I sent this over to the docs list and then realized that's probably not the right place :)
Cheers
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
So I took a couple hours last night/this morning to create a screen cast of cheese and its usage. I think its pretty good.
http://herlo.fedorapeople.org/screencasts/cheese-final.ogg (9.4MB) ~4.75minutes
The only issue I saw with istanbul, was that when I'd sometimes launch an application (cheese, or epiphany to show the cheese website) the audio would get garbled a little or a lot during the presentation. I am not sure if this is really a bug, or some sort of config error on my part.
Cheers,
Clint
2008/6/9 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
The only issue I saw with istanbul, was that when I'd sometimes launch an application (cheese, or epiphany to show the cheese website) the audio would get garbled a little or a lot during the presentation. I am not sure if this is really a bug, or some sort of config error on my part.
Istanbul is a very shallow layer on top of gstreamer. All the encoding magic is done via a gstreamer pipeline which I believe istanbul reports to the cmdline and you can reuse with gst-launch. If you can reproduce the audio glitches with the gst pipeline using gst-launch instead of istanbul its probably a gst bug or some sort of glitch due to cpu spiking disrupting the audio encoding.
But luckily its easy to replace an existing audio track with a new track. I'll update the screencasting wiki page this evening with the audio replacement shell script that works with gst 0.10.
-jef
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
But luckily its easy to replace an existing audio track with a new track. I'll update the screencasting wiki page this evening with the audio replacement shell script that works with gst 0.10.
Done,
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ScreenCasting
has an updated version of fedora-av-splice.sh which works with gst-lauch 0.10 as provided in Fedora 8 and 9.
With this you can merge an audio file encoded in a format gst recognizes and a theora video creating a new theora video with vorbis encoded audio making use of the new audio track.
I've tested it locally with wavfiles and theora videos.
-jef
2008/6/9 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
I sent this over to the docs list and then realized that's probably not the right place :)
So I've watched it, and I love it. Too bad cheese and istanbul don't sync up better when recording or we'd have a very clever way to do a picture in picture video to add sign language 'voice over' to videos. But sadly I don't think we have out-of-the box video editing tools which can scale and overlay video feeds like that. We might be able to do that sort of simple video overlay directly through gstreamer pipeline manipulation but right now that is beyond me. I'd need to reach into the gstreamer guru community and extract knowledge from them in small doses.
I'll make a promise. If people make the commitment to generate end-user Fedora video content like screencast tutorials on a regular basis, I'll make the effort to find gstreamer video manipulation expertise to add to the the Fedora community to help generate higher production value content over time.
-jef
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 10:05 PM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
2008/6/9 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
I sent this over to the docs list and then realized that's probably not
the
right place :)
So I've watched it, and I love it. Too bad cheese and istanbul don't sync up better when recording or we'd have a very clever way to do a picture in picture video to add sign language 'voice over' to videos. But sadly I don't think we have out-of-the box video editing tools which can scale and overlay video feeds like that. We might be able to do that sort of simple video overlay directly through gstreamer pipeline manipulation but right now that is beyond me. I'd need to reach into the gstreamer guru community and extract knowledge from them in small doses.
I'll make a promise. If people make the commitment to generate end-user Fedora video content like screencast tutorials on a regular basis, I'll make the effort to find gstreamer video manipulation expertise to add to the the Fedora community to help generate higher production value content over time.
-jef
-- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
Jeff,
Thanks for the kind words. I think it was rather fun to do this and I'd like to do more! I can say that I'll take the commands you recommend and see if I can't figure out what the problem is so we can get it fixed wherever its happening.
I look forward to getting these kinds of videos out everywhere. In fact, I was talking with my employer, Guru Labs, about doing some more videos in a more system administration nature. For instance, a simple video on how to do LVM and RAID together using both GUI and text tools. Probably a bit longer and more in-depth, but still fun.
Thanks again Jeff...
Cheers,
Clint
2008/6/9 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
I look forward to getting these kinds of videos out everywhere. In fact, I was talking with my employer, Guru Labs, about doing some more videos in a more system administration nature. For instance, a simple video on how to do LVM and RAID together using both GUI and text tools. Probably a bit longer and more in-depth, but still fun.
