associated directly with Fedora, the
> work involved with testing and packaging is not at all insignificant.
> The impact on the overall distro is large.
As the Gnote maintainer in Fedora and the one who brought into the
distribution in the first place, I think I am in a better position to
determine the overall impact and I can clearly tell you it isn't as
large as you think it is. Sure, I have had to deal with a few bug
reports but I have a very responsive upstream who even even answered bug
report directly in Red Hat Bugzilla (thanks hub), it has been a pleasure
to bring the Fedora users this application not to mention that I use it
myself along with many of my peers on a daily basis which is a certainly
a good selfish advantage.
> On top of this, statements made by individuals involved with Fedora in
> regards to Mono... all add up to a bit of a PR nightmare for you guys.
Mono has been controversial and not just within Fedora but across the
Free software landscape. There is no denying that. If that controversy
causes so high emotions in Linux Action Show that you are willing to
accuse project members of being deceptive liars or incompetent just
because they choose a single different default , I think it shows more
about the calibre of the people making that claims rather than the
project that the claim is made against.
All I ask is for basic courtesy, decency and thorough ground standing on
facts and based on research while indulging in criticism. I understand
you both are busy people and hence my offer to answer any questions now
and in the future. Engage us in a dialogue or a debate if you will
instead of standing and screaming from a roof top on your own. Unlike
some of proprietary products, the transparency in what we do enables you
to have the opportunity to discuss concerns directly with the decision
makers and other people involved in the project.
I wouldn't be the one to ever claim Fedora Project is free of bugs
(there is no such thing) or that we don't have things we really need to
improve but I am hearing something quite different in your podcasts esp
the last one. Should we improve our QA? Absolutely and you will hear not
just Fedora but every mainstream distribution readily admit that but a
blanket claim that nobody has been able to install Fedora 11 is not a
helpful contribution and is clearly not a factually accurate claim.
This can all be addressed simply enough by making
> formal statements about goals, methods, etc... but as yet this has not
> been done in sufficient form.
As far as the decision of Gnote instead of Tomboy for the Fedora Live
CD, I personally made sure that it was explained in detail at
Chris was even CC'ed by me in earlier media reports on this.
If you are talking about Fedora project in general, everything is
already out in the open but if you have specific questions, again, I
would be happy to answer them. If you want someone in the Fedora
leadership to answer anything in a interview in a future podcast, let us
know and we will do our best to arrange something.
A few references about goals and methods.
Thank you for your understanding.
On 06/23/2009 11:02 PM, Bryan Lunduke wrote:
> Do you happen to know the download numbers for the Live CD vs the DVD
In short: More users use DVD images
Accurate numbers are pretty hard to get. Our torrent shows a much higher
proportion of users downloading the DVD image and that has been
consistent for the previous releases as well.
We can gather some more general stats for downloads via mirror manager
but of course we have no way of easily counting the downloads via
mirrors directly or other forms of redistribution such as magazines
around the world which generally are known to prefer to distribute DVD's
since they hold more packages and there is little to no difference in
the cost of media replication. The fuzziness around this is the reason
why we prefer to count IP connections via yum instead but this doesn't
give you the media preferences. Note that users installing via network
installation would get the same defaults as users downloading the DVD
There is a ongoing project developed elsewhere for a distribution
neutral opt-in way to gather stats on installed packages. Perhaps that
will give us more information on what users prefer in the future.
"This was actually a news item some time back. I do not have a link at
present, so I cannot accurately quote the specific people and time-line,
but this was, indeed, something that has happened. And is just one of
many items that makes one pause."
How about some references to this claim related to Adobe Flash? Adobe
Flash is proprietary software and that is enough reason to exclude it
from Fedora. Why would any other reason be even necessary? It would have
nice to include any such links to the show notes. See, I do pay attention.
> So. What you are saying is... that replacing software with different
> software in a distro is zero work?
> You know better.
Fedora Project isn't really spending anytime reinventing working
software in the form of Gnote. Gnote was developed independently. Any
interested volunteer is free to maintain any free and open source
software (assuming no legal issues) within Fedora. The release
engineering and desktop teams evaluate the set of existing apps in the
repository and make some of them the default where it makes sense and
yes it does make sense for the Live CD to have a smaller application
like Gnote (considering dependencies) because of space constraints. In
the case of Gnote, the effort to do so isn't big at all since Gnote will
automatically import the notes and the interface is the same. So users
won't nice much of a difference except overall fewer resources being
used by Gnote. Is such valid reasons for distribution defaults really a
reason to accuse a project and it's developers of being incompetent or
liars or comparing the process to DRM ? I understand both of you like
some of the Mono apps and it is completely ok to say regardless of
Fedora Project's reasons for picking whatever defaults they did, I
prefer a different set of apps ( KDE instead of GNOME or Banshee instead
of Rhythm box etc and) and that's why we offer thousands of applications
in the repository and the ability to create spins or remixes easily but
I think you folks went way over the top this time without much of a
ground to do so. I would be happy to discuss any concerns you both might
On 06/23/2009 09:23 PM, Bryan Lunduke wrote:
> As the Co-host of the show in question, I think I should correct some
> factual inaccuracies in your email.
