1:06 p.m.
How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1
If each of us chip in on a small AD in the New York Times, The Boston Globe,
and The Washington Post, with the Line : "What can Fedora do for you?
http://fedoraproject.org" in blue bryant2 font lettering, more and more
regular folks and frustrated Windoze Users will go there and find out how to
download it. Also, where to purchase a Live CD or Installation DVD is also
posted. It is very important to get MORE exposure so Ubuntu will want to
compete on that level too. Save Our Fedora From Ubuntu!!!
Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com
1:12 p.m.
Markus McLaughlin wrote:
How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1
If each of us chip in on a small AD in the New York Times, The Boston
Globe, and The Washington Post, with the Line : "What can Fedora do for
you? http://fedoraproject.org" in blue bryant2 font lettering, more and
more regular folks and frustrated Windoze Users will go there and find
out how to download it. Also, where to purchase a Live CD or
Installation DVD is also posted. It is very important to get MORE
exposure so Ubuntu will want to compete on that level too. Save Our
Fedora From Ubuntu!!!
Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com <http://linuxglobe.wordpress.com>
It's not about who gets the bigger userbase.
It's not about who gets the most users off Windows.
It's not about who gets the most exposure.
And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either.
Kind regards,
Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip
2:28 a.m.
On 8/2/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
It's not about who gets the bigger userbase.
It's not about who gets the most users off Windows.
It's not about who gets the most exposure.
And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either.
Hello,
I tend to agree with Jeroen van Meeuwen's words. However even some
Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this.
Take for example, during the last European events, Fedora was open for
talks with Centos and OpenSuse and do have good relations with them.
In the upcoming events, I'm sure it will still be like that.
As for fedora marketing, many consider fedora as a distribution like
others and tend to ignore * what fedora project really is
* what are the goals of fedora project
* and what it produces and what are the products.
Fedora has some beauties inside that aren't well publicized, e.g
Fedora Directory Server, Xen, OLPC, aiglx, Fedora Artwork (whose
status is just getting better and better), the idea behind smolt,
revisor, a community, TRANSPARENCY (does anyone else have it, without
internal fights?? ) ... the list goes on !!!
All these to say, that if you really understand the Fedora Project,
you will see there is no other reasons to compete directly with other
distributions.
I like the idea of spreading the word about fedora in the daily life
of all humans. Because I personally don't like windows users to
consider ubuntu = linux, as that would underrate fedora contributors'
contribution. But direct competition (which is good or which is bad)
isn't the right way.
regards,
Chitlesh
--
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com
3:43 a.m.
I agree with Chitlesh, we should not start a "distro war" neither ignoring
people and doing our stuff apart.
Our goal is not to get the biggest user base (well, that doesn't mean
getting a smaller user base too ;-) ) but to push forward the free software
thing and open contents.
We should find new ways to advertize Fedora Project for the following
reasons:
* explain what Fedora Project is and aims at.
Our goal is not to overthrow Microsoft or anyone else, but to open up the
space for free software and open contents.
* share our vision of free software. People still does not understand why
Fedora/Linux does not provide proprietary drivers or patented stuff.
* welcome new members (and not users) in our community.
* help our projects to succeed.
That would suck if something as useful for everyone such as Smolt failed
because people are unaware of it or misunderstood Fedora Project.
* to give back Fedora Project what is Fedora Project.
About fanboys, just ignore them or you'll end up having an ulcer. ;-)
4:17 a.m.
Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
On 8/2/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
> It's not about who gets the bigger userbase.
> It's not about who gets the most users off Windows.
> It's not about who gets the most exposure.
> And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either.
Hello,
I tend to agree with Jeroen van Meeuwen's words. However even some
Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this.
I'm going to go out on a limp here and say some stupid things;
Just maybe it's not about what others understand or how we could make
them understand "the Fedora way of life". You're talking about what
Fedora does in the FOSS world and what it means for FOSS that Fedora
does that. That is all so very true and so very much added value to
FOSS. But what users may tend to appreciate more then whatever Fedora
does or stands for:
What is the added value of Fedora for end-users?
Just like I said, I'm going to say some stupid things here;
I'm not convinced Fedora as a distribution has added value for
end-users. I'm sure I haven't seen it all, but then again, consider that
an end-user hasn't either. Sure it's neat and looks great and has this
huge pile of cutting-edge, stable software but that alone doesn't
distinguish Fedora in any particular way. Sure, it has also made,
(co-)developed and distributed items that one way or the other ended up
in other distributions as well.
Most of the added value for Fedora IMHO is in the background; As a
developer and "community member" -which always is a vague term- I value
so much that Fedora is like an engineer's playground. Fedora adapts new
technologies, embraces them and (co-)develops them; Fedora releases
whatever it used to use to make up and build Fedora to the community
instead of having a limited number of key persons maintain it -the
core/extras merge is an example of that. There's other principle matters
that make the Fedora way of life my way of life -at least whenever I'm
behind a keyboard.
No matter how you put it, or what it is you personally admire in Fedora;
Just consider it may be in the background too much for anyone installing
Fedora and navigating the desktop. If you consider that, I'll ask you again:
From the end-user perspective, what is the added value of Fedora?