Can guru labs provide some measure of hosting for videos? We don't have a location identified for hosting and if they are willing to support your video fetish, then we can link from gurulabs for videos you produce, especially longer segments. If you are going to make several videos fo significant length I'm not sure fedorapeople can accommodate them all. Try to to aim for 5 or 10 minute segments which can be strung together for now. For longer footage will need to attempt to use a torrent seed through miro i think... but we aren't there yet.
We also need to decided on what license is appropriate for anything we put on our "official" Fedora Miro channel. I'd like people to be able to cut and mix video as liberally as possible while still giving credit to the original video authors.
I think it would even be appropriate to have a credit screen for your employer at the end of videos you make if guru labs makes this sort of thing a part of your job. We'll need so general guidelines in terms of the length of time for credits i think..but we'll figure something out. I don't want full blown commercials as credits, I think we can limit credits to text on a black background no longer than 30 seconds in total and feel comfortable with it for now, followed at the very end with a license statement. But I want to give credit where credit is due. And if you are getting paid to produce content that is valuable to the Fedora community and are gifting it to us, I think its fair to give your employer credit in the video production credits.
First things first, lets get a few more videos up on the page and get a miro feed up that we can test.
-jef
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
2008/6/9 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
I look forward to getting these kinds of videos out everywhere. In fact,
I
was talking with my employer, Guru Labs, about doing some more videos in
a
more system administration nature. For instance, a simple video on how to do LVM and RAID together using both GUI and text tools. Probably a bit longer and more in-depth, but still fun.
Can guru labs provide some measure of hosting for videos? We don't have a location identified for hosting and if they are willing to support your video fetish, then we can link from gurulabs for videos you produce, especially longer segments. If you are going to make several videos fo significant length I'm not sure fedorapeople can accommodate them all. Try to to aim for 5 or 10 minute segments which can be strung together for now. For longer footage will need to attempt to use a torrent seed through miro i think... but we aren't there yet.
That's the idea. I've not confirmed it all with them yet, but they are interested in this idea. They want the videos on their site so they get the hits and the traffic as well. I was thinking it might be a good compromise to have links on the fedoraproject.org wiki (or marketing materials) that redirected them to a gurulabs page with the video they could play. What do you think?
We also need to decided on what license is appropriate for anything we put on our "official" Fedora Miro channel. I'd like people to be able to cut and mix video as liberally as possible while still giving credit to the original video authors.
Oh, right. As far as the Miro channel, I see your point about the phrasing above now. Uh, well I don't see a problem with getting GL or a local ISP to host possibly these videos, as long as credit is given to the hosting locations. What are the licensing options? I've never even looked into licensing video. If it were text, Open Publication License would work. Does that work for video?
I think it would even be appropriate to have a credit screen for your employer at the end of videos you make if guru labs makes this sort of thing a part of your job. We'll need so general guidelines in terms of the length of time for credits i think..but we'll figure something out. I don't want full blown commercials as credits, I think we can limit credits to text on a black background no longer than 30 seconds in total and feel comfortable with it for now, followed at the very end with a license statement. But I want to give credit where credit is due. And if you are getting paid to produce content that is valuable to the Fedora community and are gifting it to us, I think its fair to give your employer credit in the video production credits.
I think they'd go for a simple, 'Video hosting provided by Guru Labs (and they're web address)', along with text that explains we're a Linux training company or something. I'll talk with them about these details this week and see how/if they would like to seriously pursue this idea.
First things first, lets get a few more videos up on the page and get a miro feed up that we can test.
Tricky part is taking the time to do them, and to get others to take that time. However, I feel the time invested in these videos is worth the effort for the community as a whole. I feel there are people who learn well by reading and others who learn well kinesthetically. So lets get more people involved in videos.
Cheers,
Clint
2008/6/10 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
That's the idea. I've not confirmed it all with them yet, but they are interested in this idea. They want the videos on their site so they get the hits and the traffic as well. I was thinking it might be a good compromise to have links on the fedoraproject.org wiki (or marketing materials) that redirected them to a gurulabs page with the video they could play. What do you think?
To be quite honest. I simply do not care where the video is hosted. I care about generating content by and for the Fedora community, preferable using the tools that we can ship. The whole point is to stimulate further interest in unencumbered codecs and associated tools through the generation of content that is actually useful. The Fedora community needs to dogfood open video for its own purposes as part of a larger goal of seeing the video formats and tools broadly adopted. If we don't do it.. no one will.
