Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?

Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.

It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?

--g

-- 
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

[Máirín Duffy]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  
>  Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
>  long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
>  participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>  
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think? 
Wow, I really like it... It succinctly points out how we are different 
from other distros, and I think our defining characteristic.... the 
alliteration is nice too :)

~m

[Robert 'Bob' Jensen]

Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> >
> > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> >
> > Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
> > long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
> > participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> >
> > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
>  
>  Wow, I really like it... It succinctly points out how we are different 
>  from other distros, and I think our defining characteristic.... the 
>  alliteration is nice too :)
>  
>  ~m
>   
Yeah that pretty much hits the nail on the head IMO.

Robert 'Bob' Jensen
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen
Fedora Unity Project
http://fedoraunity.org/

[Nayyar Ahmad]

+1

On 10/5/07, Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  >
>  > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  >
>  > Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too
>  > long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience
>  > participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>  >
>  > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks
>  think?
>
>  Wow, I really like it... It succinctly points out how we are different
>  from other distros, and I think our defining characteristic.... the
>  alliteration is nice too :)
>
>  ~m
>
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>  


-- 
Nayyar Ahmad
RHCE (ID:804006858622745)
Skype: nayyares
Blog: nayyares.blogspot.com

[Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  
>  Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too
>  long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience
>  participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>  
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think? 
Awesomeness has never been so succinctly short (and Luis says he's a
lawyer now ? ;) )


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFHBkKtXQZpNTcrCzMRAn9oAJ0VGpK3og94eVSPWlz+dtmN3YWMhQCgpFWO
> JaDsyjxD8V4hU9TiD31F/jY=
> =JSrR
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  
>  Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too
>  long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience
>  participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>  
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
>  
>  --g
>   
I'm loving it. We could then also add to the fedora-release RPM:

Provides: Freedom

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFHBkM6KN6f2pNCvwgRAif4AKCE2o8MwZE8y8iwaOKLEjILA1u5zgCeMl8L
> 09UwM9ktRqOAcvKNoxWj6Xg=
> =NzE+
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Rahul Sundaram]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  
>  Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
>  long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
>  participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>  
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think? 
So who is updating the website now? ;-)

Rahul

[Máirín Duffy]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> >
> > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> >
> > Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
> > long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
> > participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> >
> > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
>  
>  So who is updating the website now? ;-) 
Well...

Is it okay to have a release-specific slogan and then an overall slogan?

~m

[Rahul Sundaram]

Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> >>
> >> What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> >>
> >> Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not 
> >> too long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the 
> >> audience participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> >>
> >> It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks 
> >> think?
> >
> > So who is updating the website now? ;-)
>  
>  Well...
>  
>  Is it okay to have a release-specific slogan and then an overall slogan? 
Yes as long as we somehow make it clear which one is what.

Rahul

[Máirín Duffy]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Yes as long as we somehow make it clear which one is what. 
Well...

http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom.png

whatcha think

~m

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Máirín Duffy wrote:

>  Well...
>
>  http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom.png
>
>  whatcha think 
Yep.

I don't think I've ever seen this list agree so quickly on *anything*.

Let's let it bake for a little while longer, but I think that very soon 
we're going to be pimping this as "The Fedora Message".  Which probably 
means collateral, refocusing the talking points, etc., etc.

--g

-- 
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

[Paul Stauffer]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 10:27:14AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom.png
>  whatcha think 
Looks pretty good in conjunction with the logo.

A little bit of a tangent:  If the Project adopts an official slogan like
this that we intend to use on an ongoing basis as a distinguishing
identifier, it might be a good idea to clearly indicate it as a trademark. 
I don't know what all the requirements are for doing that... like, would we
need to stick a little "TM" next to it all the time, or just indicate in the
small print somewhere something like, "'Fedora', 'Fedora Project',
the funny
little speech balloon logo, and 'Freedom is a Feature' are trademarks of the
Fedora Project".  Aside from the possible legal reasons for doing this,
clearly distinguishing it as a trademark would emphasize that it is the
slogan of the Project itself, and not just a catch-phrase for whatever the
release of the moment is.

Just a thought...
- Paul

-- 
Paul Stauffer <paulds(a)bu.edu&gt;
Manager of Research Computing
Computer Science Department
Boston University

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Paul Stauffer wrote:

>  A little bit of a tangent:  If the Project adopts an official slogan
> like
>  this that we intend to use on an ongoing basis as a distinguishing
>  identifier, it might be a good idea to clearly indicate it as a trademark.
>  I don't know what all the requirements are for doing that... like, would we
>  need to stick a little "TM" next to it all the time, or just indicate in the
>  small print somewhere something like, "'Fedora', 'Fedora Project',
> the funny
>  little speech balloon logo, and 'Freedom is a Feature' are trademarks of the
>  Fedora Project".  Aside from the possible legal reasons for doing this,
>  clearly distinguishing it as a trademark would emphasize that it is the
>  slogan of the Project itself, and not just a catch-phrase for whatever the
>  release of the moment is. 
*blink blink*

"Freedom is a Feature" is a trademark of The Fedora Project and Red Hat, 
Inc.  Use of the words "Freedom is a Feature" without express written 
consent is strictly prohibited by U.S. and International Law.

Um, I don't think that would look great on Slashdot.

I'd much rather mount a big campaign after the fact that says 
"$BIGSCARYENTITY stole that line from Fedora."

--g

-- 
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

[Nicu Buculei]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  "Freedom is a Feature" is a trademark of The Fedora Project
> and Red Hat, 
>  Inc.  Use of the words "Freedom is a Feature" without express written 
>  consent is strictly prohibited by U.S. and International Law.
>  
>  Um, I don't think that would look great on Slashdot.
>  
>  I'd much rather mount a big campaign after the fact that says 
>  "$BIGSCARYENTITY stole that line from Fedora." 
What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for the 
first time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put quietly 
a new banner on the site.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Nicu Buculei wrote:

>  Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> > "Freedom is a Feature" is a trademark of The Fedora Project and Red Hat, 
> > Inc.  Use of the words "Freedom is a Feature" without express written 
> > consent is strictly prohibited by U.S. and International Law.
> > 
> > Um, I don't think that would look great on Slashdot.
> > 
> > I'd much rather mount a big campaign after the fact that says 
> > "$BIGSCARYENTITY stole that line from Fedora."
>
>  What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for the first 
>  time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put quietly a new 
>  banner on the site. 
Yep.  I agree 100%.

--g

-- 
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

[Chris Negus]

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 11:37 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Nicu Buculei wrote:
>  > What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for the
> first 
>  > time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put quietly a new 
>  > banner on the site.
>  
>  Yep.  I agree 100%. 
I like the slogan very much. If you could decide very soon to use this
slogan, I could mention it on the back cover of the Fedora 8 Bible. But
it's getting late to make a splash with the slogan in print media by the
Fedora 8 release if you wait much longer.

-- Chris Negus

[Máirín Duffy]

Nicu Buculei wrote:
>  What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the
> slogan for the 
>  first time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put quietly 
>  a new banner on the site. 
any ideas on how to promote it?

this is kind of what i was thinking altho, heh, i was too lazy to gimp 
the photo up to make it more suitable for the text otherwise it'd be 
bigger and positioned a bit more nicely:

http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom-slogan.png

Photo is 'Explosion of Light Across the Sky' by Dean Souglass and is CC 
Attribution 2.0: http://www.flickr.com/photos/deansouglass/1111243853/

(another one that looked nice to use, 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/75325073@N00/1100273086)

~m

[Nicu Buculei]

Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  Nicu Buculei wrote:
> > What we should to to "protect": when we go live with the slogan for 
> > the first time we should do *a lot* of noise about it, not just put 
> > quietly a new banner on the site.
>  
>  any ideas on how to promote it? 
I have a large-scale idea: set up a place and invite people to submit 
there creation illustrating *their own* vision about freedom: photos, 
drawings, 3D art, poetry, short prose, music, video clips, animations, 
clay models, paintings... anything.

As an example, *for me* the best illustration is an image with large 
empty spaces in the wilderness, for someone else could be the sea, 
people gathered at a rock concert and so on.

>  this is kind of what i was thinking altho, heh, i was too lazy to
> gimp 
>  the photo up to make it more suitable for the text otherwise it'd be 
>  bigger and positioned a bit more nicely:
>  
>  http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/freedom-slogan.png 
As a simple implementation I see this possibility: write the text 
"freedom is a feature" using the Fedora font and the Fedora blue for the 
"freedom" and "feature" words (not for "is a") but without
actually 
using the "fedora" word anywhere, let people to the connection by 
themselves.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Paul Stauffer]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 10:54:12AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  "Freedom is a Feature" is a trademark of The Fedora Project
> and Red Hat, 
>  Inc.  Use of the words "Freedom is a Feature" without express written 
>  consent is strictly prohibited by U.S. and International Law.
>  
>  Um, I don't think that would look great on Slashdot. 
Yeah?  I'm not saying we try to make a big deal about it or anything.  You
think someone else would?  Why?  I mean, the logo is a trademark too, right? 
Why would an official slogan that would be frequently used in connection
with the logo be any different?  Don't any of the other distributions have
trademark slogans?  Or are you just remarking on the perceived irony of a
phrase containing the word "freedom" being considered a form of intellectual
property?

If we really do want to have some sort of recognizable pithy slogan that
people will mentally associate with Fedora, then that slogan will clearly be
a key part of Fedora's brand identity.  That's what trademarks *are*.  I
don't see any reason to intentionally ignore that.

- Paul

-- 
Paul Stauffer <paulds(a)bu.edu&gt;
Manager of Research Computing
Computer Science Department
Boston University

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Paul Stauffer wrote:

>  Or are you just remarking on the perceived irony of a phrase
> containing 
>  the word "freedom" being considered a form of intellectual property? 
This point exactly.  With other slogans, I'd be less concerned.  With this 
slogan, the idea of protecting the mark gives me some pretty serious 
heartburn.

>  If we really do want to have some sort of recognizable pithy slogan
> that 
>  people will mentally associate with Fedora, then that slogan will 
>  clearly be a key part of Fedora's brand identity.  That's what 
>  trademarks *are*.  I don't see any reason to intentionally ignore that. 
Ordinarily, I'd agree with you.  In this *particular* instance, I don't. 
Yet.  I could be persuaded.

--g

-- 
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 11:46:57AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  >Or are you just remarking on the perceived irony of a phrase
> containing 
>  >the word "freedom" being considered a form of intellectual property?
>  This point exactly.  With other slogans, I'd be less concerned.  With this 
>  slogan, the idea of protecting the mark gives me some pretty serious 
>  heartburn. 
Maybe we could leave off the TM but include somewhere some lighthearted fine
print about it being a trademark irony notwithstanding and we know that
sounds silly but hey, gotta use the law to protect freedom too. I'm too
tired to be really witty right now but maybe someone else can pick up from
there. :)





-- 
Matthew Miller           mattdm(a)mattdm.org          <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux      ------>              <http://linux.bu.edu/>

[Máirín Duffy]

Matthew Miller wrote:
>  On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 11:46:57AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> >> Or are you just remarking on the perceived irony of a phrase containing 
> >> the word "freedom" being considered a form of intellectual property?
> > This point exactly.  With other slogans, I'd be less concerned.  With this 
> > slogan, the idea of protecting the mark gives me some pretty serious 
> > heartburn.
>  
>  Maybe we could leave off the TM but include somewhere some lighthearted fine
>  print about it being a trademark irony notwithstanding and we know that
>  sounds silly but hey, gotta use the law to protect freedom too. I'm too
>  tired to be really witty right now but maybe someone else can pick up from
>  there. :) 
while the slogan is a pretty nice statement of a defining quality of 
fedora - omfg will the world end if someone else uses it?

e.g., if $DISTRO starts using it AND actually backs it by you know, not 
shipping patent-infringing codecs in their distro... well isn't that 
what we WANT? you know, others to follow our lead? and, if they pick up 
the slogan and continue to produce a not entirely free distro, well they 
just look stupid then! :)

~m

[Paul Stauffer]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 12:08:55PM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  while the slogan is a pretty nice statement of a defining quality of
>
>  fedora - omfg will the world end if someone else uses it?
>  
>  e.g., if $DISTRO starts using it AND actually backs it by you know, not 
>  shipping patent-infringing codecs in their distro... well isn't that 
>  what we WANT? you know, others to follow our lead? and, if they pick up 
>  the slogan and continue to produce a not entirely free distro, well they 
>  just look stupid then! :) 
I guess my initial comment regarding trademark was spurred by seeing the
phrase used in conjunction with the logo in your mock-up, Mo.  It looked
really good.  They looked like they *belonged* together.  I instantly
foresaw them being linked together in a myriad of contexts all over the
Fedora multiverse.  In such a scenario, where the slogan and the logo are
closely linked, it felt natural that the phrase would be serving a very
similar role to that of the logo itself, and thus they should be treated
similarly.