If you appreciate that point being made you'll also appreciate that it
is not easy to make others understand all these things that make up
Fedora. I gotta say I'm kinda bluntly taking this one side of the medal
out of context just to make a point. I hope whoever reads this does see
I just want to make /a/ point, not put everything in perspective and
make this one point something major, major, major.
Should we make as much effort to convince anyone Fedora has added value
you don't necessarily immediately learn to appreciate as soon as you see
GDM pop up or navigate the menus? Can we state this in a way that makes
end-users appreciate it, and then not only appreciate it, but also adopt
Fedora instead of any other distribution?
BTW, /please/ don't make this a thread about how wrong I am or what I'm
missing here ;-) Although you may virtually kick me in the teeth about
whatever you think it is I'm absolutely wrong about, it's not what the
thread is about... yet.
Kind regards,
Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip
8:29 a.m.
This is one of the best discussions I've seen on this list in a while, and
I appreciate the sentiments. More inline, below.
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
> On 8/2/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>> It's not about who gets the bigger userbase.
>> It's not about who gets the most users off Windows.
>> It's not about who gets the most exposure.
>> And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either.
>
> Hello,
> I tend to agree with Jeroen van Meeuwen's words. However even some
> Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this.
>
I'm going to go out on a limp here and say some stupid things;
Just maybe it's not about what others understand or how we could make
them understand "the Fedora way of life". You're talking about what
Fedora does in the FOSS world and what it means for FOSS that Fedora
does that. That is all so very true and so very much added value to
FOSS. But what users may tend to appreciate more then whatever Fedora
does or stands for:
What is the added value of Fedora for end-users?
Just like I said, I'm going to say some stupid things here;
I'm not convinced Fedora as a distribution has added value for
end-users. I'm sure I haven't seen it all, but then again, consider that
an end-user hasn't either. Sure it's neat and looks great and has this
huge pile of cutting-edge, stable software but that alone doesn't
distinguish Fedora in any particular way. Sure, it has also made,
(co-)developed and distributed items that one way or the other ended up
in other distributions as well.
Most of the added value for Fedora IMHO is in the background; As a
developer and "community member" -which always is a vague term- I value
so much that Fedora is like an engineer's playground. Fedora adapts new
technologies, embraces them and (co-)develops them; Fedora releases
whatever it used to use to make up and build Fedora to the community
instead of having a limited number of key persons maintain it -the
core/extras merge is an example of that. There's other principle matters
that make the Fedora way of life my way of life -at least whenever I'm
behind a keyboard.
And you, Jeroen, are the primary target audience of Fedora.
To whatever degree we may find ourselves "competing" for users, we must
always remember that, with the choices we make, we choose the users who
care most about us. We choose our users with our focus.
What does Ubuntu focus on? "Make it work for the desktop user, at any
cost." Which is a good focus to broaden the impact of Linux generally --
but it requires a lot of compromises.
What does Fedora focus on? "Innovation in free software, in partnership
with the community." And over time, we treat this partnership more and
more seriously, and we put as much power to innovate into the hands of end
users as we possibly can.
I like our focus. I think it's the right focus. And in the long run, I
think it's the focus that pays higher dividends.
No matter how you put it, or what it is you personally admire in
Fedora;
Just consider it may be in the background too much for anyone installing
Fedora and navigating the desktop. If you consider that, I'll ask you again:
> From the end-user perspective, what is the added value of Fedora?
If you appreciate that point being made you'll also appreciate that it
is not easy to make others understand all these things that make up
Fedora. I gotta say I'm kinda bluntly taking this one side of the medal
out of context just to make a point. I hope whoever reads this does see
I just want to make /a/ point, not put everything in perspective and
make this one point something major, major, major.
Should we make as much effort to convince anyone Fedora has added value
you don't necessarily immediately learn to appreciate as soon as you see
GDM pop up or navigate the menus? Can we state this in a way that makes
end-users appreciate it, and then not only appreciate it, but also adopt
Fedora instead of any other distribution?
I think you're exactly right. We need to communicate this particular
message more effectively: "Fedora leads the fight to make free software
better." *THAT* is the message, from where I sit.
--g
--
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"
12:30 p.m.
Ubuntu is not worried about competing with Fedora. That's why we're worried
about competing with them. That is to say, they made it a primary objective
to be attractive to a different user than Fedora is. They went after the
desktop, and wanted to be on OEM laptop preloads, etc. They also made it a
core value to be a warm and inviting community, and their brand reeks of
it--from their name, to their color scheme, to their logo. They're also
getting a lot of steam from not being Red Hat. Not that Red Hat is bad, but
the new kid in class always gets a lot of attention, doesn't he?