Right now the only really effective tools we have for video distribution to get video into the hands of users in some organized way is the gstreamer backed miro available in Fedora 9. Flash based video simply embedded in a web browser just isn't going to cut it yet due to a lack of support in the native flash binary for ogg. The reliance on A/V in flash needs to be solved before we can make use of it in the context of the larger project offerings.
So instead we can produce a series of rss feeds aimed at Miro and encourage users to use miro to watch Fedora community videos. But Fedora doesn't have to host the videos, just like Fedora's planet doesn't host individual blogs. We can build a feed that points into guru labs or other hosting spaces on a video by video basis. I'm sure Red Hat Magazine will want to get in on the act too from time to time. Though if guru labs wants to gift some hosting space that the wider Fedora community can use, beyond what you need, to host tutorial vids or other utility videos I'm sure our infrastructure lead can talk to your employer about what a hosting commitment in this area can and should look like. I know Mike has put some thought into taking resource donations from outside entities.
Video content is quite new for us.
What are the licensing options? I've never even looked into licensing video. If it were text, Open Publication License would work. Does that work for video?
It's going to be one of the more liberal CC licenses, perhaps something as liberal as CC-BY-SA. I'm going to make an arbitrary decision for now that for the time being people experimenting with Fedora videos license under CC-BY-SA, with an understanding that if the acceptable licensing changes as part of on-going discussions the video creators are willing to relicense the works accordingly.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
I think they'd go for a simple, 'Video hosting provided by Guru Labs (and they're web address)', along with text that explains we're a Linux training company or something. I'll talk with them about these details this week and see how/if they would like to seriously pursue this idea.
We'll find a way to do something. We can probably just add a tagline in the miro description for each video noting a hosting credit on a case by case basis. We can just limit the tagline to some reasonable length as a general policy bound.
Tricky part is taking the time to do them, and to get others to take that time. However, I feel the time invested in these videos is worth the effort for the community as a whole. I feel there are people who learn well by reading and others who learn well kinesthetically. So lets get more people involved in videos.
We have to start somewhere. I think the real video ninjas are out there waiting to be discovered in the community. I think if we create a way for them to easily share 'useful' videos through something like miro, the right people will start stepping out of the userbase cloud as new contributors in this new area. Don't get me wrong, it's not going to be easy. People with real video editing experience are going to be frustrated by the limited nature of toolset we can ship. The editing tools we can provide are still rough. The more mature tools we can't touch because of their direct reliance on ffmpeg which I haven't figure out how to ship with the encumbered bits stripped out adequately yet. We need to find the 'right' people who have an interest in video and can impact the development of the gstreamer based tools that we can ship and help move development forward. But we have to do something to jumpstart the discussion around open media formats and shippable tools instead of spending all our times wringing our hands over our inability to support encumbered media formats. It's time we start producing our own open content, relevent to our own open community using our own open tools, the rest of the world be damned!
-jef
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Jeff Spaleta jspaleta@gmail.com wrote:
2008/6/10 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
That's the idea. I've not confirmed it all with them yet, but they are interested in this idea. They want the videos on their site so they get
the
hits and the traffic as well. I was thinking it might be a good compromise to have links on the fedoraproject.org wiki (or marketing materials) that redirected them to
a
gurulabs page with the video they could play. What do you think?
To be quite honest. I simply do not care where the video is hosted. I care about generating content by and for the Fedora community, preferable using the tools that we can ship. The whole point is to stimulate further interest in unencumbered codecs and associated tools through the generation of content that is actually useful. The Fedora community needs to dogfood open video for its own purposes as part of a larger goal of seeing the video formats and tools broadly adopted. If we don't do it.. no one will.
Agreed wholeheartedly...
Right now the only really effective tools we have for video
distribution to get video into the hands of users in some organized way is the gstreamer backed miro available in Fedora 9. Flash based video simply embedded in a web browser just isn't going to cut it yet due to a lack of support in the native flash binary for ogg. The reliance on A/V in flash needs to be solved before we can make use of it in the context of the larger project offerings.
I've not used Miro much, but I'll start playing with it this week.