That was my leap in thinking.  It doesn't necessarily need to be done that
way.  If we continue to use only the logo in a really trademarky way, and we
just throw this phrase around as a marketing slogan wherever it feels like
it fits, then I agree that it needn't be treated as a trademark any more
than any other catch phrases we repeatedly say in our Fedora evangelism. 
But if we do end up using it closely linked with the logo, and we're using
it as a mark of Fedora's identity, then yeah, I think it needs to be treated
as such.

For now, I think it's safe to set the issue a bit to the side, and wait and
see how and if we actually end up using the thing.  But we should maybe at
least make a mental note of when we're using it in conjunction with identity
marks such as the logo, and if it seems like we're doing that more often
than not, I think it's something we should readdress.

cheers,
- Paul

-- 
Paul Stauffer <paulds(a)bu.edu&gt;
Manager of Research Computing
Computer Science Department
Boston University

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Paul Stauffer wrote:

>  I guess my initial comment regarding trademark was spurred by seeing
> the
>  phrase used in conjunction with the logo in your mock-up, Mo.  It looked
>  really good.  They looked like they *belonged* together.  I instantly
>  foresaw them being linked together in a myriad of contexts all over the
>  Fedora multiverse.  In such a scenario, where the slogan and the logo are
>  closely linked, it felt natural that the phrase would be serving a very
>  similar role to that of the logo itself, and thus they should be treated
>  similarly. 
Hmm.

This is a good point, actually.  One of the nice things about trademark 
protection is that you can protect "elements grouped together in a certain 
way" without having to protect the individual elements themselves.

But yes -- worth more thinking after we all agree that "Freedom is a 
Feature" is the right slogan.  Which, evidently, we do.

--g

-- 
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Matthew Miller wrote:

>  Maybe we could leave off the TM but include somewhere some
> lighthearted 
>  fine print about it being a trademark irony notwithstanding and we know 
>  that sounds silly but hey, gotta use the law to protect freedom too. I'm 
>  too tired to be really witty right now but maybe someone else can pick 
>  up from there. :) 
Maybe.

Let me be honest about another motivation: my suspicions about the general 
usefulness of "protecting the marks" of open source projects.

I admire the Debian practice of having some marks that are fiercely 
protected, and other marks that are completely open.  The Debian swirl is 
completely open; the Debian swirl atop the genie bottle is fiercely 
protected.  Which has allowed the open Debian mark to proliferate.

I'd hoped to get this kind of agreement with Red Hat legal in regards to 
the Fedora mark -- i.e. create an open Fedora mark that anyone could use 
in any way they wished -- but was unsuccessful.

As a consequence, Fedora must now take a very aggressive stance on mark 
usage, which takes up legal time and resources that could, IMHO, be *much* 
better spent elsewhere.  It also leads to long and confusing Board-level 
discussions about "who is entitled to use the Fedora mark and when," in 
all kinds of areas: respins, derivative works, ambassador collateral, 
etc., etc.

There are some pretty long and protracted debates about The Value of Marks 
to the open source community.  The OSI's aggressive enforcement of their 
Open Source mark certainly hasn't prevented the Enemies of Open Source 
from co-opting and confusing the Open Source mark, for instance.

--g

-- 
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

[Rahul Sundaram]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Matthew Miller wrote:
>  
> > Maybe we could leave off the TM but include somewhere some 
> > lighthearted fine print about it being a trademark irony 
> > notwithstanding and we know that sounds silly but hey, gotta use the 
> > law to protect freedom too. I'm too tired to be really witty right now 
> > but maybe someone else can pick up from there. :)
>  
>  Maybe.
>  
>  Let me be honest about another motivation: my suspicions about the 
>  general usefulness of "protecting the marks" of open source projects.
>  
>  I admire the Debian practice of having some marks that are fiercely 
>  protected, and other marks that are completely open.  The Debian swirl 
>  is completely open; the Debian swirl atop the genie bottle is fiercely 
>  protected.  Which has allowed the open Debian mark to proliferate.
>  
>  I'd hoped to get this kind of agreement with Red Hat legal in regards to 
>  the Fedora mark -- i.e. create an open Fedora mark that anyone could use 
>  in any way they wished -- but was unsuccessful. 
The mascot is a way to accomplish that without a second logo IMO. Worth 
considering.

Rahul

[Saadaldine AlSaidi]

Very Impressive but i think many better slogens were provided.
Yet it is catshy in English and my mother language Arabic, but i don't know if 
it is going to be in other languages.


---------------------------------------
Saadaldine AlSaidi.

[Saadaldine AlSaidi]

I guess Freedom in fedora is not just a feature its the core and putting it as 
a feature really reduce the whole idea. maybe we can say "Fedora: Freedom is 
the essence" or "Fedora: where Freedom is the essence"

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 03:05:50AM +0300, Saadaldine AlSaidi wrote:
>  I guess Freedom in fedora is not just a feature its the core and
> putting
>  it as a feature really reduce the whole idea. maybe we can say "Fedora:
>  Freedom is the essence" or "Fedora: where Freedom is the essence" 
This is a very legitimate point. A feature is something prominent but not
necessarily eanything vital.

Consider:

   Fedora 8 Feature List
     Online Desktop
     Bluetooth
     Build ID
     Codec Buddy
     Eclipse33
     Electronic Lab
     Freedom
     Generic Logos
     IcedTea
     Nepali Language Support
     Nodoka Theme
     PAM Console (remove it)
     Policy Kit
     Pulse Audio
     rsyslog
     Tickless Kernel
     Transifex
     Virt Security
     Wakeups (fix them)
     XFS (no more)


There's a risk of "Freedom: It's In There With The Other Bells And
Whistles." Or worse, "Freedom: A Feature Sort Of Like SELinux, Which
Everybody Turns Off When It Comes Time To Do Anything Useful."

But "Freedom is the Essence" doesn't have the same resonance.

And "Freedom: Not Just a Feature!" takes too much thinking to be a good
slogan.


-- 
Matthew Miller           mattdm(a)mattdm.org          <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux      ------>              <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Máirín Duffy]

Matthew Miller wrote:
>  On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 03:05:50AM +0300, Saadaldine AlSaidi wrote:
> > I guess Freedom in fedora is not just a feature its the core and putting
> > it as a feature really reduce the whole idea. maybe we can say "Fedora:
> > Freedom is the essence" or "Fedora: where Freedom is the essence"
>  
>  This is a very legitimate point. A feature is something prominent but not
>  necessarily eanything vital. 
While I see where you could interpret the phrase that way, I was 
thinking it was more:

"Freedom is feature of Fedora. It's not a feature in all other distros. 
It's what makes us different."

Was there any argument against Karsten's variation of:

"Fedora is freedom" ?

~m

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 12:34:41AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  Was there any argument against Karsten's variation of:
>  "Fedora is freedom" ? 
I think the original has such an immediate positive reaction for readers of
this list -- and I think for most of Fedora's core market, as well --
precisely because we hear it in the sense of computer jargon. It's the
perfect response to people who think giving up that freedom will somehow
make Fedora better.

On the other hand, "_____ is freedom" is too generic -- it's so overused as
to be meaningless. The Jeep Grand Cherokee is freedom. Nike is freedom.
British Telecom is freedom. A handgun is freedom. Medication is freedom.
Rock and roll is freedom. Truth is freedom. Education is freedom. Feminine
hygine products are freedom.

-- 
Matthew Miller           mattdm(a)mattdm.org          <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux      ------>              <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Máirín Duffy]

Matthew Miller wrote:
>  On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 12:34:41AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > Was there any argument against Karsten's variation of:
> > "Fedora is freedom" ?
>  
>  I think the original has such an immediate positive reaction for readers of
>  this list -- and I think for most of Fedora's core market, as well --
>  precisely because we hear it in the sense of computer jargon. It's the
>  perfect response to people who think giving up that freedom will somehow
>  make Fedora better. 
I don't really see the word "feature" as computer jargon.

People's faces have features. My stove, refrigerator, and dishwasher 
have features. My car has features.  Movies have featured actors and 
actresses, and the main show is considered the 'feature'.

Is it just a translation issue?

~m

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Michael Beckwith]

Personally, i find such a debate to be a good thing overall. We get down to
the core of the issue. I think I support the "Freedom is a Feature" slogan
but there are also some good arguments against it/

On 10/6/07, Máirín Duffy <duffy(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  Matthew Miller wrote:
>  > On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 12:34:41AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  >> Was there any argument against Karsten's variation of:
>  >> "Fedora is freedom" ?
>  >
>  > I think the original has such an immediate positive reaction for readers
>  of
>  > this list -- and I think for most of Fedora's core market, as well --
>  > precisely because we hear it in the sense of computer jargon. It's the
>  > perfect response to people who think giving up that freedom will somehow
>  > make Fedora better.
>
>  I don't really see the word "feature" as computer jargon.
>
>  People's faces have features. My stove, refrigerator, and dishwasher
>  have features. My car has features.  Movies have featured actors and
>  actresses, and the main show is considered the 'feature'.
>
>  Is it just a translation issue?
>
>  ~m
>
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>  


-- 
~Michael
http://ridleytx.structed.net (for now)
http://www.michaelbox.net (eventually)

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 01:05:02AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>  I don't really see the word "feature" as computer
> jargon.
>  People's faces have features. My stove, refrigerator, and dishwasher 
>  have features. My car has features.  Movies have featured actors and 
>  actresses, and the main show is considered the 'feature'.
>  Is it just a translation issue? 
It's certainly *also* a non-jargon word, but it also has additional layers
of meaning for software. For example, from ESR's Jargon File:

  There's a related joke that is sometimes referred to as the "one-question
  geek test". You say to someone "I saw a Volkswagen Beetle today with a
  vanity license plate that read FEATURE". If he/she laughs, he/she is a
  geek.

The fact that this makes for a "test" is an indication that there is some
special meaning. And I think it's particularly that special meaning in the
slogan that's resonating with people.

-- 
Matthew Miller           mattdm(a)mattdm.org          <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux      ------>              <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Matthew Miller a écrit :
>  On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 12:34:41AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > Was there any argument against Karsten's variation of:
> > "Fedora is freedom" ?
>  
>  I think the original has such an immediate positive reaction for readers of
>  this list  
Right

-- and I think for most of Fedora's core market, as well --

Wrong

>  precisely because we hear it in the sense of computer jargon. 
You've nailed it, this is a slogan for english computer jargon speakers. 
In other words a slogan for hardcore technophiles. I don't think we want 
to restrict our audience to hardcore technophiles (at least one of our 
major derivatives, OLPC, doesn't)

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 11:28:23AM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>  Right
>  -- and I think for most of Fedora's core market, as well --
>  Wrong 

Note not *total* market.

>  >precisely because we hear it in the sense of computer jargon.
>  You've nailed it, this is a slogan for english computer jargon speakers. 
>  In other words a slogan for hardcore technophiles. I don't think we want 
>  to restrict our audience to hardcore technophiles (at least one of our 
>  major derivatives, OLPC, doesn't) 
The English-language/translation thing is a bit troubling. But I'm pretty
comfortable with saying that Fedora's *core* market is technophiles. If we
want it to be something else, we need to change some of Fedora's key design
decisions -- particularly, the upgrade-yearly lifespan.


-- 
Matthew Miller           mattdm(a)mattdm.org          <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux      ------>              <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Jesse Keating]

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:28:23 +0200
Nicolas Mailhot <nicolas.mailhot(a)laposte.net&gt; wrote:

>  You've nailed it, this is a slogan for english computer jargon
>  speakers. In other words a slogan for hardcore technophiles. I don't
>  think we want to restrict our audience to hardcore technophiles (at
>  least one of our major derivatives, OLPC, doesn't) 

I think it's going to be nearly impossible to come up with one slogan
that works across the world and isn't so completely generalized and/or
incomprehensible (make up your own words) to make any kind of impact to
anybody in any language.

So again I ask, what is so terrible if English printed stuff uses
'Freedom is a Feature' and things printed in other languages use a
slogan that is suitable for that language?  I would hope and expect
that the English speaking constituents wouldn't block a slogan in
another language just because it may translate poorly to English, so I
expect the return.