I'm more of a "raise the level of the ocean, and all ships rise together"
sort of guy, but in a competitive situation, the only way to "beat" Ubuntu,
is to get where they are heading, and not worry about where they are right
now. For example, Red Hat didn't beat M$ on the desktop, they beat them to
UNIX consolidation in the data center. So "competing" with Ubunutu would
mean Fedora needs to make a sea change in it's core vision--which is
working, so it would be at the expense of where Fedora already has an
advantage or stringer brand than Ubuntu. Do we want that? Would going there
make us weaken our stronger points, and thusly actually help Ubuntu? Are we
willing to install non-free software so that folks who don't understand
what's truly at stake like us more? Is Ubuntu actually proving the power of
Linux by installing Adobe's Flash player? Or are they compromising the
underlying values of F/OSS a little at a time? So what do they stand for,
what would they flatly refuse to do, even if it put them at a competitive
disadvantage? I don't know, but I know where Fedora stands. When Ubuntu
wins, so does proprietary and patent encumbered software.
Where Fedora wins, freedom wins.
We can be a nicer bunch of folks, we can warm up the brand, we can make a
conscious effort to be as warm and inviting as Ubuntu, we can be more viral,
more word of mouth. But we can't become the fresh faced new kid, and we
can't walk away from free as in freedom.
--jeremy
6:16 p.m.
On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 13:30 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote:
Ubuntu is not worried about competing with Fedora. That's why
we're
worried about competing with them.
Huh?
That is to say, they made it a primary objective to be attractive to
a
different user than Fedora is. They went after the desktop, and wanted
to be on OEM laptop preloads, etc.
Yes, because they offered commercial support as well. Red Hat does too,
but with a different focus. I agreed with Michael Tiemann when he
talked about years ago (and was quite demonized to a different effect)
that the home consumer desktop doesn't have the "economies of scale"
required, so they'd rather do it "for free" by putting its developers on
such a distribution (which became Fedora).
The ignorant IT media exclaimed "Red Hat is getting out of the desktop"
even though Red Hat Desktop went on the shelf and RHEL WS, now Client,
has been offered since RHEL 2.1 (after WS/ES were offered after the
intial Red Hat Advanced Server, now RHEL AS). Red Hat doesn't do this,
people do it by reading into what they want, not necessarily what Red
Hat actually does.
Fedora gets the same treatment.
They also made it a core value to be a warm and inviting community,
And Fedora is not?
and their brand reeks of it--from their name, to their color scheme,
to their logo.
And Fedora is not?
I'm glad you like Ubuntu's marketing. Marketing sells mindshare. But I
don't think Fedora (or Red Hat for that matter) need to take up the
strategy of Ubuntu (or Conical).
I think Shuttleworth's post to the SuSE list shows how wrong that can be
sometimes. I also think Fedora (and Red Hat) _continue_ to have a 12
year history of "under-promise, over-deliver" with many, many, many
professionals.
They're also getting a lot of steam from not being Red Hat.
And that's "new"? People who don't like Red Hat and call them the
"Microsoft of Linux" aren't people Fedora is going to reach anyway.
Heck, there is even any issue with Red Hat being an American company in
the eyes of some. Ironic that it's the most GPL-centric, free IP
company of the lot. Even more ironic is how more GPL-centric and free
IP-focused German-based SuSE became an American company, Novell, bought
them out.
Just goes to show that if people think such, then it really doesn't
matter, and I don't care to reach them anyway.
Not that Red Hat is bad, but the new kid in class always gets a lot
of
attention, doesn't he?
Here's the deal.
Before the "trademark issues," a lot of IT folk used to be able to sell
their boss on installing Red Hat(R) Linux -- because of name. Red Hat
was the _only_ major distro that allowed free redistribution of its
trademark, which became a major legal issue for them with Sun after Sun
bought Cobalt. And no amount of "trademark usage guidelines" seemed to
stop the abuse by companies such as Sun, nor the community demonizing a
real issue Red Hat was running into.
People don't realize that SuSE _never_ allowed its trademarks to abused,
and went after people who did. Novell now doesn't worry as much because
they have Novell(R). Red Hat used the same with Fedora(TM) separate
from Red Hat(R).
About 97% of people who stopped using Red Hat Linux constantly claim
this was their reason, that their boss wouldn't accept Fedora. That's
what they complain about. That's what their problem is. Oh well, get
over it.
Ubuntu is going to run into similar issues if they don't watch it.
Although they do have Conical. It will be interesting.
I'm more of a "raise the level of the ocean, and all ships
rise
together" sort of guy, but in a competitive situation, the only way to
"beat" Ubuntu, is to get where they are heading, and not worry about
where they are right now.
I'm with Tiemann's long demonized speech. The man co-founded the
_first_, _successful_ GPL/open source company in Cygnus. He knows what
matters, what is infeasible, and what requires time to gain marketshare.
It's great that Conical/Ubuntu is addressing this, and at some point, it
may become feasible for Red Hat to offer competing, commercial support.
But I seriously doubt Fedora ever will, by the very nature of its
creation. At the same time, Fedora is not "going to die." In fact, if
and when Red Hat feels there is the "economies of scale" for a
consumer-supported version, don't be surprised when its 100% Fedora
relabeled, repackaged and rebranded.