So instead we can produce a series of rss feeds aimed at Miro and encourage users to use miro to watch Fedora community videos. But Fedora doesn't have to host the videos, just like Fedora's planet doesn't host individual blogs. We can build a feed that points into guru labs or other hosting spaces on a video by video basis. I'm sure Red Hat Magazine will want to get in on the act too from time to time. Though if guru labs wants to gift some hosting space that the wider Fedora community can use, beyond what you need, to host tutorial vids or other utility videos I'm sure our infrastructure lead can talk to your employer about what a hosting commitment in this area can and should look like. I know Mike has put some thought into taking resource donations from outside entities.
I think this is an excellent idea. I'll run that by them, but I think we could do a few at least to start with and see how it goes from there. Rss feeds seem like a good choice regarding linking to the actual videos. Let's start with one or two and see how many we can get into the stream.
Video content is quite new for us.
What are the licensing options? I've never even looked into licensing
video. If it were
text, Open Publication License would work. Does that work for video?
It's going to be one of the more liberal CC licenses, perhaps something as liberal as CC-BY-SA. I'm going to make an arbitrary decision for now that for the time being people experimenting with Fedora videos license under CC-BY-SA, with an understanding that if the acceptable licensing changes as part of on-going discussions the video creators are willing to relicense the works accordingly.
Sounds good to me, I know the CC licenses fairly well and this is a good choice IMO, though IANAL.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
I think they'd go for a simple, 'Video hosting provided by Guru Labs (and they're web address)', along with text that explains we're a Linux
training
company or something. I'll talk with them about these details this week and see how/if they
would
like to seriously pursue this idea.
We'll find a way to do something. We can probably just add a tagline in the miro description for each video noting a hosting credit on a case by case basis. We can just limit the tagline to some reasonable length as a general policy bound.
Sounds good, I like the idea of the tagline and hosting credit, I'll be that'll be enough. I'll see what they are willing to do. In the meantime, I'll come up with a list of a few topics we think we could get out in the next few months or so. I'm willing to try to get out one or two in the next month or so, maybe we should see how it goes with everyone else.
Tricky part is taking the time to do them, and to get others to take that time. However, I feel the time invested in these videos is worth the
effort
for the community as a whole. I feel there are people who learn well by reading and others who learn well kinesthetically. So lets get more people involved in videos.
We have to start somewhere. I think the real video ninjas are out there waiting to be discovered in the community. I think if we create a way for them to easily share 'useful' videos through something like miro, the right people will start stepping out of the userbase cloud as new contributors in this new area. Don't get me wrong, it's not going to be easy. People with real video editing experience are going to be frustrated by the limited nature of toolset we can ship. The editing tools we can provide are still rough. The more mature tools we can't touch because of their direct reliance on ffmpeg which I haven't figure out how to ship with the encumbered bits stripped out adequately yet. We need to find the 'right' people who have an interest in video and can impact the development of the gstreamer based tools that we can ship and help move development forward. But we have to do something to jumpstart the discussion around open media formats and shippable tools instead of spending all our times wringing our hands over our inability to support encumbered media formats. It's time we start producing our own open content, relevent to our own open community using our own open tools, the rest of the world be damned!
I agree, wholeheartedly. My current problem is the lack of knowledge I have about gstreamer, and any other free video editing tools. I've heard of fluendo, which I'm guessing is proprietary, and cheese with gstreamer. What else is out there that we can use to edit ogg/theora video, and how can we make it possible to get ogg support as a whole available to embed within a browser? I mean this shouldn't be something too difficult to put into epiphany, konqueror or firefox, should it?
Cheers,
Clint
2008/6/10 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
I agree, wholeheartedly. My current problem is the lack of knowledge I have about gstreamer, and any other free video editing tools. I've heard of fluendo, which I'm guessing is proprietary, and cheese with gstreamer. What else is out there that we can use to edit ogg/theora video, and how can we make it possible to get ogg support as a whole available to embed within a browser? I mean this shouldn't be something too difficult to put into epiphany, konqueror or firefox, should it?
For the time being stick with very simple video tasks that need very little video editting. if you can do it in one sitting with cheese or istanbul do it that way for now. We can also convert raw dv into compressed theora video as well out of the box if you want to work a dv camera. The pitivi application used just to convert dv to theora with no editting basically works. Though it's also possible to just create a simple shell script using gst pipelines to convert raw dv into theora, I should probably add that if someone else doesn't figure out how to do that first by adapting the audio splice script.