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Jeremy Hogan]

Interesting point. I didn't read it as "just a" feature. I read it more
like
"Fedora, Featuring Freedom", like freedom was being featured or highlighted
as a special ingredient. I think it may suffer the nuances of English, but
that may only mean having a different wording with the same sentiment in
other languages.

--jeremy

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Kamisamanou Burgess]

I personally consider "Feature" and "Freedom" in the same sentence to
be
extremely corny. I'd also say I find it a large understatement. The entire
focus of the Fedora Project is Freedom, and to call that a feature just
isn't right.

-- 
Sayonara,
Kamisamanou Burgess
http://www.kamisamanou.net

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Michael Beckwith]

How about "Freedom is our Focus"

On 10/6/07, Kamisamanou Burgess <kamisamanou(a)kamisamanou.net&gt; wrote:
>  I personally consider "Feature" and "Freedom" in the same sentence to
> be
>  extremely corny. I'd also say I find it a large understatement. The entire
>  focus of the Fedora Project is Freedom, and to call that a feature just
>  isn't right.
>
>  --
>  Sayonara,
>  Kamisamanou Burgess
>  http://www.kamisamanou.net
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>  


-- 
~Michael
http://ridleytx.structed.net (for now)
http://www.michaelbox.net (eventually)

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Oh, hell since everyone is giving his slogans. Mine are

Exploring freedom together
or
Building freedom together

So now you can tell me they're bad too ;)

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 01:13:15PM -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote:
>  Interesting point. I didn't read it as "just a"
> feature. I read it more like
>  "Fedora, Featuring Freedom", like freedom was being featured or highlighted
>  as a special ingredient. I think it may suffer the nuances of English, but
>  that may only mean having a different wording with the same sentiment in
>  other languages. 
One implication is: Featuring freedom today, featuring something else
tomorrow. Like a feature at the movies. :)

-- 
Matthew Miller           mattdm(a)mattdm.org          <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux      ------>              <http://linux.bu.edu/>

Freedom is *just* a Feature?

[Matthew Miller]

On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 10:34:52AM -0400, jkeating wrote:
>  So again I ask, what is so terrible if English printed stuff uses
>  'Freedom is a Feature' and things printed in other languages use a
>  slogan that is suitable for that language?  I would hope and expect 
And actually, it doesn't translate badly into other languages, or badly into
non-jargon English. It just loses the kick.

-- 
Matthew Miller           mattdm(a)mattdm.org          <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux      ------>              <http://linux.bu.edu/>

[Jeremy Hogan]

Hrmm. That's pretty good. +1

--jeremy

On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>
>  Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too
>  long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience
>  participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
>
>  --g
>
>  --
>  Greg DeKoenigsberg
>  Community Development Manager
>  Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
>  "To whomsoever much hath been given...
>  ...from him much shall be asked"
>
>  --
>  Fedora-marketing-list mailing list
>  Fedora-marketing-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
>

[Jesse Keating]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

>  Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not
>  too long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the
>  audience participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>  
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks
>  think? 
I think it's pretty awesome for a project wide slogan.

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)

[Sudheer]

I love the slogan. I am talking about Fedora in an GNU/Linux training 
event on 13 Oct, 07 conducted by ITPF, Banglaore, India. Inspired by 
this slogan, I got new ideas to talk about in the event.

jkeating wrote:
>  On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
>  Greg DeKoenigsberg <gdk(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>
>    
> > Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not
> > too long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the
> > audience participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
> >
> > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks
> > think?
> >     
>
>  I think it's pretty awesome for a project wide slogan.
>
>     

-- 
With Warm Regards,
Sudheer. S
http://www.binaryvibes.co.in

[Dimitris Glezos]

Στις 05-10-2007, ημέρα Παρ, και ώρα 09:43 -0400, ο/η Greg DeKoenigsberg
έγραψε:
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  
>  Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
>  long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
>  participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>  
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think? 
Simple, focused. Very nice slogan.

Maybe a bit more difficult to be translated than the current one
("Infinity. Freedom. Voice.").

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/


"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Dimitris Glezos a écrit :

>  Simple, focused. Very nice slogan.
>  
>  Maybe a bit more difficult to be translated than the current one
>  ("Infinity. Freedom. Voice."). 
I was about to make this point too.
I love "Freedom is a Feature" – in English.
But I haven't the faintest idea how to translate it in a satisfactory 
manner in my own language.

The problem is that while "Freedom" is a well-established universal 
concept, "feature" is obscure CS-marketoïd speak.

While some languages like English have reused nice pre-existing words 
for the "CS feature" concept, others use terribly contrived bureaucratic 
words, and I suspect some do not even have any local word for "feature". 
It's just not important enough for the vast majority of world's 
population to justify wording. It's 100% CS jargon speak.

[Karsten Wade]

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 18:58 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:

>  While some languages like English have reused nice pre-existing words
>
>  for the "CS feature" concept, others use terribly contrived bureaucratic 
>  words, and I suspect some do not even have any local word for "feature". 
>  It's just not important enough for the vast majority of world's 
>  population to justify wording. It's 100% CS jargon speak. 
Not really ... the word 'feature' used in this way is pretty old.

        "A feature of Arts & Crafts bungalows is the large front porch
        with wide supporting columns."
        
        "A feature of your face is your nose."

Thus, the term is used to describe a thing that comes as part of a
complete set (house, face) and adds some unique characteristic (porch
and columns, nose).

Perhaps there is a word or term that is more similar to that meaning?

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr.
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 18:58 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>  
> > While some languages like English have reused nice pre-existing words 
> > for the "CS feature" concept, others use terribly contrived bureaucratic 
> > words, and I suspect some do not even have any local word for "feature". 
> > It's just not important enough for the vast majority of world's 
> > population to justify wording. It's 100% CS jargon speak.
>  
>  Not really ... the word 'feature' used in this way is pretty old. 
You're describing how English speakers chose to apply a general word for 
to a very specific context. You could replace feature with element, 
property or part in your examples. You can not replace it in the 
proposed slogan. Because feature in the slogan has a very specific CS 
jargon meaning, and this specific meaning does not translate well.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

[Karsten Wade]

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 21:56 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>  Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  > On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 18:58 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>  > 
>  >> While some languages like English have reused nice pre-existing words 
>  >> for the "CS feature" concept, others use terribly contrived
> bureaucratic 
>  >> words, and I suspect some do not even have any local word for
> "feature". 
>  >> It's just not important enough for the vast majority of world's 
>  >> population to justify wording. It's 100% CS jargon speak.
>  > 
>  > Not really ... the word 'feature' used in this way is pretty old.
>  
>  You're describing how English speakers chose to apply a general word for 
>  to a very specific context. You could replace feature with element, 
>  property or part in your examples. You can not replace it in the 
>  proposed slogan. Because feature in the slogan has a very specific CS 
>  jargon meaning, and this specific meaning does not translate well. 
I just figured that since the CS-specific meaning is derived directly
from the general meaning, then using the general meaning to find a word
would work.  It doesn't have to be alliterative or as short.  But there
may be a subtlety here with localization that I don't understand?

If you said to me, "Freedom is a feature of our school," I would
understand that meaning without knowing the CS-specific context.  Why
wouldn't that apply to the usage in Fedora?

In other words, knowing the CS-specific meaning adds depth to the
understanding of the slogan, but not knowing the CS-specific meaning
doesn't detract from the slogan.

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr.
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41

[John Babich]

On 10/5/07, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:

<snip>

>  If you said to me, "Freedom is a feature of our school," I
> would
>  understand that meaning without knowing the CS-specific context.  Why
>  wouldn't that apply to the usage in Fedora?
>
>  In other words, knowing the CS-specific meaning adds depth to the
>  understanding of the slogan, but not knowing the CS-specific meaning
>  doesn't detract from the slogan. 
Likewise, a variant on "freedom is a feature" is

"Freedom is a feature, not a bug".

If that is hard to translate due to CS jargon, then it can be
expressed (in English) as

"Freedom is a feature, not a flaw",

which, I believe, conveys pretty much the same meaning with nice alliteration.

What is lost is the play on words from the common jargon saying,

"It's a feature, not a bug".

The point is that "Freedom is a feature" is a good slogan in that it
translates well and provides fertile ground for further elaboration.

John Babich
Volunteer, Fedora Project

[simon]

Am Freitag, 5. Oktober 2007 22:20:02 schrieb John Babich:
>  On 10/5/07, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>
>  "Freedom is a feature, not a bug". 
boring

>  The point is that "Freedom is a feature" is a good slogan
> in that it
>  translates well and provides fertile ground for further elaboration. 
From my German point - my feelings are divided about this slogan,  easy to 
consume yes - because you will not think about it - it sounds like all of the 
slogans "freedom inside", "Fedora, the better way of live",
"Freedom is a 
feature"... boring. 
For me,  "what Fedora is" is not enough transported - as a alternative on a 
poster or a shirt yes this would be a nice idea. But for me the "infinity 
voice freedom" slogan is the better one.
Cheers Joerg



-- 
Jörg Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
Key Fingerprint:
3691 0989 2DCA 58A2 8D1F 2CAC C823 558E 5B5B 5688

[Giacomo Succi]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
I totally agree with you.

>  From my German point - my feelings are divided about this slogan,
>  easy to consume yes - because you will not think about it - it
>  sounds like all of the slogans "freedom inside", "Fedora, the
>  better way of live", "Freedom is a feature"... boring. For me,
>  "what Fedora is" is not enough transported - as a alternative on a
>  poster or a shirt yes this would be a nice idea. But for me the
>  "infinity voice freedom" slogan is the better one Cheers Joerg 
Happy Fedoring^^!

- --
Giacomo Succi

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Contacts:
eMail: giacomo_succi(a)email.it; AIM: Anandir82
Y!: anandir82; ICQ: 135781176
J: Anandir(a)jabber.org; MSN: anandir(a)email.it
Skype: anandir82

GPG:        0x52CDCA27
GPG Server:    pool.sks-keyservers.net
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>  
> iD8DBQFHBsMaUda2pFLNyicRAjXMAJ97LgHMnL6oil04FGcMhooozuId6wCguR77
> Jzsm6XqF2G2fiURvV7cA7Do=
> =eUMH
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
 
 --
 Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f
 
 Sponsor:
 La soluzione per vendere o coprare qualcosa, la trovi su Email.it Annunci! 
 Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=6892&d=6-10

[Dimitris Glezos]

Στις 05-10-2007, ημέρα Παρ, και ώρα 23:22 +0200, ο/η JoergSimon έγραψε:
>  For me,  "what Fedora is" is not enough transported - as a
> alternative on a 
>  poster or a shirt yes this would be a nice idea. But for me the "infinity 
>  voice freedom" slogan is the better one.
>  Cheers Joerg 
FWIW, I noticed that when I talk about Fedora and answer the oh-so-often
Q "Why should I install Fedora and not X or Y?" my first three points
are about a) the amount of work being done and the potential we have in
1, 5, 10 years time, b) the obsession with freedom, and c) the openness:
open discussions, democratic leadership and upstream mantra.

Which, come to think of it, are pretty good match to the "infinity,
freedom, voice" slogan. So, at least in my mind, these 3 words purely
identify Fedora from all other distributions.

"Freedom is a feature" is cool and maybe more impressive and memorable,
so we could use it as well in marketing. I believe though we should
really promote the current one *much* more than we currently do because
it captures what and why we are right to the bone.

-d

-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/


"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Kamisamanou Burgess]

I think the current slogan Infintity. Freedom. Voice has a more powerful
impact. However, I would think that Freedom should be first in the list.

-- 
Sayonara,
Kamisamanou Burgess
http://www.kamisamanou.net

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 23:22 +0200, JoergSimon escribió:
>  Am Freitag, 5. Oktober 2007 22:20:02 schrieb John Babich:
>  > On 10/5/07, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>  >
>  > "Freedom is a feature, not a bug".
>  
>  boring
>   
I agree. It seems intended for tech people. 
However, potential new tech users never would be attracted by something
like that. 



>  > The point is that "Freedom is a feature" is a good
> slogan in that it
>  > translates well and provides fertile ground for further elaboration. 
I've a brief theory/thought that can be applied to non-native English
speakers, for me own experience. Maybe that explain why somebody said
before that "Freedom is a feature" seems too long.. 
That (ugly in my opinion..) slogan, in my mother tongue (Spanish) would
be literally "La libertad es una característica". Conclusion: in Spanish
(in this case), that's not an slogan. Nobody here could imagine that as
an slogan, ..believe me.
Where's problem then? I think our brain tends immediately to translate
(with or without our conscious consent..) short phrases, especially if
we think (or the mind catchs..) that that sentence in particular is
somewhat important (and this is the case of slogans, by definition). 