And I'm sure people will demonize that too when that happens! ;)
For example, Red Hat didn't beat M$ on the desktop, they beat
them to
UNIX consolidation in the data center. So "competing" with Ubunutu
would mean Fedora needs to make a sea change in it's core
vision--which is working, so it would be at the expense of where
Fedora already has an advantage or stringer brand than Ubuntu. Do we
want that? Would going there make us weaken our stronger points, and
thusly actually help Ubuntu? Are we willing to install non-free
software so that folks who don't understand what's truly at stake like
us more? Is Ubuntu actually proving the power of Linux by installing
Adobe's Flash player? Or are they compromising the underlying values
of F/OSS a little at a time? So what do they stand for, what would
they flatly refuse to do, even if it put them at a competitive
disadvantage? I don't know, but I know where Fedora stands. When
Ubuntu wins, so does proprietary and patent encumbered software.
Where Fedora wins, freedom wins.
We can be a nicer bunch of folks, we can warm up the brand, we can
make a conscious effort to be as warm and inviting as Ubuntu, we can
be more viral, more word of mouth. But we can't become the fresh faced
new kid, and we can't walk away from free as in freedom.
I really don't see it as any market Fedora or Red Hat needs to cater to.
Fedora sells on its own merits. Let Conical/Ubuntu have its focus.
As many others have pointed out, that's always a good thing for Linux.
As far as proprietary and IP issues, that _always_ bites companies in
the end. And Red Hat learned that long ago.
11:59 a.m.
On 8/4/07, Bryan J. Smith <b.j.smith(a)ieee.org> wrote:
> They also made it a core value to be a warm and inviting
community,
And Fedora is not?
Compared to Ubuntu? When I hear Ubunutu advocates, I hear how friendly the
UI is, how great the community is. When I hear about Fedora, I hear about
Red Hat, I hear about features.
and their brand reeks of it--from their name, to their color scheme,
> to their logo.
And Fedora is not?
Compared to them? No. Look up the psychological meaning of the colors in
their palette. Now, look up the meaning of blue. They fall into a spectrum
called "warm", whereas blue falls into "cool". As in cold, not like
the
Fonz. What's the definition of the word Ubuntu, versus the definition of a
Fedora? That's what I mean. The name, the color scheme, the logo is about
warmth, community, sharing. Ours is about being near, but not Red Hat.
I'm glad you like Ubuntu's marketing.
You've missed my point, I think, so I'll try and be more clear. I don't like
their marketing any better than Fedora's marketing. I was pointing out that
where they are strong, it is because they made it a primary focus to be
strong. Whereas, Fedora is strong where it set out to be. So my point was
that "competing" with Ubuntu, means being something I don't think any of us
joined this project to be. Sub text to that point was that we shouldn't
target other distros.
Like WalMart versus Target. WalMart always has the best price, Target has
better products. Other than that, you can get all of the same stuff.
Fedora's success isn't predicated on Ubuntu's failure. Their mindshare
gains, are not necessarily at our expense.
--jeremy
12:47 p.m.
On 8/5/07, Jeremy Hogan wrote:
Compared to Ubuntu? When I hear Ubunutu advocates, I hear how
friendly the
UI is, how great the community is. When I hear about Fedora, I hear about
Red Hat, I hear about features.
Except Jono Bacon. He talks only about Mark Shuttleworth and his
fantastic job. :)
chitlesh
12:54 p.m.
Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
On 8/5/07, Jeremy Hogan wrote:
> Compared to Ubuntu? When I hear Ubunutu advocates, I hear how friendly the
> UI is, how great the community is. When I hear about Fedora, I hear about
> Red Hat, I hear about features.
Except Jono Bacon. He talks only about Mark Shuttleworth and his
fantastic job. :)
Get him drunk and see ;-)
Rahul
6:39 p.m.
On Sun, 2007-08-05 at 12:59 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote:
Compared to Ubuntu? When I hear Ubunutu advocates, I hear how
friendly
the UI is, how great the community is. When I hear about Fedora, I
hear about Red Hat, I hear about features.
I think the continued point I'm trying to make is that different users
and contributors to different projects have their own fanboys, their own
interests, their own views, and most of what I hear is rather
unobjective from one to the other and vice-versa.
And some people just have something against Red Hat or anyone associated
with them. I don't really care about those folk because they miss a lot
of what Red Hat and Fedora contributors really do.
In fact, I regularly get the question from clients, "I heard Red Hat
just takes stuff from the community and then sells it."
And I always respond, "Ever look up the #1 company when it comes to
GNU/Linux community contributions? It's not IBM." ;)
Listen, all projects stand on the shoulders of giants. Most people
don't care. They care about marketing. I think Fedora should continue
to and keep doing what it does best, feed the leading edge developments.
This is what I liked about Red Hat Linux prior as well. The model is
very sound and very trusted to us "old dogs."
Compared to them? No. Look up the psychological meaning of the
colors
in their palette. Now, look up the meaning of blue. They fall into a
spectrum called "warm", whereas blue falls into "cool". As in cold,
not like the Fonz. What's the definition of the word Ubuntu, versus
the definition of a Fedora? That's what I mean. The name, the color
scheme, the logo is about warmth, community, sharing. Ours is about
being near, but not Red Hat.
I actually like the "cool blue" taste of the Fedora logo. In fact, the
ballon theme in Fedora 7 was a really nice change from the norm.
Besides, Red Hat is already red. Some associate that with "pinkos."
You can't please everyone, and for every positive I can point out a nay
say. No sense in second guessing.