I think there is room to build out a series of cookie cutter pipeline scripts to do common tasks once we have a group of people want to seriously poke at what gst lets you do out of the box.. but we aren't there yet. For example all the video affects that cheese does should be applicable to gst pipelines to post-process video clips. I think gst even has a series of transitional affects like screen wipes and fades that we can access via pipelines... i think. I haven't figured out how to do it yet.
if you need to play with basic clip sequencing inside of an application interface you can attempt to use pitivi. My understanding there is a GSoC project related to pitivi this summer to spruce it up. 'We' should watch pitivi development very closely. Even if it doesn't change direction and turn into a pro-sumer video tool...as a light weight video sequencer and editor it may be enough for community generate content to keep content flowing for our needs. it just needs a little love to get there.
I can't stop you from reaching for the more mature editting software that is ffmpeg based and available in 3rd party repositories. if your employer needs to create higher production quality videos than what you can do with the in distro tools, then you are free to do so. I had looked at kino at one point, but it does everything as raw dv. I could have stripped out the ffmpeg exporters and some optional features and gotten it into Fedora using a gst based theora exporter. But since it doesn't handle mixed source content, its not necessarily worth the effort to do. You can get a fully functional kino from 3rd party repos that deal with ffmpeg. I don't expect people to really be able to collaborate by passing raw dv files as source material. We need to be able to work with lower quality content as source to get our feet wet with working with video collaboratively. Pitivi lets you mix theora and dv together as source material. Video purists will cringe at the concept of doing that..but I'm okay with it to keep from having the hosting burden of dealing with raw dv until we have a clearer idea wtf we really want to do with collaborative video production. If kino could use theora as source material and could be shipped in such a way that ffmpeg support could be optionally added via an addon package... I would continue to work on getting kino packaged in such a way that we could offer it out of the box. But I never identified a gstreamer module which let me convert back to raw dv to use as a theora importer in kino to convert theora to raw dv..which is what kino works with internally. Again video purist will cringe at the concept...but it is what it is. ffmpeg has the ability to do this lossy conversion, but for the life of me I can't find a way to get gst to do it.
I have no problems accepting appropriately licensed content in formets we support made with tools we can't ship. I understand that I have multiple competing goals for community generated video content. Dogfooding the open tools while producing high quality open content won't be achievable simultaneously for a while until the shippable tools get better. But I will make it a point to have a policy which highlight videos that are built solely using Fedora tools as the become available to encourage people to continue to dogfood and develop the tools. The landscape is not going to get better until we have an important reason to use video as a tool to help us achieve larger project goals.
-jef
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
2008/6/10 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
What are the licensing options? I've never even looked into licensing video. If it were text, Open Publication License would work. Does that work for video?
It's going to be one of the more liberal CC licenses, perhaps something as liberal as CC-BY-SA. I'm going to make an arbitrary decision for now that for the time being people experimenting with Fedora videos license under CC-BY-SA, with an understanding that if the acceptable licensing changes as part of on-going discussions the video creators are willing to relicense the works accordingly.
Count me as a supporter of licensing as CC-BY-SA: it encourage others to remix our videos and also allows us to include in our videos stuff made by other people and licensed as CC-BY-SA.
From all the CC licenses, it seems the only viable options are CC-BY and CC-BY-SA (the other, NC and ND are *not free*).
Using a CC license could work also as a marketing vehicle, licenses as OPL are largely unknown, when people hear about something released under such license will react like "whatever, that is *some* content released under *some* license", but using CC will create more buzz. Also, we can try a collaboration with ccLiveContent (is that project still alive?)
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Nicu Buculei nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro wrote:
Also, we can try a collaboration with ccLiveContent (is that project still alive?)
That potential future is in my head. I want to start with utility videos like tutorial screencasts and figure out how we want to make that utility content available. Once we get that in front of users and we start getting feedback, we can start talking about the generating and hosting of more expressive content.. entertainment and editorial material. And once we start generating expressive content we can try to work some of the better content into a ccLiveContent distribution or similar.
-jef
marketing@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Clint Savage -
Jef Spaleta -
Nicu Buculei