>  
>  From my German point - my feelings are divided about this slogan,  easy to 
>  consume yes - because you will not think about it - it sounds like all of the 
>  slogans "freedom inside", "Fedora, the better way of live",
> "Freedom is a 
>  feature"... boring.  
I agree.

>  For me,  "what Fedora is" is not enough transported - as a
> alternative on a 
>  poster or a shirt yes this would be a nice idea. But for me the "infinity 
>  voice freedom" slogan is the better one. 
"Infitiny. Voice. Freedom" is not an slogan IMHO, since it isn't even a
shaped phrase. 
And who said that an slogan must define a subject? You men are trying to
find something that someway can define what Fedora is. 
An slogan, IMHO, can try that way or can try to transmit some essence,
some idea; in the first situation, the worst (rude) way would be three
basic ideas separated by a colon. That's what we apparently have. 
No too much imagination.


>  Cheers Joerg
>  
>   
Daniel

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Karsten Wade a écrit :

>  If you said to me, "Freedom is a feature of our school," I
> would
>  understand that meaning without knowing the CS-specific context.  Why
>  wouldn't that apply to the usage in Fedora? 
Because feature as a general concept of "element", "part", 
"characteristic" exists everywhere.

In English this very general concept has acquired a positive undertone. 
Not just characteristic but "desirable characteristic".

In CS English because all the vendors and reviewers are unable to 
compare products on quality but only fill features matrixes feature has 
become "very desirable characteristic we use to judge software exclusively"

So Freedom is a feature means
"We consider freedom is one of those very desirable characteristics we 
use to judge software exclusively"

(see how awkward it is when written explicitely?)

While a short translation in a language without CS english positive 
undertones will only go
"Freedom is a characteristic"

In "Freedom is a feature of our school," people can infer from the 
context feature is positive, even in other languages. Because 
Freedom=good-for-school is generally accepted.

In
Fedora. Freedom is a feature
you've got little context to decide whether it's a good or bad feature.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg <hidden> wrote:
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think? 
Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
Freedom is a Feature. Having lots of "F" does point to Fedora. But
other linux distributions provide "freedom" too.

The slogan of Fedora should be related to "what makes fedora so unique".

The proposed slogan needs to be rephrased!
perhaps: "New Features for your Freedom."

regards,
Chitlesh
-- 
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com

[Greg DeKoenigsberg]

So I'm starting to see a pattern.

Native English speakers seem to *really* dig it.

Non-native speakers seem more reserved.

/me wonders if we need different slogans per language.  Or even, give the 
local ambassadors the power to come up with their own Best Slogan.

--g

On Fri, 5 Oct 2007, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:

>  On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg <hidden> wrote:
> >
> > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
>
>  Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
>  Freedom is a Feature. Having lots of "F" does point to Fedora. But
>  other linux distributions provide "freedom" too.
>
>  The slogan of Fedora should be related to "what makes fedora so unique".
>
>  The proposed slogan needs to be rephrased!
>  perhaps: "New Features for your Freedom."
>
>  regards,
>  Chitlesh
>  
-- 
Greg DeKoenigsberg
Community Development Manager
Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255
"To whomsoever much hath been given...
...from him much shall be asked"

[Paul Stauffer]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2007 at 01:04:13PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  /me wonders if we need different slogans per language.  Or even, give
> the 
>  local ambassadors the power to come up with their own Best Slogan. 
Fedora certainly wouldn't be the first brand to vary its identifying marks
and/or phrases for different regions of the world.

Perhaps the English phrase will be "Freedom is a Feature", and perhaps other
languages will opt for variations such as "Fedora means Freedom", or
whatever seems to work best in that particular language and cultural
context.  The local ambassadors can lead the way here.

cheers,
- Paul

-- 
Paul Stauffer <paulds(a)bu.edu&gt;
Manager of Research Computing
Computer Science Department
Boston University

[Nicu Buculei]

Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  
>  So I'm starting to see a pattern.
>  
>  Native English speakers seem to *really* dig it.
>  
>  Non-native speakers seem more reserved. 
This is correct: I, as a non-native English speaker, dig it in Enghlish 
but would have a hard time translating it in my native language.
But I don't see this as a reason to reject it.

-- 
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

[Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:

>  Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora. 
But it just fits the SUCCES bits of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_to_Stick

:)

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFHBm70XQZpNTcrCzMRAthrAJ9rtGZ/GN8CbUK8n8uevHWeybccKwCdHhND
> 9WJ8RJCuey/92NqoQ/NtgQY=
> =92t9
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 22:35 +0530, Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay escribió:

>  > Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
>  
>  But it just fits the SUCCES bits of
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_to_Stick
>  
>  :) 

-Simplicity —finding the core of any idea..............

	Pass (maybe)

-Unexpectedness —grabbing people's attention 
 by surprising them ...................................

	FAIL (IMO)

-Concreteness —making sure an idea can be grasped 
 and remembered later .................................

	I'm not sure. I'd bet it wouldn't.

-Credibility —giving an idea believability ............   

	Not much applicable IMO (this is a slogan..)


-Emotion —helping people see the importance of an idea

	Pass (maybe)

-Stories —empowering people to use an idea through narrative

	Not applicable here IMO

----------------------------------------------------------

Daniel

[Matthew Miller]

On Sun, Oct 07, 2007 at 09:27:07PM +0200, M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  -Simplicity —finding the core of any idea..............
>  	Pass (maybe)
>  -Unexpectedness —grabbing people's attention 
>   by surprising them ...................................
>  	FAIL (IMO) 
Perhaps this is the key difference between the slogan to computer-savvy
English speakers and translated. 


-- 
Matthew Miller           mattdm(a)mattdm.org          <http://mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux      ------>              <http://linux.bu.edu/>

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
>  On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg <hidden> wrote:
> > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
> > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
>  
>  Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
>  Freedom is a Feature. Having lots of "F" does point to Fedora. But
>  other linux distributions provide "freedom" too.
>  
>  The slogan of Fedora should be related to "what makes fedora so unique".
>  
>  The proposed slogan needs to be rephrased!
>  perhaps: "New Features for your Freedom."
>  
>  regards,
>  Chitlesh 
My gut feeling tells me I disagree although my brain admits I haven't
been using too much other distros lately; what distro (non-Fedora based)
exactly does offer Freedom as much or as strong as Fedora does?

NOTE: This question doesn't need an actual answer; those who do use
other distros a lot may want to let their gut feeling answer. Better
yet, let's not have any brains involved in answering it.

I think, the catchier the slogan the more people will appreciate it's
actual meaning.

My brain comes up with another variation: "Features Freedom", but my gut
feeling already tells me I like the original better.

- --
Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
- -kanarip

- --
http://www.kanarip.com/
RHCE, LPIC-2, MCP, CCNA
C6B0 7FB4 43E6 CDDA D258  F70B 28DE 9FDA 9342 BF08
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFHBnUpKN6f2pNCvwgRAk2tAJ9KPeCsfjnZ0lqxHTlbqkz3UxY2oQCeI2lh
> sINUjKvpEyVeM5wgge3/aKE=
> =/rSd
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Giacomo Succi]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
For me... That slogan is really powerful. Point the finger on the
major thing, regarding Fedora, before all the tech stuff, before the
art, before everything is Fedora's philosophy core.
But, for me, it'sn't right for a new slogan.
It sounds too "technical". Feature is related to a piece of software,
not to a philosophy. I don't know.
It'sn't enough for me. The sentence it self is great, but for the
general content... I don't know.
It doesn't convince me too much.
Sorry man :S.
That is just a point of view :).

Happy Fedoring^^!

- --
Giacomo Succi

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Contacts:
eMail: giacomo_succi(a)email.it; AIM: Anandir82
Y!: anandir82; ICQ: 135781176
J: Anandir(a)jabber.org; MSN: anandir(a)email.it
Skype: anandir82

GPG:        0x52CDCA27
GPG Server:    pool.sks-keyservers.net
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>  
> iD8DBQFHBnz1Uda2pFLNyicRAgPLAJ4kS8j7gSggs2Yk1fThxV5nwLGAdACfXF9c
> wyIdCugZjDLBfCXpmp9mF3g=
> =4kTy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
 
 --
 Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f
 
 Sponsor:
 Vuoi un prestito fino a 30.000 Euro? Clicca qui per un preventivo immediato! Prometeo ti
propone prestiti personali senza attese e senza spese.
* 
 Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=7083&d=5-10

[John Babich]

On 10/5/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip(a)kanarip.com&gt; wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
< snip >
>  My brain comes up with another variation: "Features Freedom", but my gut
>  feeling already tells me I like the original better.
>  
"Freedom is a feature" has the emotional impact a good slogan requires.

More words can be added as needed, such as

"Freedom is a feature, not a bug"

"Freedom is a feature, not an option"

"Freedom is a feature worth preserving"

But the slogan remains..."Freedom is a feature"

+1

My 2 cents...

John Babich
Fedora Volunteer and Ambassador

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

On 10/5/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote:
>  My gut feeling tells me I disagree although my brain admits I
> haven't
>  been using too much other distros lately; what distro (non-Fedora based)
>  exactly does offer Freedom as much or as strong as Fedora does? 
I would rather prefer a slogan(for fedora) which values Fedora
Contributors(RH and community) and not contributors of other distros.
Many fedora contributors spend about 4 hours per day for fedora, at
least it's my case. Having a slogan which values freedom that other
distributions provide, does NOT praise the fedora community, but
rather the "linux community" !

Many fedora technologies are poorly advertised and yet the proposed
slogan doesn't praise fedora, but free software. Fedora isn't just
about "free software", but a wonderful (the best and professional) +
active community that does more than "assembling free packages".

The Fedora Project is something really special, it is even the engine
of the linux community.
The Fedora Project has many special contributors and develops anything
for anyone.

Fedora is not a kiddy-type distribution but provides quality applications/OS.

Example 1:
Aren't you proud of Fedora Artwork in each release ? Every time
there's something new and every time one will see posts on
planet.fedoraproject.org praising Fedora Artwork. Which other
distributions have a better artwork community than Fedora's ? There
isn't.
There are many Fedora SIGs which have done wonderful work.


Example 2:
In the past, people cursed fedora for X,Y and Z reasons.
Fedora has already fixed and improved X, Y and Z.
But still people are pointing to the X,Y and Z.
Aren't you sick about it ?

Example 3:
someone: Hai, have you seen X has new features (P,Q,R and S) that no
other distribution has?
Me: Fedora has P, Q, R and S since at least 6 months now, perhaps even
since a year ago.
Didn't you come across this before ?
example of example 3:
http://linuxglobe.wordpress.com/2007/10/01/fedora-8-needs-to-add-features...


Well that my thoughts. I'll advise not to jump and choose any slogan.


Chitlesh
-- 
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 20:16 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH escribió:

>  I would rather prefer a slogan(for fedora) which values Fedora
>  Contributors(RH and community) and not contributors of other distros.
>  Many fedora contributors spend about 4 hours per day for fedora, at
>  least it's my case. Having a slogan which values freedom that other
>  distributions provide, does NOT praise the fedora community, but
>  rather the "linux community" !
>   
++++1
Completely agree


>  Many fedora technologies are poorly advertised and yet the proposed
>  slogan doesn't praise fedora, but free software. Fedora isn't just
>  about "free software", but a wonderful (the best and professional) +
>  active community that does more than "assembling free packages".
>   
You're right. The main problem IMHO is that despite everything, nobody
knows very well what are the identity signs that Fedora should have, nor
the possible target audience it should be intended. But this is another
discussion that I won't to open here.



>  The Fedora Project is something really special, it is even the
> engine
>  of the linux community. 
I do not think so, sincerely. I think that sentence goes two steps
forward from where it should reasonably. 

>  The Fedora Project has many special contributors and develops
> anything
>  for anyone.
>  
>  Fedora is not a kiddy-type distribution but provides quality applications/OS.
>   
I think there no kiddy-type distros (apart from Windows :-), and those
that AFAIK Red Hat sponsored for schools (K12, etc.. -IIRC) or for the
poorest countries with O.L.P.C.
I'm not a developer nor a beta-tester, etc... so in this issue I get
everything for free, and I dislike scornful comments against other
distros. Said this.., I have to say that unfortunately most of the times
the victim of comments (I mean over there...) is Fedora. 