You've missed my point, I think, so I'll try and be more
clear. I
don't like their marketing any better than Fedora's marketing. I was
pointing out that where they are strong, it is because they made it a
primary focus to be strong. Whereas, Fedora is strong where it set out
to be.
And that's fine by me. It's the proven model since Red Hat Linux 4.0.
So my point was that "competing" with Ubuntu, means being
something I
don't think any of us joined this project to be. Sub text to that
point was that we shouldn't target other distros.
And I disagreed with that? Now I'm confused. @-p
Like WalMart versus Target. WalMart always has the best price,
Target
has better products.
Subjective and unobjective analysis (and I don't like Wal-mart in the
least bit). People will differ.
Heck, I caught several American UAW members driving Toyotas. Almost
made me laugh. They are probably the same people who lambast Wal-mart,
yet still shop there as well.
People often say one thing, then actually do another. I still hear the
complaints about GCC 2.96 from Red Hat Linux 7 -- yet the API/ABI
compatibility of Fedora 7 all the way back to Red Hat Linux 7 is better
than any other distro over that time period. Why? Because Red Hat
forced everyone to ANSI C++ compliance.
Same thing on GLibC 2 before that. Same thing on NPTL, GCC 4, SELinux,
etc... after that. People will complain about Red Hat and Fedora, yet
will directly -- sometimes quite knowingly -- like their approach.
Other than that, you can get all of the same stuff. Fedora's
success
isn't predicated on Ubuntu's failure. Their mindshare gains, are not
necessarily at our expense.
And I disagree with this? I think you're confusing my posts with
someone else.
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance
mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
--------------------------------------------------------
Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution
9:29 a.m.
On Sun, 5 Aug 2007, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
Listen, all projects stand on the shoulders of giants. Most people
don't care. They care about marketing. I think Fedora should continue
to and keep doing what it does best, feed the leading edge developments.
This is what I liked about Red Hat Linux prior as well. The model is
very sound and very trusted to us "old dogs."
Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we should
be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential contributors. Fedora
needs to be more about contributors, and therefore making the lives of
contributors easier.
--g
--
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"
3:14 p.m.
Greg Dekoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we
should be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential
contributors. Fedora needs to be more about contributors, and
therefore making the lives of contributors easier.
Oh, just realized the obviousness of that truth! Man, even I got
"too focused" on solely "user base" before you pointed that out. ;)
BTW, I recently had an off-list e-mail and realized history was
partially repeating itself. I went back to my archives from 1999
and, especially, 2000-2003. Then I saw the same pattern.
- New off-shoot distro gains fan-fare, "better than Red Hat"
- New off-shoot distro offers major, commercial support
- Off-shoot distro strays too far from original, stable base
- Off-shoot distro as trouble maintaining updates, upgrades,
development after its 4th release and fork away from original, stable
base
- Off-shoot distro has lay-offs, drops several support offerings
- Off-shoot distro starts merging with other distro companies
Last time I checked recently, PCLinux OS is still "picking up the
pieces" of all that. ;)
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance
b.j.smith(a)ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
--------------------------------------------------
Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution
3:24 p.m.
New subject: How to compete against Ubuntu (Clarification)
"Bryan J. Smith" <thebs413(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Last time I checked recently, PCLinux OS is still "picking up
the
pieces" of all that. ;)
Okay, I had better clarify that ...
PCLinux OS has "taken over the home consumer mindshare" of that
other, allegedly, now former, "new, better than Red Hat" off-shoot
distro.
Greg hit it on the nose IMHO. There is a reason why Debian and
Fedora still get a lot of contributors. That's because that is their
focus. ;)
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance
b.j.smith(a)ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
--------------------------------------------------
Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution
3:47 p.m.
New subject: How to compete against Ubuntu (Clarification)
Bryan J. Smith wrote:
Greg hit it on the nose IMHO. There is a reason why Debian and
Fedora still get a lot of contributors. That's because that is their
focus. ;)
I'm glad you appreciate the focus. Amazed, but pleasantly surprised. I'm
often not looking back as much as anyone else may be; With Fedora moving
forward all the time that is a perfect fit.
But, as we all seem to agree, focus does it. Focus is good, and great
people with focus tend to do even greater things. I hope though this
focus in any number of days from now will be the same focus it has been
ever since I joined this world.
Focus may blur sometimes. It happens. Maybe because someone else is
doing better in some way or getting higher numbers somehow. Point is it
cannot or should not get us distracted.
If you spend your days helping cats [1], it's your hobby and you're
life's focus, would you rather pursue to convince the world to help cats
rather then dogs, or actually help cats? Would you care if the dog
helpers get to help more dogs then you get to help cats? Whether their
dogs have a better color scheme? Warmer fur?
Kind regards,
Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip
[1] Max Spevack's Blog - "on leadership and volunteer management"
http://spevack.livejournal.com/23189.html
12:05 a.m.
Greg Dekoenigsberg escribió:
Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we
should be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential
contributors. Fedora needs to be more about contributors, and
therefore making the lives of contributors easier.