> Chris, the other co-host, was the one that said Gnote cannot import
> Tomboy notes. You'll not that IMMEDIATELY after he says this I
> correct him and provide the information that the two applications, in
> fact, use the same file format.
> That you bring this up, worded in the way it was, shows that you did
> not actually watch/listen to the segment in question. Or, at least,
> did not pay attention.
Chris wasn't aware of the details and commented incorrectly that Gnote
doesn't import Tomboy notes and you follow it up with "It's a funny
thing is that it uses the same file format. This gnote thing is
ridiculous" That sounds like you are both agreeing with each other
rather than correcting anything and yes, I did pay attention.
> I think comparing the decision to
> include or exclude any particular application, by default or otherwise
> to DRM is over the top as well. I came across a blog post at
> which conveys what I wanted to say about that. As of now, Fedora
> continues to include the latest Mono applications in the repository.
> But not included by default, correct? If we are wrong.
Yes, you are both wrong. Fedora 11 which is the latest release
continues to include Tomboy and F-Spot installed by default. Fedora 12
will include Gnote by default instead of Tomboy in the Live CD and
F-Spot continues to be default in the DVD as of now.
> And the Fedora project is spending zero time re-inventing working
> software... then let us know.
That's absolutely right. Gnote is developed by Hub (cc'ed) who is a
independent developer not associated with the Fedora Project. I don't
mind a rant as long as it is valid criticism but in this case, it seems
to have been based on misconceptions instead. It would be courteous to
post some corrections. Thanks.
We will have our general, regularly weekly meeting today at the MODIFIED
time of 18.00UTC in #fedora-meeting. We will be discussing issues
relevant to what I posted on the list/blog yesterday and future
directions for marketing. If you feel like you have something good to
contribute please join us.
Interesting blog post detailing the steps to setup a private mirror of
Fedora that is listed in Fedora's Mirror Manager
"The best thing is that it works across all package requests, including
new machines, roaming users, ‘preupgrade’, etc. All in all, pretty
nifty! Your users will love you when their upgrades are almost
instant! The Fedora infrastructure is set up very well for mirroring,
public and private, and this is how the project copes with the huge
demand for new releases. "
-------- Original Message --------
From: Rahul Sundaram
To:: Chris <chris AT linuxactionshow.com>, bryan AT
linuxactionshow.com, Hubert Figuiere <hub AT figuiere.net>
Hi Bryan and Chris,
I had a chance to hear your commentary or more of a rant on Mono and
As the maintainer of Gnote in Fedora, I think I should add a few
clarifications and correct some factual inaccuracies in your podcast.
In about 1:20 hrs, Bryan adds a comment that Gnote cannot import Tomboy
notes. This is completely incorrect. Gnote and Tomboy use the same file
format and Gnote in 0.5 version even has a plugin to import Tomboy notes
on the first run. It would have been trivial to verify this for yourself.
On the size issue - Tomboy and F-Spot has been default in Fedora for
quite sometime. However from Fedora 10 onwards, it hasn't been in the
*Live CD* because of space constraints and none of the Mono apps would
be installed by default if you install via the Live CD. Since Gnote is
written in C++ and the dependencies related to that including the gtkmm
packages were already in the Live CD due to other applications,
including Gnote by default in the Live CD is more easier. Installation
via DVD images doesn't have the same constraints and can have a
different set of defaults. The release notes draft for Fedora 12 Beta
published early, already has all this information
Before painting a broad stroke and accusing developers of lying or being
incompetent, it would be better to contact them and get a direct opinion
to cover the full story.
Adobe Flash - I have heard no one in Fedora claiming that Red Hat Legal
is looking into it. It simply isn't included because Fedora doesn't
include any proprietary applications. I think comparing the decision to
include or exclude any particular application, by default or otherwise
to DRM is over the top as well. I came across a blog post at
which conveys what I wanted to say about that. As of now, Fedora
continues to include the latest Mono applications in the repository. It
was a long podcast and I could add more clarifications but suffice to
say that you both went high on emotions and low on facts. Next time, you
aren't sure of the details about anything related to Fedora, feel free
to contact us and we can help you understand why we make the decisions
we do. Thank you for your time.