>  Example 1:
>  Aren't you proud of Fedora Artwork in each release ? Every time
>  there's something new and every time one will see posts on
>  planet.fedoraproject.org praising Fedora Artwork. Which other
>  distributions have a better artwork community than Fedora's ? There
>  isn't.
>  There are many Fedora SIGs which have done wonderful work.
>   
Chitlesh, with all the respect for you and the Fedoda Artwork team, I
must say that there are several distros where they much care its look.
Some of them come with KDE by default, what means a more polished look
(e.g. Suse). 
In respect to GNOME, I think the gnome.art exists long before the Fedora
one:
http://art.gnome.org/

Most of them here I believe they use Debian and/or Ubuntu.

In respect to me, like many other Fedora/Linux-in-general users,
actually I generally prefer Gnome themes (all them available in the
repositories), and I do not hide that I dislike even the boot splash,
therefore I use to change it, and so on many things..
The F7 appearance was notably better than the F6 one, IMO. I respect
their work. But one of F6 or F5 (I do not remember yet) was, IMO, a
vulgar childish (Be aware I'm not talking about the icons made by a
woman, I do not remember now her name but I think they are cool and
fresh). This one (F7) preserves something of that (childish) yet, but I
repeat that wasn't my choice at all. 

BTW, past days I've read somewhere over there (I don't remember where)
that Red Hat doesn't allow to Fedora teams the use of the red colour in
logos, oficial Fedora websites, etc.. Then, I understood why Fedora is
bluuuuuueeee everything around; blue combined with white for example (in
good proportions) could be OK, but blue combined with more blue..., is
really depressing. This are basic things, the A,B,C.., I'm not a
designer nor anything related, but there are things that claims..

Let me a test, Chitlesh, ask to you; please, go to both sites briefly:

http://en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org

http://fedoraproject.org/

http://www.ubuntu.com/


You are a really common desktop user.. Which one do you most like? 
All of them probably have, more or less, the same (respective) info
inside, however they don't look like very much.
And the look of the Fedora main page has improved considerably in the
last months..


>  
>  Example 2:
>  In the past, people cursed fedora for X,Y and Z reasons.
>  Fedora has already fixed and improved X, Y and Z.
>  But still people are pointing to the X,Y and Z.
>  Aren't you sick about it ?
>   

I agree. 
One of the problems of Fedora as a Project is that they don't know how
to sell their own product.
There are many Fedora email lists, there are ambassadors around the
world, etc... but we lack of a good look for the Fedora website, because
of we have the blue..., just and only the blue blue..
Who could be attracted  by something like that? 
Oh! I forget..! It doesn't have importance, since we do not need tons of
new users...We just know that we are __better__ than other distros..
Good.



>  Example 3:
>  someone: Hai, have you seen X has new features (P,Q,R and S) that no
>  other distribution has?
>  Me: Fedora has P, Q, R and S since at least 6 months now, perhaps even
>  since a year ago.
>  Didn't you come across this before ?
>  example of example 3:
>
> http://linuxglobe.wordpress.com/2007/10/01/fedora-8-needs-to-add-features...
>  
>   
You're right here too. I'm sure you are a good "ambassador" over there
in the net, seriously. I can imagine you in those typical forum threads
where the Ubuntu (Windows and other species) users generally end up
crushing you. Into those arenas is where really users get worked up and
can encourage to someone to try this one or that one distro.



>  Well that my thoughts. I'll advise not to jump and choose any
> slogan.
>  
>  
>  Chitlesh
>  -- 
>  http://clunixchit.blogspot.com 

Regards,

Daniel

[Rahul Sundaram]

M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  
>  You're right. The main problem IMHO is that despite everything, nobody
>  knows very well what are the identity signs that Fedora should have, nor
>  the possible target audience it should be intended. But this is another
>  discussion that I won't to open here. 
http://gregdek.livejournal.com/16940.html
>  
>  BTW, past days I've read somewhere over there (I don't remember where)
>  that Red Hat doesn't allow to Fedora teams the use of the red colour in
>  logos, oficial Fedora websites, etc.. Then, I understood why Fedora is
>  bluuuuuueeee everything around;  
You have read wrong information. Blue is used because it is the Fedora 
color. If Fedora art team wants to use Red they are free to.

Rahul

Ps: Instead of sending many mails, consolidate your replies.

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El lun, 08-10-2007 a las 00:18 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:
>  M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  > 
>  > You're right. The main problem IMHO is that despite everything, nobody
>  > knows very well what are the identity signs that Fedora should have, nor
>  > the possible target audience it should be intended. But this is another
>  > discussion that I won't to open here.
>  
>  http://gregdek.livejournal.com/16940.html 

That argument is not convincing at all. If you want to put yourself a
vendaje over your eyes.., your self...
Most of you (developers -mostly from Red Hat or got involved there,
etc...-) think that everyone that uses Linux, having chose or not
Fedora, is a developer too, and therefore is in condition of promote big
changes in a Linux project. That's precisely your fault, I think
developers are completely unable to abstract themselves by a moment and
to think like common end users would be (empathy). 


>  > 
>  > BTW, past days I've read somewhere over there (I don't remember where)
>  > that Red Hat doesn't allow to Fedora teams the use of the red colour in
>  > logos, oficial Fedora websites, etc.. Then, I understood why Fedora is
>  > bluuuuuueeee everything around; 
>  
>  You have read wrong information. 
It's possible. One read so much info throughout the weeks..
It was just a comment I read.. You seem uncomfortable with it. 
If sometime I find where it was, I promise that you will be the first I
will tell it.:-)


>   Blue is used because it is the Fedora 
>  color.  
:-)

A strange colour for a skin, not? Maybe Fedora (=Teodora, Dorotea) is
ill. 


>  If Fedora art team wants to use Red they are free to.
>   
Maybe like the freedom to use typical RH hats but in blue? What a
paradoxical!

>  Rahul 

>  Ps: Instead of sending many mails, consolidate your replies.
>   
No problem. Understood. Maybe a private one for this would have been
more elegant. I'd have understood. ;-)
What are the limit, please? 
I couldn't even see the email-messages until today, but if you say that
sending 6-8 emails are "many" you must be right..
There are tons of infinite threads almost daily that surpass this amount
per day. So, considering that I didn't reply anything from Monday until
today (Sunday), average would be... 1 per day? Do you consider it
"many"?
In relation with "consolidate your replies", please let me know if there
is a only email that lacks of sense or not written seriously.

Daniel

[Rahul Sundaram]

M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  El lun, 08-10-2007 a las 00:18 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:
> > M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
> >> You're right. The main problem IMHO is that despite everything, nobody
> >> knows very well what are the identity signs that Fedora should have, nor
> >> the possible target audience it should be intended. But this is another
> >> discussion that I won't to open here.
> > http://gregdek.livejournal.com/16940.html
>  
>  
>  That argument is not convincing at all. If you want to put yourself a
>  vendaje over your eyes.., your self... 
What are you doing to help? Just waving a big flag doesn't change anything.

>  It's possible. One read so much info throughout the weeks..
>  It was just a comment I read.. You seem uncomfortable with it. 
>  If sometime I find where it was, I promise that you will be the first I
>  will tell it.:-) 
I am uncomfortable with people spreading misinformation, yes.

>  A strange colour for a skin, not? Maybe Fedora (=Teodora, Dorotea)
> is
>  ill.  
It's not a skin color. It is the color for a distribution.  Very 
different things.

>  Maybe like the freedom to use typical RH hats but in blue? What a
>  paradoxical! 
It is part of a brand. Fedora's brand is explicitly different from 
others. The name, logo and colors are part of it.

>  In relation with "consolidate your replies", please let me
> know if there
>  is a only email that lacks of sense or not written seriously. 
When you are replying to many mails, consolidate the replies. Dozens of 
mails one after another as a answer for a week's worth of mails is not 
very courteous to people reading those mails. Just common netiquette.

Rahul

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El lun, 08-10-2007 a las 03:00 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:

>  
>  What are you doing to help? Just waving a big flag doesn't change anything.
>   
Personally, I firmly think that there are no much things around _so_
strong in order to promote a "weird" O.S. for most common people, AKA
Linux, than "wearing it" permanently from a very common person, without
fascination nor "big flags", without pompousness nor flattery, without
"Linux Install Parties", without ambassadors (sounds to me a bit like
"commercial" sellers..), without being an 2nd grade I.T. student,
without evangelisms nor talibanisms, etc, etc..
In the other hand, I won't -as you will probably guess- list here any
medal, not even suggest about its mere existence. Nevertheless, I
remember you that contributing to the Open Source movement can be done
in multiple ways, and you'll agree that the Fedora Project is no more
than a very restricted area of it. 
For me, collaboration for Linux in general is very different than
involving severely with a distribution in particular, since for the last
one you must believe completely in that, being 100% interested in that
(for any reason), to have enough time, etc. 
Who is convinced about this project in particular, don't worry that
he/she will do without asking.
Said that.., what happens if somebody is doing nothing for helping? Does
it denies "per se" the right to the constructive criticism? No. Most of
the people that use computers daily in a common/regular way won't do
anything for any "computing" community into their whole life. They
_just_ use computers (from time to time, sometimes some minutes a day,
etc...). Actually, I'm not into this group (as regards ways of
behaviour), but I would perfectly..(as regards computing for me is, at
the most, secondary). So what..? Are you going to tell/"ask" that phrase
to everyone that is coming newbie to Linux, or to Fedora, during the
next years?

>  > It's possible. One read so much info throughout the weeks..
>  > It was just a comment I read.. You seem uncomfortable with it. 
>  > If sometime I find where it was, I promise that you will be the first I
>  > will tell it.:-)
>  
>  I am uncomfortable with people spreading misinformation, yes.
>   
Yeah! ...and specially with people that you know that, by telling his
opinion freely, has nothing to loose here, in this business. I'm not
from Red Hat (not an aspiring either..), I do not belong to the I.T.
engineering world, I'm not even a fanatic of computing and computers..,
I'm just a common man that when sitting down for a while in order to
make a task or whatever, is always facing a Linux as O.S., no more (no
less...). 

>  > A strange colour for a skin, not? Maybe Fedora (=Teodora,
> Dorotea) is
>  > ill. 
>  
>  It's not a skin color. It is the color for a distribution.  Very 
>  different things.
>   
Worrying.. There is a thing called humour, this sometimes includes games
such as double sense words, etc. 
Fedora _was_ from ages, still is, and _will be_ forever, and over the
rest of things (take note)... a name of woman. That's the basis. That
was precisely the trick.


>  > Maybe like the freedom to use typical RH hats but in blue? What
> a
>  > paradoxical!
>  
>  It is part of a brand. Fedora's brand is explicitly different from 
>  others. The name, logo and colors are part of it.
>   
:-) 
You forget the money that comes from Red Hat, the main sponsor.

>  > In relation with "consolidate your replies", please
> let me know if there
>  > is a only email that lacks of sense or not written seriously.
>  
>  When you are replying to many mails, consolidate the replies. Dozens of 
>  mails one after another as a answer for a week's worth of mails is not 
>  very courteous to people reading those mails. Just common netiquette.
>   
There was just eight emails, not "dozens". Since you didn't take
the
trouble to count them..., just eight in total and that taking part in
different threads. 
The question is why you have talked about "dozens", maybe for some
reason they seemed dozens to you... ;-) Let's think that they were just
bothering you, from the first to the last. Since they were (or tried to
be) serious, don't talk _you_ to me about netiquette..., I can smell the
bad behaviour, the interested behaviour, and bad intention from someone
from miles away.
I've seen between folks many complains about netiquette with the years,
but this is the first time that I see that someone is complaining about
8 fu***** emails into a very very low-traffic list, just incredible!
Even them won't be enough to enliven it.
In respect to accusing me because of the delay in my interventions...
just ridiculous, since that IMO would be applicable to another
situations, where people is really in a hurry for solving some personal
problem or doubt, usually about hardware and/or software.. In addition,
the majority of the threads where I put some reply actually were opened
long time ago and I simply included thoughts, ideas, etc... not
solutions to end up the thread. The rest (2 or 3) were just
clarifications where NOBODY had replied several days after.
Man, let me tell you the true I perceive: real criticism make you feel
really uncomfortable.
Bad issue..
You should learn something from this, but I doubt it.