--g
Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" for
contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is standard
bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that it is
difficult, just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the "others
are not so bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to the many
Fedora contributors and community members, but I've seen my share of
complaints from "would be" contributors about just that.
4:12 a.m.
New subject: Contributors
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" for
contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is standard
bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that it is
difficult, just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the "others
are not so bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to the many
Fedora contributors and community members, but I've seen my share of
complaints from "would be" contributors about just that.
So let's talk about that. In a different thread with more details but
let's talk about that.
Rahuk
11:24 p.m.
New subject: Contributors
Rahul Sundaram escribió:
Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>
>
> Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy"
> for contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is
> standard bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that
> it is difficult, just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the
> "others are not so bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to
> the many Fedora contributors and community members, but I've seen my
> share of complaints from "would be" contributors about just that.
So let's talk about that. In a different thread with more details but
let's talk about that.
Rahuk
Sorry to answer so late...
First of all, the most common issue among many packagers and would be
contributors is the amount of "requisites". I don't fully understand the
complaint as, yes, there are a number of requisites, but then again,
each distro has theirs. Another common issue seems to be the CLA, some
really see it as an evil requirement... like they'd be renouncing the
right to claim something their own (I certainly don't understand it that
way, but it could easily be misinterpreted in that way).
1:23 a.m.
New subject: Contributors
On Tue, 2007-08-07 at 23:24 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Another common issue seems to be the CLA, some
really see it as an evil requirement... like they'd be renouncing the
right to claim something their own (I certainly don't understand it that
way, but it could easily be misinterpreted in that way).
Have you read some others?
Like the Mozilla or OpenOffice.org ones?
Heck, one could say the same about the GPL!
There are licenses and agreements in the community software world.
They are everywhere on all software and contributions.
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance
mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
--------------------------------------------------------
Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution
2:57 a.m.
New subject: Contributors
Bryan J. Smith escribió:
Have you read some others?
Like the Mozilla or OpenOffice.org ones?
Heck, one could say the same about the GPL!
There are licenses and agreements in the community software world.
They are everywhere on all software and contributions.
As a matter of fact, I have not. I take your word for it. And yes, the
GPL might be seen as a "draconian" license for that very matter. I'm
just saying what I've seen, read and heard from people that do not wish
to become contributors. The two main "issues" seem to be:
* Excessive bureaucracy (I somewhat agree).
* CLA.
8:11 a.m.
New subject: Contributors
On Wed, 2007-08-08 at 02:57 -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
As a matter of fact, I have not. I take your word for it. And yes,
the
GPL might be seen as a "draconian" license for that very matter. I'm
just saying what I've seen, read and heard from people that do not wish
to become contributors. The two main "issues" seem to be:
* Excessive bureaucracy (I somewhat agree).
* CLA.
And I've been around Debian as a maintainer long enough to hear similar
complaints of its system. And part of Debian's system is a "Democracy"
as far as maintainers go, and I've seen the case where a good maintainer
was cut because someone else convinced everyone else he had to (when it
was a clear personally issue, not a project, but someone used the
project to further their personal issue).
The Debian Free Software and Packaging Guidelines also get complaints.
Everywhere you go, people will find things to disagree on. In all
honesty, if people are complaining about those two (2) on Fedora,
inviting them in might be futile, as they may just end up complaining
and leaving anyway. Seen that before too. ;)
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance
mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
--------------------------------------------------------
Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution
8:28 a.m.
On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Greg Dekoenigsberg escribió:
>
> Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we should
> be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential contributors. Fedora
> needs to be more about contributors, and therefore making the lives of
> contributors easier.
Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" for
contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is standard
bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that it is difficult,
just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the "others are not so
bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to the many Fedora
contributors and community members, but I've seen my share of complaints from
"would be" contributors about just that.
Anyone want to gather the specific complaints in that regard?
I know we're working on some issues -- improving the CLA, working on a new
account management system, other small things -- but knowing the pain
points of new contributors is always important.
--g
--
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"
11:20 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-marketing-list-bounces(a)redhat.com
[mailto:fedora-marketing-list-bounces@redhat.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Dekoenigsberg
Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2007 9:29 PM
To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base
Subject: Re: How to compete against Ubuntu
On Tue, 7 Aug 2007, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
Greg Dekoenigsberg escribió:
>
> Mostly I agree, but one note here: if there is one group to whom we
> should be more aggressively "marketing", it is to potential
> contributors. Fedora needs to be more about contributors, and
> therefore making the lives of contributors easier.
Couldn't agree more... Fedora seems to have too much "bureaucracy" for
contributors to, well, contribute. Some might say that it is standard
bureaucracy, but still quite cumbersome at times. Not that it is
difficult, just messy and cumbersome at times. I know that the "others
are not so bureaucratic" argument means nothing, at least to the many
Fedora contributors and community members, but I've seen my share of
complaints from "would be" contributors about just that.
Anyone want to gather the specific complaints in that regard?
I know we're working on some issues -- improving the CLA, working on a new
account management system, other small things -- but knowing the pain points
of new contributors is always important.
--g
I'll add some bits but put simply I know from my experience in trying to
package some things that documentation is the big one. Every time I package
something and let someone have a look at it I find that Im missing
something that isn't documented properly. Thats my biggest
frustration.....gnome-yum or yum-gnome scrollkeeper? Yet I can't find
anything relating to scrollkeeper and packages.
I know it's improving but that would be a start. One thing Debian does
really well is that it has a plethora of documentation on how to contribute
and everything relating to the packaging process.
I've got other questions as well but yeah while it doesn't relate directly
to bureaucracy I think it relates to contributing.
My $0.02
Marc
8:35 a.m.
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 09:28 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
However even some Ubuntu evangelists don't understand this.
As I said before, ignore the evangelical fanboys. ;)
I like the idea of spreading the word about fedora in the daily life
of all humans. Because I personally don't like windows users to
consider ubuntu = linux, as that would underrate fedora contributors'
contribution.
You mean like people used to (and still do) associate Red Hat =
Linux? ;) Sorry, had to point out the obvious.
But direct competition (which is good or which is bad) isn't the
right
way.
I wish Linux advocates and users of all distros would put it out of the
minds. Luckily most distribution contributors -- at least major, long
lasting ones -- do. Because distros all work together, and stand on the
shoulders of giants in the first place.
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 11:17 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limp here and say some stupid things;
Just maybe it's not about what others understand or how we could make
them understand "the Fedora way of life".
Do you think they will treat it any different than "the Red Hat way of
life" prior?
I mean, I still have fellow Gentoo, Ubuntu, etc... users complaining
about how "Red Hat Linux 5 broke everything" without stopping to
understand the whole reason for switching to GLibC 2. And that's just
the earliest one I can remember, there are plenty more popular ones that
came after that!
Ignore them. There are so many people talking about their "tragedies"
of Red Hat Linux 5.0, Red Hat Linux 7, Red Hat Linux 9.0, Fedora Core 2
and Fedora Core 4 because they didn't stop to realize, "hey, there's a
reason you don't always adopt 'the latest' if you want maximum
compatibility."
Just like I said, I'm going to say some stupid things here;
I'm not convinced Fedora as a distribution has added value for
end-users. I'm sure I haven't seen it all, but then again, consider that
an end-user hasn't either.
So? They go Ubuntu, which includes a commercial support option for home
consumers. At least those consumers are served for what they want to
pay for.
Sure it's neat and looks great and has this
huge pile of cutting-edge, stable software but that alone doesn't
distinguish Fedora in any particular way. Sure, it has also made,
(co-)developed and distributed items that one way or the other ended up
in other distributions as well.
A crapload, yes. But so have select other companies. No, no other
distributor has as much as Red Hat and its Fedora volunteers. But
consumers don't look at that anyway.
After all, just look at IBM. Most people assume IBM has contributed the
most GPL code because they spent $1B on Linux, and then another $100M on
Linux. It's part of the reason why many people outside of Linux
believed (at least initially) that SCO's contract lawsuit (I'm talking
the original March 2003 filing, not the subsequent expansion in May 2003
that caused Linus to change from calling it "a contract dispute" to
"SCO's on crack") with IBM was about IBM "finally making Linux
work."
The former $1B was largely to get their virtualization and iron working
(with a few notables, like Eclipse), the latter $100M was entirely to
port the whole Notes suite and system to Linux -- a 100% proprietary
application.
So forget reaching those people. They are beyond reach, or will always
see things in other ways even if you manage to sell them on some things
at one point.
Most of the added value for Fedora IMHO is in the background; As a
developer and "community member" -which always is a vague term- I value
so much that Fedora is like an engineer's playground. Fedora adapts new
technologies, embraces them and (co-)develops them; Fedora releases
whatever it used to use to make up and build Fedora to the community
instead of having a limited number of key persons maintain it -the
core/extras merge is an example of that. There's other principle matters
that make the Fedora way of life my way of life -at least whenever I'm
behind a keyboard.
The Fedora Project is the former Red Hat Linux community done right.
Strategically controlled by Red Hat, but completely opened up
development and release. Red Hat Linux was always the "engineer's
playground" in many aspects (especially for ".0" releases), and relied
on extensive community contribution. Now with Fedora, it's formalized
and executed by the community -- with its strategic aspects still
controlled by Red Hat.
Just consider it may be in the background too much for anyone
installing
Fedora and navigating the desktop. If you consider that, I'll ask you again:
>From the end-user perspective, what is the added value of Fedora?
I see your point, and I agree with it. At the same time, I'm not worried.
Should we make as much effort to convince anyone Fedora has added
value
you don't necessarily immediately learn to appreciate as soon as you see
GDM pop up or navigate the menus? Can we state this in a way that makes
end-users appreciate it, and then not only appreciate it, but also adopt
Fedora instead of any other distribution?
Most people won't realize what Fedora is until it's gone. But it won't
be gone anytime soon, not with the funds Red Hat puts into it for its
own endeavors. Which, unlike Ubuntu, have significantly higher profit
margains, which allows Red Hat to employ so many GPL developers.