>  Rahul
>   
Daniel

[simon]

Am Montag, 15. Oktober 2007 00:24:59 schrieb M Daniel R Magarzo:
>  Man, let me tell you the true I perceive: real criticism make you
> feel
>  really uncomfortable.
>  Bad issue..
>  You should learn something from this, but I doubt it.
>  Daniel 
M Daniel R Magarzo, critic is welcome, but you are unkind and not 
constructive, please do me a favor, unsubscribe.

Good bye!


-- 
Jörg Simon
jsimon(a)fedoraproject.org
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon
Key Fingerprint:
3691 0989 2DCA 58A2 8D1F 2CAC C823 558E 5B5B 5688

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El lun, 15-10-2007 a las 09:09 +0200, JoergSimon escribió:

>  
>  M Daniel R Magarzo, critic is welcome, but ... please do me a favor, unsubscribe. 
Hahaha..! :-))
Please, firstly _try_ to do yourself a favour.. open your narrow mind.
	-First degree: higher status. Learn to accept (maybe digest) critics,
that means.. first that you probably are reading what you don't like (an
opinion or whatever..)
	-Second degree: the above would be good, but if you are unable to get
into it (most probably..), just try to remember (repeating helps) the
following: push the DEL key when I do not want to read mails from that
guy.. After all, there were no many emails.

>  
>   you are unkind and not constructive, 
However, you are very kind..! ;-)

The most unkind email comes precisely... from you, and your existencial
void (sorry.., I did mean "constructive existence"..). :-)



>  Good bye!
>  
>   
:-) Ummmm...
I love you too..

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le dimanche 07 octobre 2007 à 23:15 +0200, M Daniel R Magarzo a écrit :

>  Most of you (developers -mostly from Red Hat or got involved there,
>  etc...-) think that everyone that uses Linux, having chose or not
>  Fedora, is a developer too, and therefore is in condition of promote big
>  changes in a Linux project. 
That's one of the "identity signs" of Fedora. We fix stuff we don't
wait
for other distributions to do it for us. And we fix stuff at every level
— development, packaging, artwork, etc

Another "identity sign" is Freedom. We get enough slack for making hard
decisions (when other distributions formally tag stuff 'non-free" then
distribute it anyway and make no active effort to replace it) to know
they are hard decisions and not everyone makes them.

>  That's precisely your fault, I think
>  developers are completely unable to abstract themselves by a moment and
>  to think like common end users would be (empathy). 
Users think short term. Red Hat and Fedora think long term. We don't
take decisions that may haunt us later lightly. That's a third "identity
sign". Countless users decided at a time "RHL/Fedora is not
user-friendly, I'll use foo distro" instead and then foo distro
disappeared because it achieved short-term user-friendliness at the cost
of long-term user-friendliness (being still there to help users)

We certainly have poor communication but that's not because Fedora is
lacking identity. Fedora has strong identity. It wants to build a free
community platform period. That's something inherited from Red Hat. Red
Hat didn't achieve its market-leader situation by being confused on the
objectives.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El lun, 08-10-2007 a las 00:26 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot escribió:
>  Le dimanche 07 octobre 2007 à 23:15 +0200, M Daniel R Magarzo a écrit
> :
>  
>  > Most of you (developers -mostly from Red Hat or got involved there,
>  > etc...-) think that everyone that uses Linux, having chose or not
>  > Fedora, is a developer too, and therefore is in condition of promote big
>  > changes in a Linux project.
>  
>  That's one of the "identity signs" of Fedora. We fix stuff we don't
> wait
>  for other distributions to do it for us. And we fix stuff at every level
>  — development, packaging, artwork, etc
>   
Yes, precisely it's quite the opposite... you fix stuff in order that
other distributions (aka Red Hat) don't have to do it; you do it for
them. 
...and that I wouldn't call "an identity sign", but almost necessity.

>  Another "identity sign" is Freedom. We get enough slack for
> making hard
>  decisions (when other distributions formally tag stuff 'non-free" then
>  distribute it anyway and make no active effort to replace it) to know
>  they are hard decisions and not everyone makes them. 
"Hard decisions" are when least "controversial decisions". Many
people
think that to be too much rigid (no matter the topic, whatever issue in
life..) doesn't lead to anywhere. I personally agree.

>  > That's precisely your fault, I think
>  > developers are completely unable to abstract themselves by a moment and
>  > to think like common end users would be (empathy).
>  
>  Users think short term. Red Hat and Fedora think long term. We don't
>  take decisions that may haunt us later lightly. That's a third "identity
>  sign". Countless users decided at a time "RHL/Fedora is not
>  user-friendly, I'll use foo distro" instead and then foo distro
>  disappeared because it achieved short-term user-friendliness at the cost
>  of long-term user-friendliness (being still there to help users)
>   
That's a wise decision from Red Hat. If I were Red Hat, probably I'd do
the same.. all in all, my clients wouldn't be end users, but enterprise
employees. But when Fedora follows (copy, reproduce) that strategy
(better than say "principles"), it's not so much clear that they are
getting right. You believe such things and I don't, but probably I'm
wrong. All in all, I'm just _the end user_ here, no more, and I think in
"short-term"...

>  We certainly have poor communication but that's not because
> Fedora is
>  lacking identity. Fedora has strong identity.  
Don't make me laugh. Proof that the last is not true is simply that many
people are discussing about this over there. If something has -really- a
_strong identity_ it is reflected instantaneously, and noboby brings up
the issue at all.

>  It wants to build a free
>  community platform period. That's something inherited from Red Hat. Red
>  Hat didn't achieve its market-leader situation by being confused on the
>  objectives.
>   
 Red Hat is Red Ha, and I don't care much about them, I sure they will
do their own things right; and Fedora should be maybe another thing, not
just an fixed extension from Red Hat. That isn't much Freedom indeed. 
But... who put the money and the human resources? Uncle Red.

Daniel

[Rahul Sundaram]

M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:

> >
>  Yes, precisely it's quite the opposite... you fix stuff in order that
>  other distributions (aka Red Hat) don't have to do it; you do it for
>  them. 
>  ...and that I wouldn't call "an identity sign", but almost necessity.
I guess you don't have much of an idea of who is doing the work and 
regardless of who is doing it, the benefits is shared by everyone in the 
community including Red Hat but certainly not limited to it.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions for details.

I see the necessity to capture the identity within the slogan but I 
don't see the identity itself being questioned. It has been established 
for a long time now.

"Enterprise employees" are merely another kind of end users and Fedora 
shared a common base being the upstream though there are different 
strategies which should be immediately obviously to those who have 
actually used the different distributions.

Rahul

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El mié, 10-10-2007 a las 05:48 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:

>  
>  I guess you don't have much of an idea of who is doing the work and 
>  regardless of who is doing it, the benefits is shared by everyone in the 
>  community including Red Hat but certainly not limited to it. 
Probably you're
right here. 

>  I see the necessity to capture the identity within the slogan but I 
>  don't see the identity itself being questioned. It has been established 
>  for a long time now.
>   
How curious! Just the opposite from I'd see both issues... :-)
Well, anyhow it was a pleasure to try to give my sincere opinion, my
thoughts and -to sum up..., the way I see things; I'm sure they were
well received and valued ;-)

Daniel

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Le Mer 10 octobre 2007 01:32, M Daniel R Magarzo a écrit :

>   Red Hat is Red Ha, and I don't care much about them, I sure they
> will
>  do their own things right; and Fedora should be maybe another thing,
>  not just an fixed extension from Red Hat. 
Fedora inherited its core and past decisions from Red Hat. A lot of
contributors and users chose Fedora because they liked this core (and
Red Hat has been successful because this core is good). Should Fedora
destroy its past just so you've less problems distinguishing between
Fedora and Red Hat? I don't think so.

Red Hat and Fedora are aligned on many things because both
organisations like sound engineering.

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El mié, 10-10-2007 a las 12:01 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot escribió:
>  Le Mer 10 octobre 2007 01:32, M Daniel R Magarzo a écrit :
>  
>  >  Red Hat is Red Ha, and I don't care much about them, I sure they will
>  > do their own things right; and Fedora should be maybe another thing,
>  > not just an fixed extension from Red Hat.
>  
>  Fedora inherited its core and past decisions from Red Hat. A lot of
>  contributors and users chose Fedora because they liked this core (and
>  Red Hat has been successful because this core is good). Should Fedora
>  destroy its past just so you've less problems distinguishing between
>  Fedora and Red Hat? I don't think so.
>   
I didn't mean that. Please, advice the adjetive into my paragraph:
"fixed" extension. 
Anyhow, forget my words, it's not important...

>  Red Hat and Fedora are aligned on many things because both
>  organisations like sound engineering.
>   
They are in its right. OK. End of discussion.

>  -- 
>  Nicolas Mailhot
>   
Daniel

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

On 10/7/07, M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
> >> The Fedora Project is something really special, it is even
> the engine
> >> of the linux community.
> > I do not think so, sincerely. I think that sentence goes two steps
> > forward from where it should reasonably. 
I wonder what new apps or feature I'm using recently which does not
have Fedora contributions.


>  Chitlesh, with all the respect for you and the Fedoda Artwork team,
> I
>  must say that there are several distros where they much care its look.
>  Some of them come with KDE by default, what means a more polished look
>  (e.g. Suse). 
I meant "Each Fedora release, there is a new artwork theme".
Thus this implies a lot of work
A lot of work ==>>> A lot of discussion and A lot of communication
You can even see non english artwork contributors working together on
an english platform to come up in the end with a product, (a new
artwork theme, in this case)

In my opinion, this is something that deserves RESPECT !

Now when you see other distributions having the same artwork for many
years surely there's would be more polished. However the Fedora
Artwork community has recently adopted a new strategy besides only
producing artwork. Now they are willing to promote opensource tools
they use for designing artwork.
see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/ArtTeamProjects/FedoraArtStudio

Well that deserves RESPECT TOO !

>  Let me a test, Chitlesh, ask to you; please, go to both sites
> briefly:
>  You are a really common desktop user.. Which one do you most like?
>  All of them probably have, more or less, the same (respective) info
>  inside, however they don't look like very much.
>  And the look of the Fedora main page has improved considerably in the
>  last months.. 
I'm a special case. I value quality/professional and hardwork before
appearance as you might surely deduce from now.
This attitude affects my movie/music selections up to my favorite distro.
I talked to various contributors of various distributions on various
open source events, but never saw something professional, for me to
say "wow" (only centos). I won't choose a distro just because of its
look, but rather how professional its contributors are.
That's the main reason why I recommend Centos after fedora.


>  You're right here too. I'm sure you are a good
> "ambassador" over there
>  in the net, seriously. I can imagine you in those typical forum threads
>  where the Ubuntu (Windows and other species) users generally end up
>  crushing you. Into those arenas is where really users get worked up and
>  can encourage to someone to try this one or that one distro. 

No, I'm not that kind of person, I promote fedora in real life mainly.

With a few minutes spent reading the threads one can automatically
deduce the weakness of the writer. Then you point to the right URL.
that's it ! :)

However I'm not in the distro war, as I take fedora as the upstream of
other linux distributions, you might even see that on my blog
postings.


Ok, I guess this discussion is going way off from its title.


Chitlesh

==:ads :==)
PS: If a user wants to do VLSI simulation, besides Fedora there is no
other distribution which is simple to use and install !!
see: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab
Now if the user wants to use proprietary vlsi simulators on linux,
AGAIN fedora and its derivatives are THE BEST solutions !! see my blog
posts why.


-- 
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 22:50 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH escribió:
>  On 10/7/07, M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  >>> The Fedora Project is something really special, it is even the engine
>  >>> of the linux community.
>  >> I do not think so, sincerely. I think that sentence goes two steps
>  >> forward from where it should reasonably.
>  
>  I wonder what new apps or feature I'm using recently which does not
>  have Fedora contributions.
>   
 Probably many of them... Sincerely, I don't see the relationship... I
seriously believe that Fedora was and is (in its main features) a very
very good distro. But what I'd never do is to measure its quality
according a lonely factor, and lesser that. 
>  
>  > Chitlesh, with all the respect for you and the Fedoda Artwork team, I
>  > must say that there are several distros where they much care its look.
>  > Some of them come with KDE by default, what means a more polished look
>  > (e.g. Suse). 
>  
>  In my opinion, this is something that deserves RESPECT !
>   
My paragraph started mentioning it before anything, but said that..,
everyone should be forced with themselves to say what they honestly
consider true, their opinions, etc. and this should always prevail over
silence (due to a false respect). Honest criticism is an essential part
of a project. Do not confuse silence with respect, please.
 
>  
>  I'm a special case. I value quality/professional and hardwork before
>  appearance as you might surely deduce from now.
>  This attitude affects my movie/music selections up to my favorite distro.
>  I talked to various contributors of various distributions on various
>  open source events, but never saw something professional, for me to
>  say "wow" (only centos). I won't choose a distro just because of its
>  look, but rather how professional its contributors are. 
Neither do I. But many newbie people would do. Specially if they have
not any prior reference. That's the question. 
All in all, I also value first the core over the "brands", since I know
how to setup a system and its look. 
But please do not underestimate the value of appearance. Other distros
don't do at all, and nobody grants that "a priori" a distro in
particular must be necessarily better than another one.



>  
>  > You're right here too. I'm sure you are a good "ambassador" over
> there
>  > in the net, seriously. I can imagine you in those typical forum threads
>  > where the Ubuntu (Windows and other species) users generally end up
>  > crushing you. Into those arenas is where really users get worked up and
>  > can encourage to someone to try this one or that one distro.
>  
>  
>  No, I'm not that kind of person, I promote fedora in real life mainly.
>  
>  With a few minutes spent reading the threads one can automatically
>  deduce the weakness of the writer. Then you point to the right URL.
>  that's it ! :)
>  
>  However I'm not in the distro war, as I take fedora as the upstream of
>  other linux distributions, you might even see that on my blog
>  postings.
>  
>  Ok, I guess this discussion is going way off from its title.
>  
>  
>  Chitlesh 
>  
>  -- 
>  http://clunixchit.blogspot.com
>   
Daniel

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 19:33 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escribió:

>  
>  My gut feeling tells me I disagree although my brain admits I haven't
>  been using too much other distros lately; what distro (non-Fedora based)
>  exactly does offer Freedom as much or as strong as Fedora does?
>   
Debian maybe...?



>  - --
>  Kind regards,
>  
>  Jeroen van Meeuwen
>  - -kanarip
>   
Daniel

[Jeroen van Meeuwen]

M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 19:33 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escribió:
>  
> > My gut feeling tells me I disagree although my brain admits I haven't
> > been using too much other distros lately; what distro (non-Fedora based)
> > exactly does offer Freedom as much or as strong as Fedora does?
> >
>  
>  Debian maybe...?
>   
Like I suggested the question should maybe have been answered with just
gut feelings rather then actual brain activity because otherwise this is
going to end up being a rather long discussion, besides being off-topic;
Debian has non-free bits floating around in their universe. Although
most have a different definition of Freedom, Fedora picks the most
extreme and, in essence, the only real definition of Freedom.

-- 
Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

--
http://www.kanarip.com/
RHCE, LPIC-2, MCP, CCNA
C6B0 7FB4 43E6 CDDA D258  F70B 28DE 9FDA 9342 BF08

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 21:36 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escribió:

>  Debian has non-free bits floating around in their universe.  
And probably your own Fedora system too. 
I suppose that everything would depend on how we would define the system
"universe" (limits, etc.)
I don't know much people (actually no one) that configure their system
ignoring some well-know repositories, like livna, adobe, or others... In
fact, without them, a Fedora system wouldn't be so attractive/effective
(in terms of variety of packages) for a majority of average users.
Those are facts, not hypocrisy.  
Sometimes, following rules strictly just lead to a decrease or maybe a
lack of freedom indeed. On the other hand, everyone is free to follow
their way...and see.
Probably what makes to Red Hat (and therefore Fedora) be away from
non-free bytes are not actually principles, but caution against possible
legal issues. As the (Chaucer universal well-known) saying goes..."to
make a virtue of necessity". 


>  Although
>  most have a different definition of Freedom, Fedora picks the most
>  extreme and, in essence, the only real definition of Freedom.
>   
Do you really believe this...???

>  -- 
>  Kind regards,
>  
>  Jeroen van Meeuwen
>  -kanarip
>  
>  --
>  http://www.kanarip.com/
>  RHCE, LPIC-2, MCP, CCNA
>  C6B0 7FB4 43E6 CDDA D258  F70B 28DE 9FDA 9342 BF08
>   
Take care,

Daniel

[Rahul Sundaram]

M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  El dom, 07-10-2007 a las 21:36 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escribió:
>  
> > Debian has non-free bits floating around in their universe. 
>  
>  And probably your own Fedora system too. 
>  I suppose that everything would depend on how we would define the system
>  "universe" (limits, etc.) 
This is serious hand waving. Debian has a non-free repository hosted by 
Debian. Fedora does not.

>  Probably what makes to Red Hat (and therefore Fedora) be away from
>  non-free bytes are not actually principles, but caution against possible
>  legal issues. As the (Chaucer universal well-known) saying goes..."to
>  make a virtue of necessity".  
No. There are hundreds of very safe legal gratis non-free software. 
Fedora does ship them out of principles. No second guessing required.

Rahul

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El mié, 10-10-2007 a las 04:37 +0530, Rahul Sundaram escribió:

>  
>  This is serious hand waving. Debian has a non-free repository hosted by 
>  Debian. Fedora does not. 
Of course! Fedora leaves that "work" to other "partners" whom have
nothing to do with it.
E.g., what most people mostly love from Fedora is the Livna repository. 

Daniel

[Jesse Keating]

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:33:21 +0200
M Daniel R Magarzo <b2.mdr.magarzo(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  E.g., what most people mostly love from Fedora is the Livna
>  repository.  
That's a pretty bold statement and I can't fathom a method for you to
actually prove it.

If this were really true, they wouldn't use Fedora at all, they would
use something else that has this software already in it or easier to
obtain.

-- 
Jesse Keating RHCE      (jkeating.livejournal.com)
Fedora Project          (fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating)
GPG Public Key          (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub)

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El dom, 14-10-2007 a las 17:44 -0400, jkeating escribió:

>  
>  If this were really true, they wouldn't use Fedora at all, they would
>  use something else that has this software already in it or easier to
>  obtain.
>   
Why not?
It's easier to put a vendaje over your eyes than digest the reality fro
some people..
The last is harder indeed. 

Daniel

[Marc Wiriadisastra]

M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  El dom, 14-10-2007 a las 17:44 -0400, jkeating escribió:
>
>    
> > If this were really true, they wouldn't use Fedora at all, they would
> > use something else that has this software already in it or easier to
> > obtain.
> >
> >     
>  Why not?
>  It's easier to put a vendaje over your eyes than digest the reality fro
>  some people..
>  The last is harder indeed. 
>
>  Daniel
>
>     
Do you seriously think that the only reason people install Fedora is 
because of Livna.  That thought is ludicrous Livna is an addon 
repository that supports non-free software.  While not degrading what 
they do since some contribute to Fedora as a whole.  They do not create 
the distribution at all.  The majority of the distribution is created by 
people who work for RedHat (I think) a lot also from the community.

The fact that Ubuntu has bigger numbers is due in part to the fact that 
it is easier to install than Fedora although that is changing.  They 
also offer non-free software as default.  I'm not to sure about 
PCLinuxOS but they are making a charge.  One thing that Fedora does 
which is similar in nature to Debian is that 'we' are the base for other 
distro's.  Ubuntu get there software from Debian.  We are the equivalent 
to Debian.  The big difference is that we are totally non-free in the 
sense that no repositories that are under the control of Fedora have 
non-free software.  That is a bold statement and one that deserves credit.

Fedora takes opensource software and improves it and takes it to another 
level.  Make no mistake if Fedora didn't exist the world would be worse 
off.  While Fedora can go down the path of offering non-free software I 
think I would be disheartened by this action and to me Fedora would lose 
what it stands for.

Fedora is making significant contributions to the opensource community 
in ways that should be advertised a lot more.  I for one have a lot of 
respect for the devs that contribute and while there are problems the 
dev's work hard and with little respect or thanks from the community.

The other fact is people say that well most of the devs are employed.  I 
didn't know Rahul or Jesse's job entailed working 7 days a week late at 
night all the time.  These guy's go above and beyond what the average 
person does such is their love for the distribution.  I was talking 
about it the other day I would hate having a job in the opensource 
industry because I would probably lose my family because I would work on 
it at work and then head home and work on it again.  My family would 
hate me. (I suck at time management)

Above all your criticism is welcome but your opinions should be tempered 
with respect for the people that give you a product that is FREE and 
they (the devs) strive hard to improve it.  While it may not be perfect 
they are doing the best that they can and helping them improve it is 
more helpful than saying what you product sucks I'm going to Livna.

Every new kernel I test out the wireless iwl3945 driver to see if its 
improved on my laptop.  It hasn't got the range as what the ipw3945 
driver does however I'm hopeful that it's fixed in F8.  The reason I 
test it is so I can offer feedback to the devs who strive hard to fix 
the issues.  Spend a bit of time on the fedora-devel list to see how 
active they all are and you might understand why I support this distro 
so much.  I have tested a heap of different versions of linux but 
overall I have stuck with Fedora since Fedora Core 1 because it was 
noticeable that overall the people cared about what they did.  It was 
like a badge of honour that they put out a quality product.

Thanks

Marc

[Chitlesh GOORAH]

On 10/15/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
>  The fact that Ubuntu has bigger numbers is due in part to the fact
> that
>  it is easier to install than Fedora although that is changing. 
Haha this is funny. I know many ubuntu/kubuntu users with more than 5
unofficial repositories. Is this simple ???

Please define a time when it was "simple".
Before FC1 ?

Chitlesh
-- 
http://clunixchit.blogspot.com

[Marc Wiriadisastra]

On Mon, 2007-10-15 at 22:25 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
>  On 10/15/07, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote:
>  > The fact that Ubuntu has bigger numbers is due in part to the fact that
>  > it is easier to install than Fedora although that is changing.
>  
>  Haha this is funny. I know many ubuntu/kubuntu users with more than 5
>  unofficial repositories. Is this simple ???
>  
>  Please define a time when it was "simple".
>  Before FC1 ?
>  
>  Chitlesh
>  -- 
>  http://clunixchit.blogspot.com
>   
It is simple Chitlesh in the sense that you can install ubuntu from
windows.  Someone puts in the CD and it sets up the installation of
linux.

The non-free stuff is out of the box.  Generally makes life easier.

The 5 unofficial repositories I've only heard of 1 thats not to say that
there aren't more but those users are a rarity I think.  I can setup 4
extra repositories in Fedora as well but I would be a rarity.

Marc

Recent Activities

[Jim Nanney]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm cross-posting this from the Ambassadors list as it pertains greatly
to marketing as well.  Let me preface with the following:

My expectations are simply to raise awareness about the choices that are
available to small business and I highlight myself as an example.  All
too often, many small/home based businesses jump in head first into
their known specialty, forgoing the research about FOSS creating in my
opinion a downward spiral for their business.  In particular Fedora is
ripe for small business due to its complete and "infinite" freedom.  The
uneducated purchase of software not suited to help sustain the business,
but rather lock the business to a single vendor, presents ongoing
problems later on in the business lifespan causing its own fair share of
hassles.  I hope to supply many "Would Be" entrepreneurs with the
knowledge they need to make an informed decision about their true IT
needs prior to startup.  I think an informed decision is the best
decision, and while I may be chided for saying so, even when that
decision is a decision not to use Fedora.  The right tool for a job is
very important, however, buying and using the only tool you know of,
does not make it the right tool.  Read more in my ramblings below about
all this.

As for the book I discussed below, I realized too late that I did not
write the name of the book, but the title is "Linux Bible 2008".  I
strongly encourage all of you to purchase this book, as I have found
Chris' writings to be invaluable prior to this.

Thanks,

- --Jim

- --------------
All,

Last Friday, Chris Negus (of Fedora Linux Bible 6, 7, Linux Toys, Linux
Toys 2, fame, and many, many more) interviewed me about my company and
my use of open source and in particular Fedora for my small business.
Expected press date of the book is in January of 2008.  It was a
pleasure to talk to him about the usefulness of completely "Free"
software to a small business and home based businesses.  And in "Free" I
am more describing the unencumbered software, free of patent issues,
free of vendor lock-in, and of course free to modify and distribute.   I
spoke about the need for more small businesses to realize the huge
benefits of free software at length with him. I was told a complete
section would be devoted to use cases and a couple of pages specifically
about my business and its open source only devotion.

Small business really is an overlooked aspect from my point of view and
this needs more attention.  The average startup company must spend a
minimum of $5000 in just software to get a small business running.  And
in this initial purchase, a small business locks themselves into single
vendor, proprietary solutions, that would require hundreds of man hours
of work to change to an Open Source solution.