So let Ubuntu have its focus, mindshare, etc... with consumers. If
anything, Windows is a testament to the fact that _consumers_ should
_not_ control core aspects of design in the OS -- especially "consumer
attitudes" that then infiltrate _critical_ services. Hence why Red Hat
and the Greater Fedora project fills this aspect quite nicely. ;)
BTW, /please/ don't make this a thread about how wrong I am or
what I'm
missing here ;-) Although you may virtually kick me in the teeth about
whatever you think it is I'm absolutely wrong about, it's not what the
thread is about... yet.
No, I know exactly what you are saying. And you are correct.
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance
mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
--------------------------------------------------------
Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution
1:39 p.m.
Markus McLaughlin wrote:
How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1
If each of us chip in on a small AD in the New York Times, The Boston
Globe, and The Washington Post, with the Line : "What can Fedora do for
you? http://fedoraproject.org" in blue bryant2 font lettering, more and
more regular folks and frustrated Windoze Users will go there and find
out how to download it. Also, where to purchase a Live CD or
Installation DVD is also posted. It is very important to get MORE
exposure so Ubuntu will want to compete on that level too. Save Our
Fedora From Ubuntu!!!
Mark McLaughlin - linuxglobe.wordpress.com <http://linuxglobe.wordpress.com>
Mark,
As I tried to explain to you on IRC I am of the opinion that you are
going about this wrong.
Robert 'Bob' Jensen
1:46 p.m.
Markus McLaughlin <hudsonman35(a)gmail.com> wrote:
How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1
... cut ...
It is very important to get MORE exposure so Ubuntu will
want to compete on that level too.
As I've stated before ...
I left the commerceware, let alone hostageware, world because of
stuff like this. I really don't care for it in the freedomware
world. ;)
There is a difference between "marketing and expanding" the Fedora
user base and marketing "against" software.
Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip(a)kanarip.com> wrote:
It's not about who gets the bigger userbase.
It's not about who gets the most users off Windows.
It's not about who gets the most exposure.
Oh so true.
Markus McLaughlin <hudsonman35(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Save Our Fedora From Ubuntu!!!
Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip(a)kanarip.com> wrote:
And Fedora is not getting killed by Ubuntu either.
I honestly don't think Mr. McLaughlin just realizes what he said
(regardless of whether it is true or not).
Furthermore, clearly playing devil's advocate, there is no reason to
"save" any distro against another. Distros will be adopted or not
adopted on their merits and/or usefulness for users and
organizations.
I use Fedora.
I use Gentoo.
I use Xubuntu.
Not losing any sleep over any distro that needs "saving" or marketing
"against" any other.
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance
b.j.smith(a)ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
--------------------------------------------------
Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution
1:42 a.m.
Markus McLaughlin wrote:
How to take on Ubuntu - Idea #1
I am also somewhat feed-up with Ubuntu fanboys on a lot of forums and
the web filled with brown screenshots.
But my may to deal with it is to show how useful is Fedora for *me* and
how proud I am in using it. I put online *a lot* of content (like
http://howto.nicubunu.ro/) created using Fedora and showing a Fedora
look and feel as close as possible to the default.
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
1:51 a.m.
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 09:42 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote:
I am also somewhat feed-up with Ubuntu fanboys on a lot of forums and
the web filled with brown screenshots.
Every distro has its fanboys, and many not only go overboard, but start
stating technical specifics that are just dead wrong.
There's nothing more frustrating than trying to explain to an ignorant
"source build system" distro fanboy the difference between ISA
extensions and ISA optimizations when it comes to performance. And I'm
a huge fan of that "source build system" distro myself (and even share
publication credits with its creator).
The key is to ignore them. Every distro has them, even Fedora. Heck,
one day they praise you, the next day they criticize you. I'd just
rather they not be so "manic-depressive" in the first place. ;)
But my may to deal with it is to show how useful is Fedora for *me*
and
how proud I am in using it. I put online *a lot* of content (like
http://howto.nicubunu.ro/) created using Fedora and showing a Fedora
look and feel as close as possible to the default.
Helping others work and get things done is the key. Everything else is
subjective marketing. As I mentioned before, I've had enough of that in
the commerceware and hostageware world. ;)
Glad to see you are putting some things down on how you work. That's
always a great thing. In fact, and more selfishly, do you have anything
on RAW conversion tools (DCRAW/UFRAW), CinePaint and its HDR
plug-in? ;)
--
Bryan J. Smith Professional, Technical Annoyance
mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com
--------------------------------------------------------
Fission Power: An Inconvenient Solution
1:57 a.m.
Bryan J. Smith wrote:
Glad to see you are putting some things down on how you work. That's
always a great thing. In fact, and more selfishly, do you have anything
on RAW conversion tools (DCRAW/UFRAW), CinePaint and its HDR
plug-in? ;)
Sorry, no ;) I still have to buy myself a DSLR, it was on the agenda but
I postponed it, so I am quite a newbie in that area.
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
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marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
29 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
Bryan J. Smith -
Bryan Smith -
Chitlesh GOORAH -
Gain Paolo Mureddu -
Greg DeKoenigsberg -
H. Guémar -
Jeremy Hogan -
Jeroen van Meeuwen -
Marc Wiriadisastra -
Markus McLaughlin -
Nicu Buculei -
Rahul Sundaram -
Robert 'Bob' Jensen