Truly a small business can save lots of money using free software, not
only in cost of the software, but in cost of not being locked to a
single vendor.  This is information that *needs* to be available to
those about to start a business, so that they can make an informed
decision about what is best for their company.

This may only be my personal perception, but it seems lots of focus and
attention is spent on showcasing large business benefiting from the
switch to open source, but truly small business can benefit more
percentage wise from making that decision upfront.  The latter of which
does not seem to to be highlighted in articles or media.

As for other Ambassador activities, this evening I hosted the South
Mississippi Linux Users Group meeting and gave a presentation on using
graphics packages under Fedora (specifically the Gimp and Inkscape) to
create web graphics, and distributed around 10 DVDs and Live CDs to
members.  While probably not a big thing to most of you, our LUG
membership has dwindled to meetings of 2 or 3 people on some occasions.
 Tonight was the largest LUG meeting we've seen since pre Katrina days.

Thanks for reading my ramblings and I hope the meat of what I am saying
makes sense,

- --Jim
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFHFGJu3GRPSy3vDJMRAiWFAKCpm+V9R4fz6tQ0asTLif9IaiKX4wCfVpDC
> 9aWFntXRSVh2bdCzmqp6wC8=
> =bfyC
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El lun, 15-10-2007 a las 19:15 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra escribió:

>  >   
>  Do you seriously think that the only reason people install Fedora is 
>  because of Livna.   
I didn't say that. Things are not just white or black, despite some
people immediately tend to it. Things in life have usually a good load
of complexity (specially if we're talking about human systems).
Sarcastic expressions are a good way to manifest itself. Therefore, you
should accept the part of true that all them contain (supposing you are
interested in knowing truths..).

>  That thought is ludicrous Livna is an addon repository that supports
> non-free software.   
Obviously..
:-)
The average end user, after installing a O.S.like Fedora, if that was
successfully, then the first thing he's much probably going to do will
be.. going for "those things" that make that core/robust system even
better, since all them turn the system into something prepared to the
common custom (Flash player, Java, graphics drivers, most popular audio
and video codecs and decoders, players, MS TrueType core fonts, etc...).
Just facts: what you want to do with them will be a issue entirely of
yours..

>  While not degrading what 
>  they do since some contribute to Fedora as a whole.  They do not create 
>  the distribution at all.  The majority of the distribution is created by 
>  people who work for RedHat (I think) a lot also from the community.
>   
Obviously..


>  The fact that Ubuntu has bigger numbers is due in part to the fact
> that 
>  it is easier to install than Fedora although that is changing.   
Not at all. You're completely wrong. Neither Ubuntu is easier to install
than Fedora nor Ubuntu has bigger number of users for that particular
reason.
Please, don't fall into the self-delusion. There are several,powerful
reasons to explain why Ubuntu is so much successful, unlike Fedora.
Thinking that fact is due to a _supposed_ easier installation is almost
a (bad) myth. It's simply false.
Both of them are equally "easy-to-install" for someone who is trying to
install a O.S. with some common sense. Particularly, I couldn't say
about any greater difficulty in one of them against the another.
Again, I remember to you (and everyone who is reading this) that most of
the people that use computers don't install O.S.'s, ...neither in a
short while nor never into his/her whole life! ..and that doesn't
depends on how much easy or difficult would be the process. People
usually buy computers with some O.S. already installed and ready for
use. Hence the importance of news where we can read that somewhat
manufacturer is going to sell X computers with X O.S. pre-installed on
it... (Here again, Ubuntu and others like Suse are growing for that via,
but that's not the issue now..).


>  They 
>  also offer non-free software as default.  I'm not to sure about 
>  PCLinuxOS but they are making a charge.  One thing that Fedora does 
>  which is similar in nature to Debian is that 'we' are the base for other 
>  distro's.  Ubuntu get there software from Debian.  We are the equivalent 
>  to Debian. 
That's not correct in strict sense. According with your comparison,
where do you put Red Hat products? That's not make sense..

>   The big difference is that we are totally non-free in the 
>  sense that no repositories that are under the control of Fedora have 
>  non-free software.  That is a bold statement and one that deserves credit.
>   
To lean on the existence or absence of non-free bytes accessible
directly or indirectly.. in order to marking differences is simply an
hypocritical attitude. And a big mistake facing to the possible
audience, IMO. People isn't into those tiny shades.. After all, I've
already told you what they're going to do into the next step...
 

>  Fedora takes opensource software and improves it and takes it to
> another 
>  level.  Make no mistake if Fedora didn't exist the world would be worse 
>  off.  While Fedora can go down the path of offering non-free software I 
>  think I would be disheartened by this action and to me Fedora would lose 
>  what it stands for.
>   
That's your feeling, no more no less. Even we could accept that you're
right, but reality is what is. Nature experience shows us that there are
no rules without (sometimes tons of) exceptions. Usually the mere
survive goes through knowing and to apply that, being able to be
flexible. However, proceeding so much strictly in most of the situations
(black or white, etc..) would probably take people who think in that way
to more-slave situations instead of another more really free.
I suppose there are lots of feelings and personal reasons about why
someone in particular chooses Fedora. Yours are clear according with you
said before, but I doubt what would be _the reason_ for most of the
Fedora-users... (It's a matter of opinion.. you always can make a survey
in the main fedora list to clear up..

>  
>  Above all your criticism is welcome but your opinions should be tempered 
>  with respect for the people that give you a product that is FREE and 
>  they (the devs) strive hard to improve it.  
I've repeated this point many times along the thread, please re-read
them because one thing is being respectful (truly) and another one, very
different, is being in silence without possibility of telling opinions.
The last one would be curiously, in my opinion.., not being really
respectful with the work made from someone.
I'm a person that doesn't make opinions about those things that doesn't
care him. 
Fortunately, I come from a free culture, from a free country. Criticism
is essential for make improvements into something; submissive behaviours
just lead to the incline and the general impoverishment.
I don't think that because of the mere reason that some product is free
(gratis), that must to escape it from opinions (critics). Also, I don't
know much people that uses Linux (I mean the non-pay Linux distros...)
just because it is free (gratis).. People who choose Linux (as a
personal decision, those folks in particular) value much more other
things apart from price zero, e.g. power, security, reliability,
versatility, justice (fair), etc. (those things that maybe they can't
find in others O.S.) Do not forget that most of the Windows of the
planet are "price zero" indeed.. and who uses Linux is clearly avoiding
them despite all. 

>   While it may not be perfect 
>  they are doing the best that they can and helping them improve it is 
>  more helpful than saying what you product sucks I'm going to Livna.
>   
I didn't say that. Probably, you didn't read carefully. I like Fedora as
product (I don't love it as an enthusiastic, but it's OK..). I use
Fedora. That's my main O.S. at home. Since I'm not an I.T. student, nor
an IT engineer, where I suppose they are encouraged to use UNIX/Linux
during its formation, I think that choosing these flavours truly freely,
also it's very commendable. I came to Linux with RH9 (yes, Red Hat 9,
the last free (gratis) from this brand). Then, since I have none
enterprise at home, etc...me, such as many many people into similar
circumstances.., got into a new flavour called Fedora, being then this
maintained by Red Hat, IIRC.. On the other hand, _I do not use any other
than Linux (nor I have another O.S. installed)_ ever, since 2001. How
many people (inside the Linux universe) can say the same? You maybe?
So man, believe me when I tell you I know where I am. I've not an I.T.
University degree, but I have enough experience in live to have strong
opinions about all things that I care. I'm a Sciences' man (PhD and
Bachelor's degree). I know where I am, and about things either that I
like them or I don't like.. I say my opinion, clearly and roundly if
necessary, and sometimes with humour, sometimes with sarcams, sometimes
acidly,... and that doesn't have to mean absence of respect (at least
what I understand about it..)

>  Every new kernel I test out the wireless iwl3945 driver to see if its
>
>  improved on my laptop.  It hasn't got the range as what the ipw3945 
>  driver does however I'm hopeful that it's fixed in F8.  The reason I 
>  test it is so I can offer feedback to the devs who strive hard to fix 
>  the issues.  Spend a bit of time on the fedora-devel list to see how 
>  active they all are and you might understand why I support this distro 
>  so much.   
Marc, I try to have a decent personal life.. :-)
No, seriously.. Being realistic, a devel-list, even just lurking, would
surpass to me at all. 
On the other hand, that's a proof of your high energy! Admirable, please
don't close your mind (otherwise you would be going from that sublime
status to a fanatic one, who knows..)

>  I have tested a heap of different versions of linux but 
>  overall I have stuck with Fedora since Fedora Core 1 because it was 
>  noticeable that overall the people cared about what they did.  It was 
>  like a badge of honour that they put out a quality product. 
I agree with you, the core of Fedora is a very good product indeed (e.g.
improved wireless support in the last two numbers, RH kernels that
support most of the upcoming new hardware, etc...).
But IMHO there are many things around it that they aren't being so
good.. I tried to evidence them here along the past posts in this list.
I won't to repeat me again. 


>  
>  Thanks
>  
>  Marc
>   
Take care,

Daniel

[Devrim GÜNDÜZ]

Hi,

On Sun, 2007-10-14 at 23:33 +0200, M Daniel R Magarzo wrote:
>  E.g., what most people mostly love from Fedora is the Livna
>  repository.  
Livna has been the only repository that broke my Fedora installation
with the mplayer (and related) packages it has.
-- 
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 18:59 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH escribió:
>  On 10/5/07, Greg DeKoenigsberg <hidden> wrote:
>  >
>  > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  > It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think?
>  
>  Sounds good, but isn't primarily for fedora.
>  Freedom is a Feature. Having lots of "F" does point to Fedora. But
>  other linux distributions provide "freedom" too.
>   
I agree with you.


>  The slogan of Fedora should be related to "what makes fedora so
> unique".
>   
Nobody knows. It sounds hard, but sadly..

The best approach IMO would be of a laboratory of Red Hat Enterprise
product. That explains its speedy life cicle. Therefore, according with
it, Fedora is not targeted for _desktop_ users, that is.. common end
users; it's for folks that want the latest in I.T. (hence, tech users...
that is... really a very minority). 
That's not what I would like personally, but that's what is at the
moment.



>  The proposed slogan needs to be rephrased!
>  perhaps: "New Features for your Freedom."
>   
I don't like it too much, but better that "Freedom is a Feature" without
doubt!!


>  regards,
>  Chitlesh
>  -- 
>  http://clunixchit.blogspot.com
>   

Daniel

[Brian Pepple]

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  
>  Max and I gave a Fedora talk at the Triangle Linux Users Group not too 
>  long ago.  Luis Villa was in attendance as well, and in the audience 
>  participation segment of the talk, Luis slipped this gem in.
>  
>  It's been rolling around in my head ever since.  What do you folks think? 
I like it.

/B
-- 
Brian Pepple <bpepple(a)fedoraproject.org&gt;

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrianPepple
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E
BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B  CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E

[Karsten Wade]

On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
What's funny is, just the other day, I came up with two in the middle of
writing something:  "Fedora means freedom" and "Fedora is freedom."
Anyway, similar sentiment but a different kind of depth.

I like this one, too. :)

- Karsten
-- 
Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr.
Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com
Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org
gpg key : AD0E0C41

[Nicolas Mailhot]

Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
> > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  
>  What's funny is, just the other day, I came up with two in the middle of
>  writing something:  "Fedora means freedom" and "Fedora is freedom."
>  Anyway, similar sentiment but a different kind of depth.
>  
>  I like this one, too. :) 
Yours are better — jargon-free and translatable

-- 
Nicolas Mailhot

[M Daniel R Magarzo]

El vie, 05-10-2007 a las 12:35 -0700, Karsten Wade escribió:
>  On Fri, 2007-10-05 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>  > What do people think of this as "The Slogan" of Fedora?
>  
>  What's funny is, just the other day, I came up with two in the middle of
>  writing something:  "Fedora means freedom" and "Fedora is freedom."

"OpenSUSE means freedom" (too..)
"Debian is freedom" (Actually, was the first..)
"Ubuntu is freedom" (too, why not?)
"Gentoo means freedom" (even more freedom.., each user of a system
builds each owns packages..)
"Slack is freedom" (too, I suppose..)
Etc...


and... if NOT, tell all them why not if asking!. I COULDN'T. 
Do you understand me? ;-)




>  Anyway, similar sentiment but a different kind of depth.
>   
Yeah, more deepness...


>  I like this one, too. :)
>  
>  - Karsten
>  --  

Daniel